Menteith of Kerse: a reexamination
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
Two items were noted today which together assist in resolving
some of the problems concerning the family of Menteith of Kerse.
The first is the pedigree of the Menteiths of Rusky and Kerse
published by William Fraser in 'The Red Book of Menteith'. Sir
William Menteith of Kerse (d. aft 16 May 1411) was known to have
had a wife named Elizabeth, she was named in a resignation
by Marjory Stirling (mother of William) at Scone, October 22,
1382 [1]. Fraser identifies her (without citing a source) as
'Elizabeth, daughter of Graham' [2].
The implication that this was likely a daughter of a member
of the Graham family of Montrose is interesting in itself, but
the second item both substantiates the identification, and the
placement of Elizabeth in the family of Graham. In the Mar
MSS. published by the Historical Manuscripts Commission, there
is the following record of a dispensation for the marriage of
William Menteith of Kerse (d. aft 1490):
' 1474, May 12. - Edinburgh. Dispensation by Patrick,
Archbishop of St. Andrew's and legate a latere, for the
marriage of William de Menteith, of the diocese of Dunblane,
and Euphemia Grahame, of the diocese of St. Andrew's, who
are related in the fourth and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Dated in the third year of Pope Sixtus IV., and the tenth year
of his own consecration. ' [3]
The ancestry of Euphemia Graham is (on her paternal side)
well-known, she being the daughter of Malise Graham, Earl of
Strathearn (later of Menteith) whose early career is known
largely due to its relationship to the assassination of James I
of Scotland in 1437. It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage never took
place. Euphemia is known to have married Sir William Stewart of
Dalswinton, and to have been alive in October 1495 [4].
Euphemia was a great-granddaughter of Sir Patrick Graham
of Kincardine-in-Menteith and Montrose (d. aft 6 May 1400).
Euphemia would have been related to a descendant of Sir Patrick's
siblings in the 4th degree, so it initially appears that
Elizabeth (Graham according to Fraser) would have been such a
sibling. The chronology certainly works, as Sir Patrick Graham
and William Menteith of Kerse were contemporaries:
A. Sir Patrick Graham and his first wife Matilda were married
by 24 August 1372. There was a charter of impignoration
by Angus Hawincross of that Ilk of part of the lands of
Boclair in favour of Sir Patrick of Graham, knight, son
and heir to David de Graham, Lord of Dundaff, and Matilda,
wife of the said Patrick, dated at the manor-place of
Mugdock on 24 August 1372 [5]. As stated above, Sir
Patrick died some time after 6 May 1400.
B. As stated above, William Menteith of Kerse was married
to his wife Elizabeth by 22 October 1382, and very likely
prior to that - his parents were married in or before
1356 [6].
The fact that the dispensation states that William Menteith
and Euphemia Graham were related ' in the fourth and fourth
degrees of consanguinity ' is of importance, as it means that
if a sibling of Sir Patrick Graham was the source of the
relationship being dispensed, she (or he) would have to have
been a great-grandmother (or -father) of William Menteith. The
pedigree given by Fraser shows Elizabeth Graham as the grandmother
of William, which does not quite 'fill the bill'.
The resolution now appears to have been an erroneous
conflation of two William Menteiths into one, by Fraser and
others. From John Menteith of Kerse to (and including) William
(fl. 1482) the fiancee of Euphemia Graham, there are a total of
four Williams, not three:
1. Sir William Menteith was evidently born before 22 Oct 1361.
He was evidently of age (i.e. aged 21 or more) when he
received lands of Kerse & c. on the resignation of his
mother on 22 Oct 1382 [7].
2. William Menteith, the son of Sir William Menteith and
Elizabeth Graham, was evidently born before 16 May 1390,
as he was of age (i.e. age 21 or more) when he had a
charter from Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany, re-granting
the lands resigned by his father, dated 16 May 1411 [8].
3. William Menteith of Kerse, the husband of Helen Livingston,
and father of William Menteith of Kerse (d. aft 1490) and
Elizabeth Menteith, wife of John Menteith of Stenhouse
(murdered 1483 or before), must have been the son of #2
above, and not the same individual. Likely born say 1410-
1420, he was the sheriff of Clackmannan whose heraldic seal
is found on one of the Mar charters, dated 17 Dec 1448 [9].
4. Sir William Menteith of Kerse, married to an earlier (and
unknown) wife and later dispensed to marry Euphemia
Graham in 1474, was likely born say 1435-1450. His career,
part of which centered around the murder of John Bruce of
Stenhouse and Airth (ca. 1483) and its consequences, is well
known. He resigned his lands in Alva before 24 May 1508, on
which date King James IV re-granted these lands to his
grandson and heir, William (of course) Menteith [10].
The correction of these generations agrees more reasonably
with the chronology of this family, and also agrees with the
relationship between William Menteith and Euphemia Graham as
stated in the 1474 dispensation. The relationship between these
parties now appears as follows:
Sir David de Graham = Helen of Strathearn
d. aft 4 Apr 1373 I
________________________I_________
I I
Sir Patrick = 2) Egidia Elizabeth = William
Graham I Stewart Graham I Menteith
_______I I of Kerse
I I
Sir Patrick = Euphemia William
Graham I Stewart, C of Menteith
d. 10 Aug 1412 I Strathearn of Kerse
I _______I
I I
Malise Graham Sir William = Helen
E of Strathearn Menteith I Livingston
(later of Menteith) of Kerse I
I I
I________ ___________I
I I
Euphemia = William Menteith
Graham of Kerse
I will post a more detailed pedigree of Menteith of Kerse in
a followup. Should anyone of the list have additional
documentation or comment, please advise.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Albert M. Sterling, The Sterling Genealogy (New York:
Grafton Press, 1909), p. 29.
[2] William Fraser, The Red Book of Menteith (Edinburgh: 1880),
I:461.
[3] Historical Manuscripts Commission, Report on the Manuscripts
of the Earl of Mar and Kellie: Preserved at Alloa House, N.B.,
(London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office, by Ben
Johnson and Company, York, 1904), p. 8.
[4] Fraser, ibid., I:301 [cites Acta Dominorum Concilii, p. 401].
[5] SP VI:214, cites Lennox Book, i. 162.
[6] Sterling, ibid., p. 29, concering Sir John Menteith and
his wife Marjory (or Mary) Stirling:
' David II, by charter dated January 25, in the twenty-eighth
year of his reign (1357), restored Marjory and John to her
offices and estates, to be held by them and the heirs of
their marriage, whom failing, the lawful heirs of Marjory,
in the same way as John de Strevylyn, her father, held
the same.'
[7] Sterling, ibid.
[8] Fraser, I:461, identifies the son of Sir William Menteith
and Elizabeth Graham as
"William Menteith of Kerse. Who had, on his father's
resignation on 16th May 1411, a charter from Robert, Duke
of Albany, Regent of Scotland, of the baronies of Wester
Kerse and Alva."
[9] John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical,
Collegiate, Burghal, Personal (Glasgow: printed by Robert
MacLehose & Coy., Limited at the University Press, 1940),
II:504. The text of this entry:
' MENTEITH, Sir William, knight, sheriff of Clackmannan.
A shield of arms couche: On a bend three buckles.
Crest: On a helmet with mantling and wreath, a swan with
wings elevated. Legend (l.c.): ..... Diam. 15/16 in.
Mar Ch., 17 Dec. 1448, p. 3. 10 - Cast. '
[10] Fraser, I:461.
* John P. Ravilious
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
Following is the promised pedigree (down to 1508 anyway) of
Menteith of Kerse. Any additional documentation, comment or
correction is welcome, as always.
Cheers,
John
1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: 1241[1]
Occ: seneschal and justiciar of Scotia
Father: Alan le Steward (-1204)
Spouse: B____ [possibly Bethoc]
Children: Alexander le Stewart (1214-1283)
John (-1249)
Walter (1219-<1296)
1.1 Walter le Steward
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 Apr 1296[7],[8],[1]
Birth: 1219[9]
Burial: Inchmahome priory, Menteith[10]
Occ: Earl of Mentieth
Earl of Menteith de jure uxoris
3rd son
' Walter le Senescallus ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[11]
'Hugh de Abyrnethine', received grant of £ 20 lands in Aberfoyle,
Menteith from Isabella, (deprived) countess of Menteith, before
Jan 1261/2 [Red Book of Menteith I:37, II:213, citing grant in
Douglas charter chest[12] ]
' Waltero senescallo ', witness (together with Alexander Comyn,
earl of Buchan and justiciar of Scotia, Patrick, earl of Dunbar,
Aymer de Maxwell the chamberlain, and Hugh de Abernethy) to a
charter of King Alexander III granting a yearly market 'at the
feast of St. John the Baptist, lasting for fifteen following
days' to the Burgh of Ayr, dated at Traquair, 12 Dec 1261
[Chart. Ayr pp. 18-19, No. 11[13]]
he was recognized as Earl of Menteith after the 12 Dec 1261 charter,
but before 19 Jan 1261/2:
' Walterus Senescallus, comes de Menthet ' renewed and confirmed
a grant of the church of Kilcolmanel in Kintyre to the abbey of
Paisley on that date [Red Book of Menteith II:216, citing
Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, p. 121[12] ]
fought at the Battle of Largs, 1263[9]
witness to the marriage contract of Margaret of Scotland and
King Eric of Norway, dated Roxburgh, 25 July 1281 [Cowan p. 94[9] ]
'Walterus Senescallus comes de Menethe ', together with his
sons Alexander and John, entered into a bond with Robert de
Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20
Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl
of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith
II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[12] ]
' Gauter de Menetehe ', one of the Earls of Scotland attending
the Parliament at Brigham, which confirmed the Treaty of
Salisbury with England, 14 Mar 1289/90 [Stevenson I:129-130,
No. XCII[14]]
supporter of Bruce the Competitor for the Scots crown, 1291
(Barrow p. 388)[7]:
'Walter, earl of Menteith', one of the auditors for the claim
of Bruce at Berwick, 2 June 1292 [Crawfurd p. 20[15] ]
' Meneteth (Meinteth), comes de, Walterus, (Wautier comte de
Meinteth). ' - swore allegiance to King Edward I at Berwick,
1291 [Ragman Roll[16] ]
' Terra Comitis de Menteth de Knapedal ', his lands in Knapdale
included in the Sheriffdom of Lorne under the ordinance of 1293
[Campbell p. 45[17]]
Spouse: Mary of Menteith
Death: bef 1286[12]
Father: Maelmure 'Og', Earl of Menteith (-1230)
Children: Alexander, Earl of Menteith (-ca1306)
Sir John (-ca1323)
1.1.1 Sir John de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1323
Occ: laird of Ruskie
of Ruskie
' Johannes ', together with his father and brother, entered
into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith and
others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare '
[Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs.
Scotland, i:22[12] ]
fought against the English, and captured either at the siege
of Dunbar (1296) or the campaign leading up to the siege:
order dated at Canterbury, 6 June 1297:
' To the sheriff of Nottingham. Whereas the king lately
ordered Walter de Gousill, late sheriff of that county, to
cause Edmund Comyn of Kilbride, John de Meneteth, knights,
Michael Miggel, Walter de Bosevill, William Curry and Robert
de Lecheham, esquires, prisoners lately taken in the castle
of Dumbar in Scotland and in the conflict there and
imprisoned in Notingham castle, to have their wages, to wit
each knight 4d. a day, each squire 3d. a day and 3d. a day
for each of their keepers, until otherwise ordered: the
king orders the sheriff to cause the prisoners and their
keepers to have the wages aforesaid. '
[CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:34[18]]
supporter of King Edward I of England in his claims over
Scotland: petitioner for the lands of the Earl of Lennox
[Barrow, p. 448[7]]
'Earl of Lennox' as designated by Edward I of England
captor of Sir William Wallace, 1305
record of his heraldic seal, dated ca. 1305:
' MENTEITH, Sir John, of Rusky, younger son of Walter Stewart,
fifth Earl of Menteith. This was probably the betrayer of
Wallace. He died c. A.D. 1325. A shield of arms: A fess
chequy with a label of five points in chief surmounted of a
bend charged with three [alerions]. Shield on the breast
of an eagle displayed with two heads. Legend (caps.):
SIGILL' IOHANNIS DE MENETET. Beaded borders.
Diam. 7/8 in. Laing, ii. 722. Record Off., c. 1305,
detached seal ll; Bain, ii. pl. i. fig. 11. Red Book
of Menteith, ii. 461, fig. 3. ' [Stevenson, II:503[19]]
received as returned loyal subject by Robert the Bruce -
attended the Scots Parliament at St. Andrews, March 1308/9
(Barrow p. 265)[7]
an envoy of King Robert, together with Sir Neil Campbell: had
a letter of safe conduct from King Edward II of England in
order to treat with Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, August
1309 [Campbell, I:68[17]]
' Sir John de Menteith ', witness [ together with Malcolm,
Earl of Lennox, Sir Neil Campbell - "Testibus Domino
Bernardo Cancellario nostro . Malcolmo Comite de Leuenox .
Johanne de Meneteth et Nigello Cambel militibus "] to
charter of King Robert I to William, thane of Cawdor,
dated at 'Lochbren', 8 Aug 1310 [Cawdor, pp. 3-4[20]]
'John Menteith, tutor of the earldom of Menteith', Surety of
the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[7]
Spouse: NN
Children: Helen, m. Sir Colin Campbell
Joanna, m. lstly Malise, Earl of Strathearn,
2ndly John Campbell, Earl of Athol,
3rdly Maurice Murray,
4thly (as 2nd wife) William, Earl of Sutherland
Walter
Sir John, lord of Knapdale and Arran
1.1.1.1 Walter de Menteith
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Ruskie
laird of Ruskie[12]
' domino Waltero de Menetheth ', had a charter from his cousin
Murdoch, earl of Menteith for the lands of Thom and Lanarkynys
in Menteith, and fishing rights in the river Teith, ca. 1330
[Red Book of Menteith II:225-7[12]]
Children: Sir Alexander Menteith of Ruskie
John (-<1382)
Walter
Malcolm
William
1.1.1.1.1 John Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 22 Oct 1382[12],[21]
laird of Kerse (de jure uxoris)
Sheriff of Clackmannan:
' dominum Willelmum comitem de Sotheyrland, et dominam Johannam
comitissam, sponsam suam, comitissam, videlicet, de
Stratheryn ', granted certain lands to William Murray of
Tullibody - grant of ward by John de Menteith, her kinsman,
as sheriff of Clackmannan, 31 May 1352 [Red Book of Menteith
II:234, no. 25[12] ]
re: his wife:
' David II, by charter dated January 25, in the twenty-eighth
year of his reign (1357), restored Marjory and John to her
offices and estates, to be held by them and the heirs of their
marriage, whom failing, the lawful heirs of Marjory, in the
same way as John de Strevylyn, her father, held the same.
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
charter of confirmation by King David II:
‘12.- To John Monteith and Marjorie de Striveling, daughter to John
Stirling, vic. de Clackmannan et dominum de Cars et de Striveling
et Aluethe, of the said lands, by resignation of his said spouse in
the King’s hands, in favour of her spouse. ‘ [Robertson's Index,
p. 30, no. 12[22]]
Spouse: Mary Stirling
Death: aft 22 Oct 1382[21]
Father: Sir John Stirling of Kerse (-<1356)
Marr: bef 25 Jan 1356[12],[10]
Children: Sir William (<1361->1411)
NN (-<1382), m. Sir John Livingston of Callendar
1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 22 Oct 1361[12]
Death: aft 16 May 1411[12]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[10]
evidently b. before 22 Oct 1361, as he was evidently of age (i.e.
aged 21 or more) when he received lands of Kerse & c. on the
resignation of his mother on 22 Oct 1382:
' King Robert II confirmed a resignation made at Scone, in the
Parliament held there on October 22, 1382, by Marjory Stirling,
daughter and heiress of the late John de Stirling, to William
Monteith, her son and heir and Elizabeth, his spouse, of the
said offices and estates and also the tenantries of Ochiltree
and Pardovane, in the barony of West Kerse, reserving the
life rent of Marjory.' [Sterling, p. 29[21] ]
re: his wife:
"Elizabeth, spouse of William 'Monteith' " , named in resignation
by Marjory Stirling, mother of William at Scone, October 22,
1382 - Sterling, p. 29[21]
Fraser identified her as
' Elizabeth, daughter of Graham ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
~ she evidently was a dau. of Sir David de Graham and Helen of
Strathearn (m. bef 9 Oct 1353). Her great-grandson Sir William
Menteith had dispensation to marry Euphemia Graham, related to
him in the 4th and 4th degrees (i.e. 3rd cousins). She was a
great-granddaughter of Elizabeth Graham's brother, Sir Patrick
Graham).
Spouse: Elizabeth Graham
Father: Sir David de Graham (<1324->1373)
Mother: Helen of Strathearn
Marr: bef 22 Oct 1382[21]
Children: William (<1390-)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 16 May 1390[12]
laird of Kerse
he was evidently b. before 16 May 1390, as he was of age (i.e. age 21
or more) when he had a charter for the lands resigned by his father,
dated 16 May 1411: Fraser described him as William Menteith,
' Who had, on his father's resignation on 16th May 1411, a charter
from Robert, Duke of Albany, Regent of Scotland, of the baronies
of Wester Kerse and Alva. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Fraser conflated him with his son William Menteith (who m. Helen
Livingston) [Red Book of Menteith, I:461] [12]
Children: Sir William (->1448)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]]
record of his heraldic seal:
' MENTEITH, Sir William, knight, sheriff of Clackmannan.
A shield of arms couche: On a bend three buckles. Crest: On
a helmet with mantling and wreath, a swan with wings elevated.
Legend (l.c.): ..... Diam. 15/16 in.
Mar Ch., 17 Dec. 1448, p. 3. 10 - Cast. ' [Stevenson, II:504[19]]
Spouse: Helen Livingston
Father: Sir Alexander Livingston of Callendar(-<1451)
Mother: NN Dundas
Children: Elizabeth
Sir William
Archibald
Alexander
John
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Elizabeth Menteith
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John Bruce
Death: 1483, murdered (d.v.p.)[23],[24]
Father: Alexander Bruce (-<1487)
Mother: Janet
Children: Sir Robert Bruce of Airth (<1467-ca1519)
Thomas
James
Helen
Elizabeth
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2a Sir William Menteith*
----------------------------------------
Occ: laird of Kerse
laird of Kerse[25]
sheriff of Clackmannan
dispensation for his (2nd) marriage to Euphemia Graham:
' 1474, May 12. - Edinburgh. Dispensation by Patrick,
Archbishop of St. Andrew's and legate a latere, for the
marriage of William de Menteith, of the diocese of Dunblane,
and Euphemia Grahame, of the diocese of St. Andrew's, who
are related in the fourth and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Dated in the third year of Pope Sixtus IV., and the tenth year
of his own consecration. ' [Mar MSS., p. 8[26]]
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce
of Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
'William Menteth of the Cars, knt.', party to the concord with his
nephew Robert Bruce (and incl. his brother Archibald Menteith)
concerning the murder of Robert's father John Bruce (in 1483),
as appointed by the Lords of Council at Edinburgh, 18 Oct 1490
[Armstrong, pp. xi-xii[23] ]
he m. 1stly NN,
2ndly Euphemia Graham
Spouse: NN [1st wife]
Children: William Menteith of Kerse (dvp before 1508)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2b Sir William Menteith* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Euphemia Graham [2nd wife]
Father: Malise Graham, Earl of Menteith (-<1490)
Mother: Unknown [Anne de Vere, or possibly Marion Campbell]
Marr: ca 1474
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3 Archibald Menteith
----------------------------------------
implicated in the murder of his brother-in-law, John Bruce of
Stanehouse, 1483 [Armstrong, pp. 12-13[23]]
' Jan. 28, 1488-9. - William Menteth of the Kerse, Archibald
of Menteth, his brother, Alex'r M.t for thaim, thair kyn,
and frendis on the ta parte, and Robert Broisse of Arthe,
Alexander, Lucas, and Robert Broisse, for thaim and brether,
kyne, and frendis one the tother parte, bound themselves to
abide by the Sentence of the Lordis of Council, tuiching the
making of amendis for the Slauchter of umquhile Johne, the
Broise of Arthe, and tuiching the making of amite, luf, and
tendirnes to be haid betuix the pairties, in tyme to come. '
[Pitcairn, p. 98[24]]
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.4 Alexander Menteith
----------------------------------------
cf. Pitcairn, p. 98[24]
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by Burke; and Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan],
' containing a genealogical history of the royal house of
Stewart,..'.
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http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore
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(the 'Ragman Rolls').
17. Alastair Campbell of Airds, "A History of Clan Campbell,"
Edinburgh: Polygon [an imprint of Edinburgh University Press
Ltd.], 2000, Vol. I: From Origins to Flodden.
18. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
19. John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
Scottish Heraldic Seals: Royal, Official, Ecclesiastical,
Collegiate, Burghal, Personal, Glasgow: printed by Robert
MacLehose & Coy., Limited at the University Press, 1940
(Vol. II).
20. John Frederick Vaughan Campbell Cawdor, "The Book of the
Thanes of Cawdor: a series of papers selected from the Charter
Room at Cawdor, 1236-1742," Edinburgh: T. Constable, Printer
to Her Majesty, for The Spalding Club, 1859, courtesy
Googlebooks.
21. Albert M. Sterling, "The Sterling Genealogy," New York:
Grafton Press, 1909, .pdf image files provided by
Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com.
22. William Robertson, Esq., " An index, drawn up about the
year 1629, of many records of charters, granted by the
different sovereigns of Scotland between the years 1309 and
1413,...," Edinburgh: Printed by Murray & Cochrane, 1798,
full title: An index, drawn up about the year 1629, of many
records of charters, granted by the different sovereigns of
Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413, most of which
records have been long missing., With an introduction,
giving a state, founded on authentic documents still preserved,
of the ancient records of Scotland, which were in that kingdom
in the year 1292., To which are subjoined, indexes of the
persons and places mentioned in those charters, alphabetically
arranged.
23. Major William Bruce Armstrong, "The Bruces of Airth and Their
Cadets," Edinburgh: privately printed, 1892.
24. Robert Pitcairn, Esq., "Criminal Trials in Scotland, From A.D.
M.CCCC.LXXXVIII to A.D. M.DC.XXIV," Vol. I, Part 1, Edinburgh:
William Tait (and London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, Green,
and Longman), 1833.
25. Edwin Brockholst Livingston, "The Livingstons of Callendar and
their Principal Cadets: The history of an old Stirlingshire
family," Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1920, .pdf images
provided by Genealogy.com, http://www.genealogy.com/ re:
the Livingstons of Kilsyth (cf. Chapter IX, THE LIVINGSTONS,
VISCOUNTS OF KILSYTH), pp. 210 et seq.
26. Historical Manuscripts Commission, "Report on the Manuscripts
of the Earl of Mar and Kellie: Preserved at Alloa House, N.B.,"
London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office, by Ben
Johnson and Company, York, 1904.
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
<< It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage never took
place. Euphemia is known to have married Sir William Stewart of
Dalswinton, and to have been alive in October 1495 [4]. >>
I also have this same Euphemia Graham married to "Robert Vaux of Barnbarroch"
Is this correct? And if so would Robert be her third husband? Or second?
Thanks
Will
WJho...@aol.com
<< 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William Menteith
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 17 Dec 1448[19]
laird of Kerse[23],[10]
sheriff of Clackmannan
' He married Helen, a daughter of Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar, by whom he had issue. ' [Red Book of Menteith, I:461[12]] >>
Wasn't she his second-cousin ?
Helen dau of Alexander son of John and Miss Menteith dau of John
Menteith/Margery Stirling
William Menteith son of William son of William son of John Menteith/Margery
Stirling
The...@aol.com
According to our friends at "Stirnet", this would appear to be correct.
I am not certain about the documentation concerning the alleged Vaux (or
'Vans') marriage; also, as I stated in the original post,
' It is interesting that the above dispensation
was not noted by Fraser: it is possible the marriage
never took place. '
What the numeration of the marriages were in fact for Euphemia Graham
certainly deserves further consideration.
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
Yes, based on the traditional Livingston pedigree and my revised
Menteith pedigree, they were 2nd cousins * .
This would certainly have required a dispensation. With a
large amount of luck, this may eventually be noted.
Cheers,
John
* Not proof in either direction, but the Menteith pedigree as
accepted to date places the relationship as 1st cousins 1x
removed (i.e., 2nd and 3rd degree).