Complete Peerage addenda: Maud, wife of Reynold Grey, 4th Lord Grey of Wilton, and Blanche, wife of Richard Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Wilton
Chris Phillips
Greys of Rotherfield reminded me of another alleged Grey-Botetourt marriage
on my list.
This is the marriage originally stated by CP between Reynold, Lord Grey of
Wilton (d. 1370) and Maud, "said to have been daughter of John de Botetourt,
of Weoley, co. Worcester". Volume 14 corrected this to "'apparently daughter
of Sir Richard de la Vache", but Douglas Richardson pointed out the
chronological difficulty of this in a post in June:
<<
On the other hand, in a suit dated 1443, Reynold and Maud's
great-grandson, also named Reynold Grey, alleged that Maud, wife of
Reynold, 4th Grey of Wilton, was the daughter of Richard de la Vache,
which Maud he claimed is named in a de la Vache family settlement
dated 1308 [Reference: Genealogist n.s. 18 (1902): 102; cf. VCH
Cambridge 5 (1973): 166].
However, this claim is evidently erroneous, as Maud de la Vache named
in the 1308 settlement is surely identical with a Maud de la Vache
named in a still earlier Vache family settlement dated 1295
[Reference: A. Travers, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Buckinghamshire
1259-1307 (Buckinghamshire Rec. Soc. 25) (1989): 73]. If Maud de la
Vache was born prior to 1295, it would make it virtually
chronologically impossible for her to be Maud, wife of Reynold Grey,
4th Lord Grey of Wilton, as Reynold Grey was born in 1311.
>>
Looking at the VCH Cambridgeshire account of the Vaches, it does seem that
Richard's daughter Maud would fit more comfortably a generation earlier than
Reynold Grey (or even two earlier, at a pinch), as Richard was married by
1281 and his second son Richard was already a clerk at the time of the 1308
settlement.
However, it's not clear to me from what I've seen that the great grandson
Reynold actually claimed that Reynold's wife Maud was the daughter of
Richard de la Vache. Wrottesley's "Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls" published
in the Genealogist combines two disputes between Reynold and his stepmother,
which occurred in the same term.
The first concerned lands in Derbyshire, and produced a pedigree showing
Reynold, his father, grandfather, great grandfather and great grandmother
Matilda (not identified further). The other concerned lands in
Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire, and hinged on the 1308 settlement,
with Reynold claiming "as right heir of Maud".
Possibly Reynold did claim that his great grandmother Maud was identical
with Maud the daughter of Richard de la Vache (VCH Bucks ii (Aston Clinton)
says she was, citing the second of these pleas), but this goes beyond what
Wrottesley abstracted. So perhaps the solution could be that great
grandmother Maud was a daughter of Maud de la Vache.
(It's tempting to try to reconcile this with the traditional account that
great grandmother Maud was a daughter of John de Botetourt, by supposing
that John de Botetourt (d. 1324) married Maud de la Vache. Even more
tempting, as according to the CP account this John did leave a widow named
Maud. But he is also stated to have married, by 1292, Maud sister and heir
of Otes Fitz Thomas, presumably the ancestress of the later Botetourts.
Perhaps it could be made to work by having him marry (i) this Maud and (ii)
after 1308 Maud de la Vache, but maybe that's a speculation too far.)
<<
Curiously, this same Richard Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Wilton, is alleged
to have married Blanche de la Vache, daughter and heiress of Philip de
la Vache. The source for Blanche's parentage appears to be G.F.
Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (1841):
374-376, who in turn cites as his source "Vinc. No. 20 f. 373 in Coll.
Armor." However, it is extremely doubtful that Blanche was Philip de
la Vache's daughter, as neither Sir Philip's testament . nor his will,
. nor the inquisition on his widow's death . mention or suggest that
any children survived his death [Reference: VCH Cambridge 5 (1973):
166]. Moreover, on Sir Philip de la Vache's death, the de la Vache
manors fell to his kinswoman ("cousin"), Amy Alberd, wife of John
Kirkham, not the Grey family.
>>
This leaves the identity of Richard Grey's (d. 1461) first wife completely
unknown (from the Complete Peerage account, it's not even clear whether she
is really known to have been called Blanche). In fact, some doubt seems to
hang over the wives of all of the first six Lords Grey of Wilton treated by
CP.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips wrote:
> This leaves the identity of Richard Grey's (d. 1461) first wife completely
> unknown (from the Complete Peerage account, it's not even clear whether
she
> is really known to have been called Blanche).
Except that, looking back over my notes, I see that Douglas Richardson did
point out that Richard (whose death date should read 1442) had in 1403 been
contracted to marry Maud le Scrope, and asked whether she could in fact have
been the mother of his son and heir.
Chris Phillips
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
> From: Chris Phillips [mailto:c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 15:02
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Complete Peerage addenda: Maud, wife of Reynold
> Grey, 4th Lord Grey of Wilton, and Blanche, wife of Richard
> Grey, 6th Lord Grey of Wilton
>
> (It's tempting to try to reconcile this with the traditional
> account that great grandmother Maud was a daughter of John de
> Botetourt, by supposing that John de Botetourt (d. 1324)
> married Maud de la Vache. Even more tempting, as according to
> the CP account this John did leave a widow named Maud. But he
> is also stated to have married, by 1292, Maud sister and heir
> of Otes Fitz Thomas, presumably the ancestress of the later
> Botetourts. Perhaps it could be made to work by having him
> marry (i) this Maud and (ii) after 1308 Maud de la Vache, but
> maybe that's a speculation too far.)
>
<Snip 2>
>
> Chris Phillips
>
Chris, and all
For what it's worth, I found these two (of many) notices concerning John
de Botetourt, died 1324in Moor's Knights of Edward 1.
"His w. Maud, 26, is d. of Thos. FitzOtto by Beatrice, d. coh. of Simon
de Bello Campo, Baron of Bedford, 4 Oct. 1295 (Inq.). "
And
"Died 25 Nov. 1324, holding lands in many counties, and leaving wid.
Maud, and g.s. h. John, 7, s. of his s. Thomas, dec. (Inq.). His wid.
Maud was dead 27 Nov. 1328 (F.R.)."
Hope this helps.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX
Chris Phillips
> (It's tempting to try to reconcile this with the traditional account that
> great grandmother Maud was a daughter of John de Botetourt, by supposing
> that John de Botetourt (d. 1324) married Maud de la Vache. Even more
> tempting, as according to the CP account this John did leave a widow named
> Maud. But he is also stated to have married, by 1292, Maud sister and heir
> of Otes Fitz Thomas, presumably the ancestress of the later Botetourts.
> Perhaps it could be made to work by having him marry (i) this Maud and
(ii)
> after 1308 Maud de la Vache, but maybe that's a speculation too far.)
I should have looked more closely at CP before suggesting that. A footnote
does mention a settlement made by John Botetourt's widow, Maud, in 1328.
Further details are given in the article on Latimer (vol. 7, p. 469), which
make it clear that Maud, sister and heir of Otes Fitz Thomas, did survive
her husband John de Botetourt.
Chris Phillips