Ancestry of Sir Hugh le Despenser (d. 1238)
the...@aol.com
Monday, 16 January, 2006
Hello All,
Below please find the male line descent, as currently known, from
Hugh 'I' de Berges to his great-great grandson, Sir Hugh le Despenser
(d. bef 31 May 1238). The correct link in this descent, showing Thomas
le Despenser as son of Geoffrey le Despenser, is thanks to the recent
discovery by Clive West.
Subsequent postings will include the senior (de Prestwold) line,
among other details. Posts to the newsgroup will be made as these
lines of descent are completed, using additional details drawn from
Nichols.
Relevant comments, criticism and additional documentation are welcome, as
always.
Cheers,
John *
___________________________________________________________________
Paternal Ancestry of Sir Hugh le Despenser (d. 1238)
1 Hugh de Berges
----------------------------------------
of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
possibly originally came from Berges, Sussex
he may have been the son (or other successor) of Hugh, who held
2 carucates of land less 1 bovate in Bortone [Burton on the
Wolds] of earl Hugh at Domesday Book, 1086.[1]
' Hugo de Berges', made a gift of 3 carucates to Garendon abbey in Burton
on the Wolds, later confirmed by son Ansketil together with his
(Ansketil's) uncles Thurstan de Queniborough and Radulf[2]. This gift
occurred in 1133 (year of the foundation of Garendon) or later.
________________
re: his wife:
sister of Thurstan de Queniborough and his brother Radulf
her father may have been the William de Queniborough who held
lands of Geoffrey de la Guerche at Domesday Book, 1086
evidently had lands in Burton on the Wolds and Prestwold, co. Leics.
as her maritagium[2]
Children: Ansketil
1.1 Ansketil de Berges
----------------------------------------
of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
gift by 'Hugo de Berges et Asketillus filius eius' of 3 carucates in
Burton to Garendon abbey, confirmed by his uncles Thurstan and Radulf
de Queniborough 'cum predicto nepote nostro Asketillo'[2]
[also Nichols, Hist. Leicestershire vol. III, courtesy Clive West[8]]
Spouse: Rohese
Children: Hugh de Berges (als Hugh de Prestwold)
Geoffrey
Ivo de Alspath, constable of Coventry (->1178)
1.1.1 Geoffrey le Despenser
----------------------------------------
dispensator [ 'dispensarius'] to the Earl of Chester
? Gaufrido dispensatore..?, witness to charters of the Earls of Chester,
together with others [once with his brother Ivo de Alspath:
? Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo...? , charter #82 ] ca.
1135-1153.
Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, charters
#25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 73, 85, 99[4]
[also, ? Gaufrido dispensario...? and ? Galfrido dispensatore..? ]
'Gaufrido dispensatore', witness together with brother Ivo de Alspath
of recognition of Eustace fitz John as constable of Chester, ca. 1144-45
[Barraclough, charter #73, cites B. L. Cott. Charter xvi, 36; collated,
where mutilated, with Bodleian Library, Dugdale MS. 17, p. 82 and
P.R.O., D.L. 42/1[4]]
"Geoffrey 'dispensario' ",witness to a charter ca. 1155-67 with his
brother Ivo de Alspath ("Ivo de Hallespad' ") - A2A, Shakespeare
Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/1 - DR10/467] , DEEDS AND PAPERS: Warwickshire: Combe alias
Smite, [ DR10/192 ][5]
_________________________
proof of his identity as father of Thomas le Despenser provided
by charters in the Garendon chartulary, printed in Nichol's History
of Leicester. Charters are recorded for gifts to Garendon by
" Thomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris "
[Nichols III/2:817, 14.b., and Nichols III/2:815, 12.a. (name
given as 'Tomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris') [3]]
this evidence as to his parentage was only recently noted by Clive
West in Nichols' Hist. of Leicestershire, Vol. III [8]
Children: Thomas (-ca1207)
Elias le Despenser
1.1.1.1 Thomas le Despenser[6]
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1207[4]
of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
'dispensator' of the Earl of Chester (possibly in succession to his father
Geoffrey)
proof of his parentage provided by charters in the Garendon
chartulary, printed in Nichol's History of Leicester:
" Thomas Dispensator. (14.b.)
... Thomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris,
salutem........ x bovatas terre, cum omnibus pertinentiis
suis, in campo de Burtona, concessu Asketilli de Berges
domini mei de eadem terra,... "[Nichols III/2:817[3]]
" Tomas Dispensator. (12.a.)
Omnibus filius sancte matris ecclesiae Tomas Dispensator,
filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris, salutem. Sciatis me concessise &
confirmasse donationem patris mei, quam fecit monachis de
Geraldonia[m], videlicet, de tota[m] terra[m] quam reclamavit in
Stantona[m]. Et sicut ille prefatam donationem eoram monachis &
multis aliis festibus super altare posuit, sic & ego manu mea[m]
eandem donationem super altare Dei obtuli & concessi, ut monachi
eam teneant libere & quiete a me, & a cunctis heredibus meis, in
perpetuam elemosinam. Semitam quoque in campo eorum, per quam
ego & homines mei incedere solebamus, que erat ad gravamen eorum,
& ad detrimentum segetum, quietam omnino concessi.
Hii fuerunt testes; Willielmus abbas Legrecestrie, Hugo
Barre, Willielmus Burdet, Willielmus de Widevill, Gaufridus
filius Algot, Willielmus de Rudevill, Gillebertus filius Picot,
Gillebertus de Segrave, Radulphus Fridei, Ricardus filius
Nicholai, Gaufridus Ostianus, Gilbertus Forestarius, Asketillus
de Torp, Johannes Constantin, Gaufridus de Curci, Ranulphus
Leblud. " [Nichols III/2:815[3]]
'Thoma dispensatore', witness together with Elias, 'his brother'
of the gift of Ivo de Alspath, 'ca. 1160', of a virgate of land
to Monks Kirby (A2A, Meriden (Alspath) [ DR10/524 ][5],[4],[7].
See text from PRO, below.
amerced 40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire, as
noted by Farrer [9]. The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II
identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges:
" De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'.
Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia
pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s.
....
Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro
eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19]
' Thoma dispensatore ', witness to grant by H(ugh), Earl of Chester
(d. 1181) to Bertram, his chamberlain, of Mabel, daughter of
William Flamenc, and her inheritance of Meles, ca. 1162-1181 :
"Testibus Bertramo de Verd', Johanne, constabulario Cestr', Radulpho
Dapifero de Monte Alto, Roolant de Verd', Thoma dispensatore,
Giliberto filio pibot, Willelmo Barb'ap'l et multis aliis apud
Cestr'." - A2A, Manchester University, John Rylands Library:
Rylands Charters [RYCH/1 - RYCH/1942], RYCH/1274[5]
?Thoma dispensator? or ?dispensarius? [also ?Toma?], witness to
numerous charters of the Earls of Chester, ca. 1178-1207 (charters
#192, 194, 203, 261-2, 265, 272, 288-9, 302-3, 313, 316, 321, 334,
341, in G. Barraclough)'[4]
charter confirming grant of 10 bovates in Burton to Garendon abbey,
dated 1177x1190:
? Tomas Dispensator. (4.b.)
Sciatis me dedisse, concessione & bona voluntate uxoris
mee Recuare & heredum meorum & hac carta mea confirmasse, Deo et
ecclesie Sanct Marie de Gerondonia, et monachis....etc etc..
x bovatas terra cum omnibus pertinentiis suis in campo de Burton
concesssu Asketilli de Berges domini mei de eadem terra, liberas
et quitas ab omni terreno servicio et consuetudine mihi &
heredibus meis pertinente, salvo forensi servicio; & excepto
quod annuatim dabunt mihi & heredibus meis 2 solidus ad festum
Sancte Crucis post Pascham. Preterea dedi eisdem monachis
....etc.....pro salute anime mee & patris & matris mee, &
precipue pro anima filii mei Gaufridi 1111 solidos quos pro
predicta terra ......etc.... Ut inde habeat annuatim conventus
pitanciam in die anniversario eiusdem fillii mei, hoc est
crastino Nativitatis Sanct Marie. ........etc etc......
Hiis testibus; Roberto comite Legrecestrie, Petronilla
comitissa. ? [Nichols, ibid., Vol. III, Part 2, pp. 810-811[3],
courtesy Clive West[8]]
acquired Arnesby and Loughborough, co. Leics. on the death of his
brother Elias:
' The successor of Ellis was Thomas Despenser, who was amerced 1 mark
in 1166 for a default in Leicestershire. This Thomas was amerced
40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire.... he was
presumably the donor to [Garendon] abbey of 10 bovates in Burton on
the Wolds, Leics., of the fee of Asketil de Berges,...' [ Farrer,
HKF II:58, citing Pipe Roll 12 Hen II, p. 70; 22 Hen II, p. 185;
and Cal. Chart. Rolls iv. 475[9]]
_____________________________
~ the grant of land in Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon
abbey reads:
'the grant of the same Asketil of the gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten
bovates of land in his fee, in the same town' - CCR IV:475[10]
Thomas obviously held his lands (or at least these 10 bovates) in Burton
of Ansketil de Berges (elsewhere Ansketil de Prestwold), evidently
his first cousin.
_____________________________
' Honors and Knights' Fees ii:58 et seq. gives Ellis Despenser enfeoffed of
Loughbourough by Hugh de Beauchamp after 1158. Ellis succeeded by
Thomas, living 1166. This Thomas donated 10 bovates in Burton on the
Wolds, Leics. of the fee of ASKETIL de Berges.' (the cite by Farrer
references CCR IV:475)[11]
'Thomas Dispensator gave to Stephen de Segrave with Roese his daughter
in free marriage a rent of 2s in Burton', to them and the heirs of
their bodies' (CP IV: 259n)[6]
'Thomas Despenser', witness to charter of Ranulf, Earl of Chester to
the burgesses of Coventry, ca. 1199-1204[12](this is included in
Barraclough, Charters[4])
'Thomas Dispensarius, quartam partem. ' [held 1/4 of a knight's fee of
the Honour of Peverell, A.D. 1201-12 - Red Book of the Exchequer
I:180[13]]
grant to church of St. Nicholas, ca. 1160
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970], Warwickshire -Meriden (Alspath)
date: c. 1160
?Gift from Ivo de Aellespat to the monks of St. Nicholas of
Kirkebi [Monks Kirby] of a virgate of land in Aellespet which
belonged to Godwin and his heirs, to hold in free alms for the
soul of the said Ivo, his ancestors and successors, and for
the deeds committed by the said Ivo on the lands of St.
Nicholas during the civil war.
Witnesses: Thomas steward (dispensatore), Elias, his brother,
Richard cornmonger (frumentino), Robert, his son, Gilbert, son
of Pichot, Roger, his son, Nigel de Amundavilla, Thomas de
Bikenhulla, William Brittone, Roger reeve (preposito), William
reeve (preposito), Adam, son of Godwin.?[5]
cf. CP IV:259[6]
__________________________________
~ parentage [now discounted as unlikely] previously theorized
for Thomas le Despenser indicated in Eynsham cartulary
(reference from Monasticon Anglicanum, provided by Douglas
Richardson):
'Vol. 3, pg. 25 Charter for Thomas filius Hugonis
Dispensatoris. No date. Mentions land which his
father ("pater") formerly held of Waukelin Harang
his uncle ("avunculo"). '[14]
This evidently is another family, based in Oxfordshire. The charter
of Thomas 'filius Hugonis' of a virgate of land to Eynsham abbey
is dated [1213-28] by Salter (49:149)[15]
Spouse: 'Recuara' [unusual name or error in transcription]
Children: Geoffrey (dvp -<1191)
Thomas le Despenser, of Loughborough(-<1218)
Sir Hugh (-<1238)
Rohese, m. Gilbert de Segrave
Henry (->1213)
Robert (->1215)
Geoffrey le Despenser, of Martley (-1251)
1.1.1.1.1 Sir Hugh le Despenser
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 31 May 1238[6]
knight, of Loughborough, Burton, Hugglescote and Freeby, co. Leicester
& c. [6]
? Hugone dispensario ?, witness to charters of the Earls of Chester,
together with others [? Hugone Despensir, Thoma fratre suo,...? ca. 1207-
1211 - charter #211; ? Hugone et Thoma et Henrico et Roberto et Galfrido
dispensariis,.? , ca. 1214-17 - charter #381 ] ca. 1191-1227.
Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, various
charters, #260 - 416 (not inclusive)[4]
'dispensarius' to the Earl of Chester, acting on behalf of the King,
18 Aug 1207:
' The K[ing]. commands W. de Cantilupe forthwith to deliver to R. constable
of Chester, by the hands of the bearer, H. Despenser, all the 'plain land',
with cattle and stock, which the K. had before given to Thomas de Galweya; the
Constable to answer for the issues thereof, unless Thomas shall please the K.
therein; de Cantilupe to see that the Constable gets the cattle and stock, and
to acquaint the K. thereof; the castles to be retained in the K.'s hand till
the Constable sends his seneschal or another of his knights, to make oath for
their safe custody at the K.'s orders. Stiviton. ' [Bain I:66[16], No. 404,
cites Close Roll, 9 John, m. 15]
~ his brother Thomas also acting on behalf of the King in the same matter
[Bain I:66[16], No. 405, cites fine of Thomas de Galloway at Worcester,
Aug/Sept. 1207: Fine, 9 John, m. 8]
witness to quitclaim by Alan of Galloway, 1210-12:
' 553. Alan son of Rolland lord of Galloway (Galuvath) constable of
Scotland, quit claims to Roger de Lascy constable of Chester and his heirs, the
advowson of the church of Kipeis. Witnesses:- Eustace de Vescy, Robert the
Welshman (Walensi), William de Bello monte, Hugh Despensar, Thomas his brother,
Gilbert son of Gospatric, Ralf de Campania, Richard clerk of Creveqor the writer of
the letter, and many others. ' [Bain I:96[16], cites Duchy of Lancaster,
Cartae Miscell., Vol. I, p. 4]
" Hugo Dispensar' ", inherited Arnesby and Loughborough, co. Leics. on death
of brother Thomas, before Oct 1218[6]:
' " Hugo Dispensar' " gave the lord King 25 solidi for his relief due for
1 knight's fee in Arnesby [Erendebi], which he acquired by the death
of Thomas le Despenser [ "Thome Dispensar' "] his firstborn brother,
whose heir he is.' Excerpta e Rotulis Finium I:18[17]
'Hugh Dispensator', made a gift to Garendon abbey of land in Burton on
the Wolds:
' the gift of Hugh Dispensator of two messuages and three virgates of
land in the same town with the men holding them, their chattels and
all that goes with them;..' - CCR IV:475[10]
charter for a market and fair at Loughborough, co. Leics. granted 22 Jan
1221, by King Henry III to Hugh Despenser, ' to be held at the manor until the
king came of age' (RLC, i, p. 446b). On 12 Feb 1227, King Henry III granted Hugh
Despenser a Thurs market (CChR, 1226?57, p. 4).[18]
'Hugh son of Thomas Despenser confirmed to Stephen de Segrave with
Rohaise his sister in frank marriage one mark of rent given her by the
said Thomas out of his mill of Mountsorrel.' Farrer, HKF II:59, citing
Glover MS (Dugdale, Baronage) i. 389b[9]
had a grant of the marriage of Roger de St. John (ward of his brother
Geoffrey) 'to the use of one of the daughters of Hugh' (CP XI:348
and note j - cites Rot. de Fin., p. 529 and Patent Rolls, 1225-32, p.323)[6]
obtained Ryhall and Belmesthorp, Rutland by various grants from 22 Aug 1227
to 23 June 1233
fined to obtain the custody of the lands and heir of Geoffrey le Sauvage, his
deceased son-in-law ['..que filia ipsius Hugonis huit in uxorem.'], 4 Nov
1230 [Excerpta e Rotulis Finium, 2:205][17]
cf. CP IV:259[6]
Spouse: [CONJECTURED] NN de Quincy
Father: [CONJECTURED] Saier IV de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (~1155-1219)
Mother: [CONJECTURED] Margaret de Beaumont (-1234)
Children: Pernell, m. Geoffrey le Sauvage
NN, m. Roger de St. John
Sir Hugh (~1223-1265)
1. Chris Phillips, "Re: Origins of the Despensers - Queniborough query,"
Jan 30, 2003, email, the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John
Ravilious.
2. "Medieval Palaeography: Transcriptions and Translations of Charters,"
Dr. David A. Postles, University of Leicester,
http://www.le.ac.uk/elh/pot/char2.html
cites extract from twelfth-century charters from the cartulary of
Garendon Abbey [BL.
3. John Nichols, F.S.A., "The History and Antiquities of the County of
Leicester," London: Printed By and For John Nichols, 1795, Vol. III,
part 2: 1804.
4. Geoffrey Barraclough, "The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of
Chester, c. 1071-1237," The Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire,
1988, cites charters in the Public Record Office, the Bodleian Library
and elsewhere.
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great
Britain and the United Kingdom.
7. John P. Ravilious, "Origins of the Despensers - status report," Jan 4,
2003, email, the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John Ravilious,
cites Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester,
c. 1071-1237; also charters published by the PRO, Shakespeare
Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall, re: Burton,
co. Leics. and Coventry, co. Warwicks., and information provided by
Kay Allen, AG, Cris Nash, and others.
8. Clive West, "Garendon Charters," 13 January 2006,
email clive...@ukonline.co.uk.
9. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:, Vol
II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer, Warenne.
10. "Calendar of the Charter Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
London, 1898, Vol. II (Henry III - Edward I, 1257-1300), pp. 190-191,
letters patent of William de Fiennes for the marriage of his sister Maud
to Humphrey de Bohun, heir of the earl of Hereford, 1912, vol. 4
(1-14 Edward III, 1327 ? 1341, p. 475, grants confirmed by the king 12
July 1340, along with a royal charter dated 13 December 4 Edward III,
at the request of Walter, abbot of Garendon., the list of grants runs
through pp. 472-481, Citations provided by Chris Phillips
(c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk).
11. Kay Allen, AG, "Ivo de A. and the Despensers," Dec 23, 2002,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com (paper copy: library of John Ravilious,
cites Farrer, Honors and Knights' Fees ii:58, re: Loughborough and
Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
12. Florilegium Urbanum, "Charter of the Earl of Chester to Coventry,"
http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/culture/towns/florilegium/government/gvcons05.html
extracted Sept 19, 2002, from Peter Coss, ed., The Early Records of
Medieval Coventry, British Academy: Records of Social and Economic
History, new series, vol. 11 (1986), 22.
13. Hubert Hall, F.S.A., ed., "The Red Book of the Exchequer," London:
Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and Spottiswoode,
1896, Vols. I, II.
14. Douglas Richardson, "Karissimo amico," February 4, 2003, email,
the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John Ravilious, references
Monasticon Anglicanum, 3: 25 - Charter for Thomas filius Hugonis
Dispensatoris.
15. Rev. H. E. Salter, M.A., ed., "Eynsham Cartulary," Oxford: Oxford
Historical Society (Clarendon Press), 1907 (Vols I-II, vols. 49
and 51 of the series), p. 149 (charter of Thomas 'filius Hugonis
dispensatoris' of a virgate in Woodeaton, co. Oxon).
16. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved in
Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
17. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The Commissioners
of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835, full
title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis,
Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
18. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk.cmh/gaz/
19. The Pipe Roll of the Twenty-second year of King Henry II., A.D.
1175-6 [The Publications of the Pipe Roll Society, 1904], XXV:185.
* John P. Ravilious
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
A correction is noted below:
the...@aol.com wrote:
> Monday, 16 January, 2006
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Below please find the male line descent, as currently known, from
> Hugh 'I' de Berges to his great-great grandson, Sir Hugh le Despenser
> (d. bef 31 May 1238). The correct link in this descent, showing Thomas
> le Despenser as son of Geoffrey le Despenser, is thanks to the recent
> discovery by Clive West.
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> 1.1.1.1 Thomas le Despenser[6]
> ----------------------------------------
> Death: ca 1207[4]
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> amerced 40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire, as
> noted by Farrer [9]. The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II
> identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges:
>
> " De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'.
> Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia
> pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s.
> ....
> Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro
> eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19]
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< correction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
recte:
> identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his UNCLE, Hugh de Berges:
<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> * John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
Great job on the Despenser family. I have a couple of quick comments.
First, I'm unable to tell how you have proved that Geoffrey le
Despenser and his brother, Ives de Alspath, were sons of Ansketil de
Berges. Can you explain that? Also, I see you have used the Latin
form Ivo, which should be replaced by Ives.
Rohese, daughter of Thomas le Despenser (I) (died c.1207), married
Stephen de Segrave, not Gilbert de Segrave as you have stated in one
place.
Lastly, back in 2002, I posted that Thomas le Despenser (died c. 1207)
had another son, William le Despenser, who died in or before 1242,
leaving lands at Loughborough, Leicestershire. William's heir was his
nephew, Hugh le Despenser II (died 1265). For evidence of William's
existence, see Curia Regis Rolls, 17 (1991): 140, 291-292.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for the kind words.
And, the correction on the Segrave husband (type first, think
later....;)
Will get back to you a bit later, as soon as I have a spot of
time to respond in detail.
Cheers,
John
mwelc...@yahoo.com
I would also like to say very nice job on the Despenser family.
Cheers,
Mike
Merilyn Pedrick
Dear John
Thankyou so much for this interesting line.
About halfway down you say :
'Thomas Dispensator gave to Stephen de Segrave with Roese his daughter in
free marriage a rent of 2s in Burton', to them and the heirs of their bodies
(CP IV: 259n)[6]
Children: Geoffrey (dvp -<1191)
Thomas le Despenser, of Loughborough(-<1218)
Sir Hugh (-<1238)
Rohese, m. Gilbert de Segrave
Henry (->1213)
Robert (->1215)
Geoffrey le Despenser, of Martley (-1251)
I have Stephen de Segrave as the husband of Rohese le Despenser, and Gilbert
as Stephen's father (died before 1202) and another Gilbert as Stephen's son
(1176-1201) who married Amabil de Chaucombe.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
therein; de Cantilupe to see that the Constable gets the cattle and stock,
WJho...@aol.com
<< " Hugo Dispensar' ", inherited Arnesby and Loughborough, co. Leics. on
death
of brother Thomas, before Oct 1218[6]:
' " Hugo Dispensar' " gave the lord King 25 solidi for his relief due for
1 knight's fee in Arnesby [Erendebi], which he acquired by the death
of Thomas le Despenser [ "Thome Dispensar' "] his firstborn brother,
whose heir he is.' Excerpta e Rotulis Finium I:18[17] >>
Do you read this "firstborn brother" to mean that Thomas was the eldest
brother?
That is that he is older than Geoffrey ["the Elder"] who d.v.p. ? [bef 1191]
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
No, I don't ascribe that definition in this case.
Assuming the original document was in Latin, we can assume the
term "primogenitus" was used. However, I think it far more likely that
Thomas le Despenser would have named his first-born son Geoffrey, after
his own father. When Geoffrey was born, and how old he was when he
died, we don't know - other than that he died in 1190 or before, given
one of the witnesses was Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester who died
in 1190.
It may well be that Thomas was the eldest brother whom Hugh knew
in growing up; if this was the case, using the term "primogenitus" in
the grant would be somewhat natural. For that matter, Thomas may have
been the oldest Despenser sibling known to the clerk who drew up the
fine, who then called him 'primogenitus' based on his own
misunderstanding. Likely we will never know for sure......
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
Dear Doug (et al.),
In your good post of the other day, you had asked how it had
been proved that Geoffrey le Despenser and his brother Ives (or
Ivo) de Alspath were the sons of Aschetil (Anschetil) de Berges.
1. We know that Geoffrey and Ivo were brothers from the
charter evidence provided by Barraclough in The Charters
of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester. See prior threads
on SGM, esp. <Origins of the Despensers (con't)> (31 Dec
2002 et seq.). The charters which are particularly
relevant are #s 25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 72, 73, 82, 83,
85, and 99.
The witnesses to these charters are given, in part, as
‘ Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo...’ [charter
#82]. See also evidence given on the A2A site, esp. the
following charter witnessed by "Ivo de Hallespad' ", and
" Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother", dated ca. 1155x1167:
' Confirmation from Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester
to God and Saint Mary of Cumba and the monks of the
Cistercian order there serving God, for the souls of his
father and mother and ancestors and for the safety of his
own body and soul and of his wife and children, of the gift
of his father Robert to the said abbey of the land of Smithe
which Richard de Camvilla held of his (Robert the younger's)
fee.
Witnesses: Richard abbot of Legr', Thurstan abbot of Gerad'
[Garendon], Robert abbot of Pipwell', Ralph Basset, William de
Hasting', William Burdet, Ernulf de Bosco, Ivo de Harwecurt,
Richard Mall' and Ancarill' Mall' his brother, Ivo de
Hallespad', Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother and many
others. ' [A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], DEEDS AND
PAPERS: Warwickshire: Combe alias Smite, DR10/192 ]
2. We know that Ivo de Alspath and Ivo filius Aschetilli
were the same individual, as Ivo de Alspath's grant to
the monks of St. Nicholas in recompense for his actions
at Coventry during the siege of 1144-5 [A2A, Shakespeare
Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970], DEEDS AND PAPERS: Warwickshire:
Meriden (Alspath): DR10/524 ] were confirmed by
his grandson James Brito, or le Bret, ca. 1220:
' Confirmation from James Brito, lord of Allespathe to the
monks of St. Nicholas of kerkebi [Monks Kirby] of a virgate
of land together with all increments in Allespathe,
formerly belonging to Godwin and his heirs, which was
granted in frankalmoign to the said monks by Ivo, son of
Aschetillus, grandfather of the said James in recompense
for injuries he had done to the said monks during the civil
war.
Witnesses: Robert chaplain, Alard, deacon de Widibroc
[Withybrook], William de Waure [Brownsover], William de
Neuham, William de Hardredeshul [Hartshill], John the
clerk, William 'Servulo'(?) ' [A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace
Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970] , DEEDS AND PAPERS: Warwickshire:
Meriden (Alspath): DR10/525 ]
3. That Geoffrey le Despenser and Ivo de Alspath (also
called Ivo fitz Aschetil, but 'de Alspath' is the more
familiar name) were younger sons of Aschetil de Berges
is indicated by the fact that the lands in Burton were
held of the senior (de Berges, also de Prestwold) branch
of the family. Thomas le Despenser's gift to Garendon
of the well-known 10 bovates in Burton was confirmed, or
with the 'concession of my lord Asketil de Berges '
["concessu Asketilli de Berges domini mei"].
That no reference to their kinship is made in the charters of
Thomas le Despenser and Aschetil de Berges (or de Prestwold) to
Garendon is not unusual; a charter of Ralph de Queniborough (a
cousin, not uncle of Asketil de Berges and Thomas le Despenser),
superior lord of Asketil in Burton, will be provided in a
forthcoming post, and no mention of the relationship (outside
that of lord and tenant) is made therein.
~ The onomastic evidence of the names in the de Berges/de
Prestwold family and that of the Despensers ( brothers Thomas and
Elias occuring in each ) is interesting and supportive of the
kinship, as well.
Cheers,
John *
* John P. Ravilious