Robert Waterton m. Cecily Fleming, parents of Mrs. Lionel Welles

[joe...@gmail.com]

Wikipedia entry for Robert Waterton is showing him as the son of John Waterton and Joan Mauley, daughter of Peter/Piers Mauley.

It is citing the Oxford DNB (2004) as its source for most of the article.

Joan Mauley has quite an interesting list of ancestors that might be interesting to the legion number of Lionel Welles descendants if she is indeed an ancestor of his.

Has anyone reviewed the ODNB entry for Robert Waterton or could add some more details confirming or disproving such a link?

Joe C

[John Watson]

Here you go ...

Waterton, Robert (d. 1425), administrator, was probably born in the 1360s, the son of Richard Waterton of Lincolnshire, and his wife, Elizabeth Newmarch. Apparently the cousin of Sir Hugh Waterton, he followed him into Lancastrian service, but although prominent therein for over thirty years he was never knighted, and is usually described as an esquire. Retained from 1392 with an annual fee of £6 13s. 4d., he served Henry Bolingbroke as an esquire, accompanying him to the Baltic in 1392. Master forester of Pontefract from 1391, by 1399 he was steward and constable there, and also constable of Tickhill. In 1398 Bolingbroke granted him a second annuity, of 10 marks. Waterton remained in office following Richard II's confiscation of the Lancastrian estates, but was probably the first of Bolingbroke's retainers to meet Duke Henry at Ravenspur in June 1399, arriving at the head of 200 foresters.

Waterton was appointed master of the horse on 20 November 1399, and took part in embassies to Germany and Denmark in 1401-2. But it was primarily through seigneurial and regional administration that he exercised power and influence. His positions in the honours of Pontefract and Tickhill, in which he had been confirmed in 1399, made him a dominant figure in the West Riding of Yorkshire and in north Nottinghamshire. The grant to him on 28 November 1399 of the manor of Doubledyke in Gosberton, forfeited by Sir John Bussy, gave him a position in the parts of Holland as well.

In January 1400 Waterton was one of those responsible for the custody of Richard II in Pontefract Castle; four years later he forcefully denounced in parliament claims that the former king was still alive. When civil war broke out in 1403, Waterton helped to prevent the earl of Northumberland from joining forces with Henry Percy (Hotspur), and subsequently marched with the king against the earl, who had retreated to Newcastle. Sent to arrest Hotspur's widow and son, in August 1403 he received a life grant of the manor of Wallwickgrange in Northumberland, and lands at Fangfoss in Yorkshire; in 1409 this became a hereditary grant. In the spring of 1405 the king sent him with a message to the earl of Northumberland, who on 6 May seized and imprisoned Waterton at Warkworth; Northumberland's treason was subsequently dated from this event. Waterton himself was released in June, when his brother John took his place, and later received a life grant of the offices of steward and master forester of the Percy estates at Spofforth and Healaugh.

On 18 May 1407 Waterton was appointed chief steward of the north parts of the duchy of Lancaster during pleasure. In April 1408 he negotiated a prolongation of the truce in Guyenne and Picardy with French ambassadors, and in the same month was appointed to direct measures to restore order after the earl of Northumberland's final rebellion. He was sheriff of Lincolnshire in 1411-12. In 1409 Waterton witnessed Henry IV's will at Greenwich, and after 1413 acted as one of the king's executors. But although he remained in royal service under Henry V, he was probably less close to the new king, and lost his chief stewardship. Nevertheless he was an ambassador to France in 1414 and 1416, and from 1415 to 1423 had the custody of the young Duke Richard of York. From June 1417 he also had the keeping of the duke of Orléans at Pontefract; the two men appear to have become friends, and Waterton's wife and children received gifts of jewellery from Orléans. Henry V clearly felt that friendship was endangering security, and after a warning and an inquest had Orléans moved to Windsor, though Waterton was subsequently trusted with the keeping of other French prisoners. At the accession of Henry VI, Waterton was reappointed to his Pontefract and Tickhill offices, and in 1424 had temporary charge of the Scottish hostages for James I.

Throughout his career Waterton continued to acquire fees, and also accumulated considerable landed interests. In 1412 he and his wife received a hereditary grant of the former Percy manor of Healaugh from Queen Joan, but his principal estate was at Methley, where he rebuilt the manor house. He married three times. By 1398 he had married Joan (b. 1362), a coheir of the Everingham family and widow of the Yorkshire MP Sir William Elys, who brought Waterton manors in Yorkshire, north Nottinghamshire, and Lincolnshire. Between 1399 and 1408 he married Cicely Flemyng, from a knightly west Yorkshire family, with whom he had a son, Robert, who married Beatrice, daughter of John, Lord Clifford (d. 1422), and was MP for Yorkshire in 1435. His daughter Joan (or Cecilia), who married Leo (or Lionel) Welles, sixth Lord Welles, was most likely born of Waterton's second marriage. In 1422, following his second wife's death, Waterton married Margaret Clarel, widow of John Fitzwilliam, who outlived Waterton and by 1426 contracted a clandestine marriage to William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe.

The evidence for Waterton's religious outlook is ambiguous. A story told by Walsingham of Waterton's squire, who in 1406 insulted a preacher maintaining the cause of orthodoxy against a Lollard, as a result of which Waterton was obliged to do penance, albeit in private, may only indicate a fashionable anti-clericalism--in 1408 Waterton and his wife received a papal indult licensing them to have a portable altar. His dependants included a number of clerics, whose careers he advanced through the patronage at his disposal. In particular he was an early and important patron of Richard Flemming, later bishop of Lincoln, who may have been his second wife's brother. As junior proctor of Oxford University in 1407-8, Flemming included Waterton's arms in the copy of the university's statutes which he commissioned and subsequently presented for the use of his successors.

Waterton made his will on 10 January 1425, and died at Methley on 17 January following. His tomb, with contemporary alabaster effigies of himself and his second wife, survives in Methley church, in a chantry chapel towards whose foundation he bequeathed £200. His effigy suggests that he either bore or cultivated a resemblance to Henry IV. He was also depicted with his second wife in the glass (now destroyed) in three windows in Castleford church.

J. R. Whitehead, 'Waterton, Robert (d. 1425)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004; online edn, May 2006

Regards,

John

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 11, 2014 3:22:15 AM UTC-4, John Watson wrote:
> On Monday, 11 August 2014 05:24:24 UTC+1, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Wikipedia entry for Robert Waterton is showing him as the son of John Waterton and Joan Mauley, daughter of Peter/Piers Mauley.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It is citing the Oxford DNB (2004) as its source for most of the article.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Joan Mauley has quite an interesting list of ancestors that might be interesting to the legion number of Lionel Welles descendants if she is indeed an ancestor of his.
>
> >
>

>
> > Has anyone reviewed the ODNB entry for Robert Waterton or could add some more details confirming or disproving such a link?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Joe C
>
>
>
> Here you go ...
>
>
>

> Waterton, Robert (d. 1425), administrator, was probably born in the 1360s, the son of Richard Waterton of Lincolnshire, and his wife, Elizabeth Newmarch. <snip>

Thank you kindly. I have run across this post in the archives that discusses some of the contradictory sources here:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-01/1104880654

[waterton...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 11 August 2014 05:24:24 UTC+1, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

This asertion has been held by the Waterton family for generations and has never been subject to opposition by any genealogist of note.

Chev. David Waterton-Anderson KSG,OLJ.

[waterton...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 11 August 2014 05:24:24 UTC+1, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

John Whitehead's entry in the ODNB is incorrect. Robert Waterton married only once to Cecily Fleming (daughter of Sir Robert Fleming of Woodhall). His son by her, Sir Robert Waterton, married 1stly Joan Everingham (marrying 2ndly Margaret Clarrel)who in turn produced another son, Sir Robert Waterton who married 1stly Jane Meeres, and 2ndly, Beatrix Clifford. The dates involved cannot possibly squeeze all these marriages into one Robert Waterton.

Chev. David Waterton-Anderson KSG,OLJ.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Actually Robert Waterton, Esq. had the three marriages as stated by ODNB. There is no chronological problem whatsoever with these marriages.

Robert Waterton married (1st) before August 1398 Joan Everingham, daughter of William de Everingham, Knt., of Skinningrove, Yorkshire, by Alice, daughter of John de Grey, Knt., 3rd Lord Grey of Codnor. She was living 15 Sept. 1399. They had no issue.

He married (2nd) before 1409 Cecily Fleming, daughter of Robert Fleming, Knt. They had one son, Robert, Knt., and one daughter, Joan (or Jane) (wife of Lionel [or Leo] Welles, K.G., 6th Lord Welles).

He married (3rd) in 1422 Margaret Clarell, widow of John Fitzwilliam, Knt., of Sprotborough, Yorkshire (died 17 Sept. 1421), and daughter of Thomas Clarell, of Aldwark, Yorkshire, by Maud, daughter of Nicholas Montgomery, Knt. They had no issue.

Robert Waterton, Esq., died 17 Jan. 1424/5. He left a will dated 10 Jan. 1424/5.

ODNB did make two mistakes.

The author states that Robert Waterton's son and heir, Robert Waterton, "married Beatrice, daughter of John, Lord Clifford." Actually the younger Robert married Blanche, daughter of John, Lord Clifford.

The author also referred to Robert Waterton's daughter, Joan (or Jane), wife of Lionel Welles, as "Joan (or Cecilia)." There was some confusion in the past regarding her given name. However, her name was definitely Joan (or Jane), not Cecily. For evidence of her correct name, see Sheffield Archives: Bacon Frank MSS, BFM/379, Deed of partition dated 26 April 1487, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/3bb600f0-3b0e-419e-9cf0-80afc4111724

I might note that there is a brief biography of Robert Waterton, Esq., in the following source:

Reese, Royal Office of Master of the Horse (1976): 341.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:37:36 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> ODNB did make two mistakes.
> The author states that Robert Waterton's son and heir, Robert Waterton, "married Beatrice, daughter of John, Lord Clifford." Actually the younger Robert married Blanche, daughter of John, Lord Clifford.

'Blanche' Clifford?

According to the following July 1446 fine, the first name of the Clifford wife of Sir Robert Waterton was definitely 'Beatrice', not 'Blanche': "Lyon lord Welles and Richard his son, Thomas Meteham kt., Walter Calverlay and Richard Waterton, Esq., to Matilda countess of Cambridge, Henry earl of Northumberland, Henry his son and heir, Thomas lord Clifford and Westmoreland, Ralph lord Cromwell, Thomas Percy kt., John Clifford his son and heir and Thomas Harynton kt. Property: manors of Halghton, and Barley co. York, Wellem' co. Nottingham and Dowbildike co. Lincoln with all other properties formerly Robert Waterton's; the manor of Methley co. York with its appurtenances in Altofts, Poterton, Fangfose, Rothwell and Foxholes, subject to certain payments to Beatrice wife of Robert Waterton. The grantors 1. are to receive 50 marks per annum for the next 6 years. 2. will warrant the grantees against the abbot of kirkstall and his successors. Witnesses: John Talbot kt. son and heir of John earl of Shrewbury, Thomas Chaworth kt., John Portyngton, John Haryngton, William Scargill, William Mirfeld, Thomas Wombewell. 5 seal queues. Remains of three seals. Endorsed: Waterton Dobledike 11." [Lincolnshire Archives/Manuscripts of the Earl of Ancaster/2ANC3/A/17]

Another version of the above can be found on Chris Phillips's Abstracts of Feet of Fines website (CP 25/1/293/71, number 315):
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_293_71.shtml

She is also called Beatrice in the August 1446 will of her paternal aunt Maud (Clifford), countess of Cambridge, who is unlikely to have gotten the first name wrong, "Item lego Beatrici Watirton, consanguineae meae, unam crucem auream, quae quondam fuerat matris meae, et meum Primarium viride, et unum diamond, et meam optimam togam furruratam cum martes."

Cheers, -----Brad

[joe...@gmail.com]

*never*. I think that's a bit of a strong statement. The authors of the ODNB disagree with you, for one, naming Richard Waterton and Elizabeth Newmarch as his parents.

What evidence do you know of that corrects this error and makes him the son of Joan Mauley?

[Douglas Richardson]

Brad ~

You're quite correct. The name of the younger Robert Waterton's wife was Beatrice, not Blanche. Mea culpa.

There is a long article on the Clifford family in Yorkshire Archaelogical Journal, 18 (1905): 354-411. The children of John de Clifford, K.G., 7th Lord Clifford, are given on page 367, but unfortunately no daughter Beatrice is included in that list. However, two pages earlier on page 365, Beatrice Waterton is allegedly named as "niece" in the 1446 will of Lord Clifford's sister, Maud, Countess of Cambridge. The Clifford family article can be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=IrJDAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA367

As Brad has noted, an abstract of the will of Maud [Clifford], Countess of Cambridge, is published in Testamenta Eboracensia, 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 118-124. The abstract may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YoikpOFrHPgC&pg=PA118

The bequest to Beatrice Waterton on page 121 reads as follows:

"Item lego Beatrici Watirton, consanguineae meae, unam crucem auream, quae quondam fuerat matris meae, and meum Primarium viride, et unum diamond, et meam optimam togam furruratam cum martes."

Curiously, Beatrice Waterton is here called "kinswoman" by Countess Maud, not "niece" as alleged in the Clifford family article.

While I believe that Beatrice Waterton was in fact the daughter of John Clifford, K.G., 7th Lord Clifford, it would be good to see some additional evidence to support her parentage.

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

Whilst we are on this subject, have you come across any contemporary documents which show that Sir Robert Fleming was the father of Cecily, wife of Robert Waterton. I have been unable to find a single reference to him in any documents of this period. I am starting to think that he may be imaginary.

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 7:15:49 PM UTC-6, johnmw...@gmail.com wrote:

< Dear Douglas,
<
< Whilst we are on this subject, have you come across any contemporary <documents which show that Sir Robert Fleming was the father of Cecily, wife of <Robert Waterton. I have been unable to find a single reference to him in any <documents of this period. I am starting to think that he may be imaginary.
<
< Regards,
<
< John

Dear John ~

I have nothing immediately in my files on this problem.

I can note, however, that the ODNB biography of Robert Waterton states the following:

"His tomb, with contemporary alabaster effigies of himself and his second wife, survives in Methley church, in a chantry chapel towards whose foundation he bequeathed £200. His effigy suggests that he either bore or cultivated a resemblance to Henry IV. He was also depicted with his second wife in the glass (now destroyed) in three windows in Castleford church." END OF QUOTE.

Under normal circumstances, the Waterton and Fleming arms would have been placed at the tomb at Methley, and also in the glass windows now lost in the Castleford church.

Indeed an article on the Waterton family in Thoresby Miscellanea 5 (1909): 93 provides the following information on the windows at Castleford:

" ... Dodsworth's Notes (Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, x, 367) state that in 1620 the Parish Church of Castleford contained the following memorials; and in another window, a man as above, behind him a woman, kneeling, on her garment Waterton impaling Fleming, underneath written, 'Orate pro animabus Roberti Waterton et Cecilae uxoris ejus, &c. &c." END OF QUOTE.

The above article may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9yI5AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA93

On page 89 the author likewise states the following:

"... the effigies upon the cenotaph [in Methley] in the wall diving the chancel from the chapel, and which bears the arms of Waterton and Fleming, are those of the same Robert Waterton aned Cecelia Fleming, his wife."

The above mentioned impalement of the Waterton and Fleming arms on the Castleford windows and their inclusion at the Waterton tomb at Methley should be sufficient evidence to confirm that Cecily Waterton was in fact a Fleming.

On pages 83 and 84 of the same Waterton article cited above, the author suggests that Cecily Fleming was possibly a member of the Fleming family of Wath. He notes several associations between the Waterton and Fleming families, including a reference to a certain Robert Fleming, esquire, who is mentioned in a Methley deed dated 24 March 1419. Unfortunately the author provided no firm identification of the father of Cecily Waterton.

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

I have no doubt that Cecily was a Fleming, but I was not so sure that her father's name was Robert. However, since asking you this question, I have now come across a reference to a Robert Fleming who might possibly be her father.

4 kal May 1420, Indults to have a portable altar. Robert Flemyng, nobleman, of the diocese of York, and Marjory (Marierie) his wife.
Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 7: 1417-1431 (1906), 337.

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

The discovery catalogue includes a record (see below) which indicates that Sir Thomas Fleming, Knt., of York owed Robert Waterton, Esq., and Richard Fleming, clerk, the large sum of £500 in 1407. This debt is perhaps connected to the transfer of the advowson of Wath upon Dearne, Yorkshire from Sir Thomas Fleming to Robert Waterton and Richard Fleming, clerk, which took place the same year [see Fasti Parochiales (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. 107) (1943): 106].

In the second and third items below, it appears that in 1401 Sir Thomas Fleming, Knt., and his two sons, John and Reyner, and others owed the large sum of £1000 to Thomas Chandos, rector of the church of Wath upon Dearne, Yorkshire.

The fourth item below is a marriage settlement dated 1408/9 for Thomas Fleming, son and heir of Sir Thomas Fleming, to marry Isabel, daughter of John of Lancaster, Knt. I assume the groom's father is the same man as Sir Thomas Fleming, of Wath, but that might not be correct.

The fifth item below is a petition dated 1405 by Thomas Chaundos (Chandos), clerk, formerly parson of Wath, regarding an annuity payable to the said Chaundos, for which annuity Thomas Fleming, Knt. (patron of Wath) and others were bound by security for its payment. I assume this petition is connected to the matter involved in Items 2 and 3.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +

1. Reference: C 241/202/46

Description:

Debtor: Thomas Fleming, knight [of York]

Creditor: Robert Waterton, esquire, and Richard Fleming, clerk [of Yorks]

Amount: £500.

Before whom: Henry Wyman, Mayor of York; William del Booth, Clerk.

When taken: 04/12/1407

First term: 25/12/1407

Last term: 25/12/1407

Writ to: Sheriff of City of York

Sent by: John Bolton, Mayor of York; William del Booth, Clerk.

Endorsement: Civitatis Ebor'. Coram Justic' d'ni Regis de Banco in quindena s'te Trinitatis.
Date: 1410 Oct 22

+ + + + + + + + +

2. Reference: C 241/192/1

Description:

Debtor: Thomas Fleming, knight, John Fleming, his son and heir, Reyner Fleming, the son of Thomas, John de Clifton, Thomas de Clifton, William Bacon, John Cresswell, the son of Ivo de Wath, and Robert Deyne of Hemingfield {Hemelyngfield} [near Hoyland, Strafforth Wapentake, W.R.Yorks.].

Creditor: Thomas Chandos, rector of the church of Wath upon Dearne {Wath super Dyrne} [Strafforth Wapentake, W.R., Yorks.].

Amount: £1000.

Before whom: William Frost, Mayor of York; William le Chester, Clerk.

When taken: 30/06/1401

First term: 29/09/1401

Last term: 29/09/1401

Writ to: Sheriff of York, London,

Sent by: William Frost, Mayor of York; William de Chester, Clerk.

Endorsement: Ebor' London' Coram Justic' de Banco in mense Pasche.
Date: 1402 Aug 6

+ + + + + + + + +

3.Reference: C 241/192/2

Description:

Debtor: Thomas Fleming, knight, John Fleming, his son and heir, Thomas Fleming, Reyner Fleming, the son of Thomas Fleming, John de Clifton, Thomas de Clifton, William Bacon, John Cresse, William, the son of Ivo de Wath, and Robert Deyne of Hemingfield

Creditor: Thomas Chandos, rector of the church of Wath upon Dearne [Strafforth Wapentake, W.R., Yorks.].

Amount: £1000.

Before whom: ..... Mayor of York; ..... Clerk.

When taken: 30/06/1401

Sent by: The King to the Mayor of the City of York and the Clerk of Recognisances.

Endorsement: Coram d'no Rege in Cancellar' sua. The writ was delivered at York on 6 Aug.1402, and another certificate was sent to Chancery at Easter 1403.
Date: 1402 Apr 26

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

4. Reference: WD RY/BOX 92/73

Description:

Marriage Settlement, [given as 1408/9]


(1) Thomas Fleming, kt.


(2) John of Lancaster, kt.


Terms: Thomas, son and heir of (1) to take Isabel, daughter of (2) as wife, (1) to provide Thomas and Isabel a yearly rent of 10 marks issuing from the manor of Coniston; (2) to pay (1) 80 marks for the marriage, by £20 on the wedding day and 50 marks within two years next following.


[Seventeenth century copy translation]
Date: 1408/9

+ + + + + + + + +

5. Reference: SC 8/102/5067

Description: Petitioners: Thomas Chaundos (Chandos), clerk, formerly parson of Wath.
Name(s): Chaundos (Chandos), Thomas
Addressees: Council.
Occupation: clerk; parson of Wath

Nature of request: The petitioner asks that writs be sent to Fleming and Toneton under the great seal that they appear before the king on pain of £1000, or that another remedy be found for their wrongful detention and non-payment of a certain annuity by maintenance and menaces contrary to the law. And also to have the authority of the present parliament to execute a statute merchant, and beyond this to compel payment of the annuity in times to come and arrears for times past. He states that Fleming and others are bound by surety for an annuity of ... marks due to the petitioner during his lifetime, and each is bound in a statute merchant of £150. For non-payment the petitioner sought execution of the same statute merchant, and then Fleming (patron of the said church) planned through a conspiracy between himself and Toneton to exclude the petitioner from the annuity, as from the execution of the statute. Toneton made such menaces etc., in this regard that the petitioner was unable to secure the execution of the statute as the law demands. They also laboured the men of the land and officers of the sheriff that none should execute the statute.
Nature of endorsement: Let writs be sent to the sheriff of York [such that] Fleming and Toneton be before king and council at Westminster at the next quindene of Easter to answer to the complaint written within, and that the same council has the authority of parliament to make right according to their discretion.
Places mentioned: Wath, [North Riding of Yorkshire]; Pontefract, [West Riding of Yorkshire]; Westminster.
People mentioned: Thomas Fleming, knight; Thomas Toneton, Master of St Nicholas [Church] in Pontefract.
Note: A note on the guard suggests? 1405 as the date for this petition..
Date: [1405]

[joe...@gmail.com]

Title: Deeds relating to CLIFTON
Reference: KM/100
Description:
Mutual obligation between John Flemmynge son of Thos. Flemmynge knight, and Roger Banastre, each in the sum of £200, to observe the award of Thomas Bishop of Durham and Robert Waterton, Esq., in a dispute concerning the Manor of Clyfton and other matters. John Hepworth of Dalton and Will Langlay of Dalton are mentioned as sureties for John Flemyng and John Kent of Wakefeld and John Horbery of Wakefeld for Roger Banastre.
Date: 18 Jan 1415

[joe...@gmail.com]

She is also called Beatrix in the will of Robert Fleming leaving to "Beatrici Waterton"

https://books.google.com/books?id=9oIJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA229#v=onepage&q&f=false

[joe...@gmail.com]

More details on the 1407 transaction:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lkb0Bf1CrtgC&pg=PA145#v=onepage&q&f=false

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

The 1407 transaction concerning the transfer of the advowson of Wath-upon-Dearne from Sir Thomas Fleming to Robert Waterton makes it more likely, to my mind at least, that Sir Thomas Fleming was the father of Cecily, wife of Robert Waterton. The 1407 transaction may have been part of their marriage settlement.

Cecily and Robert Waterton were married before March 1408, when Robert de Watyrton, donsel, nobleman, and Cecily his wife, noblewoman, of the diocese of York had a papal indult for a portable altar.
Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 6: 1404-1415 (1904), 145.

Their eldest son Robert Waterton was born about 1409, as he was aged 16 at the i.p.m of his father in 1425. I would estimate that Cecily was born about 1390.

The other matter concerning Wath and Thomas Chandos is explained by this entry in the papal registers:
2 ides December 1401, To Thomas Chaundos, canon of Lincoln. Indult to him -- who, when over sixty years of age and rector of Wat[h], in the diocese of York, being unable by reason of his age and debility to govern it, was induced by Thomas Flemmynge, knight, the patron, and by certain others, to resign the church, whose value is perhaps 100 marks, in order that it might be collated to another and that a yearly rent or pension of 80 marks might be assigned to himself for life; and who has learned that to do so was unlawful -- freely and lawfully to receive such life rent or pension.
Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 5: 1398-1404 (1904), 479.

It looks like Sir Thomas Fleming promised a pension to Thomas Chandos to induce him to leave the church of Wath, but then refused to pay him.

Best regards,

John

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas,

More on the family of Fleming of Wath-upon-Dearn, Yorkshire and Croston, Lancashire.

An outline pedigree:

John Fleming (d. ca. 1347) = Isabel
I
Thomas Fleming (d. ca 1380) = Katherine
I
Sir Thomas Fleming (d. ca. 1418)
I
John Fleming (d. bef. 1436)

The ODNB entry for Richard Fleming, bishop of Lincoln (d. 25 Jan 1431), states that he was the brother of Cecily, wife of Robert Waterton. He was born in the early 1380's (said to be age 18 in 1403). If Richard and Cecily were of the family of Fleming of Wath, then it is likely that they were the children of Sir Thomas Fleming.

Best regards,

John

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

John:

What are the sources for this outline pedigree?

I notice that the ODNB bio for for Robert Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln, says that he "belonged to the Fleming family of Wath upon Dearne, Yorkshire, although the precise affiliation is unclear."

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 2:15:18 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 7:15:49 PM UTC-6, johnmw...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Indeed an article on the Waterton family in Thoresby Miscellanea 5 (1909): 93 provides the following information on the windows at Castleford:
>
> " ... Dodsworth's Notes (Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, x, 367) state that in 1620 the Parish Church of Castleford contained the following memorials; and in another window, a man as above, behind him a woman, kneeling, on her garment Waterton impaling Fleming, underneath written, 'Orate pro animabus Roberti Waterton et Cecilae uxoris ejus, &c. &c." END OF QUOTE.
>
> The above article may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=9yI5AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA93
>

A small correction to the citation above: the Waterton article in the 1909 issue of the Thresby Spciety Miscellanea is in vol. 15, not vol. 5.

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Joe,

The sources are:

'Townships: Croston', in A History of the County of Lancaster: Volume 6, ed. William Farrer and J Brownbill (London, 1911), pp. 91-96
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol6/pp91-96
Joseph Foster, ed., The Visitation of Yorkshire in 1584/5 and 1612 (1875), 358.
Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire, vol. 2 (1831), 62-67.
West Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale, Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall
Lancashire Record Office, Parker Family of Browsholme
Lancashire Record Office, Hesketh of Rufford
Calendar of Patent Rolls
Calendar of Close Rolls

Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland

A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903)

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 3:25:52 PM UTC-6, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

> A small correction to the citation above: the Waterton article in the 1909 issue of the Thresby Spciety Miscellanea is in vol. 15, not vol. 5.

The correct citation is Miscellany 5 (Thoresby Soc. 15) (1909).

It's the fifth volume of Miscellany and the 15th volume of the society's publication.

DR

[Douglas Richardson]

Correction:

The correct citation is Miscellanea 5 (Thoresby Soc. 15) (1909).

It's the fifth volume of "Miscellanea" and the 15th volume of the society's publication.

DR

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Regarding the identification of the maiden name and parentage of Beatrice, wife of the younger Robert Waterton, since my last post I've found additional evidence which supports Beatrice's placement as a Clifford.

Wheater, Some Historic Mansions of Yorkshire 1 (1888): 149-152 discusses the various arms found at the tomb of Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] and his 2nd wife, Cecily Fleming, in the Waterton chapel of the church of Methley, Yorkshire. This discussion may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89096313986;view=1up;seq=7

The Waterton arms are given as: Barry of six ermine and gules, three crescents sable.

The Fleming arms are given as: Azure two bars argent on a chief of the last, three lozenges gules, a mullet for difference.

The mullet for difference suggests that Cecily Fleming's father was the third son of his father. If correct, it would seemingly rule out John Watson's belief that Cecily Fleming's father was possibly Sir Thomas Fleming, of Wath upon Dearne, Yorkshire. Unless I am mistaken, Sir Thomas Fleming of Wath was the son and heir of his father, so no difference would be needed for his arms. But the mullet for difference might support the identification of Cecily's father being Robert Fleming, who, if he existed, was likely a younger brother of Sir Thomas Fleming.

On the opposite side of Waterton chapel at Methley, Yorkshire is the tomb of Lionel Welles, 6th Lord Welles, and his 1st wife, Joan (or Jane) Waterton [Wheater calls her Cecily]. Various arms are placed at this tomb including Welles, Waterton, Clifford, and Fleming, as well as two other shields, Welles impaling Waterton and Waterton impaling Clifford.

The author Mr. Wheater was evidently unaware of the marriage of Robert Waterton the younger and Beatrice Clifford. He sidesteps the impalement of Waterton and Clifford, and suggests the Clifford arms were placed at the tomb merely due to friendship. Obviously Mr. Wheater is quite wrong.

The impalement of Waterton and Clifford arms in the Waterton chapel is good evidence that Beatrice, wife of Robert Waterton the younger, was indeed a Clifford.

Regarding the correct parentage of Cecily Fleming, 2nd wife of Robert Waterton the elder, the editor of Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 230, states that "Glover" had previously identified Cecily Fleming as "the daughter and heiress of Robert Fleming of Woodhall, in Methley." Glover is surely Robert Glover, Somerset Herald of Arms, who died in 1588. While Glover is late, he has a good reputation as a genealogist.

Elsewhere, I note that Antiquarian Reportory 4 (1784): 124-125 states the following:

"Sir Robert Waterton, of Waterton and Methley, married Cecily, daughter and heir of Robert Fleming, of Woodhall in Stanley, Esquire ..." END OF QUOTE.

As we can see, Antiquarian Reportory places Cecily Fleming's father, Robert Fleming, at Woodhall in Stanley, Yorkshire, not Woodhall in Methley, Yorkshire. It cites a source to support its identification of Woodhall as being in the parish of Stanley:

""... as the following inquisition in the Chapel of the Rolls will shew, ' Robertus Waterton Miles, ten. Manerium de Woodhall in Stanley juxta Wakefeild de Dom. Rege in Capite, et alienavit dict. Maner. Lionello Dom. Welles et al. Robert est filius et heres. Esc. Anno 21 H. VI.'"

21 H. VI is 1441-1442. The above record states that Robert Waterton Knight held the manor of Woodhall in Stanley by Wakefield [Yorkshire] as a tenant in chief of the king and that he had alienated the said manor to Lionel Lord Welles and others. As to the statement "Robert is son and heir," we are not told if this is a reference to Sir Robert Waterton himself or his son.

Be that as it may, if the record has been correctly transcribed, then it would appear that the manor of Woodhall was actually in Stanley, Yorkshire not Methley, Yorkshire. Its history should be traceable if it was held directly of the king.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The following petition from the Discovery catalogue indicates that Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] had the manor of Woodhall (in Methley), Yorkshire.

As noted in an earlier post, Antiquarian Reportory 4 (1784): 124-125 gives evidence that his son, Sir Robert Waterton, also held the manor of Woodhall (in Stanley), Yorkshire.

Unless the manor of Woodhall is located in two parishes, it would appear that the Watertons had two manors named Woodhall, one in Methley and one in Stanley. The next step is to prove which of the two manors named Woodhall was held by Robert Waterton the elder's father-in-law, Robert Fleming. Glover allegedly states Robert Fleming held Woodhall in the parish of Methley.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

Reference: SC 8/310/15458

Description: Petitioners: Robert Waterton, esquire, Thomas de Toueton (Towton), clerk, Nicholas Colne and William Baroweby (Barrowby).
Name(s): Waterton; de Toueton (Towton); Colne; Baroweby (Barrowby), Robert; Thomas; Nicholas; William
Addressees: King.
Occupation: clerk
Nature of request: The petitioners request licence to crenellate their manor of Woodhall in Methley.
Nature of endorsement: [None]
Places mentioned: Woodhall in Methley, [West Riding of Yorkshire]; Methley, [West Riding of Yorkshire].
Note: The requested licence to crenellate was issued on 8 January 1410 (CPR 1408-13, p.232).
Date: [1410]

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

What is your basis for saying that Stanley was actually a parish, rather than simply a village or locality in another parish? The GENUKI gazetteer identifies Stanley as a locality in the parish of Wakefield, which appears to be adjacent to the parish of Methley (which contains the manor of Methley).

The often-cited 1931 article on the Waterton family by J. W. Walker (vol. 30 of the Yorkshire Archaeological Journal) has a segment on the history of the particular Woodhall manor associated with the families of Fleming and Waterton. It identifies the Woodhall manor is being in Stanley and "is now the site of Hatfeild [sic] Hall". According to Walker, Woodhall came into the possesion of of the Flemings of Wath and passed to the Watertons by the marriage of Robert Waterton and Cecily Fleming. FWIW this narrative agrees with a modern account of the history of the village of Stanley, and specifically Hatfeild Hall, available here:
http://www.stanleyhistoryonline.com/Hatfeild-Hall.html

Walker in 1931 goes on to say that Robert Waterton acquired the manor of Methley separately, AFTER his marriage, probably in 1408/9. The Methley manor belonged to the Hospital of St. Nicholas of Pontefract. In exchange for the Methley manor, Waterton gave the hospital (among other considerations) the advowson of Wath, which he had acquired from Sir Thomas Fleming only shortly before, in the 1407 transaction discussed earlier in this thread.

The likely answer to your confusion about where Woodhall was located is probably not that there were TWO Woodhall manors, but rather that there was one - perhaps overlapping the boundary between two parishes but more likely erroneously assigned to Methley parish by some sources due to Methley's later association with the Watertons. In any event, it's a very minor point.

BTW although the Antiquarian Reportory which you cite above may have been lucky enough to accurately place Woodhall in Stanley (a pretty minor detail), it's certainly not a good source for the Waterton family, as it totally mangles their pedigree. It says that Robert Waterton and Cecily Fleming had a son SIR Robert who was master of the horse to Henry IV. ODNB makes it clear that it was the elder Robert who was a knight and master of horse to the king. It's chronologically impossible for the younger Robert to hold this position for King Henry. More seriously, it says that the heirs of the younger Robert were his FIVE sisters. The first of these is Jane, wife of Lord Welles, which is correct, but the remaining four listed in this source are the the women known to be the daughters of Jane Waterton Welles. Given the magnitude of this error, it seems hardly responsible to cite this source to support even such a minor point as the location of Woodhall.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

It has been claimed that Cecily Fleming, wife of Robert Waterton the elder [died 1425] was the daughter and heiress of Robert Fleming, Esquire, of Woodhall.

However, a list of the quarterings of their Dymoke descendants includes the arms of Welles and Waterton but not Fleming [Reference: Lodge, Scrivelsby, the Home of the Champions (1894): 151].

It may be that the Fleming arms were omitted from the quarterings, or that Cecily Fleming was not an heiress.

Further study is needed of the quarterings emplyed by the various families that are descend from Cecily (Fleming) Waterton, namely Dymoke, Hoo, Willoughby, and Launde families. If the Fleming arms are excluded the other family quarterings, then the likelihood is good that Cecily Fleming was not an heiress.

Cecily (Fleming) Waterton is believed to be the sister of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431]. See, for example, Harvey, English in Rome, 1362-1420 (2004): 177-178, available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=GS6Oh6Gp66wC&pg=PA177

Dodsworth's Yorkshire notes: The Wapentake of Agbriggg (1884): 27 gives evidence that Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], was born in Crofton, Yorkshire, a village on the east side of Wakefield, Yorkshire. See the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=IrkHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA27

Dodsworth specifically states the the church of Crofton, Yorkshire was removed to a different spot in the parish and was "builded by & at the onely charges of Richard Fleming Bp. of Lincolne who was (born) in the same towne at the howse where Mr. Lister now dwelleth." END OF QUOTE.

If so, Crofton would presumably be the home parish of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton. And if Dodsworth's notes are correct, then Richard Fleming was born in a house, not at a manor.

Dodsworth records that over the south porch of the church in stone "are cutt 2 barrs & 3 fusills in chiefe, on the first barr, a mullett [Fleming]."

Elsewhere I find that Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] presented Richard Fleming [the future Bishop] to the church of Gosberton, Lincolnshire in 1404. See Kaye, Brief History of the Church & Parish of Gosberton (1897): 35, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zfIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA35

Kaye likewise indicates that Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] presented Thomas Toneton/Towton to the church of Gosberton, Lincolnshire in 1402 and 1410.

Harvey, English in Rome, 1362-1420 (2004): 177-178 cited above indicates that Thomas Towton was master of the hospital of St. Nicholas, Pontefract and rector of Wath-upon-Dearne, Yorkshire. Harvey cites as her source: Storey, Clergy and Common Law, p. 395, fn 314 for Pontefract; Arch. Seld. B 23, f. 128v which calls Thomas Towton "consanguineus" [kinsman] of Robert Waterton.

Summing up the above findings, it seems rather likely that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress and that her home parish was Crofton, Yorkshire. Evidence has been cited which indicates that Thomas Toneton/Towton was a kinsman of Cecily's husband, Robert Waterton, Esq.

Finally I see that Volume 1 of the Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln was recently published in 2009 by the Canterbury and York Society. If someone has access to this and later volumes, perhaps they can check them for references to the Bishop's family.

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 4:10:32 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> It has been claimed that Cecily Fleming, wife of Robert Waterton the elder [died 1425] was the daughter and heiress of Robert Fleming, Esquire, of Woodhall.
>

[snip]

>
> Finally I see that Volume 1 of the Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln was recently published in 2009 by the Canterbury and York Society. If someone has access to this and later volumes, perhaps they can check them for references to the Bishop's family.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The "claim" that Cecily Fleming Waterton was the "daughter and heiress" of Robert Waterton of Woodhall was made earlier in this thread and was implied to have been originated from either Robert Glover, Somerset Herald of Arms, or Rev. James Raine, editor of Testamenta Eboracensia. I guess even those who "have a good reputation as a genealogist" can make mistakes. :-)

From information on Worldcat and the website of the Canterbury and York Society, it appears that the book published in 2009 may be volume 2 of The Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln. Volume 1 was published in 1984 and is available widely in libraries - the later volume is pretty scarce in libraries.

[joe...@gmail.com]

https://books.google.com/books?id=IrkHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA28

"of the reliefe of Robert Flemynge for one bovate of land in Crofton.." 1411/2

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

1415, Extract from the Wakefield Manor Rolls; John Flemmyng of Crofton, alias Magister John de Bradelay, is dead and Robert Flemmyng, his son and heir, pays 12d. heriot for 3 acres.
A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 48.

1418, Extract from the Wakefield Manor Rolls; Robt. Flemmynge pays 12d. heriot on death of his father John Flemmynge of Croston alias Magister John de Bradelay for 1 acre 1 rood.
A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 54.

Regards,
John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

There is some interesting biographical material on Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], the alleged brother of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton, in the book, Watanabe, Nicholas of Cusa - A Companion to his Life and his Times (2011): 125-129.

On page 129, the author discusses Richard Fleming's nephew, Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln:

"Robert Fleming, Richard's nephew and a resident in University College, Oxford, from 1430 to 1443, matriculated at Cologne in 1444 and then went to Padua. Once in Italy, he, like Grey, was attracted to humanism and, after obtaining a degree at Padua, moved to Ferrara to study under Guarino de Verona (1374-1460)."

The editor of Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 230 states in a footnote that Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln, was brother to the above mentioned Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln [died 1483]. However, Twemlow, Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters 7 (1906): 497 proves that Bishop Richard Fleming was uncle to Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln. This record reads as follows:

"Date: 13 Kal. Feb. 1427 [i.e., 20 Jan. 1427]. To Robert Flemmyng, clerk, of the diocese of York. Dispensation, at his own petition and that of Richard, bishop of Lincoln, whose nephew he is, after he, who is in his tenth year, has reached his twelfth year, to receive and hold any canonry and subdiaconal prebend." END OF QUOTE.

There is a helpful biography of Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln, in Lumb, Registers of the Parish Church of Methley (Thoresby Soc. 12) (1903): 134, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW0_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA134

Assuming that Cecily Fleming, wife of Robert Waterton, Esquire, was the sister of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], as well as the aunt of Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln [died 1483], it is inconceivable that Cecily Fleming was an heiress any time during her lifetime or any time near afterwards, as she had at least one male member of her family living until at least 1483.

A record concerning the estate of Robert Waterton, Esquire [died 1425] is found in Heriots, &c., on the Wakefield Manor Rolls published in Northern Genealogist 6 (1903): 59. The record reads as follows:

"1427. Stanley. Robert Waterton, esquire, is dead, and Robert his son and heir pays 18d. heriot."

The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044090345943;view=1up;seq=69

Given the above record and other evidence which proves that Robert Waterton, Esquire [died 1425] held property at Stanley, Yorkshire, the following Common Pleas record may be of interest:

In 1422 Simon Flemyng sued William Hobson, of Stanley, Yorkshire, husbandman, and four others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass [vi et armis] in Stanley, Yorkshire. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/647, image 246f available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no647/aCP40no647fronts/IMG_0246.htm].

[John Watson]

Dear Douglas,

Thanks for all of your additional input into the parents of Cecily Fleming.

Concerning the two different manors of Woodhall. I find this in M. I. Faull and S. A. Moorhouse, eds., West Yorkshire: An Archaeological Survey to A.D. 1500, vol. 2 (1981).
Page 522, Stanley Cum Wrenthorpe: Hatfield Hall. Wodehall is now represented by Hatfield Hall, the present building being constructed in 1598 and repaired in 1716 and 1768. Wodehalle is liable to confusion with other places of the same name, but especially with the sub-manor of Wodhall in Methley township, since Methley and Stanley townships share a common boundary.

Unfortunately there is no mention of Fleming or Waterton in the section on Stanley.

Regards,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I noted earlier this past week that a list of the quarterings of the Dymoke family included the arms of Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming. See Lodge, Scrivelsby, the Home of the Champions (1894): 151.

I've since located a list of the quarterings of the Copley family, which family is likewise descended from Cecily (Fleming) Waterton. As with the Dymoke quarterings, the Copley quarterings include the arms of Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming. See Surrey Archaeological Collections, 3 (1865): 362, available at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=vTUGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA362

It may be that the Fleming arms were carelessly omitted from both sets of the quarterings, or it may be that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress at all.

Since this is the second set of quarterings which has omitted the Fleming arms, it's looking more and more likely that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

This past week I posted heraldic quarterings for the Dymoke and Copley families, which families are lineal descendants and co-heirs of Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] and his wife, Cecily Fleming. Under normal circumstances, if Cecily Fleming was truly an heiress, or an heiress in her issue, the quarterings should have included the Fleming arms. They did not.

Below are quartering yet for another branch of Waterton-Fleming family, namely the Berkeley family, of Wymondham, Leicestershire. As with the Dymoke and Copley families, the quarterings include Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

"Berkeley, Wymondham, co. Leicester; Baronetcy 1611, extinct ...., quartering Hamlyn, Delalaunde, Welles, Engaine, and Waterton, Harl. MS. 6183, fo. 5." [Reference: Reference: Papworth Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of Arms ... Ordinary of British Armorials (1874): 427].

Archaeologia Cantiana 26 (1904): 326-327 gives a similar set of heraldic quarterings found at the tomb of Gabriel Livesey [died 1622] and his wife, Anne Sondes. Gabriel Livesey was the son of Robert Livesey, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Maurice Berkeley, Esq., of Wymondham, Leicestershire. Once again the quarterings contain Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

Lincolnshire Notes & Queries 18 or 19 (1924): 116 includes a description plate of brass containing quarterings for the Metham family, including Welles and Waterton again, but not Fleming.

Reports and Papers of the Architectural and Archaeological Societies of the Counties of Lincoln and Northampton 8 (1865-66): 11 provides a description of the various heraldic panels found at Spilsby, Lincolnshire at the tomb of Richard Bertie, Esq. [died 1582] and his wife, Katherine Willoughby, Duchess of Suffolk [died 1580]. Katherine Willoughby was a lineal descendant and one of the co-heirs of Robert Waterton, Esq., and his wife, Cecily Fleming. The various panels include various quarterings of the Willoughby family, including Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

So far I've located six sets of quarterings for different branches of descendants of Robert Waterton, Esq., and Cecily Fleming. All six quarterings include Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

I conclude on the basis of the heraldic evidence that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress as claimed by Robert Glover, Somerset Herald.

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 5:01:04 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 4:10:32 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~

> [snip]
> >
> > Finally I see that Volume 1 of the Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln was recently published in 2009 by the Canterbury and York Society. If someone has access to this and later volumes, perhaps they can check them for references to the Bishop's family.
> >
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>

> From information on Worldcat and the website of the Canterbury and York Society, it appears that the book published in 2009 may be volume 2 of The Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln. Volume 1 was published in 1984 and is available widely in libraries - the later volume is pretty scarce in libraries.

Update:

Unfortunately "The Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln" has no biographical information on the bishop and no mention of his family at all. The register was published by the Canterbury and York Society in two volumes - vol. 1 in 1984 and vol. 2 in 2009. Both volumes contain only transcriptions of the register together with some short introductory notes about the editorial methods used in preparing the volumes. Volume 1 has a short preface indicating that "it is hoped that the edition will be completed with two further volumes" and that "a fuller introduction will be held over to a later volume". Volume 2 does not contain that "full introduction" nor does it mention any future volume.

So...no luck here on information about the bishop or his family. Too bad...

[wjhonson]

What?
What sort of citation do you practice where you refer a specific *fact* to a FIFTEEN volume work? That is not a citation!

[freeb...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 11, 2014 at 12:24:24 AM UTC-4, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Wikipedia entry for Robert Waterton is showing him as the son of John Waterton and Joan Mauley, daughter of Peter/Piers Mauley.
>
> It is citing the Oxford DNB (2004) as its source for most of the article.
>
> Joan Mauley has quite an interesting list of ancestors that might be interesting to the legion number of Lionel Welles descendants if she is indeed an ancestor of his.
>
> Has anyone reviewed the ODNB entry for Robert Waterton or could add some more details confirming or disproving such a link?
>
> Joe C

hello

anyone working on (or interested?) in the CRESSWELLs? roger, robert, henry?

i am attempting to sort out the connection betw nichola (who is perhaps the 1st wife of piers peter II de maulin; the second being Joan de BRUS (1st wife) Born: abt. 1211 Died: abt. 1243)
any assistance appreciated

sincerely
james waddell
sudbury ontario

[John Watson]

Dear James,

For the de Mauley family I would advise you to read Complete Peerage, vol. 8, pp. 554-571. This can be downloaded as a pdf file (100 MB) from here:
https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE3867196&from=fhd

Regards,
John

[waterton...@gmail.com]

[waterton...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 8 May 2015 23:43:17 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:

Dear Douglas,

The basis of Glovers assertion that Cecily was the heiress of her father, lies in the simple fact that her only surviving kinsman, the Dean of Lincoln, was still alive when Leo Welles's sons were executed, leaving only daughters to pass on the quarters that were established at that time, hence all the quartering schedules you quote fail to include Fleming. Once Richard Fleming (who was a religious and therefore had no descendants) died, she in her progeny became heiress of her father.