Thierstein or Tierstein

[Leo]

James Dow Allen wrote :

In some on-line genealogies a "Rudolf von Thierstein, Graf/Landgraf im
Sisgau" is shown, with death after 1048, and up to three sons:

* Rudolf (II) von Thierstein, m. Ita Habsburg, d. after 1114

* Rudolf von Honberg, Bishop of Basel, d. 1122

* Heinrich von Thierstein, Sire of Lastic, m. Albéarde de Mercoeur

According to ES Volume XI Tafel 132, Rudolf (II) was Graf von Tierstein and Graf von Homberg.
He was _possibly_ a son of Rudolf I, Graf im Sisgau, and _possibly_ had one brother, Rudolf the bishop of Basel.

Hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

[James Dow Allen]

On Feb 10, 3:31 am, "Leo" <can2...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
> According to ES Volume XI Tafel 132, Rudolf (II) was Graf von Tierstein and Graf von Homberg.
> He was _possibly_ a son of Rudolf I, Graf im Sisgau, and _possibly_ had one brother, Rudolf the bishop of Basel.

Note that Rudolf von Rheinfelden, the "anti-king"
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy )
"... first appeared in 1048 in a document of Emperor Henry III
as Count in Sisgau at Rheinfelden." (But this Rudolf
allegedly left no sons.)

So, two Rudolfs: one first known as Graf im Sisgau 1048,
the other last known as Graf im Sisgau 1048. They have
similar heraldry. I could speculate on a connection,
but would prefer to hear comments from experts.

James

[Peter Stewart]

On 13/02/2012 5:16 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:
> On Feb 10, 3:31 am, "Leo"<can2...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
>> According to ES Volume XI Tafel 132, Rudolf (II) was Graf von Tierstein and Graf von Homberg.
>> He was _possibly_ a son of Rudolf I, Graf im Sisgau, and _possibly_ had one brother, Rudolf the bishop of Basel.
> Note that Rudolf von Rheinfelden, the "anti-king"
> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy )
> "... first appeared in 1048 in a document of Emperor Henry III
> as Count in Sisgau at Rheinfelden." (But this Rudolf
> allegedly left no sons.)

Rudolf of Rheinfelden did leave a son, Berthold, who died unmarried in 1090.

>
> So, two Rudolfs: one first known as Graf im Sisgau 1048,
> the other last known as Graf im Sisgau 1048. They have
> similar heraldry. I could speculate on a connection,
> but would prefer to hear comments from experts.

Some historians have identified Rudolf who was count in the SIsgau on 1
June 1048 with Rudolf of Rheinfelden, following an edition of Emperor
Heinrich III's charter of that date in *Monuments de l'histoire de
l'ancien évêché de Bâle*, edited by Joseph Trouillat &Louis Vautrey, vol
1 (1852) p 179 note 4.

However, Karl Gauss in 'Die Landgrafschaft im Sisgau', *Basler
Zeitschrift für Geschichte und Altertumskunde* 14 (1915) identified the
Count Rudolf of 1048 as a son of Lanthold (Lanzelin) of Altenburg, son
of Guntramn the Rich (ancestor of the Hapsburgs), whom he traced back in
the male line to the Etichonids. In this version Rudolf was father of a
namesake living in 1082, whose son Rudolf was count of Tierstein-Homberg
and ancestor of a male line that flourished for centuries.

Peter Stewart