Brian Boru's families
Suzanne Doig
of Ireland, the mothers of those children, the order in which those
mothers married Brian, and the other marriages of those mothers. Below
is what I have so far. Most of the info is drawn from Stewart
Baldwin's informative posts on the ancestry of Eve of Leinster and
Radnaillt of Dublin. The other main source is Donough O'Brien 'History
of the O'Briens from Brian Boroimhe AD 1000 to AD 1945' (London,
1949). I cannot vouch for the information in this book as most
genealogical assertions for this period are not source-noted (info
from this book marked #).
WIVES OF BRIAN BORU - in what order??:
a) Echrad ingen Carlusa
i) Tadg mac Briain / Teige O'Brien; married Mor ingen Gilla
Brigte Ua Mael Muaid. Tadg died 1023. #Joint ruler of Munster
with half-brother Donnchad until murdered in 1023.
b) Gormlaith ingen Murchada, d. 1030
i) Donnchad mac Briain / Donough O'Brien, King of Munster
1014-1063; married (?2) Driella. Donnchad died in Rome in
1064/1065.
c) Unknown wife/wives
i) Murchad mac Briain / Murrough O'Brien, born #c951; killed on
23 April 1014 at the Battle of Clontarf, Dublin, Ireland. #15
year old son Turlough also killed in battle.
ii) #Conor/Conan O'Brien.
iii) #Flann O'Brien.
iv) Domnall mac Briain / Donald O'Brien, died in 1052.
v) Slani ingen Briain; married Sihtric 'Silkbeard' Olafsson, King
of Dublin (below).
OTHER MARRIAGES OF BRIAN'S WIVES
* Echrad ingen Carlusa (daughter of Carlus mac Ailella, King ui Aeda
Odba) married [in what order?]:
a) Brian Boru
i) Tadg mac Briain / Teige O'Brien (above)
b) Gilla Patraic
i) Aife ingen Gilla Patraic; married Donnchad Máel na mBo, King of
Ui Cheinnselaig.
c) Cinaed Ua Morda
i) Amargen Ua Morda, King of Loigsi; died 1026.
* Gormlaith ingen Murchada, died 1030, married [in what order?]:
a) Olaf Cuarán Sitricsson, King of Dublin, d. 981
i) Sihtric ‘Silkbeard’ Olafsson, King of Dublin, died 1042;
married Slani ingen Briain (above)
ii) ?Gofraid Olafsson, died in 963.
iii) ?Dubgilla
iv) ?Dubgall Olafsson, died in 1014.
v) ?Harald Olafsson, died in 999.
b) Brian Boru
i) Donnchad mac Briain (above)
c) ??
d) ??
e) ??
f) ??
Our Irish ancestors were clearly into family values - the more
families the more value! Keeping track of one's siblings,
half-siblings, and step-siblings must have been complicated in those
days.
Suzanne
- * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
* Dr Suzanne Doig sm...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz *
* Remove '*!*' from anti-spam reply-to address *
* NO UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL *
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Stewart Baldwin
>I am trying to sort out the children of Brian Boru/Boroimhe, High King
>of Ireland, the mothers of those children, the order in which those
>mothers married Brian, and the other marriages of those mothers. Below
>is what I have so far. Most of the info is drawn from Stewart
>Baldwin's informative posts on the ancestry of Eve of Leinster and
>Radnaillt of Dublin. The other main source is Donough O'Brien 'History
>of the O'Briens from Brian Boroimhe AD 1000 to AD 1945' (London,
>1949). I cannot vouch for the information in this book as most
>genealogical assertions for this period are not source-noted (info
>from this book marked #).
>WIVES OF BRIAN BORU - in what order??:
In general, the Irish sources make it difficult to determine the order
of marriages, even in cases when it is known which children were by
which wife.
>a) Echrad ingen Carlusa
> i) Tadg mac Briain / Teige O'Brien; married Mor ingen Gilla
> Brigte Ua Mael Muaid. Tadg died 1023. #Joint ruler of Munster
> with half-brother Donnchad until murdered in 1023.
>b) Gormlaith ingen Murchada, d. 1030
> i) Donnchad mac Briain / Donough O'Brien, King of Munster
> 1014-1063; married (?2) Driella. Donnchad died in Rome in
> 1064/1065.
>c) Unknown wife/wives
> i) Murchad mac Briain / Murrough O'Brien, born #c951; killed on
> 23 April 1014 at the Battle of Clontarf, Dublin, Ireland. #15
> year old son Turlough also killed in battle.
> ii) #Conor/Conan O'Brien.
> iii) #Flann O'Brien.
> iv) Domnall mac Briain / Donald O'Brien, died in 1052.
> v) Slani ingen Briain; married Sihtric 'Silkbeard' Olafsson, King
> of Dublin (below).
The article "Brian Boruma, King of Ireland" by John Ryan, in "North
Munster Studies" (Thomond Archaelogical Society, Limerick, 1967), pp.
355-374, at pp. 365-6, lists Brian's wives as (1) Mór (or Mor with an
accent on the "o" if that didn't print right), daughter of Eiden of
the Uí Fiachrach Aidne, by whom he had Murchad, Conchobar [later form
Conor - the form "Conan" is an error] and Flann; (2) Gormflaith, with
the same child listed by you; (3) Echrad, with the same child listed
by you; and (4) Dubchoblaig, daughter of king Cathal of Connacht, a
political marriage late in life which produced no children. I do not
know the sources for fourth wife given in this article, nor the
evidence for the order in which the author places the wives. Echrad
and Gormflaith both appear in the Ban Shenchus. (BS for short. See
my Eve of Leinster posting for more details on that source.) Wife
number 4 does not appear in the index to Dobbs's version of the Ban
Shenchus, so the source (not stated by Ryan) is apparently some other
genealogical document. One version of BS states that "Marcad &
Concobur & Fland" were the sons of a daughter (unnamed) of Edin mac
Clerig. This is right after mentioning that Gormflaith was the mother
of Donnchad, so it is apparent that Brian's three sons of those names
were intended, even though their father was not explicitly named in
the manuscript. I do not know the source for the name of the first
wife as supplied by Ryan. (By the way, Ryan give the identity of
Brian's maternal grandfather incorrectly, so he could have been using
unreliable late sources for the unconfirmed items.)
>OTHER MARRIAGES OF BRIAN'S WIVES
>* Echrad ingen Carlusa (daughter of Carlus mac Ailella, King ui Aeda
>Odba) married [in what order?]:
>a) Brian Boru
> i) Tadg mac Briain / Teige O'Brien (above)
>b) Gilla Patraic
> i) Aife ingen Gilla Patraic; married Donnchad Máel na mBo, King of
> Ui Cheinnselaig.
>c) Cinaed Ua Morda
> i) Amargen Ua Morda, King of Loigsi; died 1026.
One version of BS adds a son Domnall by the marriage to Cinaed.
BS also gives Echrad a fourth marriage to Dunlaing mac Tuathail, king
of Laigin (d. 1014 after a reign of less than one year), by whom she
was mother of a son "Echdond" king of Laigin (perhaps same as Murchad,
d. 1042?) and a daughter Aibeand, mother (by an unstated father) of
Domnall Ua Fergail.
>* Gormlaith ingen Murchada, died 1030, married [in what order?]:
probably first to Olaf, then to Brian, going by their death dates.
>a) Olaf Cuarán Sitricsson, King of Dublin, d. 981
> i) Sihtric ‘Silkbeard’ Olafsson, King of Dublin, died 1042;
> married Slani ingen Briain (above)
Sitric is the only known child of Olaf and Gormflaith. The only other
child of Olaf whose mother's identity is known was his son and
successor as king of Dublin, Glun Iarainn, whose mother was Olaf's
wife Donnflaith (source: BS). None of the mothers of any other
children of Olaf are identified in the sources.
> ii) ?Gofraid Olafsson, died in 963.
> iii) ?Dubgilla
Probably just the same person as Dubgall
> iv) ?Dubgall Olafsson, died in 1014.
> v) ?Harald Olafsson, died in 999.
>b) Brian Boru
> i) Donnchad mac Briain (above)
>c) ??
>d) ??
>e) ??
>f) ??
>Our Irish ancestors were clearly into family values - the more
>families the more value! Keeping track of one's siblings,
>half-siblings, and step-siblings must have been complicated in those
>days.
And we can be very grateful that we have the Ban Shenchus, which is
our main source for all of these complicated Irish marriage
entanglements.
Stewart Baldwin
Links4two
Suzanne,
The young adult book, Brian Boru, Emporer of Ireland by Morgan Llywellyn
mentions four wives for Brian and does a pretty good job of telling whose
children are whose. Of course Morgan Llywellyn mentions her sources. However,
in her books she calls Slani, "Emer". I would be curious to know why. In that
book, Slani is the daughter of Brian's second wife, Echrad. Mor is his first
wife. I think Morgan Llywelllyn sticks close to facts in her genealogy so it
would be interesting to talk to her. Does anyone know how to do this?
Susan Hammond
rleutner
what point in time/the record we cross the line back from
"modern" ideas of monogamy and serial marriage to complex
compromises between Church law and tradition. In other words,
while the quest to identify which child of Brian (or Charles
the Great, for that matter) is of which mother is
genealogically vital, when do we start complicating scholarly
life unnecessarily by ruling out polygamy? (Or am I way off
base in imagining any moment at all in historic, documentable
European time/space when polygamy might still have existed,
though disguised by the chroniclers?)
Thanks. I'll hang up and take my answer on the air. :)
Bob Leutner Iowa City IA
robert-...@uiowa.edu
Suzanne Doig
Baldwin) wrote:
>The article "Brian Boruma, King of Ireland" by John Ryan, in "North
>Munster Studies" (Thomond Archaelogical Society, Limerick, 1967), pp.
>355-374, at pp. 365-6, lists Brian's wives as
Does Ryan or Ban Shenchus tell us the mother of Brian's remaining
children:
a) Domnall mac Briain / Donald O'Brien, died in 1052.
b) Slani ingen Briain; married Sihtric 'Silkbeard' Olafsson, King
Dublin.
Ditto, do they tell us the names of Gormlaith ingen Murchada's other
husbands (in addition to Olaf Cuarán Sitricsson and Brian Boru?).
Or are my notes showing her as having six husbands erroneous?
Stewart Baldwin
>This isn't a hostile question at all, but I am wondering at
>what point in time/the record we cross the line back from
>"modern" ideas of monogamy and serial marriage to complex
>compromises between Church law and tradition. In other words,
>while the quest to identify which child of Brian (or Charles
>the Great, for that matter) is of which mother is
>genealogically vital, when do we start complicating scholarly
>life unnecessarily by ruling out polygamy? (Or am I way off
>base in imagining any moment at all in historic, documentable
>European time/space when polygamy might still have existed,
>though disguised by the chroniclers?)
These are fair questions, with no good answers. It has always been
the case in most societies that a significant percentage of
individuals are "de facto" polygamous despite any existing legal
conventions which declare monogamy to be the norm. Because concepts
such as marriage and illegitimacy are often vague (especially in
earlier socities for which we have less data), and subject to legal
manipulation on the part of those who have the power to do so (for
example, the well known case in which the Beauforts were retroactively
declared to be legitimate), there seems to be a rather continuous
progression from the polygamous early medieval aristocrat, to the late
medieval aristocrat with one official wife and several acknowledged
mistresses, and the modern aristocrat with a wife and unknown number
of mistresses on the sly, often with no clear boundary between one and
the other.
In the case of Ireland during the period under consideration, there
are two interesting things to note. First is that the concept of
illegitimacy seems to be absent (at least in the pre-Norman period
with which I am most familiar). Second is that women, at least among
the aristocracy, seem to have just as much of a proclivity to play
"mix-and-match-partners" as the men. Of course, all of this tends to
blur the distinction between polygamy on one side and marriage plus
mistresses on the other.
Stewart Baldwin
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 9/30/98 11:11:19 PM, rleu...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu writes:
<<This isn't a hostile question at all, but I am wondering at
what point in time/the record we cross the line back from
"modern" ideas of monogamy and serial marriage to complex
compromises between Church law and tradition>>
There are different times for different societies. A clue to your question is
that even in the time of Charlemagne, there is uncertainty as to the marriage
status with some of his wives because of the non-Christian marriages and
traditions.
Here are some excerpt quotations from the Oct 1998 issue of THE PLANTAGENET
CONNECTION:
Jo Ann McNamara
jmcn...@shiva.hunter.cuny.edu
I'm not sure that there is any answer to your question, Ken. Before Suzanne
wrote her book, she and I collaborated on an article on that very question
called "Marriage and Divorce in the Frankish Kingdom," included in Susan
Stuard's Women in Medieval Society (U of Penn Press, 1976). The Pope wrote to
Charles trying to prevent him from marrying the Lombard princess for political
reasons. He claimed to have been informed that Charles already had a perfectly
good Frankish wife which he thought should discourage him from "committing
incest" with a leprous Lombard. The pope's grasp of the rules seems to have
been a little weak in itself and it is by no means clear that he knew what he
was talking about regarding Charles' marriage. To be best of my knowledge, no
other source is any clearer about that relationship. Our larger argument was
that a clear definition of marriage within the church did not exist before the
efforts of Hincmar of Reims to formulate one in order to enforce the rules
against divorce.
Paul Halsall
Fordham University
The mistake is to think that marriage is a universal institution with a
constant meaning. But, if in other discussions, we have argued that certain
pairing ceremonies in the past cannot constitute marriage, and that attempts
to do so are simply retrojections of modern concerns, I suggest we do the same
with Charlemagne and company!
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
_____________________HT COMMUNICATIONS____________________
PO Box 1401 Arvada, CO 80001 USA
Voice: 303-420-4888 Fax: 303-420-4845 e-mail: K...@AOL.com
Homepage: http://members.aol.com/TPConnect/Page2.html
Associated with: Thompson Starr International
[Films ... Representation ... Publishing ... Marketing]
Francisco Antonio Doria
Let me add: not just in Ireland; in Portugal too. While formally there
was a legal difference - with lots of fine shadings - between legitimate,
bastard, illegitimate, adulterine, damned, and so on (all adjectives
refer to issue), in practice there was none, or almost none.
Chico Doria
>rleutner <rleu...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>
>>This isn't a hostile question at all, but I am wondering at
>>what point in time/the record we cross the line back from
>>"modern" ideas of monogamy and serial marriage to complex
Stewart Baldwin
>On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:10:44 GMT, sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart
>Baldwin) wrote:
>>The article "Brian Boruma, King of Ireland" by John Ryan, in "North
>>Munster Studies" (Thomond Archaelogical Society, Limerick, 1967), pp.
>>355-374, at pp. 365-6, lists Brian's wives as
><snip>
>Does Ryan or Ban Shenchus tell us the mother of Brian's remaining
>children:
>a) Domnall mac Briain / Donald O'Brien, died in 1052.
>b) Slani ingen Briain; married Sihtric 'Silkbeard' Olafsson, King
>Dublin.
Apparently, no data is available on the mother of Domnall. That is
certainly the case for Slani, who appears by name only in the Welsh
records, without her mother being named. (She is also mentioned
without a name or a mother in the twelfth century source "Coghad
Gaedhel re Gallaibh".)
>Ditto, do they tell us the names of Gormlaith ingen Murchada's other
>husbands (in addition to Olaf Cuarán Sitricsson and Brian Boru?).
>Or are my notes showing her as having six husbands erroneous?
The only other husband I have seen attributed to her is Máel
Sechnaill, king of Meath, who was both predecessor and successor of
Brian as king of Ireland. See the article on "Maelsechlainn II" in
the Dictionary of National Biography. Of the sources cited there,
their data probably came from "Coghad Gaedhel re Gallaibh" (London,
1857), where the editor, J. H. Todd, makes the statement in the
introduction, without citing a source. (The claim does not appear in
the text of CGG itself.) I think the information is probably correct,
although I cannot cite a primary source at the moment.
Stewart Baldwin
Up2N...@aol.com
any of her books yet (but it looks as if I should), but my daughter sent me
some info gleaned from one of her books ("Pride of Lions") that has a daughter
of Brian Boru by one of his marriages being wed to Malcolm II of Scotland.
Does that sound right to anyone--and what was the name of this wife of Brian?
Doris Stanford
Up2N...@aol.com
James C. Woodard
Stewart Baldwin wrote in message <6v3kqt$d9n$1...@news.campus.mci.net>...
>sm...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz (Suzanne Doig) wrote:
>
snip
>>Ditto, do they tell us the names of Gormlaith ingen Murchada's other
>>husbands (in addition to Olaf Cuarán Sitricsson and Brian Boru?).
>>Or are my notes showing her as having six husbands erroneous?
I have seen Gormflaith/Gormlaith referenced as "she of the six husbands" but
I can't remember where, and the only husbands I have identified for her are
the three mentioned by Stewart. Perhaps some one else can give us the
reference to the six husbands.
Jim
Stewart Baldwin
The books of Morgan Llywelyn are FICTION, and as such, have no value
whatsoever as a source for genealogy. I do not recall ever seeing a
claim (prior to the above) that Malcolm II married a daughter of
Brian, and I suspect that this supposed daughter is nothing more than
literary licence on the part of the author.
Stewart Baldwin
roisi...@my-dejanews.com
sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
> Up2N...@aol.com wrote:
>
> The books of Morgan Llywelyn are FICTION, and as such, have no value
> whatsoever as a source for genealogy. I do not recall ever seeing a
> claim (prior to the above) that Malcolm II married a daughter of
> Brian, and I suspect that this supposed daughter is nothing more than
> literary licence on the part of the author.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
On behalf of Morgan Llywelyn, I would like to clear up any confusion
concerning "literary license" where the family history of Brian Boru is
concerned. I forwarded Mr. Baldwin's above to response her and here is how
she replied.
"....his knowledge of history is obviously not as thorough as he thinks
it is, I refer him first to the non-fiction biography
BRIAN BORU, KING OF IRELAND, by Roger Chatterton-Newman, published by
Anvil Books in 1982. On page 144 Newman states "The Scottish marriage,
arranged before Brian became Ard Ri, was politically sound, for his
son-in-law, who ascended the Scottish throne as Malcolm II in 1005, and
who reigned for twenty nine years until his murder at Glamis - a deed
transferred by Shakespeare to the next reign - was an accomplished
ruler... In later years, Brian's son and eventual heir, Donnchadh, was
to marry Driella, daughter of Godwin of Wessex and sister of Harold II,
last of the Saxon kings."
"Newman does, of course, quote all his research sources for these
statements, including the Royal College of Heralds. I also refer Mr.
Baldwin to the histories of Scotland by J.D. Mackie, Grahman and Anne
Richie, and Peter and Fiona Somerset Fry.
"...I do not take 'literary license' with history. My reputation
depends upon my research and accuracy."
Hope this clears up the matter.
Roisin
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Links4two
Thank you very much for following up on Brian Boru's families. I was one
who responded that based on Morgan Llywelyn's genealogical information (I added
that she gave her sources)that Brian's daughter did indeed marry King Malcolm.
We who enjoy historical fiction also check the author's notes for what is fact
and what parts are fiction.
I would be interested in knowing if Llywelyn's sources say whether the
mother of Slani was actually Eadraich (Achra) who is named as Brian's second
wife in the young adult version of "Lion of Ireland", which is called, "Brian
Boru, Emporer of Ireland"?
Susan Hammond
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Earl of Sandwich: 'Pon my honor, Wilkes, I don't know
whether you'll die on the gallows or of the pox.' John Wilkes [1727-1797]:
'That must depend, my Lord, upon whether I first embrace your Lordship's
principles, or your Lordship's mistresses.'" --- Sir Charles Petrie, 'The
Four Georges' [1935]
Links4two wrote in message <19981014145951...@ng55.aol.com>...
>Roisin,
> Thank you very much for following up on Brian Boru's families. I was
one
>who responded that based on Morgan Llywelyn's genealogical information (I
added
>that she gave her sources)that Brian's daughter did indeed marry King
Malcolm.
>We who enjoy historical fiction also check the author's notes for what is
fact
>and what parts are fiction.
And the author's notes are a safe and sure guide as to what is fact?
Stewart Baldwin
>In article <6v8mqg$9b0$1...@news.campus.mci.net>,
> sb...@auburn.campus.mci.net (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
>> Up2N...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> The books of Morgan Llywelyn are FICTION, and as such, have no value
>> whatsoever as a source for genealogy. I do not recall ever seeing a
>> claim (prior to the above) that Malcolm II married a daughter of
>> Brian, and I suspect that this supposed daughter is nothing more than
>> literary licence on the part of the author.
>>
>> Stewart Baldwin
>>
>On behalf of Morgan Llywelyn, I would like to clear up any confusion
>concerning "literary license" where the family history of Brian Boru is
>concerned. I forwarded Mr. Baldwin's above to response her and here is how
>she replied.
Thank you for forwarding Morgan Llywelyn's remarks to the newsgroup so
that we can all read them. My response to her remarks appears below.
Since she is apparently not a follower of this newsgroup, please feel
free to forward these remarks to her, so that she might have a chance
to respond.
>"....his knowledge of history is obviously not as thorough as he thinks
>it is, I refer him first to the non-fiction biography
>BRIAN BORU, KING OF IRELAND, by Roger Chatterton-Newman, published by
>Anvil Books in 1982. On page 144 Newman states "The Scottish marriage,
>arranged before Brian became Ard Ri, was politically sound, for his
>son-in-law, who ascended the Scottish throne as Malcolm II in 1005, and
>who reigned for twenty nine years until his murder at Glamis - a deed
>transferred by Shakespeare to the next reign - was an accomplished
>ruler... In later years, Brian's son and eventual heir, Donnchadh, was
>to marry Driella, daughter of Godwin of Wessex and sister of Harold II,
>last of the Saxon kings."
>"Newman does, of course, quote all his research sources for these
>statements, including the Royal College of Heralds. I also refer Mr.
>Baldwin to the histories of Scotland by J.D. Mackie, Grahman and Anne
>Richie, and Peter and Fiona Somerset Fry.
>"...I do not take 'literary license' with history. My reputation
>depends upon my research and accuracy."
First, let me point out that my comments above regarding the use of
fictional works were not intended to single out any author in
particular, but are true of all fictional works as a whole. Since
Morgan Llywelyn's books are shelved in the fiction section of the
library, I made the quite natural assumption that they were to be
regarded as fictional works. Thus, when I saw the claim that Malcolm
II of Scotland had married a daughter of Brian Boruma, a claim which
is not present in such standard references as "The Handbook of British
Chronology", "The Dictionary of National Biography", or Anderson's
"Early Sources of Scottish History" (all of which would certainly have
mentioned such a relationship if they were aware of it, and thought
the source reliable), I felt that it was a reasonable assumption on my
part that this was the type of "literary licence" which is often used
by writers of historical novels.
We have now been informed that Ms. Llywelyn does "not take 'literary
license' with history." Fair enough. Let us judge her material on
that basis. The book in question which mentioned the supposed
marriage of Malcolm with a daughter of Brian was "Pride of Lions" (New
York, 1996). Although that book does have a bibliography, it does not
cite which sources in the bibliography have been used to document the
various relationships, and it is therefore still true that this book
is not usable as a source for genealogical relationships.
Is the claim that Malcolm married a daughter of Brian true? If it is,
I have still seen no supporting evidence. Of the books mentioned
above by Ms. Llywelyn, I was only only able to locate copies of the
ones by Mackie and Fry. I had interpreted Ms. Llywelyn's statements
above as implying that the books she mentioned somehow supported her
claim that Malcolm married a daughter of Brian, but I was apparently
incorrect in my interpretation, since neither of the two books I could
find mention any such marriage. (I acknowledge that, since I did not
have time to check the books cover-to-cover, I only checked those
pages in these two books which were listed under Malcolm II in the
index. Neither book mentioned Brian in the index.) I would be
interested in knowing what relevance these books had to the matter at
hand, and the page numbers I should have been looking at.
As for the claims made in the book by Roger Chatterton-Newman, it is
difficult to comment without knowing what the supposed evidence is,
other than to remark that if there is nothing better than the "Royal
College of Heralds" to support the case, then I think that the claim
can likely be dismissed as a late invention. I am also dubious about
the claimed marriage of Donnchad (Donough) mac Briain to a daughter of
Godwine of Wessex. Perhaps someone in this newsgroup who has access
to Roger Chatterton-Newman's book can fill us in on the sources which
were cited for both the claimed Scottish and Wessex marriages.
With regard to the genealogical table that appears at the beginning of
"Pride of Lions" (abbreviated "PoL" below), let me note the following
errors, along with the appropriate citations to the primary sources.
Abbreviations for the sources are as follows:
CGH = "Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae", edited by M. A. O'Brien
(Dublin, 1962)
BS = "The Ban-shenchus", edited by M. E. Dobbs, Revue Celtique 47
(1930); 282-339, 48 (1931), 163-234; and 49 (1932), 437-489, all
citations here coming from vol. 48.
1. Domnall (d. 1012) was the son of Brian, not a Norse foster son. He
is mentioned among the sons of Brian in the genealogies [CGH, p. 238,
taken from Rawl. B.502, 152b, and LL (The Book of Leinster) 322f] and
at his obituary in the Annals of Inisfallen under the year 1012.
2. Tadg (Teigue in PoL) mac Briain was a half-brother of Brian's three
sons Murchad (Murrough in PoL), Flann, and Conchobar (Conor in PoL).
The mother of the latter three was a daughter (name not given in any
primary source known to me) of Eiden mac Clérich. [CGH, p. 238 as
above, and BS 228]. Tadg's mother was Echrad, daughter of Carrlus mac
Ailella [BS 189, 228]. So, it is incorrect to show Tadg as coming
from the same marriage as the other three sons.
3. The wife of Tadg mac Briain, and mother of his son Tairrdelbach,
was Mór (not Maeve, as in PoL, which is an Anglicization of the Irish
name Medb, a distinct name). [BS 189, 228-9].
4. Murchad (d. 1068) was the son of Donnchad (Donough in PoL) mac
Briain by his wife Gormlaith, daughter of Ua Dondacain [BS 190], and
was not the son of a daughter of Godwine of Wessex, as shown in the
table.
5. Brian's daughter who married Sitric of Dublin was called Slani
[From the genealogy of her Welsh great-grandson Gruffudd ap Cynan in
the History of Gruffudd ap Cynan, of which the relevant part is given
in Bartrum's "Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts" (Cardiff, 1960)]. The
Irish sources apparently never give her name, and I have never seen
her called "Emer" in any of the primary sources.
6. The Dál Cais genealogy can hardly be regarded as historical back to
the third century, as the table seems to imply.
In addition to the above errors, there are a number of other items for
which I know of no evidence, and require documentation before accepted
as true. They are as follows:
A. What evidence is there for the following claimed marriages?
1. Of Malcolm to a daughter of Brian?
2. Of "Cian of Desmond" to a daughter of Brian?
3. Of a woman named Fidelma to Murchad mac Briain?
4. Of Donnchad mac Briain to a woman named Neassa?
5. Of Donnchad mac Briain to a daughter of Godwine of Wessex?
(Of course, 1, 2, and 5 are the most important here.)
B. What evidence is there for the numerous birthdates given in the
table?
Given that the above errors show that there are problems with the
genealogical table in PoL, I think that the above questions are fair
ones.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
> I am also dubious about
> the claimed marriage of Donnchad (Donough) mac Briain to a daughter of
> Godwine of Wessex. Perhaps someone in this newsgroup who has access
> to Roger Chatterton-Newman's book can fill us in on the sources which
> were cited for both the claimed Scottish and Wessex marriages.
While I have not seen this source, I have a vague memory of Kelley
mentioning such a possible relationship in one of the endnotes to his
Eva article. I will give it a look and see if I can find it (I will be
lucky to find the Kelley article, let alone one small footnote in it).
taf
Stewart Baldwin
>Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>> I am also dubious about
>> the claimed marriage of Donnchad (Donough) mac Briain to a daughter of
>> Godwine of Wessex. Perhaps someone in this newsgroup who has access
>> to Roger Chatterton-Newman's book can fill us in on the sources which
>> were cited for both the claimed Scottish and Wessex marriages.
>While I have not seen this source, I have a vague memory of Kelley
>mentioning such a possible relationship in one of the endnotes to his
>Eva article. I will give it a look and see if I can find it (I will be
>lucky to find the Kelley article, let alone one small footnote in it).
The statement is in the main text of Kelley's article "The Ancestry of
Eve of Leinster" [TG 1 (1980). 4-27, at p. 23]. The statement is as
follows:
"... He [i.e., Donnchad] is also said to have married Druella, a
daughter of Godwin of Kent, presumably when Godwin's sons fled to
Ireland in exile. This statement is attributed to the Four Masters,
but I have not found it in their writings. In any case, it seems
virtually impossible on grounds of chronology that she, if she existed
at all, could ahve been the mother of Derb-forgaill."
So, it appears that one of Kelley's sources (not stated which - there
is no footnote for the statement) cited the Annals of the Four Masters
(apparently incorrectly, if Kelley is right about it not being there -
I have not yet checked AFM myself, but will when I get the chance) as
a source for Donnchad marrying a daughter of Godwin, and that Kelley
also had doubts about the truth of the claim.
Stewart Baldwin
Suzanne Doig
Baldwin) wrote:
>The statement is in the main text of Kelley's article "The Ancestry of
>Eve of Leinster" [TG 1 (1980). 4-27, at p. 23]. The statement is as
>follows:
>
>"... He [i.e., Donnchad] is also said to have married Druella, a
>daughter of Godwin of Kent, presumably when Godwin's sons fled to
>Ireland in exile. This statement is attributed to the Four Masters,
>but I have not found it in their writings. In any case, it seems
>virtually impossible on grounds of chronology that she, if she existed
>at all, could ahve been the mother of Derb-forgaill."
The same claim for Driella's marriage and parentage appears in Donough
O'Brien's 'History of the O'Briens' [1949]. He does not directly
attribute this to any particular source, but the mediaeval portion of
his work seem to draw heavily upon the Annal of the Four Masters,
which he mentions frequently.