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Vexing confusion of Hill and Radcliffe in Spencer
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W David Samuelsen
Nov 25, 2011, 1:34:39 PM11/25/11
to Gen-Medieval
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=hollye&id=I00460
shows:
(Will of Thomas Hill)
Item I give to my sister Whitbread xls to my nephew Willm her sonne xli
out of the debt he oweth and to his brother Henry xli out of the debt he
oweth mee and to his brother John xli out of the debt he oweth mee Item
I give to my neece Spencer xls & all those implemts of household w[hi]ch
I bought of her, and to her sonne Garrett xxs and to her daughter xls
And to my neece Poulter xls And to my godson Willm Whitbread xls and to
my goddaughter Chapman xls Item I give to my neece Sara Millward all my
plate that is to saie vj silver spoones a silver poringes a faire
standing salt with a Dover silver tankerd and a goblet of silver
condiconally that she payes to my neice Hanscombes children iiijli and
to my neece Raworthes v daughters xxs a peice when they come to the age
of xviij yeares
The above item shows Eleanor, wife of John Spencer to be Eleanor
Whitbred since it refers to her sons William, Henry, John and Gerard
Spencer and one knwon daughter - Elizabeth Spencer who was wife of Mr
Tomlins.
However, other sources says Eleanor is Eleanor Radcliffe, daughter of
Edward Radcliffe. In Spencer article in TAG referred to Sir Edmund
Radcliffe's (Vol 30, page 134-135, TAG) mention a connection:
1 Aug 1611, Sir Edward Radcliffe of Elstow, Knt for 32 pounds, conveyed
to John Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, a messuage or tenement in
Elstowe, giving a covenant of assurance against Dame Isabel
Radcliffe,late of Elstowe, deceased, his mother. And on the same date,
John Whitbread of Elstow, husbandman, for 20 pounds, gave to John
Radwell assurance of quiet enjoyment of the same premises against "Elner
Whitbread of Eluestowe," his mother (Publications of the Bedfordshire
Historical Record Society, 4:22-23)
Could it be Thomas Hill's mother is a Radcliffe, rather than Eleanor
Radlcliffe, since Thomas Hill will specified Eleanor's maiden name being
Hill, not Radcliffe?
If so, this opens another door to possibility another avenue into the
nobility by way of Eleanor Hill, wife of John Whitbred, grandmother of
Four Spencer Brothers.
W. David Samuelsen
shows:
(Will of Thomas Hill)
Item I give to my sister Whitbread xls to my nephew Willm her sonne xli
out of the debt he oweth and to his brother Henry xli out of the debt he
oweth mee and to his brother John xli out of the debt he oweth mee Item
I give to my neece Spencer xls & all those implemts of household w[hi]ch
I bought of her, and to her sonne Garrett xxs and to her daughter xls
And to my neece Poulter xls And to my godson Willm Whitbread xls and to
my goddaughter Chapman xls Item I give to my neece Sara Millward all my
plate that is to saie vj silver spoones a silver poringes a faire
standing salt with a Dover silver tankerd and a goblet of silver
condiconally that she payes to my neice Hanscombes children iiijli and
to my neece Raworthes v daughters xxs a peice when they come to the age
of xviij yeares
The above item shows Eleanor, wife of John Spencer to be Eleanor
Whitbred since it refers to her sons William, Henry, John and Gerard
Spencer and one knwon daughter - Elizabeth Spencer who was wife of Mr
Tomlins.
However, other sources says Eleanor is Eleanor Radcliffe, daughter of
Edward Radcliffe. In Spencer article in TAG referred to Sir Edmund
Radcliffe's (Vol 30, page 134-135, TAG) mention a connection:
1 Aug 1611, Sir Edward Radcliffe of Elstow, Knt for 32 pounds, conveyed
to John Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, a messuage or tenement in
Elstowe, giving a covenant of assurance against Dame Isabel
Radcliffe,late of Elstowe, deceased, his mother. And on the same date,
John Whitbread of Elstow, husbandman, for 20 pounds, gave to John
Radwell assurance of quiet enjoyment of the same premises against "Elner
Whitbread of Eluestowe," his mother (Publications of the Bedfordshire
Historical Record Society, 4:22-23)
Could it be Thomas Hill's mother is a Radcliffe, rather than Eleanor
Radlcliffe, since Thomas Hill will specified Eleanor's maiden name being
Hill, not Radcliffe?
If so, this opens another door to possibility another avenue into the
nobility by way of Eleanor Hill, wife of John Whitbred, grandmother of
Four Spencer Brothers.
W. David Samuelsen
Blood Royal1964
Nov 25, 2011, 11:22:36 PM11/25/11
to
I also have been researching this dilemma.
Here is a bit of what i have in me file:
From Paul Reed:
There is an article in TAG 32:128ff which covers this Whitebread
family.
Sir Edward Radcliffe was indeed of "Eluestowe" in 1611, when he sold
John
Radwell of Kempston, ploghwright a messuage with yard garden and
orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane, and John Whitbread
of
Eluestowe, husbandman, made bond to John Radwell assuring him of quiet
enjoyment of the said premessis against Elner Whitbread of Eluestowe,
widow,
his mother, but that does not a Radcliffe make, let alone the family
of Edward
Radcliffe, Earl of Sussex!
-Paul Reed
***
Source, unknown as I neglected to include it in me GEDCOM file:
Parents of Alice (Whitbread) Spencer
The information on the WHITBREAD family is mainly from The American
Genealogist, Vol. 32, No. 3, pp. 129-142: "The Whitbread family of
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire, England," by Clarence Almon Torrey.
The Whitebread One-Name Study provides recent findings regarding the
WHITBREAD and HILL families of Bedfordshire.
John WHITBREAD - b. about 1548; bur. Nov. 28, 1598, Upper Gravenhurst,
Bedfordshire.
Son of Thomas WHITBREAD (b. about 1518; d. 1585, Upper Gravenhurst,
Bedfordshire).
John resided at Upper Gravenhurst as early as 1571.
Eleanor HILL - bur. Nov. 20, 1628, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
"Of Elstow" in her will probated Apr. 18, 1629. [I do not have a copy
of this Will, but I will [should] have it soon]
===> Prior to identifying her HILL surname from the will of brother
Thomas HILL, it was believed that her surname may have been RADCLIFFE
or HERVEY due to association with those Elstow families in Aug. 1,
1611 property documents.
Children
1. Elizabeth - bap. Sep 28, 1571, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Probable daughter, but not named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
2. William - b. about 1573, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; bur.
there Feb. 16, 1639/40. Named in mother's will and his Uncle Thomas
HILL's will. Married by 1600 Elizabeth (bur. Jun. 5, 1612, Upper
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire). Children of William and Elizabeth
WHITBREAD: Henry married Elizabeth FARNELL; William died as infant;
John died young; Elizabeth married her first cousin Henry WHITBREAD;
Thomas married Joan CARTER; Sibyl married Caesar LUCAS; and William
married Joan COOPER.
3. Henry - bap. Jan. 9, 1575/6, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; d.
before Jan. 25, 1634, Cardington, Bedfordshire. Named in Uncle Thomas
HILL's will. Will dated Dec. 14, 1633, and proved Jan. 25, 1633/4.
Married Elizabeth LEVENTHORPE (perhaps bur. at Cardington, Feb. 17,
1648/9), daughter of George LEVENTHROPE of Meppershall, Bedfordshire.
Children of Henry and Elizabeth WHITBREAD: Henry married his first
cousin Elizabeth WHITBREAD; John; Elizabeth married; Frances; Eleanor
probably married Robert SHEERING; Mary; and Anne probably married
Samuel BAKER.
4. Alice - b. about 1578, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire. Married
Gerard SPENCER.
5. Francis - bap. Apr. 30, 1581, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Probable son, but not named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
6. John - bap. Nov. 8, 1584, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; bur.
Aug. 3, 1632, Elstow, Bedfordhire. Named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
Married Jun. 29, 1612, at Elstow, Mary NEWMAN (d. 1651). Children of
John and Mary WHITBREAD: Eleanor married William NEWMAN; William
married Miss PECK; John; Judith married William EDWARDS; Mary; and
Thomas.
7. Judith - bap. Jun. 6, 1591, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will. Married Jul. 23, 1626, Upper
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire Richard POULTER.
***
"The last will and testmt, of Ellenor Whitebread of Elstowe deceased,
uttered by her in her life time and since her death put into writings
as followeth.
The said Ellenor Whitebread beinge of pfect memorie did in the prsence
of William Whitebread and Henrye Whitebread utter her minds touchings
the disposing of her worldlie goods as followeth vizt. Imprimis she
gave unto Willia' Whitebread her eldest sonne her silver measure and
after his decease to his eldest sonne Henery Whitebread and after his
decease to his eldest sonne Willia' for to be a standard for ever unto
the heire of the Whitebreads. It' she gave unto Willia' Whitebread her
godsone a silver spoone. It' she gave unti Henery Whitebread her
godsonne a silver spoone and unto Ellenor Whitebread her goddaughter
his sister a silver spoone and a porridgpot. It' she gave unto Willia'
Spencer a silver spoone beinge my godsonne. It' she gave unto Ellenor
Whitebread her goddaughter unto John Whitebread a silver spoone & a
porridgpot. It' she gave unto Ellenor Chapman her godaughter (sic) a
porrigpott if ever she do come for it. It' she gave unto John
Whitebread her godsonne a silver spoone. It' she gave unto Thomas
Spencere xlvj s. viij d. It' she willed her sonne John Whitebread to
pay all her debts and to be her Executor." No signatures or date
Probate: 18th April to Executor named. Source: Copy of the Will of
Ellenor Whitbred of Elstow 1629, Bedord Archdeaconry Court, 1628/9,
No. 122. Ellenor’s eldest son William in 1639 styled himself a
gentelman. The recorded marriage of Alice Whitbread in 1600 to Gerard
Spencer, the known baptisms of her Spencer children, and the fact that
two of them, William and Thomas received legacies in Eleanor's will,
one of them being her godson, insures that Alice belongs to the family
of John and Eleanor Whitbread. William Whitbred and Gerrard Spencer
sold to John Whitbread 11 messuages, 1 pigeon house, 11 gardens, 11
orchards, 200 acres arable, 200 acres meadow, and 60 acres pasture, in
Shillington, Over Gravenest, Nether Gravenest, Flitton, Silsoe,
Elstoe, Kempston, and Stotfolde, Easter, 9 James I 1611. Feet of Fines
for Beds. P.R.O., CP. 25, 2, 270.
The children above listed, William, Henry, Alice and John are
positively proved as belonging to John and Eleanor.
The children of John , probably all born in Upper Gravenhurst, were:
i. Elizabeth (3), bapt. 28 Sept. 1571;
ii. William, b: (1573); m. Elizabeth.
iii. Henry, bapt. 9 Jan 1575/6; m. Elizabeth Leventhorpe
iv. Alice, b. (1578) m. 10 Nov 1600, Gerard Spencer (supra, 27:84).
Four of her sons came to New England and all left descendants.
v. Francis, bapt. 30 Apr 1581; no further record. vi. John, bapt. 8
Nov 1584; m. Mary Newman
vii. Judith, bapt. 6 June 1591; m. 23 July 1626, Richard Poulter.
***
Source:
The American Genealogist, Whole Number 127, Vol 32, Nr.3, July 1956.
John Whitbread , born about 1548, a resident of Upper Gravenhurst as
early as 1571, appears to have been the John Whitbred as written in
the parish register buried 28 Nov 1598. A search failed to find a will
or other probate record and no deeds to or from him have been located.
John married Eleanor/Ellenor. [as noted is probate record found] Ellen
was of Elstow in her nuncupative will which was probated 18 April
1629, and was most likley then living with her youngest son John, who
had settled in Elstow. But she was the "Widow Whitebread" buried at
Upper Gravenhurst 20 Nov 1628, in the churchyard near her husband's
grave. Eleanor may have been related in some way to the Radcliffe or
the Harvey family.
The evidence of such a relationship is:
1] 1 August 1611, Sir Edward Radcliffe, of "Eluestowe" sold John
Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, in consideration of 32 pounds, and
a messuage or tenement with yard garden and adjoining orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane alias Lambesyate on
the west highway leading from Eluestowe to Kempston on the north and
the Common green there on the south, to be held of the chief lord of
the fee by the rents and services therefore due.
2] Edw: Radcliffe then signed a "Covenant of assurance against Dame
Isabel Radcliffe late of Eluestowe deceased his mother." Isabel
(Hervey) Radcliffe was already dead, the covenant was to guard against
claims from any of her heirs.
3] That same day, Sir Edward Radcliffe entered a bond for 60 pounds to
secure the deed poll just made to John Radwill.
4] also that same day, John Whitbread of Eluestowe, husbandman, also
entered a bond for the sum of 20 pounds to John Radwell, "assuring him
quiet enjoyment of above premises against Elner Whitbread of
Eluestowe, widow, his mother."
***
Some sites to look at are:
http://kinnexions.com/smlawson/spencer.htm#Whitbread
http://www.one-name.org/profiles/whitebread.html
***
Source: The American Genealogist, Whole Number 127, Vol 32, Nr.3, July
1956.
Source: Publications for the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society,
4:22-23
Source: Copy of the Will of Ellenor Whitbred of Elstow 1629, Bedord
Archdeaconry Court, 1628/9, No. 122.
Source: Feet of Fines for Beds. P.R.O., CP. 25 (2) 270.
Source: V~Suffolk: Hervey pedigree.
Source: Visitation of Bedfordshire, 1566. [See Pedigrees Part 2]
As you can see there are both pro's and con's for her being a da of E.
Radcliffe. If you fine more information to prove this one way or the
other, please post.
Michael Warner
On Nov 25, 10:34 am, W David Samuelsen <dsa...@sampubco.com> wrote:
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=hollye&id=I...
>
> shows:
> (Will of ThomasHill)
> Whitbred since it refers to her sons William, Henry, John and GerardSpencerand one knwon daughter - ElizabethSpencerwho was wife of Mr
> 1 Aug 1611, Sir EdwardRadcliffeof Elstow, Knt for 32 pounds, conveyed
> Radlcliffe, since ThomasHillwill specified Eleanor's maiden name beingHill, notRadcliffe?
> FourSpencerBrothers.
>
> W. David Samuelsen
Here is a bit of what i have in me file:
From Paul Reed:
There is an article in TAG 32:128ff which covers this Whitebread
family.
Sir Edward Radcliffe was indeed of "Eluestowe" in 1611, when he sold
John
Radwell of Kempston, ploghwright a messuage with yard garden and
orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane, and John Whitbread
of
Eluestowe, husbandman, made bond to John Radwell assuring him of quiet
enjoyment of the said premessis against Elner Whitbread of Eluestowe,
widow,
his mother, but that does not a Radcliffe make, let alone the family
of Edward
Radcliffe, Earl of Sussex!
-Paul Reed
***
Source, unknown as I neglected to include it in me GEDCOM file:
Parents of Alice (Whitbread) Spencer
The information on the WHITBREAD family is mainly from The American
Genealogist, Vol. 32, No. 3, pp. 129-142: "The Whitbread family of
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire, England," by Clarence Almon Torrey.
The Whitebread One-Name Study provides recent findings regarding the
WHITBREAD and HILL families of Bedfordshire.
John WHITBREAD - b. about 1548; bur. Nov. 28, 1598, Upper Gravenhurst,
Bedfordshire.
Son of Thomas WHITBREAD (b. about 1518; d. 1585, Upper Gravenhurst,
Bedfordshire).
John resided at Upper Gravenhurst as early as 1571.
Eleanor HILL - bur. Nov. 20, 1628, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
"Of Elstow" in her will probated Apr. 18, 1629. [I do not have a copy
of this Will, but I will [should] have it soon]
===> Prior to identifying her HILL surname from the will of brother
Thomas HILL, it was believed that her surname may have been RADCLIFFE
or HERVEY due to association with those Elstow families in Aug. 1,
1611 property documents.
Children
1. Elizabeth - bap. Sep 28, 1571, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Probable daughter, but not named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
2. William - b. about 1573, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; bur.
there Feb. 16, 1639/40. Named in mother's will and his Uncle Thomas
HILL's will. Married by 1600 Elizabeth (bur. Jun. 5, 1612, Upper
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire). Children of William and Elizabeth
WHITBREAD: Henry married Elizabeth FARNELL; William died as infant;
John died young; Elizabeth married her first cousin Henry WHITBREAD;
Thomas married Joan CARTER; Sibyl married Caesar LUCAS; and William
married Joan COOPER.
3. Henry - bap. Jan. 9, 1575/6, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; d.
before Jan. 25, 1634, Cardington, Bedfordshire. Named in Uncle Thomas
HILL's will. Will dated Dec. 14, 1633, and proved Jan. 25, 1633/4.
Married Elizabeth LEVENTHORPE (perhaps bur. at Cardington, Feb. 17,
1648/9), daughter of George LEVENTHROPE of Meppershall, Bedfordshire.
Children of Henry and Elizabeth WHITBREAD: Henry married his first
cousin Elizabeth WHITBREAD; John; Elizabeth married; Frances; Eleanor
probably married Robert SHEERING; Mary; and Anne probably married
Samuel BAKER.
4. Alice - b. about 1578, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire. Married
Gerard SPENCER.
5. Francis - bap. Apr. 30, 1581, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Probable son, but not named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
6. John - bap. Nov. 8, 1584, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire; bur.
Aug. 3, 1632, Elstow, Bedfordhire. Named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will.
Married Jun. 29, 1612, at Elstow, Mary NEWMAN (d. 1651). Children of
John and Mary WHITBREAD: Eleanor married William NEWMAN; William
married Miss PECK; John; Judith married William EDWARDS; Mary; and
Thomas.
7. Judith - bap. Jun. 6, 1591, Upper Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire.
Named in Uncle Thomas HILL's will. Married Jul. 23, 1626, Upper
Gravenhurst, Bedfordshire Richard POULTER.
***
"The last will and testmt, of Ellenor Whitebread of Elstowe deceased,
uttered by her in her life time and since her death put into writings
as followeth.
The said Ellenor Whitebread beinge of pfect memorie did in the prsence
of William Whitebread and Henrye Whitebread utter her minds touchings
the disposing of her worldlie goods as followeth vizt. Imprimis she
gave unto Willia' Whitebread her eldest sonne her silver measure and
after his decease to his eldest sonne Henery Whitebread and after his
decease to his eldest sonne Willia' for to be a standard for ever unto
the heire of the Whitebreads. It' she gave unto Willia' Whitebread her
godsone a silver spoone. It' she gave unti Henery Whitebread her
godsonne a silver spoone and unto Ellenor Whitebread her goddaughter
his sister a silver spoone and a porridgpot. It' she gave unto Willia'
Spencer a silver spoone beinge my godsonne. It' she gave unto Ellenor
Whitebread her goddaughter unto John Whitebread a silver spoone & a
porridgpot. It' she gave unto Ellenor Chapman her godaughter (sic) a
porrigpott if ever she do come for it. It' she gave unto John
Whitebread her godsonne a silver spoone. It' she gave unto Thomas
Spencere xlvj s. viij d. It' she willed her sonne John Whitebread to
pay all her debts and to be her Executor." No signatures or date
Probate: 18th April to Executor named. Source: Copy of the Will of
Ellenor Whitbred of Elstow 1629, Bedord Archdeaconry Court, 1628/9,
No. 122. Ellenor’s eldest son William in 1639 styled himself a
gentelman. The recorded marriage of Alice Whitbread in 1600 to Gerard
Spencer, the known baptisms of her Spencer children, and the fact that
two of them, William and Thomas received legacies in Eleanor's will,
one of them being her godson, insures that Alice belongs to the family
of John and Eleanor Whitbread. William Whitbred and Gerrard Spencer
sold to John Whitbread 11 messuages, 1 pigeon house, 11 gardens, 11
orchards, 200 acres arable, 200 acres meadow, and 60 acres pasture, in
Shillington, Over Gravenest, Nether Gravenest, Flitton, Silsoe,
Elstoe, Kempston, and Stotfolde, Easter, 9 James I 1611. Feet of Fines
for Beds. P.R.O., CP. 25, 2, 270.
The children above listed, William, Henry, Alice and John are
positively proved as belonging to John and Eleanor.
The children of John , probably all born in Upper Gravenhurst, were:
i. Elizabeth (3), bapt. 28 Sept. 1571;
ii. William, b: (1573); m. Elizabeth.
iii. Henry, bapt. 9 Jan 1575/6; m. Elizabeth Leventhorpe
iv. Alice, b. (1578) m. 10 Nov 1600, Gerard Spencer (supra, 27:84).
Four of her sons came to New England and all left descendants.
v. Francis, bapt. 30 Apr 1581; no further record. vi. John, bapt. 8
Nov 1584; m. Mary Newman
vii. Judith, bapt. 6 June 1591; m. 23 July 1626, Richard Poulter.
***
Source:
The American Genealogist, Whole Number 127, Vol 32, Nr.3, July 1956.
John Whitbread , born about 1548, a resident of Upper Gravenhurst as
early as 1571, appears to have been the John Whitbred as written in
the parish register buried 28 Nov 1598. A search failed to find a will
or other probate record and no deeds to or from him have been located.
John married Eleanor/Ellenor. [as noted is probate record found] Ellen
was of Elstow in her nuncupative will which was probated 18 April
1629, and was most likley then living with her youngest son John, who
had settled in Elstow. But she was the "Widow Whitebread" buried at
Upper Gravenhurst 20 Nov 1628, in the churchyard near her husband's
grave. Eleanor may have been related in some way to the Radcliffe or
the Harvey family.
The evidence of such a relationship is:
1] 1 August 1611, Sir Edward Radcliffe, of "Eluestowe" sold John
Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, in consideration of 32 pounds, and
a messuage or tenement with yard garden and adjoining orchard in
Eluestowe between land of the King and Lambes Lane alias Lambesyate on
the west highway leading from Eluestowe to Kempston on the north and
the Common green there on the south, to be held of the chief lord of
the fee by the rents and services therefore due.
2] Edw: Radcliffe then signed a "Covenant of assurance against Dame
Isabel Radcliffe late of Eluestowe deceased his mother." Isabel
(Hervey) Radcliffe was already dead, the covenant was to guard against
claims from any of her heirs.
3] That same day, Sir Edward Radcliffe entered a bond for 60 pounds to
secure the deed poll just made to John Radwill.
4] also that same day, John Whitbread of Eluestowe, husbandman, also
entered a bond for the sum of 20 pounds to John Radwell, "assuring him
quiet enjoyment of above premises against Elner Whitbread of
Eluestowe, widow, his mother."
***
Some sites to look at are:
http://kinnexions.com/smlawson/spencer.htm#Whitbread
http://www.one-name.org/profiles/whitebread.html
***
Source: The American Genealogist, Whole Number 127, Vol 32, Nr.3, July
1956.
Source: Publications for the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society,
4:22-23
Source: Copy of the Will of Ellenor Whitbred of Elstow 1629, Bedord
Archdeaconry Court, 1628/9, No. 122.
Source: Feet of Fines for Beds. P.R.O., CP. 25 (2) 270.
Source: V~Suffolk: Hervey pedigree.
Source: Visitation of Bedfordshire, 1566. [See Pedigrees Part 2]
As you can see there are both pro's and con's for her being a da of E.
Radcliffe. If you fine more information to prove this one way or the
other, please post.
Michael Warner
On Nov 25, 10:34 am, W David Samuelsen <dsa...@sampubco.com> wrote:
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=hollye&id=I...
>
> shows:
> (Will of ThomasHill)
> Item I give to my sister Whitbread xls to my nephew Willm her sonne xli
> out of the debt he oweth and to his brother Henry xli out of the debt he
> oweth mee and to his brother John xli out of the debt he oweth mee Item
> I give to my neeceSpencerxls & all those implemts of household w[hi]ch
> out of the debt he oweth and to his brother Henry xli out of the debt he
> oweth mee and to his brother John xli out of the debt he oweth mee Item
> I bought of her, and to her sonne Garrett xxs and to her daughter xls
> And to my neece Poulter xls And to my godson Willm Whitbread xls and to
> my goddaughter Chapman xls Item I give to my neece Sara Millward all my
> plate that is to saie vj silver spoones a silver poringes a faire
> standing salt with a Dover silver tankerd and a goblet of silver
> condiconally that she payes to my neice Hanscombes children iiijli and
> to my neece Raworthes v daughters xxs a peice when they come to the age
> of xviij yeares
>
> The above item shows Eleanor, wife of JohnSpencerto be Eleanor
> And to my neece Poulter xls And to my godson Willm Whitbread xls and to
> my goddaughter Chapman xls Item I give to my neece Sara Millward all my
> plate that is to saie vj silver spoones a silver poringes a faire
> standing salt with a Dover silver tankerd and a goblet of silver
> condiconally that she payes to my neice Hanscombes children iiijli and
> to my neece Raworthes v daughters xxs a peice when they come to the age
> of xviij yeares
>
> Whitbred since it refers to her sons William, Henry, John and GerardSpencerand one knwon daughter - ElizabethSpencerwho was wife of Mr
> Tomlins.
>
> However, other sources says Eleanor is EleanorRadcliffe, daughter of
> EdwardRadcliffe. InSpencerarticle in TAG referred to Sir EdmundRadcliffe's (Vol 30, page 134-135, TAG) mention a connection:
>
> However, other sources says Eleanor is EleanorRadcliffe, daughter of
> 1 Aug 1611, Sir EdwardRadcliffeof Elstow, Knt for 32 pounds, conveyed
> to John Radwell of Kempston, ploughwright, a messuage or tenement in
> Elstowe, giving a covenant of assurance against Dame IsabelRadcliffe,late of Elstowe, deceased, his mother. And on the same date,
> John Whitbread of Elstow, husbandman, for 20 pounds, gave to John
> Radwell assurance of quiet enjoyment of the same premises against "Elner
> Whitbread of Eluestowe," his mother (Publications of the Bedfordshire
> Historical Record Society, 4:22-23)
>
> Could it be ThomasHill'smother is aRadcliffe, rather than Eleanor
> Radwell assurance of quiet enjoyment of the same premises against "Elner
> Whitbread of Eluestowe," his mother (Publications of the Bedfordshire
> Historical Record Society, 4:22-23)
>
> Radlcliffe, since ThomasHillwill specified Eleanor's maiden name beingHill, notRadcliffe?
>
> If so, this opens another door to possibility another avenue into the
> nobility by way of EleanorHill, wife of John Whitbred, grandmother of
> If so, this opens another door to possibility another avenue into the
> FourSpencerBrothers.
>
> W. David Samuelsen
Message has been deleted
Blood Royal1964
Dec 1, 2011, 10:19:10 PM12/1/11
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On Nov 26, 10:52 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Can't a contiguous property which the previous owner has "pieced
> together" by separate purchases require quitclaims from various
> (unrelated) persons?
>
> But, yes, a half-sister is also a sister.
Yes. You are correct. I had also thought about this, and that is why
we MUST get our hands on more documents to this issue can be pinned
down one way or another.
> Can't a contiguous property which the previous owner has "pieced
> together" by separate purchases require quitclaims from various
> (unrelated) persons?
>
> But, yes, a half-sister is also a sister.
Yes. You are correct. I had also thought about this, and that is why
we MUST get our hands on more documents to this issue can be pinned
down one way or another.
Teamviewer Tech Helper
May 28, 2019, 11:37:13 AM5/28/19
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I realize this is an old post, I'm interested to know if this was ever if was ever resolved and any identification of Edward Radcliffe of Elstow Beds. was ever made and what relationship Alice Whitread may have had to the people mentioned in the exchange.
Thank you
Robert
Thank you
Robert
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