Who were parents of Richard de Quincy who m. Hawise of Chester?

[Greg Vaut]

My three seconday/tertiary sources on this Richard de Quincy offer different lineages:

1. Genealogics shows the Robert de Quincy (d ca 1232) who m. Hawise of Chester as the son of Robert (b ca 1138 d 1197) and Orabelle (dau. of Nes), and grandson of Saher (b ca 1100 d ca 1156/58) and Mathilde de St. Liz. citing Burke, Turton and ES)

2. Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013, vol IV, p. 441) shows this Robert (d 1217 m. Hawise) as son of Saher (d 3 Nov 1219) and Margaret of Leicester, and grandson of Robert and Orabel Fitz Ness. (with multiple sources cited)

3. Weis (8th ed., 2004, Line 54-28, p. 63) shows this Robert (dvp bef 1232) as son of Saher IV de Quincy (b 1155 d 3 Nov 1219) and Margaret de Beaumont, and grandson of Robert and Orabel (dau. of Nes). (with multiple sources cited)

Is there a confusion between sons named Robert and Saher in different generations (c.f. differences in birthdates) or something else?

[taf]

This has been discussed here multiple times. A summary of the resolution can be found here:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/winchester.shtml

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Thank you kind Sir!

Greg

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Greg (and Newsgroup) ~

It was Robert de Quincy (not Richard de Quincy) who married Hawise of Chester. Robert de Quincy was the son and heir apparent of Saher (or Saier) de Quincy, Knt., the Magna Carta baron, of Grantchester, Cambridgeshire, Eynesbury and Keyston, Huntingdonshire, Long Buckby, Northamptonshire, Bradenham, Suffolk, and Leuchars, Fife and Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland, by his wife, Margaret (or Margery), daughter of Robert de Bréteuil, Knt., 2nd Earl of Leicester.

Confusion regarding Robert de Quincy's parentage was caused among earlier historians due to the fact that Sir Saher de Quincy had not one, but two sons named Robert. The other Robert de Quincy was of Wakes Colne, Essex, Broom and Stokeley, Bedfordshire, Ware, Hertfordshire, Winterbourne Stoke, Wiltshire, etc. He married Ellen, daughter of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales.

For evidence of Robert de Quincy's correct parentage, see Lindsay et al., Charters, Bulls & Other Docs. Rel. the Abbey of Inchaffray (Scottish Hist. Soc. 56) (1908): lxxxvi–lxxxix, 245 (Robert styled “eldest son” in charter of his father).

See also Luard, Annales Monastici 2 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1865): 289 (Annals of Waverley sub A.D. 1217: “Obiit Robertus de Quinci filius Seeri de Quinci”).

And VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 200–201 which states: “Hawise’s husband was Robert son of Saher and not… a younger brother of Saher called Robert, otherwise unknown.” It cities these sources: Hardy, Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum 1 (1833): 342; Duchy of Lancaster 3 (PRO Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 5) (1964): 82.

You might also wish to consult a helpful article by Doris Grace Roth entitled "Robert de Quincy, eldest son of the first Earl of Winchester" published in The Genealogist, vol.5 (1984), pp.221-225.

For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account for Robert de Quincy and Hawise of Chester.

The following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Robert de Quincy and his wife, Hawise of Chester, Countess of Lincoln:

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Frances Baldwin, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, William Berkeley, Richard & William Bernard, Joseph Bolles, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Elizabeth, Martha & Peter Bulkeley, Nathaniel Burrough, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, James & Norton Claypoole, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Elizabeth Haynes, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Olive Ingoldsby, Henry Isham, Edmund Kempe, Mary Launce, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne & Catherine Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt.

Newsgroup members: Do you descend from Robert de Quincy and his wife, Hawise of Chester? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing your line of descent here on the newsgroup.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist (a fellow Quincy descendant)

+ + + + + + + + + +

ROBERT DE QUINCY (or DE QUINCI, QUENCY), son and heir apparent. He married c.1197–1200 (date of charter) HAWISE OF CHESTER, suo jure Countess of Lincoln, daughter of Hugh, Earl of Chester, by Bertrade (or Bertreia, Berta, etc.), daughter of Simon de Montfort, Count of Évreux [see CHESTER 5 for her ancestry]. She was born in 1180. She had 10 librates of land in Waddington, land in Sibsey, and the service of three fees in Cabourn in marriage. They had one daughter, Margaret (or Margery). He and his father were captured at the Battle of Lincoln 20 May 1217. ROBERT DE QUINCY died at London in 1217, and was buried at the Church of the Hospitallers, Clerkenwell, Middlesex. In the period, 1217–19, his widow, Hawise, granted a rent to the brethren of the Hospital of Jerusalem in England for the foundation of a chantry at the Hospitallers’ house at Clerkenwell, Middlesex, for the soul of her husband, Robert. In 1223 Matthew de Leyham leased to Lady Hawise de Quenci land in the vill of Bereford, called Berefordes Gore for a term of 15 years. About 1230–1 his widow, Hawise, received a charter from her brother, Ranulph, Earl of Chester and Lincoln, purporting to convey to her the Earldom of Lincoln. In 1231–2 Gilbert son of Osbert de Graham quitclaimed to Hawise de Quency, Countess of Lincoln all right in certain land in the territory of Graham, Lincolnshire, which the said Hawise had by grant from the said Osbert. On 27 October 1232, shortly after Ranulph’s death, the King granted the 3rd penny of the county of Lincoln to Hawise as the Earl’s sister and co-heiress, in consequence of which grant she may be held to have become the Countess of Lincoln. On the preliminary division of the honour of Chester, she received the castle and manor of Bolingbroke, Lincolnshire, with the Earl’s lands in Lindsey and Holland. As Hawise, Countess of Lincoln, she presented to the churches of Toynton All Saints, Lincolnshire, 1235, 1237; Little Steeping, Lincolnshire, 1235; a mediety of Toynton St. Peter, Lincolnshire, 1237; and Winceby, Lincolnshire, 1233, ?1246–7. In 1241 she sued Amabel, widow of Richard Rufus, in a plea of dower in Northamptonshire. Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln, died shortly before 19 Feb. 1242/3.

References:

Brooke, Cat. Kings, Princes, Dukes, etc., of England (161922): 342. Bridges, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northamptonshire 1 (1791): 544–545. Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 6 (1807): 134–135. Ormerod, Hist. of Chester 1 (1819): 28. Baker, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northampton 1 (1822–30): 563 (Beaumont-Quincy ped.). Burke, Dict. of the Peerages… Extinct, Dormant & in Abeyance (1831): 442–443 (sub Quincy). Procs. of his Majesty’s Commissioners on the Public Recs. (1833): 293. Coll. Top. et Gen. 2 (1835): 247–249. Giles, Chronicon Angliæ Petriburgense (1845): 136 (sub A.D. 1241: “Obiit domina Hawisia Quincy, comitissa Lincolniæ”). Top. & Gen. 1 (1846): 316, 320 (charter and seal of Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln). Mems. Ill. of the Hist. & Antiqs. of Lincoln (1850): 253–279, esp. 271–272 (“The Seal of the Countess Hawise exists in an imperfect impression in the British Museum. The circular device in the centre is slightly sunk, and it was possibly a large antique intaglio, set into the matrix. Above and below, is placed a mascle, the armorial bearing of Quency, her husband’s family.”). Luard, Annales Monastici 2 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1865): 289 (Annals of Waverley sub A.D. 1217: “Obiit Robertus de Quinci filius Seeri de Quinci”). Burton, Chronica Monasterii de Melsa 1 (Rolls Ser.) (1866): 436 (“Cui successit in hereditatem Johannes Scoticus, filius sororis suæ. Iste nempe Ranulphus sine liberis decedens quatuor habuit sorores. Quarum .... 4a Hawisia nupsit Roberto Quincy comiti Wyntoniensi”). Ellis, Antiqs. of Heraldry (1869): 195–196(1869): 195–197 (Quincy ped.). Leycester & Mainwaring Tracts written in the Controversy respecting the Legitimacy of Amicia, daughter of Hugh Cyveliok, Earl of Chester 3 (Chetham Soc. 80) (1869): 334–335. Fraser, Registrum Monasterii S. Marie de Cambuskenneth, A.D. 1147–1535 (1872): 91–94. Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 35 (1874): 8, 10. Fourth Rpt. (Hist. MSS Comm. 3) (1874): 460. Stubbs, Historical Works of Gervase of Canterbury 2 (Rolls Ser. 73) (1880): 110–111. Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 18–20 (Beaumont, Earls of Chester ped.: “Hawes doughter & cooheyre of Hugh Earl of Chester wyff to Robert Quyncy Erl of Wynchester & son to Sir Sere.”). Ormerod, Hist. of the County Palatine & City of Chester 1 (1882): 26–33. Maitland, Bracton’s Note Book 3 (1887): 280–283. Fry & Fry, Abs. of Feet of Fines Rel. Dorset 1 (Dorset Rec. Soc. 5) (1896): 151–152. Dowden, Chartulary of the Abbey of Lindores 1195–1479 (Scottish Hist. Soc. 42) (1903): 276–277. Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 531–532. C.P.R. 1232–1247 (1906): 3. Lindsay et al. , Charters, Bulls & Other Docs. Rel. the Abbey of Inchaffray (Scottish Hist. Soc. 56) (1908): lxxxvi–lxxxix, 245 (Robert styled “eldest son” in charter of his father). D.N.B. 16 (1909): 556–559 (biog. of Saer de Quincy). C.P. 3 (1913): 169, footnote a; 7 (1929): 675–676 (sub Lincoln); 12(2) (1959): 748 footnote g, 751 (sub Winchester); 14 (1998): 436 (sub Lincoln). Turner, Cal. Feet of Fines Rel. Huntingdon (Cambridge Antiq. Soc. 8° Ser. 37) (1913): 15. Davis, Rotuli Hugonis de Welles Episcopi Lincolniensis 1209–1235 3 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 9) (1914): 211. Grosseteste, Rotuli Roberti Grosseteste Episcopi Lincolniensis (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 11) (1914): 9, 11, 17, 23, 44, 87. Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters 2 (1915): 195 (chart). C.C.R. 1242–1247 (1916): 89, 271. Associated Architectural & Archaeological Socs., Reports & Papers 35 (1919): 113, 130. English Hist. Rev. 35 (1920): 26–54. Fowler, Cal. IPM 1 (Bedfordshire Hist. Rec. Soc. 5) (1920): 235–238. Farrer, Feudal Cambridgeshire (1920): 96, 247–248. Farrer, Honors & Knights’ Fees 2 (1924): 10–11, 96–99. Farnham, Leicestershire Medieval Peds. (1925): 11 (ped. of Earls of Chester). Trans. Leicestershire Arch. Soc. 15 (1927–28): 225. Easson, Charters of the Abbey of Coupar-Angus 1 (Scottish Hist. Soc. 3rd Ser. 40) (1947): 3 (author confuses Robert de Quincy, died 1217, with his grandfather, Robert de Quincy, died 1200). Hatton, Book of Seals (1950): 79. Major, Registrum Antiquissimum of the Cathedral Church of Lincoln 6 (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 41) (1950): 44. Medievalia et Humanistica 11 (1957): 3–10. Paget Baronage of England (1957) 464: 1–8 (sub Quincy). Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 18, 32–33. Painter, Feudalism & Liberty (1961): 230–239 (assigns Robert de Quincy the wrong parentage). VCH Lancaster 1 (1906): 306. Duchy of Lancaster 3 (PRO Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 5) (1964): 73, 82, 101. Tremlett, Rolls of Arms Henry III (H.S.P 113-4) (1967): 19 (Matthew Paris shields — arms of Robert de Quincy: Gules, seven voided lozenges conjoined or). Curia Regis Rolls 15 (1972): 162–163, 282, 287, 365–366, 419, 439, 498–499; 16 (1979): 411; 17 (1991): 150, 407–408; 18 (1999): 301. VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 200–201 (“Hawise’s husband was Robert son of Saher and not… a younger brother of Saher called Robert, otherwise unknown;” cities Hardy, Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum 1 (1833): 342; Duchy of Lancaster 3 (PRO Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 5) (1964): 82.). TG 5 (1984): 221–225. Barraclough, Charters of the Earls of Chester (Lanc. & Cheshire Rec. Soc. 126) (1988): 209, 302, 305–309, 309–310 (Lady Hawise de Quincy styled “my dearest sister” [sorori mee karissime] by Ranulph, Earl of Chester and Lincoln in charter dated 1232), 441–442. Cooper, Oxfordshire Eyre 1241 (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 56) (1989): 22. Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln n.s. 3(4) (1989): 708 (sub Quency). Anderson, Early Sources of Scottish Hist. 2 (1990): 488 (Chron. of Peterborough sub anno 1232: “Also in the same year, or in the following year according to some, Randolph, the earl of Chester and lord of Bolingbroke, died at his castle of Wallingford… He was exceedingly renowned and famous in the whole kingdom. And because he had no children, his heritage was divided among his four sisters; namely Matilda, the wife of earl David; Mabel, the wife of the earl of Arundel; and Agnes, the wife of earl William de Ferrieres; and Hawisia, who married Robert Quincey, the earl of Winchester. And Hawisia Quincey, the fourth sister of Randolph, acquired the earldom of Lincoln. And she bore a daughter, Margaret, [wife of Walter] Marshal, earl of Pembroke; upon whose death she married John de Lacy, the constable of Chester: and his son was Edmund Lacy, whose son was Henry Lacy, whose daughter and heir was Alice de Lacy, who died in the year of the Lord 1349.”), 488 footnote 4 (cites Chron. of Peterborough, 136, sub anno 1241: “Lady Hawisia Quincey, the countess of Lincoln, died”). Owen, Medieval Lindsey Marsh (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 85) (1996): 88–89 (agreement between Hawise de Quincy, Countess of Lincoln and Philip de Kyme dated 1240). Haskins Society Jour. 10 (2002): 171–172 (discusses charters dated c.1200 concerning the marriage of Robert and Hawise).

Child of Robert de Quincy, by Hawise of Chester:

a. MARGARET (or MARGERY) DE QUINCY, married (1st) JOHN DE LACY (also known as JOHN OF CHESTER), Knt., Earl of Lincoln, hereditary Constable of Chester, Magna Carta baron [see LACY 3]; (2nd) WALTER MARSHAL, Knt., Earl of Pembroke, hereditary Master Marshal [see LACY 3; MARSHAL 3.iv].

[Peter Stewart]

On 04-Oct-20 3:34 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Greg (and Newsgroup) ~
>
> It was Robert de Quincy (not Richard de Quincy) who married Hawise of Chester. Robert de Quincy was the son and heir apparent of Saher (or Saier) de Quincy, Knt., the Magna Carta baron, of Grantchester, Cambridgeshire, Eynesbury and Keyston, Huntingdonshire, Long Buckby, Northamptonshire, Bradenham, Suffolk, and Leuchars, Fife and Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland, by his wife, Margaret (or Margery), daughter of Robert de Bréteuil, Knt., 2nd Earl of Leicester.

As Todd said, this has been discussed before. The two brothers Robert
were presumably named independently after their two grandfathers (Quincy
and Beaumont) of this name.

Readers are advised not to follow Richardson's bizarrely fancified
orthography for Breteuil. The place is Breteuil-sur-Iton, with no acute,
as correctly given in an official document here ("La commune nouvelle,
qui prend le nom de Breteuil, a son chef-lieu fixé au chef-lieu de
l'ancienne commune de Breteuil"):
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000031741115?r=HRMNt0Sg2n.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 10:24:32 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> This has been discussed here multiple times. A summary of the
> resolution can be found here:

As a follow-up, this is a classic case where historians with the definitive evidence readily to hand, and at one time well known, nonetheless managed to 'logic' their way to making the worst kind of error, their excess of ingenuity leading them to 'correct' true information with a 'better' solution.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Douglas, Todd and Peter,

Thank you for your clarifications (and lack of accent noted).

Greg

[Greg Vaut]

Douglas,

My database contains the ancestries of myself, my wife, and a brother-in-law. According to what I have found, all three of us have descents from Robert de Quincy and Hawise of Chester, through through three differnt immigrant ancestors:
** Myself: Gabriel Holland (b. 1596 London, d. 1660 James City VA)
** My wife: Samuel Griffith Sr. (b 1637 Herefordshire, d. 1717 Prince Georges' Co. MD)
** My brother-in-law: Rev. Henry Cecil b. 1621/1635 England (his son was born 1665 in Prince Georges' Co. MD)

I seem to have more than one descent (as may my wife and my b-i-l), but I don't know how to make my woftware (TMG) produce the different charts. In my case, I have that Maude de Lacy (#3) had multiple children and I am apparently descended from two others (Thomas and Roese), in addition to Gilbert (#4). I have a databased online at https://www.acvancestors.com/ which has fairly good documentation on sources for most individuals (Robert de Quincy is at https://www.acvancestors.com/g0/p157.htm#i4683).

Descent #1 - Myself
1. Robert II de Quincy (4683) +Hawise (--?--) of Chester, 1st Countess of Lincoln (4684)
2. Margaret de Quincy Countess of Lincoln (4685) +John de Lacy of Hatton, 1st Earl of Lincoln (4673)
3. Maude de Lacy Countess of Lincoln (4655) +Sir Richard de Clare 5th Earl of Hertford, 5th Earl of Gloucester (4654)
4. Sir Gilbert de Red de Clare Knt., 6th Earl of Hertford & Gloucester (4417) +Joan of Acre (--?--) Princess of England, Countess of Gloucester and Hertford (4419)
5. Margaret de Clare Countess of Cornwall (4658) +Sir Hugh de Audley Knt., 8th Earl of Gloucester (5664)
6. Margaret de Audley Baroness Audley suo jure (5651) +Sir Ralph de Stafford KG, KB, 2nd Earl of Stafford (5641)
7. Sir Hugh de Stafford K.G., 2nd Earl of Stafford (5652) +Philippa de Beauchamp (5653)
8. Edmund de Stafford KG, KB, 5th Earl of Stafford (11888) +Anne (--?--) of Gloucester, Countess of Buckingham, Hereford and Northampton (11885)
9. Lady Anne Stafford (10990) +Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter (12731)
10. Sir Henry de Holand Knt., 3rd Duke of Exeter (11482)
11. Thomas "Bastard of Exeter" Holand (18274)
12. Henry Hollande (18267)
13. Henry Hollande (18256) +Hillary Briwarde (18257)
14. John Hollande (4009) +Mary Mollenax (4010)
15. Gabriel Holland (4007) +Mary Pinke (4008) ----- IMMIGRANT
16. Capt. John Holland (4005) +Elizabeth Mary Oudelant (4006)
17. Michael Holland (3950) +Judith (--?--) (3951)
18. Susanna Holland (1744) +Thomas W. Massie Sr. (3941)
19. Thomas W. Massie Jr. (3940) +Nancy Lee (1743)
20. Elizabeth "Betsy" Lee Massie (1742) +Strother Jefferson McGinnis (1741)
21. Dickson Dedman McGinnis (1738) +Leurena/Lurena Ann Stewart (1739)
22. Mary Elizabeth McGinnis (1717) +Alexis Briscoe Pratt (1716)
23. Robert Delaney Pratt (1682) +Myrtle Lee Roberts (1683)
24. Lois Lorene Pratt (1678) +Lt. Col. Bert A Vaut Jr. (1677)
25. Gregory Alan Vaut (1)

Descent #2 - My wife
1. Robert II de Quincy (4683) +Hawise (--?--) of Chester, 1st Countess of Lincoln (4684)
2. Margaret de Quincy Countess of Lincoln (4685) +John de Lacy of Hatton, 1st Earl of Lincoln (4673)
3. Maude de Lacy Countess of Lincoln (4655) +Sir Richard de Clare 5th Earl of Hertford, 5th Earl of Gloucester (4654)
4. Sir Gilbert de Red de Clare Knt., 6th Earl of Hertford & Gloucester (4417) +Joan of Acre (--?--) Princess of England, Countess of Gloucester and Hertford (4419)
5. Lady Eleanor (Alionore) de Clare (4416) +Sir Hugh "the Younger" le Despenser Knt., 1st Lord le Despenser, of Hanley Castle, Worcestershire (4413)
6. Elizabeth le Despenser (7552) +Maurice 'the Valiant' de Berkeley 4th Lord Berkeley (7553)
7. Sir James de Berkeley Knt., of Little Marshfield, Gloucestershire (11603) +Elizabeth Bluet (11604)
8. James de Berkeley Knt., 1st Lord Berkeley (11558) +Lady Isabel Mowbray (11516)
9. Sir Maurice de Berkeley 3rd Lord Berkeley (11611) +Isabel Meade (11615)
10. Sir Thomas 'the Sheepmaster' de Berkeley Knt., 5th Lord Berkeley (11617) +Eleanor Constable of Flamborough (11619)
11. Muriel Berkeley (46465) +Sir Robert Throckmorton of Coughton Court, Warwickshire (46464)
12. Thomas Throckmorton Esq., of Morehall (46462) +Mary Whorwood (46463)
13. Elizabeth Throckmorton (46461) +Sir Henry Griffith (46460)
14. Henry Griffith (46023) +Margaret Willoughby (46024)
15. Samuel Griffith Sr. (46021) +Elizabeth (Margaret) Evans (46022) ----- IMMIGRANTS
16. Elizabeth Rowles Griffith (37421) +Guy White II (37420)
17. Elizabeth White (8726) +Mordecai Price II (8725)
18. Elizabeth Price (8227) +Warwick Miller (8226)
19. Elizabeth Miller (8223) +Richard R. Downing (8222)
20. Miller Downing (8210) +Sarah Guinn (Gwinne) Mount (8211)
21. Deborah Elizabeth Downing (8203) +Jacob D. Valentine Sr. (8202)
22. Ellen Downing Valentine (8186) +George Reuben Meek (52)
23. Peter Gray Meek (1722) +Lucile Rasin (1723)
24. Ellen Downing Meek (2)

Descent #3 - My Brother-in-law
1. Robert II de Quincy (4683) +Hawise (--?--) of Chester, 1st Countess of Lincoln (4684)
2. Margaret de Quincy Countess of Lincoln (4685) +John de Lacy of Hatton, 1st Earl of Lincoln (4673)
3. Maude de Lacy Countess of Lincoln (4655) +Sir Richard de Clare 5th Earl of Hertford, 5th Earl of Gloucester (4654)
4. Thomas de Clare Earl, of Thomnd in Connaught (4657) +Juliane Fitz Maurice of Dublin (5620)
5. Margaret de Clare (5621) +Bartholomew de Badlesmere 1st Lord Badlesmere (5718)
6. Maud de Badlesmere (10011) +John de Vere 7th Earl of Oxford (10010)
7. Aubrey de Vere 10th Earl of Oxford (12053) +Alice Fitz Walter (12054)
8. Richard Vere KG, 11th Earl of Oxford (12052) +Alice Sergeaux (11634)
9. Sir John de Vere Knt., 12th Earl of Oxford (12058) +Elizabeth Howard (12059)
10. Sir George de Vere Knt. (12063) +Margaret Stafford (12064)
11. Dorothy de Vere (24655) +John Neville 3rd Lord Latimer (11365)
12. John Neville 4th Lord Latimer (24644) +Lady Lucy Somerset (24645)
13. Dorothy Neville (24594) +Sir Thomas Cecil KG, 1st Earl of Exeter (24593)
14. Sir Thomas Cecil Knt. (24605) +Susan Oxenbridge (26017)
15. Rev. Henry Cecil (26016) ----- IMMIGRANT
16. William Cecil (25998) +Mary (--?--) (25999)
17. Philip Cecil (25990) +Elizabeth Gittings (25991)
18. Elizabeth Cecil (25951) +Thomas Jefferson Witten (25950)
19. William Stanley Witten (22819) +Letitia Laird (22820)
20. Mary Witten (22814) +James Patterson (22813)
21. Letitia Laird Patterson (22805) +James Madison Browder (22804)
22. Dr. David Newton Browder (22802) +Mary Emma Byrd (22803)
23. Mary Byrd Browder (22721) +Oliver King Jones (22720)
25. John Martin Jones III (21297) +Martha Arnold "Arnie" Susong (21298)
25. Gregg King Jones (6323)

Greg

[Greg Vaut]

Douglas,

Your query about my descents led me to (after years) go back to check what I have.

I found a soc.gen.med post by Todd from 31 Oct. 2003 where he states "I am not aware of any claimed, let alone documented children of
Thomas or William, Bastards of Exeter."

I will continue to check, but this certainly implies that my generation 12 in Descent #1 is likely incorrect. Do you have any other evidence on this?

I wrote my first email with the descents a little too hurriedly. I should have said that I am very open to identifying and clearing up any and all falacies in my work, and frankly, don't mind at all that it may happen here in "pulic". I maintain a website in order to share my own meager research as widely as possibly. Any corrections to my information that get disseminated, I consider just part of that educational intent.

Please feel free to punch holes in any of the generations in any of the three descents.

Greg

[taf]

On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> 9. Lady Anne Stafford (10990) +Sir John de Holand Knt., KG, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter (12731)
> 10. Sir Henry de Holand Knt., 3rd Duke of Exeter (11482)
> 11. Thomas "Bastard of Exeter" Holand (18274)
> 12. Henry Hollande (18267)
> 13. Henry Hollande (18256) +Hillary Briwarde (18257)

This is a problematic stretch. The Thomas Holland typically referred to as Bastard of Exeter, the man executed by the Earl of Warwick, was a contemporary of the 3rd Duke of Exeter, and clearly his half-brother rather than his illegitimate son, so this alone would render nugatory any descent from the wife of the 2nd Duke.

That being said, it may not be the biggest problem here. One gets a feel for these things, and it looks to me like the whole thing might be made up, that a descendant of the later Hollands simply picked a known but somewhat obscure person with a glamorous pedigree as an appropriate target onto which they could dangle their ancestor of unknown origin.

[Peter Stewart]

Well said - "excess of ingenuity" is the hallmark of revisionism,
seeking a new solution or different angle for its own sake rather than
because the evidence demands it, that bedevils modern scholarship in
general and medieval genealogy in particular.

Peter Stewart

[Greg Vaut]

Well said gentlemen! It's Fall in Vermont and time to do some family tree pruning.

Greg

[Greg Vaut]

Douglas:

Here are my other two descents from Robert de Quincy and Hawise of Chester (by the two other children of his granddaughter, Maude de Lacy - see previous Descent #1):

Descent #4
1. Maude de Lacy Countess of Lincoln (4655) +Sir Richard de Clare 5th Earl of Hertford, 5th Earl of Gloucester (4654)
2. Thomas de Clare Earl, of Thomnd in Connaught (4657) +Juliane Fitz Maurice of Dublin (5620)
3. Margaret de Clare (5621) +Bartholomew de Badlesmere 1st Lord Badlesmere (5718)
4. Elizabeth de Badlesmere (5717) +Sir William de Bohun Knt., KG, 1st Earl of Northampton (7507)
5. Elizabeth de Bohun (7513) +Richard Fitz Alan KG, 11th/4th Earl of Arundel, 10th Earl of Surrey (7514)
6. Lady Elizabeth Fitz Alan Countess of Norfolk (11246) +Sir Robert Goushill Knt., of Hoveringham, Nottinghamshire (11251)
7. Joan (Jane, Jean) Goushill (11257) +Sir Thomas I Stanley Knt., KG, 1st Lord Stanley of Lathom (12081)
8. Anne Stanley (12758) +Sir Richard Molyneux Knt., of Sefton (12759)
9. Sir Thomas Molyneux Knt. (12658) +Anne Dutton (12657)
10. Lawrence Molyneux (18243)
11. John Mollenax (4011)
12. Mary Mollenax (4010) +John Hollande (4009)
13. Gabriel Holland (4007) +Mary Pinke (4008)
14. Capt. John Holland (4005) +Elizabeth Mary Oudelant (4006)
15. Michael Holland (3950) +Judith (--?--) (3951)
16. Susanna Holland (1744) +Thomas W. Massie Sr. (3941)
17. Thomas W. Massie Jr. (3940) +Nancy Lee (1743)
18. Elizabeth "Betsy" Lee Massie (1742) +Strother Jefferson McGinnis (1741)
19. Dickson Dedman McGinnis (1738) +Leurena/Lurena Ann Stewart (1739)
20. Mary Elizabeth McGinnis (1717) +Alexis Briscoe Pratt (1716)
21. Robert Delaney Pratt (1682) +Myrtle Lee Roberts (1683)
22. Lois Lorene Pratt (1678) +Lt. Col. Bert A Vaut Jr. (1677)
23. Gregory Alan Vaut

Descent #5
1. Maude de Lacy Countess of Lincoln (4655) +Sir Richard de Clare 5th Earl of Hertford, 5th Earl of Gloucester (4654)
2. Roese de Clare (4656) +Sir Roger de Mowbray Knt., 1st Lord Mowbray of Thirsk (12959)
3. John de Mowbray Knt., 2nd Lord Mowbray, Baron of Axholme and Thirsk (11509) +Aline de Brewes (Breuse) (11510)
4. Sir John de Mowbray Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray, Baron of Axholme and Thirsk (7585) +Joan (--?--) of Lancaster (4797)
5. Sir John de Mowbray Knt., 4th Lord Mowbray (11244) +Elizabeth de Segrave Baroness Segrave (11243)
6. Margaret Mowbray (67588) +Sir Reginald Lucy Knt., of Dallington and Slapton, Northamptonshire (67587)
7. Sir Walter Lucy Knt., of Dallington, Northamptonshire (67270) +Eleanor l'Arcedekene (67272)
8. Eleanor Lucy (67273) +Sir Thomas Hopton Knt., of Staunton-on-Arrow, Herefordshire (11723)
9. Elizabeth Hopton (26077) +Sir William Stanley KG, of Holt, Denbighshire (26076)
10. Jane Stanley of Holt (26030) +Sir John Warburton Knt, of Arley, Cheshire (26029)
11. Ellen Warburton (91406) +Sir John Carrington of Carrington, Cheshire (91405)
12. Margaret Carrington (91389) +Peter Domville Esq., of Lyme (91388)
13. Gilbert Domville Esq., of Lymme, Cheshire (91385) +Margaret Sneyde (91386)
14. Edward Domville Esq., of Lyme (91381) +Eleanor Leicester (91382)
15. Margaret Domville (91380) +Richard Banks (91379)
16. Adam Banks (9730) +Anne Gerard (91427)
17. Gerrard Banks (I) (9727) +Elizabeth (--?--) (91453)
18. Gerrard Banks (II) (80894) +Ann Stanton (80895)
19. Linn/Lynn Stanton Banks (80892) +Sarah Proctor (80893)
20. Elizabeth Banks (79237) +Joshua Hudson Jr. (79236)
21. Horatio "Aratia" Hudson (79218) +Margaret "Peggy" Banks (79219)
22. Malvina/Melvina Banks Hudson (2218) +Enos M. Clevenger (1894)
23. Carrie Bell Clevenger (1899) +Andrew (Bud) Jackson Vaut (1898)
24. Bert A Vaut Sr. (1679) +Martha Elizabeth "Lizzie" Hart (1680)
25. Lt. Col. Bert A Vaut Jr. (1677) +Lois Lorene Pratt (1678)
26. Gregory Alan Vaut

See more holes here?

Greg

[Greg Vaut]

I have corrected the father of Thomas "the Bastard" to John, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter.

Does anyone have any record of this Thomas ever having ANY children?

Greg

[taf]

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 6:54:54 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> I have corrected the father of Thomas "the Bastard" to John, Earl of Huntingdon, 2nd Duke of Exeter.
>
> Does anyone have any record of this Thomas ever having ANY children?

No. When I looked into the three 'Bastards of Exeter' Thomas was the one I found the least about, but you are really starting at the wrong end of this. You need to start with the immigrant and reevaluate whatever evidence there is for his identification in England, then move to his parents, etc., because the Mollenax/Molyneux descent you just posted also looks hinky, suggesting the entire body of genealogy on your Holland immigrant probably reflects genealogical over-enthusiasm more than historical reality.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Todd.

I understand your point about where to start. Actually, I've been working in both directions at the same time: from Thomas the B forward, and from my immigrant HOLLAND families (Generation #17, below) backward. Generations 12 probably has no link to #11, and Generations 12-16 are suspect. Generations 11 and from 17, on, seem solid (i.e. real people with convincing documentation). There is Find A Grave evidence (highly questionable) for Gens 13-15 (St. Margaret's Churchyard, Westminster), but little else.

11. Thomas "Bastard of Exeter" Holand (18274)
12. Henry Hollande (18267)
13. Henry Hollande (18256) +Hillary Briwarde (18257)

14. John Hollande (4009) +Mary Mollenax (4010)
15. Gabriel Holland (4007) +Mary Pinke (4008) ----- IMMIGRANT
16. Capt. John Holland (4005) +Elizabeth Mary Oudelant (4006)
17. Michael Holland (3950) +Judith (--?--) (3951)
18. Susanna Holland (1744) +Thomas W. Massie Sr. (3941)

I'm paying for the sins of my irrational exuberance in the early days when Rootsweb and then Ancestry appeared and I cloned everything to my "Franken-tree". Your charge of "excess of ingenuity" was in great evidence in many of those early trees. About a decade ago I got serious about documentation and proof, but what we're seeing here is one of many results of early triumphs of enthusiasm over reasoned research. Mea culpa! But I now find I actually enjoy the process of lopping off dead branches, as much as I used to get excited by new (deceptively) green shoots. (If you can't tell, I'm an aggie by profession).

Greg

[taf]

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 10:13:53 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> I understand your point about where to start. Actually,
> I've been working in both directions at the same time:
> from Thomas the B forward,

There is no forward from Thomas the Bastard that I have ever seen. If some family has authentically preserved a tradition of a line of descent from him, that line will be accessible from the family, not from Thomas (just as we know about the descent from Robert the Bastard due to information preserved by the descendants of his heirs, not from researching him in the historical record). If it is real, you will likely only get at it from the bottom up. And if it is false, that will become apparent working bottom up.

> and from my immigrant HOLLAND families (Generation #17,
> below) backward. Generations 12 probably has no link to
> #11, and Generations 12-16 are suspect. Generations 11
> and from 17, on, seem solid (i.e. real people with
> convincing documentation).

Generation 12 may well not have even existed. It is almost impossible to evaluate further, though, without dates and locations.

> There is Find A Grave evidence (highly questionable) for
> Gens 13-15 (St. Margaret's Churchyard, Westminster), but
> little else.

There was a time when Find A Grave served a useful purpose, as a prosopographical collection of burial and tombstone data, but when they allowed the users to convert it into something much more genealogical, allowing individual pages to become venues for ancestor worship and permitting profiles for random ancestors with no known burial location, all linked in tree form without citation, it devolved into just another venue for the worthless echo chamber of crowdsourced internet genealogy sites. Only those details that are directly attributed, with a tombstone photograph or other indication that it is taken directly from burial records should be taken as authentic.

> 11. Thomas "Bastard of Exeter" Holand (18274)
> 12. Henry Hollande (18267)
> 13. Henry Hollande (18256) +Hillary Briwarde (18257)
> 14. John Hollande (4009) +Mary Mollenax (4010)
> 15. Gabriel Holland (4007) +Mary Pinke (4008) ----- IMMIGRANT
> 16. Capt. John Holland (4005) +Elizabeth Mary Oudelant (4006)
> 17. Michael Holland (3950) +Judith (--?--) (3951)
> 18. Susanna Holland (1744) +Thomas W. Massie Sr. (3941)
>
> I'm paying for the sins of my irrational exuberance in

> the early days . . . But I now find I actually enjoy

> the process of lopping off dead branches, as much as
> I used to get excited by new (deceptively) green shoots.

Well, good. keep at it.

taf

[John Higgins]

With respect to the supposed Molyneux/Mollenax descent, I can find no source indicating that Sir Thomas Molyneux of Sefton and his wife Anne Dutton had a son Lawrence.

John Mollenax, at least, appears to be real, as he is identified as "late of Wiggyn, Co. Lancaster, Gent., dec'd" in the marriage license of his daughter Mary and John Hollande - for which see the listing for Mar. 5, 1583/4 on p. 129 in this source: https://books.google.com/books?id=38x4_jHEjb4C&pg=PA129#v=onepage&q&f=false

But the attempt to connect John Mollenax of Wyggyn to the family of Molyneux of Sefton is very doubtful.

[Greg Vaut]

John,

Thank you for this comment on the unlikelihood of Lawrence as a son of John. I had been moving to that conclusion myself.

Probably another dead branch, in need of my pruning shears.

Do you have any other leads on Lawrence, himself?

Appreciate your help!
Greg

[John Higgins]

Just to be clear, in the original descent Lawrence Molyneux was stated to be the father of John Mollenax, not his son. I'm not aware of any information at all on Lawrence Molyneux.

[John Higgins]

I think the Griffith connection in your pedigree 2 above is doubtful - and probably represents some genealogical "grafting" of trees. I can find no evidence that #15 Samuel Griffith the immigrant was connected to the family of Griifth of Burton Agnes, Staffordshire - or indeed that his parentage is known at all.

This looks like another line that needs to be pruned.

[John Higgins]

I think descent #5 above fails at generation 16. According to this post in SGM in Feb. 2014, Margaret Domville had no children by her 2nd husband Richard Banks [or Bankes]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/SRQAQGOGtXY/T86KN6TPG8sJ;context-place=searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/margaret$20domville%7Csort:date

And it's pretty clear from elsewhere on the web that the parentage of Adam Banks is not known. Google "Adam Banks Anne Gerard".

So...it appears that four out of the five descents you've presented are not valid. So it goes....

[Greg Vaut]

John,
Retired with nothing to do but prune the trees. Thanks for keeping me busy in this quarantine period! :-)
Greg

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

According to https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Holland-645, Gabriel Holland's parentage is wrong.

[taf]

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 11:52:48 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> But the attempt to connect John Mollenax of Wyggyn to the family
> of Molyneux of Sefton is very doubtful.

I note that there are wills at Chester for Thomas Molyneux of Wigan Woodhouses, 1612, and Laurence Molyneux of Wigan, 1629. Either of these could be a brother of Mary and son of John, so they may be informative.

As to the Hollands, I find the following that seems at least to be avoiding the most elaborate claims regarding the family of immigrant Gabriel. It should at least provide a starting point. I cannot confirm that the Gabriel who emigrated is the same one born at Westminster, but at a minimum it lays out some of the sources and thinking underlying the immediate pre-immigration generations, back to the immigrant's grandfather (though it doesn't mention the claimed grandmother):

https://books.google.com/books?id=NlEh1qA59X0C&pg=PA150
(if you can view it)

taf

[taf]

On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 3:37:17 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> As to the Hollands, . . . it lays out some of the sources

> and thinking underlying the immediate pre-immigration
> generations, back to the immigrant's grandfather (though
> it doesn't mention the claimed grandmother):
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=NlEh1qA59X0C&pg=PA150

Sorry, I should have read that closer - it traces back to the claimed great-grandfather of the immigrant. Unfortunately, it refers to him leaving a London will but does not indicate the court - I did not find it at PCC but it could be I didn't try the right spelling to search.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Todd,

Thanks for this find. I was able to download pp. 150-162. There's a bit of a leap from naming Henry (with the London will) to enumerating all the children. It reads as though it is based on parish christening records. I was intrigued enough to order the volume in the slim hope that there are some footnotes/notes somewhere in it.

Perhaps the parish records for St. Margaret's, Westminster are on Ancestry and I might find these christenings, as a start.

Thank you very much for identifying this reference for me.

Greg

[taf]

Regarding the Holland ancestry, it should be noted that there were Holland merchants in London by the 14th century, and I see no reason for the Westminster Hollands to be descended from the Bastards of Exeter rather than to these.

John Holland, mercer 1391-1420
Richard Holland, mercer, 1400
William Holland, mercer, 1414-1426
Ralph Holland, tailor/draper, sheriff & alderman, 1419-1480

from Medieval Londoners Database (MLD)

There were also London Hollands with connections to neighboring counties:

In the 1568 London visitation we find William Holland, citizen and mercer, son of John Holland of Surrey and Helenor Shurley, and grandson of Robert Holland, gentleman. He married Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Bolt of London, mercer, and had three sons (no Henry among them) and two daughters at the time.

The 1633 Visitation has a Suffolk Holland pedigree. It starts with the grandfather of the informant, John Holland of Ipswich, bailiff, tracing through his son John Holland of Ipswich, married to Mary, daughter of Anthony Pening of Ipswich, with four sons, Anthony of Kent, Ralph of Ipswich, John of Detford, and the informant and second son, Robert of London, apothecary, married to Hester, daughter of John Pell of Sandhurst. No children are given.

I give these, not so much to suggest a connection, but to indicate that Hollands were not exactly sparse on the ground, such that we need to cherry-pick the one with the best pedigree to be the prospective father of Henry Hollande the elder.

taf

[taf]

Some more London Hollands.

The British Library has a bound volume among the Lansdowne manuscripts that is entitled, "A true and elaborate relation, and exact pedigree, of the Lancashire and Derbishire families of Hollands, with the several Earles and Dukes of the name, and of the Hollands in most countries of the kingdom. Collected by Henry Holland of London, Gent. 1645." (no. 698, fol. 124-135).

https://books.google.com/books?id=LpTFh89XXFQC&pg=RA1-PA160

John Holland, salter: his widow Anne Greenway married John Quarles, draper, d. 1577.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Having had a day to review Samuel Griffith, I now concur that my link for him was faulty. I've severed the link in my database and will update my website tonight with the revision (www.acvancestors.com).

Thanks for your pointing this out to me.

Greg

[Greg Vaut]

Thanks again. I wasn't aware of the Douglas Richardson work on this or the listserve marriage. I had relied on the website "Early Colonial Settlers of Southern Maryland and Virginia's Northern Neck Counties" at https://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I002212&tree=Tree1 which shows two sons for Margaret and her 2nd husband, Richard Banks. There is a lot of supporting information on this webpage, but on reviewing it just now, I can see that none of it actually confirms either of the sons attributed.

Greg

[wjhonson]

Has this been posted?
It is this Domville family of whom you are speaking

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_the_County_Palatine_and_C/DYY1AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=gilbert%20domville%20of%20lymme&dq=gilbert%20domville%20of%20lymme&pg=PA582&printsec=frontcover

[John Higgins]

It appears that you didn't read the earlier posts in this thread very carefully. The pedigree on page 582 of this source doesn't add anything of worth to the discussion here. The short segment of Descent 5 earlier in this thread which involves the Domville family is not at issue here. The question is whether Margaret Domville had any children by her second husband Richard Banks. This source doesn't add anything to resolve that question - if it still is indeed an issue in your mind.

[Greg Vaut]

Are you referring to the 2014 conversation on Hatton of Maryland? In that conversation, Douglas Richardson wrote: "She married (2nd) before 10 April 1653 [LIEUT.] RICHARD BANKS (or BANKES). They had no issue."

After reviewing the 2014 discussion, I wrote: "I had relied on the website "Early Colonial Settlers of Southern Maryland and Virginia's Northern Neck Counties" at https://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I002212&tree=Tree1 which shows two sons for Margaret and her 2nd husband, Richard Banks. There is a lot of supporting information on this webpage, but on reviewing it just now, I can see that none of it actually confirms either of the sons attributed."

I assume that the p. 582 you're referring has to do with the History of the County Palatine link you sent. I haven't been able to review that yet. However, I have yet to find any evidence that Margaret (nee Domville) and Richard Banks had any children, let alone one named Adam. The "Early Colonial Settlers" seems convinced that they had two sons, so I've not given up hope, but still can find any evidence. Have you seen anything that indicates a son? Particularly one named Adam?

Thanks for keeping me honest here.
Greg

[John Higgins]

My response above was in regard to Will Johnson's posting of a link to Ormerod's History of Cheshire, specifically vol. 1 page 582. There was really no need to post this link because the source doesn't provide any information that we don't already have. In particular, it does not indicate that Margaret Domville and Richard Banks had any children. But, since this is a pedigree of the Domville family (not the Banks family), in the structure of the Ormerod work there would be no reason to discuss this issue. Thus there was no useful reason to post this link - especially since Ormerod (or Helsby, the editor of this edition of the work) couldn't even identify the full name of Richard Banks. Will should have recognized this before he posted this link.

[wjhonson]

That was not my point at all. The post was merely to give a source citation to part of the pedigree that has been posted. I don't simply *accept* anyone's posting as being accurate.