Father of Peronelle/Pernel de Grandmesnil

61 views
Skip to first unread message

Christine Czarnecki

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 3:20:02 AM11/5/10
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Leo's fine website has the lady in question, Peronelle or Pernel de Grandmesnil,
wife of Robert de Beaumont, 3rd Earl of Leicester:

http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00120983&tree=LEO

He shows her father to be Hughes de Grandmesnil, Senechal of England.

However, Richardson's edition of _Magna Carta Ancestry_ shows her father as
Willam Grandmesnil (page 683).

Can anyone help me sort this out?

Christine

Leo

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 3:43:08 AM11/5/10
to Christine Czarnecki, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Dear Christine,

I can offer only secondary sources. One is Europaische Stammtafeln Volume
III/4 Tafel 700 which gave her father as Hugues, Senechal of England.
Sources for Tafels 700/701A/702-704 is quite a list.

CP Volume VII page 530-532 (really 532) makes a different observation. In
the main text her parents are not discovered but she is a
great-granddaughter of (a) Hugues 'the Domesday Tenant'. In footnote h, is
again mention of a Hugues as her father with the notation "this is clearly
wrong" and goes into great detail.

With best wishes.
Leo

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 10:29:10 AM11/5/10
to can...@netspeed.com.au, czar...@sbcglobal.net, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Pernel is called the "great-granddaughter" of Hugh de Grantmesnil, so we
know she belongs in this family somewhere.

Medlands has a write up on this problem as well

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMAN%20NOBILITY.htm#HuguesGrantmesnildied1
098

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 3:30:27 PM11/5/10
to
> > GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dear Leo, Christine, Will, et al.,

The best summary I've seen re: the descent from Hugh de
Grandmesnil to Petronilla, countess of Leicester, can be found in
Chris Phillip's fine webpage on Corrections and Additions to the
Complete Peerage. See the website medievalgenealogy.org.uk,
specifically the following URL:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/leicester.shtml


The probable descent (not showing all siblings) is likely as
follows:

Hugh de Grandmesnil = Adeliza de Beaumont-sur-Oise
_________________I
I
Robert de Grandmesnil = 1) Agnes de = 2) Emma de
_______________I Bayeux I Stuteville
I I_______
I I
William de Grandmesnil Beatrix 'de Rye'
I
I
Petronilla (or Pernel) = Robert de Beaumont
I 3rd Earl of Leicester
I
V


It would also be worthwhile to examine K. S. B. Keats-Rohan's
discussion of Hugh de Grandmesnil and descendants in Domesday People
(pp. 262-3).

Cheers,

John

Peter Stewart

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 6:07:59 PM11/5/10
to

"Christine Czarnecki" <czar...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.400.12889416...@rootsweb.com...

As John Ravilious has posted, Pernel's father was named William.

There are two candidates of this name around the right time in the family of
Grandmesnil - one was the son of Robert II apparently by his second wife,
Emma de Stuteville, and the other was a son of Robert II's brother Guilluame
of Cotrone by Robert Guiscard's daughter Mabilia known as 'Curta-lupa'.

Interestingly, one or other of these was perhaps married to a lady named
Agatha - they are recorded in an obituary under 3 October, "Willelmus de
Grandmesnil et uxor ejus Agatha".

The names Agatha and Petronilla (or Pernel) notably occur together in the
comital family of Vendôme - Foulques l'Oison (died 1066) and his wife
Petronilla of Château-Renaud had a daughter Agatha (living 1106) who married
Raoul Payen of Montreveau (died 1098), a son of Raoul IV, viscount of
Beaumont.

However, there were of course other families closer to Grandmesnil using
each of these names - for instance, Robert Giroie had a daughter Agatha by
his second wife Felicia of Connerré.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

unread,
Nov 5, 2010, 6:42:11 PM11/5/10
to

"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ib211h$15a$1...@news.eternal-september.org...

<snip>

> The names Agatha and Petronilla (or Pernel) notably occur together in the

> comital family of Vend�me - Foulques l'Oison (died 1066) and his wife
> Petronilla of Ch�teau-Renaud had a daughter Agatha (living 1106) who

> married Raoul Payen of Montreveau (died 1098), a son of Raoul IV, viscount
> of Beaumont.
>
> However, there were of course other families closer to Grandmesnil using
> each of these names - for instance, Robert Giroie had a daughter Agatha by

> his second wife Felicia of Connerr�.

I should have added that Robert Giroie's family used both names, though not
in close association - his cousin Ernold, seigneur of �chauffour, had a
daughter named Pernel (who became a nun in Angers) by his wife Emma.

Peter Stewart

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Nov 6, 2010, 12:45:35 AM11/6/10
to pss...@bigpond.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Cawley claims to be citing Orderic when he states that Agnes the first
wife of Robert de Grantmesnil was a daughter of Ralph who was Earl of Chester.

If by Lucy filia Turold then Agnes could not be born any earlier than
1098. If this Agnes had a son William born 1114 say, then his own daughter,
whom you say is this Petronille could not be born any earlier than 1132. But
is not one of Petronille's daughters Amicie de Beaumont mother of Simon
Montfort, 5th Earl of Leicester ?

It makes a hard fit, very narrow. In addition to the problem, in my mind,
that Robert Grantmesnil had to be *at least* 39 years older than his
supposed wife and possibly as much as 70 ! It sounds more like there's a
missing generation there of some kind.


Peter Stewart

unread,
Nov 6, 2010, 5:32:14 AM11/6/10
to

<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.420.12890187...@rootsweb.com...

You may, or may not, be surprised to learn that Cawley has got it wrong -
merely citing Orderic is of course worthless if the source has been
misinterpreted. Why people will persist in using Medieval Lands as a first
(and far too frequently last or only) point of reference despite detailed
warnings I do not understand.

Orderic says that Robert de Grantmesnil's first wife Agnes was a daughter of
Ranulf of Bayeux ("Primo duxit Agnetem Ranulfi Baiocensis filiam"), i.e of
the viscount who died in November 1120, and not of his son Ranulf, earl of
Chester, who married Lucy and died in January 1129.

Peter Stewart


Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages