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Empson/Spencer connections
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krothinva via
Oct 31, 2014, 8:02:12 AM10/31/14
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
I am trying to sort out the confusing Spencer/Empson marriages. I am a
descendant of William Cope/Jane(Joan) Spencer. The problem arise with
Jane's parentage. I have seen her parents as William Spencer/Elizabeth
Empson, son of John Spencer/female Warsted, son of Henry Spencer/Isabel
Lincoln. I have also seen her parentage as John Spencer/Anne Empson,
son of John Spencer/ Warsted. Elizabeth and Anne are said to be
sisters, and their brother was said to be Richard Empson, beheaded in
1510. Is there a proven line of descent from Henry Spencer? I have
seen John Spencer, son of Henry, married to both Warsted AND Anne
Empson . Since the Spencer/Despencer connection has been shown to be
fake, I am not sure if the work of Collins (Peerage/Baronetage of
England) can be trusted at all. Can someone help sort this line out?
Also, has anyone proven any ancestry for Henry Spencer or his wife
Isabel Lincoln?
descendant of William Cope/Jane(Joan) Spencer. The problem arise with
Jane's parentage. I have seen her parents as William Spencer/Elizabeth
Empson, son of John Spencer/female Warsted, son of Henry Spencer/Isabel
Lincoln. I have also seen her parentage as John Spencer/Anne Empson,
son of John Spencer/ Warsted. Elizabeth and Anne are said to be
sisters, and their brother was said to be Richard Empson, beheaded in
1510. Is there a proven line of descent from Henry Spencer? I have
seen John Spencer, son of Henry, married to both Warsted AND Anne
Empson . Since the Spencer/Despencer connection has been shown to be
fake, I am not sure if the work of Collins (Peerage/Baronetage of
England) can be trusted at all. Can someone help sort this line out?
Also, has anyone proven any ancestry for Henry Spencer or his wife
Isabel Lincoln?
Robert Spencer
Nov 4, 2014, 1:06:03 PM11/4/14
to
Regarding this Henry Spenser , here are my latest finds and info to help you sort it out. In the past, this Henry has been claimed as an ancestor for the Spencer family of Bedfordshire, I can assure you he is not their ancestor.
Earl Spencer(Spencer's of Althorp)also claim this same Henry as their ancestor. His account states they go back to a William Spencer c. 1330.
Henry Spenser b. bef. 1410, he d. 16 Ed. IV (4 Mar 1475/76)= Isabel Lincoln - o.b. 18 Ed IV ( 1478/79).
Henry Spenser must have been born bef. 1410 based on the following documents.
Will of HENRY SPENSER, ESQ.
Henry Spenser, of Badby, in the county of Northampton, Esquire*, 1476. I appoint my sons John and Thomas my executors, and my wife Isabel, overseer of my said will *. K. G.; he died circa 16 Edward IV. leaving by Isabel his wife, daughter and coheir of Henry Lincoln, four sons, of whom John Spencer, the eldest, was father of John Spencer, of Hodnell
* Collins' Peerage, vol. i. p, 350.
* Dugdale's Abstract, vol. i. p. 250, and the MS. notes.
Source: Testamenta Vetusta: Being Illustrations From Wills, of Manners, Customs, &c. as Well as of the Descents and Possessions of Many Distinguished Families. From the Reign of Henry the Second to the Accession of Queen Elizabeth; TESTAMENTA VETUSTA. 339
Establishing Henry's time line:
CP 25/1/179/94, number 58. (12 November 1430)- Henry Spenser of Badby
County: Northamptonshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St Martin, 9 Henry VI [12 November 1430].
Parties: Thomas Mollesley, William Byfeld' of Couentre, draper, Hugh Hychecok' of Kyrkeby, John Mollesley of London', Henry Spenser of Badby and Thomas, son of Thomas Marche, querents, and John Waundell' of Kyllesby, deforciant.
Property: 1 messuage and 1 shop in Dauentre.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Waundell' has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William, as those which William, Thomas, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to Thomas, William, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: Thomas, William, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas have given him 20 marks of silver.
Henry shown as a collector of a tax in 1442: source: Calendar of the Fine Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office: Membrane 9.
John Lynell of Brokhole, John Hetheryngton of Preston,
Henry Spenser of Badby, Roger Riglot of Wodeford,
Richard Graunt of Daventre, John Lyberd of Wolaston,
John Smyth of Wendlyngburgh, William Long of Staver-
ton ; in the county of Northampton ; excepting
121/. ll«s. 6\d. to be distributed by the abbot of Peter-
borough, and by William Tresham and William Vaux,
knights coming to Parliament.
He obtained a lease of tithes at Badby in 20 Hen. VI.- (1441-1442)
Henry's children:
1. John Spencer of Hodnell, co. Warwick, lessee (tenant) of Wormleighton, co. Warwick in 1469, and of Althorp, co. Northampton 1486 (will dated 15 Sep 1496 of Hodnell - d. 10 Jan 1497 = Ann Empson , b. abt.1450, of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473) , = 2nd Jane Graunt.
2. Thomas Spencer = Margeret Smith of Wold.
3. Nicholas Spencer
4. Jane Spencer= Walter Gruant
5. William Spencer of Rodburn, Warwicks. = Elizabeth Empson (b. c. 1448), sister of Sir Richard Empson, Speaker of the House of Commons, she was of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473 ,fls. 1444).
Proposed Ancestor's of Henry Spenser of Badby.
1.Nicholas le Despenser- Despenser to Stephen de Seagrave and Attorney of the Priory of Caldwell, Bedforshire in 21 April 1241 and probable connection to L'isle family of Shefford Beds.
2. Walter le Despenser of Moggerhanger, Bedford, b. bef. 1250, fls. Nov. 20, 1270.
Walter was the Despenser to Hugh Peche and his wife Ida Hastings, sister of Henry Hastings. Ida was the widow of Stephen de Seagrave II).
Walter was previously the Despenser of Stephen de Seagrave as per this source:
Source: BCM/D/5/23/39 1216-1272 relates to Stephen de Segrave and land Diceworth,(digesworth)Liesc.
Related information: [BL Harl. MS 4748, f. 8]
Contents:
Ralph de Bredona and Walter son of Geoffrey de Herteshorn. n.d. [temp. Hen. III]
Ralph has granted to Walter a toft and croft in Digetheswrd of the free alms of the church of Bredona, except a small space for the church to build a granary, at a rent of 3s. a year.
Witnesses: Robert de Maynys, Hugh de Digethelswrd, Alan Nowel, Reginald de Wyveleston, Walter the forester (forestarius), Walter Despenser (Dispensarius).
3. Henry Spenser, b. abt. 1266,fls. 1297 at least 20 at this time-named in poll tax at Biggleswade, Beds. Also named in Bedfordshire subsidy of 1309.
= Isabella (named in Bedfordshire Subsidy list of 1332 as Isabella Spenser)
4. William Spenser appears in 1332 Bedfordshire Subsidy. William Spenser fls. 1330) of Defford,Worcs.
5. John Spenser of Defford = Alice dau. of Giles Deverell
6. Nicholas Spenser of Defford = Dau. of Richard Pollard
7. Thomas Spenser of Defford
8. Henry Spenser of Badby, b. bef. 1410, he d. 16 Ed. IV (4 Mar 1475/76)= Isabel Lincoln - o.b. 18 Ed IV ( 1478/79.
Hope this helps you..
Robert
Earl Spencer(Spencer's of Althorp)also claim this same Henry as their ancestor. His account states they go back to a William Spencer c. 1330.
Henry Spenser b. bef. 1410, he d. 16 Ed. IV (4 Mar 1475/76)= Isabel Lincoln - o.b. 18 Ed IV ( 1478/79).
Henry Spenser must have been born bef. 1410 based on the following documents.
Will of HENRY SPENSER, ESQ.
Henry Spenser, of Badby, in the county of Northampton, Esquire*, 1476. I appoint my sons John and Thomas my executors, and my wife Isabel, overseer of my said will *. K. G.; he died circa 16 Edward IV. leaving by Isabel his wife, daughter and coheir of Henry Lincoln, four sons, of whom John Spencer, the eldest, was father of John Spencer, of Hodnell
* Collins' Peerage, vol. i. p, 350.
* Dugdale's Abstract, vol. i. p. 250, and the MS. notes.
Source: Testamenta Vetusta: Being Illustrations From Wills, of Manners, Customs, &c. as Well as of the Descents and Possessions of Many Distinguished Families. From the Reign of Henry the Second to the Accession of Queen Elizabeth; TESTAMENTA VETUSTA. 339
Establishing Henry's time line:
CP 25/1/179/94, number 58. (12 November 1430)- Henry Spenser of Badby
County: Northamptonshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St Martin, 9 Henry VI [12 November 1430].
Parties: Thomas Mollesley, William Byfeld' of Couentre, draper, Hugh Hychecok' of Kyrkeby, John Mollesley of London', Henry Spenser of Badby and Thomas, son of Thomas Marche, querents, and John Waundell' of Kyllesby, deforciant.
Property: 1 messuage and 1 shop in Dauentre.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Waundell' has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William, as those which William, Thomas, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas have of his gift, and has remised and quitclaimed them from himself and his heirs to Thomas, William, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas and the heirs of William for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: Thomas, William, Hugh, John Mollesley, Henry and Thomas have given him 20 marks of silver.
Henry shown as a collector of a tax in 1442: source: Calendar of the Fine Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office: Membrane 9.
John Lynell of Brokhole, John Hetheryngton of Preston,
Henry Spenser of Badby, Roger Riglot of Wodeford,
Richard Graunt of Daventre, John Lyberd of Wolaston,
John Smyth of Wendlyngburgh, William Long of Staver-
ton ; in the county of Northampton ; excepting
121/. ll«s. 6\d. to be distributed by the abbot of Peter-
borough, and by William Tresham and William Vaux,
knights coming to Parliament.
He obtained a lease of tithes at Badby in 20 Hen. VI.- (1441-1442)
Henry's children:
1. John Spencer of Hodnell, co. Warwick, lessee (tenant) of Wormleighton, co. Warwick in 1469, and of Althorp, co. Northampton 1486 (will dated 15 Sep 1496 of Hodnell - d. 10 Jan 1497 = Ann Empson , b. abt.1450, of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473) , = 2nd Jane Graunt.
2. Thomas Spencer = Margeret Smith of Wold.
3. Nicholas Spencer
4. Jane Spencer= Walter Gruant
5. William Spencer of Rodburn, Warwicks. = Elizabeth Empson (b. c. 1448), sister of Sir Richard Empson, Speaker of the House of Commons, she was of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473 ,fls. 1444).
Proposed Ancestor's of Henry Spenser of Badby.
1.Nicholas le Despenser- Despenser to Stephen de Seagrave and Attorney of the Priory of Caldwell, Bedforshire in 21 April 1241 and probable connection to L'isle family of Shefford Beds.
2. Walter le Despenser of Moggerhanger, Bedford, b. bef. 1250, fls. Nov. 20, 1270.
Walter was the Despenser to Hugh Peche and his wife Ida Hastings, sister of Henry Hastings. Ida was the widow of Stephen de Seagrave II).
Walter was previously the Despenser of Stephen de Seagrave as per this source:
Source: BCM/D/5/23/39 1216-1272 relates to Stephen de Segrave and land Diceworth,(digesworth)Liesc.
Related information: [BL Harl. MS 4748, f. 8]
Contents:
Ralph de Bredona and Walter son of Geoffrey de Herteshorn. n.d. [temp. Hen. III]
Ralph has granted to Walter a toft and croft in Digetheswrd of the free alms of the church of Bredona, except a small space for the church to build a granary, at a rent of 3s. a year.
Witnesses: Robert de Maynys, Hugh de Digethelswrd, Alan Nowel, Reginald de Wyveleston, Walter the forester (forestarius), Walter Despenser (Dispensarius).
3. Henry Spenser, b. abt. 1266,fls. 1297 at least 20 at this time-named in poll tax at Biggleswade, Beds. Also named in Bedfordshire subsidy of 1309.
= Isabella (named in Bedfordshire Subsidy list of 1332 as Isabella Spenser)
4. William Spenser appears in 1332 Bedfordshire Subsidy. William Spenser fls. 1330) of Defford,Worcs.
5. John Spenser of Defford = Alice dau. of Giles Deverell
6. Nicholas Spenser of Defford = Dau. of Richard Pollard
7. Thomas Spenser of Defford
8. Henry Spenser of Badby, b. bef. 1410, he d. 16 Ed. IV (4 Mar 1475/76)= Isabel Lincoln - o.b. 18 Ed IV ( 1478/79.
Hope this helps you..
Robert
Robert Spencer
Nov 4, 2014, 1:13:42 PM11/4/14
to
Regarding Jane Spencer:
Her parents,
John Spencer of Hodnell, co. Warwick, lessee (tenant) of Wormleighton, co. Warwick in 1469, and of Althorp, co. Northampton 1486 (will dated 15 Sep 1496 of Hodnell - d. 10 Jan 1497 = Ann Empson , b. abt.1450, of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473) , = 2nd :Jane Graunt
Jane Spencer (d. 12 Feb 1525), mar. (1) bef. 1496 as his second wife Sir William Cope, of Banbury, co. Oxford, Keeper of Portchester Castle (b. 1450; d. 7 Apr 1513), and (2) William Saunders, of Banbury, co. Oxford, and had issue by her first husband.
She was co-heiress of her brother Thomas and heiress of her mother Ann, and co-hier to Richard Empson.
Regards, Robert
Her parents,
John Spencer of Hodnell, co. Warwick, lessee (tenant) of Wormleighton, co. Warwick in 1469, and of Althorp, co. Northampton 1486 (will dated 15 Sep 1496 of Hodnell - d. 10 Jan 1497 = Ann Empson , b. abt.1450, of Neston-Eston- dau. of (Sir. Peter Empson lawyer & kt., who d. 1473) , = 2nd :Jane Graunt
She was co-heiress of her brother Thomas and heiress of her mother Ann, and co-hier to Richard Empson.
Regards, Robert
jmb...@albion.edu
Nov 4, 2014, 7:52:02 PM11/4/14
to
Dear Robert, and also D. Spencer Hines: have you published, or do you plan to publish, a comprehensive study of any of the various Spencer families you have painstakingly researched? With such a broad range of appeal (not to mention such great entanglements and confusion over their lines), I believe many researchers, both private and professional, would find it extremely illuminating -- even definitive.
Jim+
Jim+
Robert Spencer
Nov 5, 2014, 7:07:27 AM11/5/14
to
Thanks Jim for your comment. A Dr. Kaori(from England)and a cousin Diane in California are currently collaborating with me on a book, perhaps an e-book with active links. The chapters are defined and contents and sources are being added almost everyday. I am on vacation soon to Philippines , I hope to make progress on it over the 2 months there. I know nothing of D. Spencer Hines plans, although I an aware of certain lines he is pursuing that are of interest to me also.
Regards,
Robert
Regards,
Robert
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