MANDEVILLE
PEhle...@aol.com
Carta Sureties?
Geoffrey de Mandeville 1053-1085
William de Mandeville 1062-1130
Maud de Mandeville 1138-?
Geoffrey FitzPiers 1162-1213 married Beatrix Saye (I need her ancestry
too)
Maud FitzGeoffrey 1177-1236 married Henry de Bohun Magna Carta Surety
Thanks in advance.
Regards
Phyllis in Louisiana
Suzanne Doig
>Would someone comment on the following line of descent from one of the Magna
>Carta Sureties?
>Geoffrey de Mandeville 1053-1085
>William de Mandeville 1062-1130
>Maud de Mandeville 1138-?
Maud was *NOT* the daughter of William de Mandeville, and her
parentage is unknown. The idea that she is a daughter of William de
Mandeville comes from a slightly unclear table published in the
Complete Peerage, which seems to show Maud as a daughter of William
until you look closely at the lines :-)
There IS a Mandeville descent through Beatrice de Say.
>Geoffrey FitzPiers 1162-1213 married Beatrix Saye (I need her ancestry
>too)
Source: CP V:113 ff (Essex)
1 Beatrice de SAY, died before 19 Apr 1197
2 William de SAY of Kimbolton, died before 1 Aug 1177
4 William de SAY, died Aug 1144
5 Beatrice de MANDEVILLE, born about 1105, died 19 April, by 1197
10 William de MANDEVILLE, died about 1130
11 Margaret de RIE
[It is far from certain that Margaret was William's wife and
Geoffrey's mother]
20 Geoffrey de MANDEVILLE, Constable of the Tower of London, died
after 1086
21 Athelaise
22 Euon de RIE, Dapifer of Colchester
[Margaret may have been his niece rather than his daughter]
23 Rohese DE CLARE
44 Hubert de RIE
46 Richard fitz Gilbert, 1st Earl of Clare, born 1035, died about
1090/1091
47 Rohese GIFFARD
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -
Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4038/index.html
U...@aol.com
smd49@*!*its.canterbury.ac.nz writes:
>
> 1 Beatrice de SAY, died before 19 Apr 1197
> 2 William de SAY of Kimbolton, died before 1 Aug 1177
> 4 William de SAY, died Aug 1144
> 5 Beatrice de MANDEVILLE, born about 1105, died 19 April, by 1197
> 10 William de MANDEVILLE, died about 1130
> 11 Margaret de RIE
> [It is far from certain that Margaret was William's wife and
> Geoffrey's mother]
>
Was she Beatrice's mother??
Dave
Tim Powys-Lybbe
PEhle...@aol.com wrote:
> Would someone comment on the following line of descent from one of the Magna
> Carta Sureties?
> Geoffrey de Mandeville 1053-1085
> William de Mandeville 1062-1130
> Maud de Mandeville 1138-?
> Geoffrey FitzPiers 1162-1213 married Beatrix Saye (I need her ancestry
> too)
> Maud FitzGeoffrey 1177-1236 married Henry de Bohun Magna Carta Surety
> Thanks in advance.
> Regards
> Phyllis in Louisiana
>
Just to extend the Mandevilles a tad, I have the following from the
Essex visitation of 1558 for the Barringtons:
Sir Galfrey Mandeville, Earl of Essex
|
|
Sir William Mandeville, Kt
|
|
Sir William Mandeville, Kt
|
|
Anne Mandevill = Sir Humphrey Barrington, Kt
dau and heir to
Sir William
Does anyone know of any evidence to corroborate this?
(No dates of course. Heralds weren't interested in those.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
South Farm:
A logical entity with a real counterpart but no address bar this.
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<T...@southfrm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <c3fe3fc....@aol.com>
> PEhle...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Would someone comment on the following line of descent from one of the Magna
>> Carta Sureties?
>> Geoffrey de Mandeville 1053-1085
>> William de Mandeville 1062-1130
>> Maud de Mandeville 1138-?
m Piers de Lutegarshale? [ca 1132 - aft 8 May 1198 Winchester]
>> Geoffrey FitzPiers 1162-1213 married Beatrix Saye (I need her ancestry
>> too)
How about this:
1 Beatrice de Saye
2 William de Saye
3 Aufrica of Scotland
6 William I of Scotland
7 <mistress>
?
>> Maud FitzGeoffrey 1177-1236 married Henry de Bohun Magna Carta Surety
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Regards
>> Phyllis in Louisiana
>>
>
>Just to extend the Mandevilles a tad, I have the following from the
>Essex visitation of 1558 for the Barringtons:
>
> Sir Galfrey Mandeville, Earl of Essex
> |
> |
> Sir William Mandeville, Kt
> |
> |
> Sir William Mandeville, Kt
> |
> |
> Anne Mandevill = Sir Humphrey Barrington, Kt
> dau and heir to
> Sir William
How do they tie in to the line above?
>
>Does anyone know of any evidence to corroborate this?
>
>(No dates of course. Heralds weren't interested in those.)
>
>--
>Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
>South Farm:
> A logical entity with a real counterpart but no address bar this.
Bryant Smith
Austin, Texas
Robert O'Connor
William I King of Scotland?
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
ED MANN
>
> What is your reference for the wife of William de Saye being a daughter of
> William I King of Scotland?
See BRF:198.
> How about this:
> 1 Beatrice de Saye
> 2 William de Saye
> 3 Aufrica of Scotland
> 6 William I of Scotland
> 7 <mistress>
> ?
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Just to extend the Mandevilles a tad, I have the following from the
> Essex visitation of 1558 for the Barringtons:
>
> Sir Galfrey Mandeville, Earl of Essex
> |
> |
> Sir William Mandeville, Kt
> |
> |
> Sir William Mandeville, Kt
> |
> |
> Anne Mandevill = Sir Humphrey Barrington, Kt
> dau and heir to
> Sir William
>
Not likely. Earl William, son of Earl Geoffrey d.s.p.(l.?) and the
family became extinct, except for the eldest son, who had been excluded
(and has been speculated by some to have been illegitimate). If the
elder "Sir William" is different than Earl William, he must have been
illegitimate, but I know of no such son of Geoffrey. The younger "Sir
William" likewise would have to be illegitimate, and I know of no such
bastard. Basically, it looks like the link to Earl Geoffrey is bogus,
or at least erroneous. As I said, there were descendants of his oldest
son, and there were also other Mandevilles of unclear descent who
claimed the Scottish thrown. These would have had to have been either
illegitimate, descended from the eldest son of Earl Geoffrey, descended
from a younger son of the founder in England, an earlier Geoffrey, or
entirely unrelated.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> How about this:
> 1 Beatrice de Saye
> 2 William de Saye
> 3 Aufrica of Scotland
> 6 William I of Scotland
> 7 <mistress>
> ?
This is certainly wrong, since such a descent would have made the the
family of Beatrice claimants to the scottish crown, which they were not.
taf
Brant Gibbard
wrote:
>What is your reference for the wife of William de Saye being a daughter of
>William I King of Scotland?
>
>
According to Caroline Bingham's biography of Robert the Bruce, p. 47,
and genealogical table, Roger de Mandeville had put forth a claim as a
Competitor for the Scottish throne by 3 Aug 1291, based on being a
great-great grandson of Aufrica (an illegitimate daughter of William I
The Lion) and William de Saye.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@inforamp.net
Toronto, Ont.
Todd A. Farmerie
This was a different William de Saye. Beatrice was the elder daughter
and coheiress of William, and thus her descendants should have been the
claimants. It is possible, I guess, that the husband of Aufrica was the
older William de Saye, who married Beatrice de Mandeville, with Aufrica
being an earlier or later wife, but I would have to check the chronology
to be certain of this. There were entirely unrelated Saye families at
this time (i.e. Ingelram de Say, whose daughter married into the Fitz
Alans, and the Saye family which gave rise to the Lords of Say) so there
is no particular reason to suspect that they were related to these
Sayes.
taf
John Carmi Parsons
competitors for the Scots crown in 1291, as set forth in tabular form in
William Croft Dickinson, *Scotland from the earliest times to 1603* (London-
Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson, 1961), p. 151. I believe this table is taken
directly from *The Scots Peerage* or some other publication of that era
that I have seen.
The table shows five OOW children of William the Lion, among them an Aufrica
(marriage not shown) who was mother of a William (no surname given), who was
father of a second Aufrica (no marriage shown), mother of an Agatha (no
marriage), mother of Roger Mandeville. As Roger Mandeville's claim was
reckoned through Aufrica I's son William, the descendants of any daughters of
Aufrica I would have come second to those of the son.
Aufrica I might well, then, have been the mother of Beatrice de Saye, but I'd
like to see some more contemporary evidence for that filiation as well as for
any connection between this Say(e) line and the better-known group.
John Parsons
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brant Gibbard wrote:
> On 20 Mar 1999 22:09:07 GMT, "Robert O'Connor" <roco...@es.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >What is your reference for the wife of William de Saye being a daughter of
> >William I King of Scotland?
> >
> >
>
> According to Caroline Bingham's biography of Robert the Bruce, p. 47,
> and genealogical table, Roger de Mandeville had put forth a claim as a
> Competitor for the Scottish throne by 3 Aug 1291, based on being a
> great-great grandson of Aufrica (an illegitimate daughter of William I
> The Lion) and William de Saye.
>
>
Suzanne Doig
Whoops, didn't notice that bit!
I'm not sure from my notes, as I didn't take too many details about
Beatrice from the CP Essex article. I presume that as the marriage to
Margaret de Rie is uncertain, the maternity of both Beatrice and her
brother Geoffrey must be considered to be in doubt.