C.P.Correction: Anne Durward, wife of William de Ferrers, Knt., of Groby, Leicestershire

724 views
Skip to first unread message

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 19, 2008, 12:35:49 AM12/19/08
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

This week I encountered the following reference online:

In the book, Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland (1871): 63–67, I found this
information:

“And in a note we are further ‘informed, that in a MS. collection of
English records, the second wife of William Ferrers, who died 16th
Edward I., is stated to have been Comitissa de Fife, in Scotia, vidua
Colbani et mater Macduffi, Comitum de Fife.’ —Douglas’s Peerage of
Scotland, second edition, edited by J.P. Wood, vol. i, p. 429.” END
OF QUOTE.

The William de Ferrers named in this record is easily recognized as
Sir William de Ferrers, Knt. (died 1287), of Groby, Leicestershire,
and of Scotland, who died in 1287. He was the younger son of William
de Ferrers, Earl of Derby, by his 2nd wife, Margaret de Quincy.
Regarding Sir William de Ferrers' marriages, Complete Peerage says
that he "married (1stly) Anne, said to have been a daughter of Sir
Hugh le Despenser, of Ryhall, Rutland, Loughborough, co. Leicester,
Parlington, co. York, etc., sometime Justiciar of England, by Aline,
daughter and heir of Philip Basset, of Wycombe, Bucks, etc., also
Justiciar of England." END OF QUOTE.

However, this statement about Anne's parentage is completely
unsourced. So there appears to be no documentation that William de
Ferrers' wife, Anne, was a member of the Despenser family.

Checking around further, I located a Scottish account of the marriage
of William de Ferrers and his 1st wife, Anne, widow of Colban, Earl of
Fife. This marriage is mentioned in the ancient chronicle,
Scotichronicon, written by Walter Bower, Book X, as follows:

Sub A.D. 1270: "The death also occurred of Colban earl of Fife, whose
earldom was entrusted to Alexander the king's son until Colban's son
[Duncan], the true heir and a boy of eight, came of age .... In the
same year William Ferrers, son of the countess of Ferrers, who was the
daughter of Roger de Quincy constable of Scotland, married the widow
of Colban who had recently died, and received the dignity of
constable, which Alexander [Comyn] earl of Buchan unjustly held on the
strength of his wife, who was a younger daughter of the said Roger de
Quincy." END OF QUOTE. [Reference: Walter Bower, Scotichronicon, 5
(Books IX and X) (1987): 381, modern edition edited by Simon Taylor
and D.E.R. Watt with Brian Scott].

In an editorial note in the same volume found on page 485, the
following information is provided by the editors regarding Anne, wife
successively of Colban, Earl of Fife, and William de Ferrers:

"... the widow of Colban earl of Fife , was called Anne; she was the
the daughter of Sir Hugh le Despenser, who had served as justiciar of
England during the period of Baronial Reform, and had died at Evesham
(C.P., iv, 261); cf. Scots Peerage, iv, 10–11 where it is suggested
without evidence that she was daughter of Alan Durward." END OF
QUOTE.

Actually the reverse is true. Complete Peerage cites no whatsoever
evidence as to Anne's identity as the daughter of Hugh le Despenser.
But Scots Peerage cites a charter which suggests that Anne, wife of
Earl Colban, was Sir Alan Durward's daughter.

Since the above material has turned up, I've consulted with Andrew
B.W. MacEwen, of Maine, the resident expert in all things Scottish.
Mr. MacEwen stated he recently had correspondence with Professor
Duncan regarding the very charter cited as evidence by Scots Peerage
which suggests that Anne, wife of Earl Colban, was the daughter of Sir
Alan Durward. Having obtained and reviewed a full transcript of the
charter (which is privately held), both Mr. MacEwen and Professor
Duncan are convinced that Anne, wife of Earl Colban, was in fact the
daughter of Sir Alan Durward.

This same opinion is held by the historian, Matthew Hammond, who wrote
a recent article on the Durward family entitled "Hostiarii Regis
Scotie: the Durward Famiy in the Thirteenth Century," which appeared
in 2003 on pages 118-138 in the book, The Exercise of Power in
Medieval Scotland, c. 1200-1500, edited by Steve Boardman and Alasdair
Ross. Specifically, on page 133, Mr. Hammond states:

"Colban, earl of Fife, and his wife Anna, probably Alan Durward's
daughter, granted the land of Glensalauch in the Mearns, which they
held of Alan Durward and Alan held of the king, to Magister William
Wishart,...'

The grant in question was made with the consent of Earl Colban's wife,
Anne, which implies that this property was part of Anne's tocher or
maritagium. As stated by Hammond, the property was held direct of
Alan Durward, and he held it of the king, which makes it virtually
certain that Alan Durward was Anne's father. The charter was
witnessed by the king and also by Alan Durward himself.

On page 136, Hammond provides us with further evidence. Referring to
a charter of Earl Duncan, son of Earl Colban and his wife, Anne,
Hammond states:

"His [Duncan's] charter refers to Alan Durward as 'propinquus',
indicating a close relationship." [Reference: Kinnoull Charters,
Perth, no. 114].

Earl Duncan's charter is evidently another privately held charter.
The term "propinquus" as used by Earl Duncan would typically refer to
someone who is near related, such as son, nephew, uncle, etc. The
term often occurs in English inquisitions post mortem and refers to
one's immediate heir. While I've never seen the term used for one's
grandfather, I don't see why it couldn't be applied to one's immediate
ancestor, as the term doesn't involve any implication of succession,
only nearness of kindred.

Beyond the two charters mentioned above, there is additional evidence
which supports the identification of Anne, wife of Earl Colban, as Sir
Alan Durward's daughter. At the time of his death in 1275,
Scotichronicon states that Sir Alan Durward was buried at the
monastery of Coupar Angus, and "his lands were divided amongst his
three daughters." [Reference: Walter Bower, Scotichronicon, 5 (Books
IX and X) (1987): 403].

Thus, if Anne, wife of Earl Colban and William de Ferrers, was a
daughter and co-heir of Sir Alan Durward, one would expect to find
parts of Sir Alan Durward's lands subsequently held by Anne's son and
heir, Duncan, Earl of Fife. In fact, that is exactly what the
evidence shows. Two of Sir Alan Durward's significant possessions
included the castle of Coull, Aberdeenshire, and the barony of
Kincardine Oneil, both of which passed to the Earls of Fife.

Elsewhere I note that the following recent two works accept Anne, wife
of Earl Colban, as a Durward, or as the daughter of Sir Alan Durward:

1. Lamont-Brown, Fife in History & Legend (2002): x (identifies Ann,
wife of Colbran, Earl of Fife, as “daughter of Sir Alan Durward.)"

2. McAndrew Scotland’s Historic Heraldry (2006): 37 (pedigree of Earls
of Fife) (identifies Anne, wife of Colban, 8th Earl of Fife, as “Anne
Durward”).

As for Sir Alan Durward, he was a prominent individual in his day. He
held the office of Usher of the King of Scots, and also served as
Justiciar of Scotland, 1243–1251x1252, 1255. His wife was Marjory,
the illegitimate daughter of Alexander II, King of Scots. In 1255 he
was appointed one of the guardians of King Alexander III of Scotland
during the king’s minority. He died as stated above in 1275.

The new Durward connection for William de Ferrers's wife, Anne, gives
this family an illustrious pedigree indeed, as Anne's maternal
grandfather, Alexander II, King of Scots, was descended from the Kings
of Scotland, England, and France, and from many other prominent
medieval personages, such as Isabel de Vermandois and Countess Judith,
the niece of William the Conqueror.

Those wishing to see a quick review of the extended ancestry of
Marjory of Scotland, wife of Sir Alan Durward, may do so at the
following weblink:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I13595&style=TEXT

This material should be verified against reliable sources. One
immediate error I spot is that Marjory of Scotland is placed as the
1st wife of Sir Alan Durward. It is now believed that Marjory of
Scotland was Sir Alan Durward's only wife.

For interest's sake, I've copied below a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Anne Durward, Countess of Fife, the
first wife of Sir William de Ferrers:

Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, William Bladen, George &
Nathaniel Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles &
Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, St.Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry
Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas
Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel
& William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Amy Wyllys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Dec 19, 2008, 8:35:32 AM12/19/08
to
Dear Doug,

Many thanks for this informative post. The passage of Coull and
Kincardine from Durward to the Earls of Fife is verifiable (see SP IV:
11, 14). The fact that there was no evidence of Anne being a
Despenser has long been of interest: this in itself presented a
problem, given the inferred consanguinity between Sir William's
granddaughter (named Anne) and her husband Sir Edward le Despenser (k.
30 Sept 1342).

There is an interesting note re: Sir William de Ferrers in
Complete Peerage that is relevant. Sir William, a younger son of
William, Earl of Derby and his wife Margaret de Quincy, had livery of
English lands at Woodham Ferrers, Essex and elsewhere ca. 1256: he
then exchanged them with his mother, in order to receive lands from
her in "Galloway and Scotland", including Leuchars in Fife [CP V:343,
footnote]. A reason for this exchange had never been detected: given
that William was of the nobility and a major landholder in Scotland,
and Fife in particular, his marriage to Anne, Countess Dowager of Fife
in 1270 or early 1271 is not surprising.

Much appreciated!

Cheers,

John

> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I...

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 19, 2008, 10:30:49 AM12/19/08
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

The following is a short biography of Sir Alan Durward (died 1275),
Usher of the King, Justiciar of Scotland, sometime Earl of Atholl,
which is taken from Wikipedia.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Sir Alan Durward

Alan Hostarius or Alan Durward (Scottish Gaelic: Ailean Dorsair †
1275) was the son of Thomas de Lundin, a grandson of Gille Críst,
Mormaer of Mar. His mother's name is unknown, but she was almost
certainly a daughter of Máel Coluim, Mormaer of Atholl, meaning that
Alan was the product of two Gaelic comital families.

Alan was one of the most important political figures of 13th century
Scotland, and in fact effectively ruled the country at several points
during the minority of Alexander III (Gaelic: Alasdair III mac
Alasdair). Through his father Thomas, he inherited the office of
hostarius, protector of the king's property. Alan probably
participated in the campaign to crush the insurrection of Meic Uilleim
(Mac Williams) in 1228-29. By 1233, and probably before, Alan was
given control of Urquhart on the shores of Loch Ness. Alan was almost
certainly responsible for the earliest motte phase of Urquhart Castle.

At the same point in time, between 1233 and 1235, Alan was styling
himself "Count of Atholl". It has often been thought that, after the
death of Thomas of Galloway, Earl of Atholl in 1232, Isabella,
Countess of Atholl, married Alan. This however, rests solely on the
appearance of Alan's styles. However, as Matthew Hammond has shown,
this more is more likely to refer to fact that Alan, as a grandson of
Máel Coluim, Earl of Atholl, probably sought to inherit the province;
by January 9, 1234, King Alexander seems to have recognized this
style. However, by the time of a charter of July 7, 1235, the style
had disappeared and Alan was never called "Count" (Mormaer or Earl)
again. Alan, like his father Thomas, would also challenge the rights
of the Mormaers of Mar. Alan was descended from Gille Crist, Mormaer
of Mar. However, Gille Críst's descendents had been excluded from
inheritance by the line of Morggán, Mormaer of Mar, who were
monopolizing the comital title. Alan tried and failed to oust Uilleam
from his title. It would be the greatest failure of Alan's career that
he failed to rise to comital rank.

Alan's illustrious career was marked by intense rivarly with the
Comyns. The rivarly was a national phenomenon, and represented a
larger factional conflict within the kingdom. There may have been some
reconcilliation towards the end of his life. Alan was made Justiciar
of Scotia along with Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, and campaigned
with the latter in two expeditions against the Norwegians. Alan even
witnessed one of Earl Alexander's charters in 1272.
Alan spent many of his later years in England. During the minority of
Alexander III, Alan had courted the favour of King Henry III of
England in an effort to stay in power. The King of the English even
gave Alan his own English manor, Bolsover, Derbyshire.

He died in 1275. He was buried in the Abbey of Coupar Angus. Alan had
married Marjory, a bastard daughter of King Alexander II, by whom he
had three children, Ermengarde (who married William de Soules, the
royal butler), Anna (who married Colbán, Mormaer of Fife), and another
daughter whose name is not known (she married John Bisset). Alan also
had at least one bastard son, Thomas Durward. None of these children
carried on their father's illustrious political career.

References:

Barrow, G.W.S., "Badenoch and Strathspey, 1130-1312: 1 Secular and
Political" in Northern Scotland, VIII, pp. 1-15

Hammond, Matthew H., "The Durward family in the thirteenth century",
in Steve Boardman and Alasdair Ross (eds.), The Exercise of Power in
Medieval Scotland, c.1200–1500, (Dublin/Portland, 2003), pp. 118-38
[Ref: Wikipedia online at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Durward]

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 24, 2008, 8:36:38 PM12/24/08
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

You'll find it stated in print that Sir Alan Durward's wife was
Marjory, the illegitimate daughter of King Alexander II of Scotland.
However, as with the name change of the Fitz Alan family to Arundel,
it's always good to see the actual evidence which proves what you find
in secondary sources.

Fortunately, Marjory (or if you prefer Margery) is specifically named
as Sir Alan Durward's wife in a contemporary charter dated 1251, which
Sir Alan issued to Lindores Abbey. A full transcript of the charter
in Latin, with an accompanying English translation, is found in
Dowden, Chartulary of the Abbey of Lindores, 1198–1479 (Scottish Hist.
Soc. 42) (1903): 85–88. It may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=El0LAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA88&dq=Lindores+Alan#PRA2-PA85,M1

Specifically, the charter reads as follows:

"To all the faithful in Christ who shall see or hear the present writ,
Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland, health everlasting in the Lord,
Know all of you that on Tuesday within the octave of the Apostles
Peter and Paul [4 July], in the year of grace, MCCLI [1251], for the
soul of my Lord, Alexander, of pious memory, late illustrious King of
Scotland, and for the weal of my soul, and of Margery my wife, and of
all my ancestors and successors, ...." END OF QUOTE.

I might note that the charter is witnessed by Sir Alan Durward's
brother, Sir Colin Durward. The editor has correctly translated
"Domino Colino Hostiario" as "Sir Colin Durward," Sir Colin being a
knight as stated in the text.

lostc...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 12:45:54 AM12/25/08
to
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I...

>
> This material should be verified against reliable sources.  One
> immediate error I spot is that Marjory of Scotland is placed as the
> 1st wife of Sir Alan Durward.  It is now believed that Marjory of
> Scotland was Sir Alan Durward's only wife.
>
> For interest's sake, I've copied below a list of the 17th Century New
> World immigrants that descend from Anne Durward, Countess of Fife, the
> first wife of Sir William de Ferrers:
>
> Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, William Bladen, George &
> Nathaniel Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles &
> Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode,
> Jeremy Clarke, St.Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
> Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry
> Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
> Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
> Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas
> Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas
> Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
> William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel
> & William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Amy Wyllys.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Unless I find a major research mishap in the more recent generations,
I may have a colonial American of royal descent from this couple
heretofore unmentioned.. If there are any problems that jump out
(other than my not mentioning many references in this post), please
advise.

Richard Anderson, born 1618 London, died 1662. He and his wife, Mary,
and at least one child, Robert Anderson "of Gold Mine", c.1640-1712,
arrived in Virginia colony about 1670. Richard was the son of
Sir Richard Anderson, born 1585 Pendley-d. 3 Aug 1632 Tring; married 1
Jan 1605 to Mary Spencer, 1588 Althorp-14 Jul 1658 Richmond, Surrey.
(Sir Richard's will, dated 5 Oct 1630, proved 27 Aug 1632, mentions
Richard).

Mary Spencer was the daughter of Sir Robert Spencer of Althorp, 1st
Baron of Wormleighton, 1570-25 Oct 1627; married 15 Feb 1587 in
Brington, Northampton, to Margaret Willoughby, c.1560-17 Aug 1597.

Margaret Willoughby was the daughter of Sir Francis Willoughby of
Wollaton who d. c. 16 Nov 1596. He married Elizabeth Lyttleton of
Frankley. Their marital relations were apparently quite infamous & at
one stormy point required some sort of intervention by the Queen
(according to Richard L. Greaves in SOCIETY AND RELIGION IN
ELIZABETHAN ENGLAND (University of Minnesota Press, 1981, p. 264).

Elizabeth Lyttleton was the daughter of Sir John Lyttleton of
Frankley, 1520-15 Feb 1590, and Bridget Packington.

Sir John Lyttleton was the son of John Lyttleton, c. 1500-17 May 1532
and Elizabeth Talbot.

John was the son of Sir William Lyttleton of Frankley, c.1444-Dec
1507, and Mary Whittington of Pauntley.

Sir William was the son of Thomas Lyttleton of Frankley, a Judge, d.
23 Aug 1481, and Joan Burley, c.1425-22 March 1505 (her 1st husband
being Sir Philip Chetwynd).

Joan Burley was the daughter of Sir William Burley of Bromcroft,
Speaker of the House of Commons, c.1390-10 Aug 1458, and Alice/Juliana
Grey.

Alice/Juliana Grey was the daughter of Richard Grey of Wilton, 6th
Baron, d. Aug 1442; about 1427 married Margaret Ferrers.

Margaret was the daughter of William Ferrers, 5th Earl Ferrers of
Groby, 25 Apr 1372-18 May 1445; married 10 Oct 1388 to Philippe de
Clifford, d. after 4 Jul 1405. He, of course, is the lineal descendant
of Sir William and, apparently, Anne Durward . So, folks, might I have
something here with my Andersons?
Thank you, Bronwen

wjhonson

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 1:04:58 AM12/25/08
to
On Dec 24, 9:45 pm, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Unless I find a major research mishap in the more recent generations,
> I may have a colonial American of royal descent from this couple
> heretofore unmentioned.. If there are any problems that jump out
> (other than my not mentioning  many references in this post), please
> advise.
>
>Richard Anderson, born 1618 London, died 1662. He and his wife, Mary,
and at least one child, Robert Anderson "of Gold Mine", c.1640-1712,
arrived in Virginia colony about 1670. Richard was the son of
Sir Richard Anderson, born 1585 Pendley-d. 3 Aug 1632 Tring; married 1
Jan 1605 to Mary Spencer, 1588 Althorp-14 Jul 1658 Richmond, Surrey.
(Sir Richard's will, dated 5 Oct 1630, proved 27 Aug 1632, mentions
Richard).
>
------------------

Let's stop right here, unless you can cite your source.
Burke's Extinct Baronetcies states that Sir Richard died in 1653
So whoever the Richard of the 1630 will was, it evidently wasn't Sir
Richard.
Perhaps you can cite it?

Thanks

Will Johnson


jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 1:43:41 AM12/25/08
to

You may want to check more reliable sources than Burke's Extinct
Baronetcies. For example, Cokayne's "Complete Baronetage", 2:211,
says that Sir Richard Anderson, father of the 1st baronet, died 3 Aug
1630 (not 1653 as in BEB). Although this obviously doesn't agree with
the will dates mentioned in the previous post,it certainly is closer
to those than the date given by BEB and thus would cast serious doubt
on the accuracy of BEB (if you really believe in the accuracy of that
source).

FWIW, CB says that there is a pedigree of this family in Clutterbuck's
Herts, 1:285.

It may well be possible to find some error in this proposed line, but
citing the unreliable BEB clearly won't do, at least this time.

wjhonson

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 1:52:41 AM12/25/08
to

It isn't really a question of the source being accurate. But merely
counteracting a positing of "no source whatsoever" with a position of
"here's one source". That's the way I look at it.

I don't need the best sources, to balance a post with no sources. I
just need any well-utilized source. By the way, you source is equally
inaccurate if you consider that they are off by two years, the date he
was buried per an article in NEGHR which says he was buried on 3 Aug
1632. At Tring.

So there ! Take that.


Will Johnson

lostc...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 2:10:18 AM12/25/08
to
> Will Johnson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My source for the information on the will was *Anderson Family
Records" by William Pope Anderson, W.F. Schaefer Press, 1936. The most
recent dates that you cite on your post, including the date of burial,
give some credence to the dates I found. The explicit statement that
the Richard Anderson who went to Virginia was the son of Sir Richard &
Mary Spencer may be found in *Genealogical Gleanings of Siggins and
Other Pennsylvania Families* by Emma Siggins White, 1918, p. 514. He
was granted 727 acres in New Kent, Virginia, for having transported 15
persons according to Land Office Book 7, p. 272, cited by Marion
Dewoody Pettigrew in *Marks-Barnett Families and Their Kin*, J.W.
Burke Co., 1939. According to that same source, he was on board a
ship called "Merchant's Hope". Bronwen

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 2:14:18 AM12/25/08
to

Actually, Bronwen did specify a source: the will of Sir Richard,
which mentions his son Richard. The fact that she didn't say where
that will could be found is not really pertinent, since a
knowledgeable reader interested in the will could be expected to know
where to find it.

So BEB is off by 31 years while CB is off by 2 years - hardly "equally
inaccurate".

And some vaguely identified article in NEHGR doesn't in itself add
anything to the discussion without a more complete citation

"I don't need the best sources" - "I just need any well-utilized
source" - ???. Hmmmm - that says a lot....

Merry Christmas!!

wjhonson

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 2:20:48 AM12/25/08
to
On Dec 24, 11:14 pm, jhiggins...@yahoo.com wrote:
> So BEB is off by 31 years while CB is off by 2 years - hardly "equally
> inaccurate".
>
> And some vaguely identified article in NEHGR doesn't in itself add
> anything to the discussion without a more complete citation
>
> "I don't need the best sources" - "I just need any well-utilized
> source" - ???.  Hmmmm - that says a lot....
>
> Merry Christmas!!

----------------
Maybe if we were playing horseshoes!
But we're not.
If CB is off by 2 years that means that they don't have good proof
readers.
So they're wholly unacceptable !!
If they have this error, who knows how many thousands or millions of
errors they may have and ones that are truly extraordinary! So we
should all beware of all sources.

I'm not trying to cite my sources John. I'm not citing them *on
purpose*. And there is a reason for it (thus it's on purpose...)

As long as we're citing *some* sort of source (that can actually be
found easily) we're a step ahead aren't we. I think so.

Will "We're Just Here To Make Friends !" Johnson

wjhonson

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 2:32:26 AM12/25/08
to
On Dec 24, 11:10 pm, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> My source for the information on the will was *Anderson Family
> Records" by William Pope Anderson, W.F. Schaefer Press, 1936. The most
> recent dates that you cite on your post, including the date of burial,
> give some credence to the dates I found. The explicit statement that
> the Richard Anderson who went to Virginia was the son of Sir Richard &
> Mary Spencer may be found in *Genealogical Gleanings of Siggins and
> Other Pennsylvania Families* by Emma Siggins White, 1918, p. 514.  He
> was granted 727 acres in New Kent, Virginia, for having transported 15
> persons according to Land Office Book 7, p. 272, cited by Marion
> Dewoody Pettigrew in *Marks-Barnett Families and Their Kin*, J.W.
> Burke Co., 1939.  According to that same source, he was on board a
> ship called "Merchant's Hope". Bronwen

------------------------------
The problem with "Genealogical Gleanings" by Siggins White is that she
merely *states* that the two Richard Anderson's are the same person,
without providing any confirmatory documentation whatsoever.

There was a minor Richard Anderson named in his father's will in 1630.
Yes.

There was an adult Richard Anderson granted land in Virginia. Yes.

They are the same person. Who knows.
Emma Siggins White doesn't give us any reason to think they are the
same person except their name, and approximate birth ranges.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Dec 25, 2008, 12:08:16 PM12/25/08
to
On Dec 24, 8:36 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> You'll find it stated in print that Sir Alan Durward's wife was
> Marjory, the illegitimate daughter of King Alexander II of Scotland.
> However, as with the name change of the Fitz Alan family to Arundel,
> it's always good to see the actual evidence which proves what you find
> in secondary sources.
>
> Fortunately, Marjory (or if you prefer Margery) is specifically named
> as Sir Alan Durward's wife in a contemporary charter dated 1251, which
> Sir Alan issued to Lindores Abbey.  A full transcript of the charter
> in Latin, with an accompanying English translation, is found in
> Dowden, Chartulary of the Abbey of Lindores, 1198–1479 (Scottish Hist.
> Soc. 42) (1903): 85–88.  It may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=El0LAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA88&dq=Lindores...

>
> Specifically, the charter reads as follows:
>
> "To all the faithful in Christ who shall see or hear the present writ,
> Alan Durward, Justiciar of Scotland, health everlasting in the Lord,
> Know all of you that on Tuesday within the octave of the Apostles
> Peter and Paul [4 July], in the year of grace, MCCLI [1251], for the
> soul of my Lord, Alexander, of pious memory, late illustrious King of
> Scotland, and for the weal of my soul, and of Margery my wife, and of
> all my ancestors and successors, ...."  END OF QUOTE.
>
> I might note that the charter is witnessed by Sir Alan Durward's
> brother, Sir Colin Durward.  The editor has correctly translated
> "Domino Colino Hostiario" as "Sir Colin Durward," Sir Colin being a
> knight as stated in the text.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

.............................

Thursday, 25 December, 2008


Dear Doug, et al.,

Sir Colin Durward (or 'Ostiarius') receives rather scant
attention as he appears in relatively few records, all the more given
the notable career of his brother Alan Durward.

There is an interesting charter of Colin 'Hostiarius' by which
he granted the church of Loythel to the priory of Monymusk of the
church of Loythel; this was confirmed in a subsequent charter from
Philip de Montfichet and his wife Anna, daughter and heiress of Colin:


' Ominibus Christi fidelibus, presens scriptum visuris vel
audituris, Philippus de Monte Scicheter [sic], et Anna filia et heres
Domini Colini Hostoriarii (sic) defuncti, Salutem eternam in Domino.
Noverit universitas vestra, nos divine caritatis intuitu et pro salute
animarum nostrarum, et liberorum nostrorum, necnon et antecessorum et
successorum nostrorum, Dedisse et Concessisse, et quietum pro nobis et
heredibus nostris in perpetuum Clamasse, Deo et Sancte Marie de
Monimusc, et Canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus, et in perpetuum
servituris, totum jus et clameum quod habemus, habuimus, vel habere
poterimus, in quadam dimid. Davach terre in qua sita est Ecclesia de
Loythel, per omnes rectas divisas suas in bosco, in plano, in pascuis,
in pratis, in aquis, nemoribus, in molendinis et omnibus aliis
libertatibus, rectitudinibus et asiamentis, cum communi pastura xv.
vaccarum et centum ovium, cum sequela de duobus annis et iiij
equorum. Habend' et Tenend' dictis Canonicis et eorum successoribus
dictam dimid. Davach cum omnibus suis pertinentiis , sicut predictum
est, in liberam, et quietam, et puram Elemosinam, ab omni auxilio,
exactione et servitio seculari, et consuetudine, ad nos vel heredes
nostros spectantibus. In cujus rei testimonium presente scripto
sigilla nostra apposuimus. Datum apud Loythel &c. Regist. Sti Andr.
p. 432.'
[John Jamieson, ed., An Historical Account of the Culdees of Iona
(Edinburgh: James Ballantyne and Company, 1811), p. 395, no. XV]

This records a connection to the Montfichet family, although this
was evidently not ancestral to Annabela Drummond. Also of interest,
Colin Durward had a daughter Anne: she was a first cousin to Anne
Durward, wife of (1) Colban, Earl of Fife and (2) Sir William de
Ferrers of Groby, and her sisters. Given the parallel shown in the
chart below, one might hazard a guess that the name of Thomas
Durward's wife may have been Anne, or Anna.

Gilchrist
E of Mar
I
I
Malcolm = NN of
de Lundin I Mar
I
I
Thomas Durward = NN [Anne ?] Alexander II
'ostiarius' of the King I K of Scots
I 1214-1249
_____________________I_______ _ _ _ _I
I I I
Sir Colin = Ada Alan Durward = Margery
Durward I 'ostiarius' I
I d. 1275 I
I _________________I______________
I I I I
Philip de = Anne Ermegarde Anne NN
Montfichet = William = 1) Colban = John
de Soulis I E of Fife Bisset
I I = 2) Sir William of Lovat
____________________I ____I I_____ Ferrers ______I__
I I I I I
Nicholas Duncan Sir William Cecilia I
de Soulis E of Fife de Ferrers = William I
'competitor' k. 1289 d. 1324/5 de Fenton I
d. 1296 I I I I
I V V V I
V I
_______________I
I I
Elizabeth Muriel
= Andrew = David
de Bosco de Graham

Cheers, and Merry Christmas to all.

John

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 7, 2019, 12:59:54 AM4/7/19
to
I'm looking for any information you or anyone can tell me on Alan's brother Cailean Durward.

wjhonson

unread,
Apr 7, 2019, 5:00:45 PM4/7/19
to
On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 9:59:54 PM UTC-7, hick...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm looking for any information you or anyone can tell me on Alan's brother Cailean Durward.

Here is one thing

https://books.google.com/books?id=JipXAAAAcAAJ&dq=Philip%20de%20%2FMontfichet%2F%20Anne%20Durward&pg=PR93#v=onepage&q=Philip%20de%20/Montfichet/%20Anne%20Durward&f=false

But do you think you have a mythical ascent to Cailean?

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 7, 2019, 8:35:27 PM4/7/19
to
Not me, but a friend if mine might be related. Not sure as of now. Still trying to get more information on Cailean (Sir Colin) Durward.

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 7, 2019, 8:47:37 PM4/7/19
to
It has to be a Durward. And if Colin only had a girl that would not work.

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 7, 2019, 8:52:27 PM4/7/19
to
If you have information on Alan or Colin Durward it would help. Cause I heard Alan had a bastard son name Thomas Durward, not sure if it's true or not.

wjhonson

unread,
Apr 8, 2019, 5:30:04 AM4/8/19
to
On Sunday, April 7, 2019 at 5:52:27 PM UTC-7, hick...@gmail.com wrote:
> If you have information on Alan or Colin Durward it would help. Cause I heard Alan had a bastard son name Thomas Durward, not sure if it's true or not.

It is extremely doubtful that you have a valid line.
These families have been studied for decades
Present what you have in total and I will tell you where it fails

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 8, 2019, 12:23:44 PM4/8/19
to
We are 100% as far back as James Durward 1842 Scotland-1928 Ontario, Canada. It's when we start to go back to his parents we have problems. If you could help us out to see where it goes that would great. Thanks again for all the help you have given us.
Message has been deleted

wjhonson

unread,
Apr 9, 2019, 3:54:40 PM4/9/19
to
On Monday, April 8, 2019 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-7, hick...@gmail.com wrote:
> We are 100% as far back as James Durward 1842 Scotland-1928 Ontario, Canada. It's when we start to go back to his parents we have problems. If you could help us out to see where it goes that would great. Thanks again for all the help you have given us.


Why do you just say Scotland? When he was married, on his marriage certificate he states that he was born in Forfarshire

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 10, 2019, 5:04:22 PM4/10/19
to
Brechin, Forfar, Scotland birth. Married Elizabeth Oliver 1847 Scotland died birth child birth. They had four kids.

Then married again to Sarah Ellen Spofford 12 March 1884 in Uxbridge township, Ontario. And again had four kids with the second marriage.

James Durward born 29 May 1842 in Brechin, Forfar, Scotland. One thing says his parents are Charles Durward and Elizabeth Gray, the other says it's Charles Durward and Jane Robbie. Not you know why I've asked for help in finding his real parents.

wjhonson

unread,
Apr 11, 2019, 12:59:16 PM4/11/19
to
Instead of saying "one *thing*" specify the sources

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 12, 2019, 6:41:39 PM4/12/19
to
The only source I have for the information is my friend. His grandfather is William Durward born 1888 and married Rosena Minshall His great grandfather is James Durward born 1842 Brechin, Forfar, Scotland. Any other information besides that I would have to talk to my friend. See when James Durward 1842 married again to Sarah Ellen Spofford that is when he had William and the othet kids too, and he had kids from the first marriage too.

hick...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 13, 2019, 1:05:31 AM4/13/19
to
Wikitree for Durwards and familysearch.org
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages