A Hugh de Grandmesnil
Jay
Grandmesnil mentioned was Hugh the son of the Hugh de Grandmesnil who
came over with the conqueror or the elder Hugh himself.
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Roger d' Ivry- Also called "Butler". From Ivry la Bataille, Eure.
Married to Adeline, daughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil. Sworn
"brother-in-arms" of Robert d'Oilly. Thought to have been sometime
sheriff of Gloucestershire. Payne held lands of d' Ivry in 3
locations.
Hugh de Grandmesnil- From Grandmesnil, Calvados. Daughter married
Roger d' Ivry. Sheriff of Leicestershire, constable of Leicester
Castle. Went into St. Evroul's Monastery and died there, 1094.
"Some were distinguished by high birth, and took charge of the
external administration of the abbey's [Saint-Évroul's] affairs. For
Drogo, son of Geoffrey of Neufmarché, and Roger, son of Erneis of
Coulonces and nephew of William of Warenne [Rogerius Erneisi de
Coluncis filius; nepos Guillelmi de Guarenna], and Arnold, son of
Humphrey of Tilleul, nephew of Hugh of Grandmesnil by his sister, and
Goisbert the doctor were men of the court, and by their good offices
obtained lands and churches and tithes for the brethren."
Orderic, Lib VI Cap 4:
"So first of all five eminent men left the earl's [Hugh d'Avranches']
household. Their names are Roger, son of Erneis, the nephew of William
of Warenne earl of Surrey [Rogerius Erneisi filius nepos Guillelmi de
Guarenna comitis Suthregiæ], and Arnold, son of Humphrey of Tilleul,
nephew of Hugh of Grandmesnil sheriff of Leicester, with his squire
Guy of Mantes; Drogo, son of Geoffrey of Neufmarché, and Odo, the
earl's chaplain, son of Arnulf of Dol. All these came at the
instigation of Arnold, whose kinfolk had founded the abbey of
Saint-Évroul, came to Saint-Évroul and were gratefully received into
the monastery by Abbot Mainer.
[Orderic says that they left Hugh's court as if fleeing from Sodom
Michael W Cook
heli...@yahoo.com wrote on 15/3/02 9:37 AM:
Don't know if this is a help, but the castle at Hastings was granted after
the conquest to Humphrey de Tilleul, brother-in-law of Hugh de Grantmaisnil,
but he returned to Normandy in 1070.
It was then awarded to Robert, Count of Eu, together with the entire Rape of
Hastings. Robert then rebuilt the castle in stone and founded the Collegiate
Church within the castle walls.
Regards
Michael
Michael W Cook
mwc...@crusader-productions.com
Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings
http://www.castles-abbeys.co.uk
======================================
Chris Phillips
The Hugh referred to is the Domesday tenant, although I think the date
of his death should be 22 February 1098 [as stated by Orderic Vitalis,
vol.4, p.338 (Marjorie Chibnall's edition)].
His sister Adelina, who married Humphrey of Tilleul, is also mentioned
by Orderic Vitalis [vol.3, p.118].
Orderic says that Hugh the son of Hugh died around the same time as
William the Conqueror (i.e. c.1087), and was buried in the chapter
house of St-Evroul [vol.4, pp.113,338-40].
Chris Phillips
Jay
> The Hugh referred to is the Domesday tenant, although I think the date
> of his death should be 22 February 1098 [as stated by Orderic Vitalis,
> vol.4, p.338 (Marjorie Chibnall's edition)].
How is the Domesday tenant related (if known) to the companion of the
Conqueror and his son Hugh?
Chris Phillips
> In my research of the la Zouche family, I have found that Hugh de
> Grandmesnil held Essebi/Ashby before the de Belmess family and Thorpe
> Ernauld "which included Brentyngby, Thurnby, Bushby and Houghton" and
> subnsequently came into the possession of the de Boscos of which there
were
> four Ernaulds, all benefactors of the Abbey of Leicester. The History and
> Antiquities of Leicestershire continues, stating that Hugh was married to
an
> Adeliza. Does anyone have the last name of his wife?
Katharine Keats-Rohan has about a page and a half on this Hugh de
Grandmesnil in "Domesday People" (pp.262, 263).
His wife, Adeliza, was the daughter of Ivo, count of Beaumont-sur-Oise.
The Grandmesnils are unusually well documented in Orderic Vitalis'
"Ecclesiastical History", because Hugh and his brother Robert refounded the
abbey of Saint-Evroul, where Orderic was a monk. Marjorie Chibnall's
edition/translation (1969-1980) contains a pedigree and some additional
discussion, as well as what's said in Orderic's text.
The genealogical bones, as given by Keats-Rohan, are:
Robert of Grandmesnil (d.1040)
= Hawise, daughter of Giroie, lord of Echauffour and Montreuil-l'Argillé,
and sister of William fitz Giroie
(she married secondly William, son of Archbishop Robert of Rouen)
Their sons:
Hugh of Grandmesnil (d. 22 February 1098)
= Adeliza (d. 11 July 1091), daughter of Ivo, count of Beaumont-sur-Oise
Robert, abbot of St-Evroul
Arnald
Children of Hugh and Adeliza:
Robert (d.c. 1136)
William
Hugh
Ivo
Aubrey
Adelina = Robert d'Ivry
Rohais = Robert de Courcy
Matilda = Hugh de Montpinçon
Agnes = William de Sai
Hawise
I'd guess that the lands came to the de Boscos through the ("Beaumont")
earls of Leicester, who acquired the Grandmesnil lands in England when
Robert, Earl of Leicester (d.1190), married Pernel, Hugh de Grandmesnil's
great granddaughter. Pernel was the daughter of a William de Grandmesnil,
who was probably the son of Hugh's eldest son Robert (see
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol7.shtml#leicester).
The de Boscos were connected with the earls of Leicester. One Arnold de
Bosco (or de Bois) was a steward of Robert, Earl of Leicester (d.1168), and
was granted lands in Biddlesden by him in the 1140s [Victoria County History
Bucks vol.1, p.365, vol.4, p.155].
Chris Phillips
D. Spencer Hines
If this all pans out ---- a Great Gargantuan Gaggle [G^3] of folks
[hundreds of thousands, at the *least*] with English ancestors are
descended from this presumed Companion of the Conqueror, Hugh de
Grandmesnil. He would be my 26th Great-Grandfather.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Chris Phillips" <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk> wrote in message
news:002a01c1cd2b$2c6ccc20$e70b86d9@oemcomputer...
Chris Phillips
> > The Hugh referred to is the Domesday tenant, although I think the date
> > of his death should be 22 February 1098 [as stated by Orderic Vitalis,
> > vol.4, p.338 (Marjorie Chibnall's edition)].
Jay replied:
> How is the Domesday tenant related (if known) to the companion of the
> Conqueror and his son Hugh?
Sorry for not being clear.
The companion of the Conqueror is the same person as the Domesday tenant.
(He is one of the small number whose presence at the Battle of Hastings is
attested by William of Poitiers.)
Looking at A.J.Camp's "My Ancestors came with the Conqueror", I realise that
what I said about the Earls of Leicester and the English Grandmesnil lands
wasn't correct. It was the _Norman_ Grandmesnil lands that Robert, Earl of
Leicester, acquired on his marriage with Pernel. His grandfather Robert had
acquired the English Grandmesnil lands early in the century, after Hugh de
Grandmesnil's son Ivo had mortgaged them to him. (So the intervening Robert
could have granted former Grandmesnil lands to the de Boscos around the
1140s, the same period he granted Biddlesden to Arnold de Bosco.)
Chris Phillips
D. Spencer Hines
egg roll.
Robert de Beaumont, later 1st Earl of Leicester, is also a Companion of
the Conqueror, according to William of Poitiers and CP [XII(1):Appendix
L]
Indeed, Robert de Beaumont is the first COC listed ---- a singular
honour indeed. He seems to have been only about 17-20 at the Battle of
Hastings. How'd you like to experience that day with your ancestor?
Just hop into your Time Machine with Guy Pearce and off you go.
This first Earl of Leicester is reportedly the Grandfather of Robert de
Beaumont, the 3rd Earl of Leicester ---- who married Petronille
["Pernel"] de Grandmesnil, circa 1155.
Two COCS-for-one.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Chris Phillips" <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk> wrote in message
news:018501c1cd37$06c2a740$e70b86d9@oemcomputer...
Jay
> Sorry for not being clear.
>
> The companion of the Conqueror is the same person as the Domesday tenant.
> (He is one of the small number whose presence at the Battle of Hastings is
> attested by William of Poitiers.)
No problem Chris, with people having different levels of knowledge of
some of the persons involved it is hard sometimes not to whoosh over
the heads of some participants, which is why I asked for the clarity.
I figured with some twenty years separating the conquest and the
Doomsday book, it was better not to assume that they were the same
people. I am glad they turned out to be the same guy, saves me having
to stick yet another Hugh de Grandmesnil in the database :-).
Jay
> With two Companions of the Conqueror [COC] here you get a complimentary
> egg roll.
>
> Robert de Beaumont, later 1st Earl of Leicester, is also a Companion of
> the Conqueror, according to William of Poitiers and CP [XII(1):Appendix
> L]
>
> Indeed, Robert de Beaumont is the first COC listed ---- a singular
> honour indeed. He seems to have been only about 17-20 at the Battle of
> Hastings. How'd you like to experience that day with your ancestor?
>
> Just hop into your Time Machine with Guy Pearce and off you go.
>
> This first Earl of Leicester is reportedly the Grandfather of Robert de
> Beaumont, the 3rd Earl of Leicester ---- who married Petronille
> ["Pernel"] de Grandmesnil, circa 1155.
>
It would be an interesting time travel experiment until some guy swung
an axe at you. One question for the group. Was the above Robert de
Beaumont really the 1st Earl of Leicester or did that honor really
belong to his son? I have read that he held the title the Count of
Meula, but became possessed the towns of fiefs of Leicester by charter
from Ivo de Grandmesnil. Was posession of that charter enough to make
him the Earl of Leicester de jure, or was he merely styled that in
retrospect because of his de facto possession of the rights and
privileges of the Earldom. I don't have the answer so I look to the
skilled medieval scholars that inhabit this group.
D. Spencer Hines
He was so styled in retrospect ---- which is fair enough.
CP makes him 1st Earl of Leicester.
No fear of axes.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Jay" <heli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d51b1746.02031...@posting.google.com...
Chris Phillips
One question for the group. Was the above Robert de
> Beaumont really the 1st Earl of Leicester or did that honor really
> belong to his son? I have read that he held the title the Count of
> Meula, but became possessed the towns of fiefs of Leicester by charter
> from Ivo de Grandmesnil. Was posession of that charter enough to make
> him the Earl of Leicester de jure, or was he merely styled that in
> retrospect because of his de facto possession of the rights and
> privileges of the Earldom.
According to the Complete Peerage, the lands Robert obtained from Ivo de
Grandmesnil included only a quarter of the town of Leicester, the other
three quarters being granted to him by the king. CP is clear that, in
theory, he thus became earl of Leicester, but he was styled by his French
title, count of Meulan (except in a late - and suspect - copy of one
charter, where both titles are used). After his death, the two titles were
separated between his twin sons Waleran, who became count of Meulan, and
Robert, who became earl of Leicester.
Chris Phillips
William Addams Reitwiesner
It's a retrospective interpretation of the events. He was never styled
Earl of Leicester during his lifetime, but (based on his grandson's
assertions) it's easier for us to consider him as such.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com