Mottoes (Poem called "Taillerfer"/ Taylor)
BobBecAlln
come into use in England after the invasion of the Normans in 1066 (or before)?
Many of your are familiar with the Norman Knight/Baron/Minstrel Taillefer who
apparently lead the charge of the Normans at the Battle of Hastings (1066).
A book about the Taylor family of Virginia entitled "From Log Cabins to the
White House", by Mary Taylor Brewer (1985) describes an old poem
(English/Norman?) entitled "Taillerfer" which discusses Taillefer's exploits in
the Battle of Hastings. Taillefer apparently was killed in the Battle of
Hastings. The poem allegedly says that when William the Conqueror learned of
Taillefer's death in the Battle of Hastings he posed the following toast:
""Drink to Taillefer all; his heirs shall have a whole country fee, simple
deeded and a motto: Consequitur Quod Cunque Petit".
Is anyone familiar with this poem called "Taillerfer" or "Taillefer"? When was
it written? Who wrote it? Where can a copy be found (hard copy or on the
internet)? Is there any possibility that the story in the poem about the motto
could be true as on 1066?
I am descended from James Taylor who died in King & Queen Co., VA in 1698. The
family rumor is that he possessed and wore a ring which had the Taylor Crest (a
naked dexter arm, embowed, couped at the shoulder, holding an arrow proper) and
the Taylor Motto ("consequitur, quodcunque petit"). The ring which he was
alleged to have worn is mentioned in Crozier. The ring which he was alleged to
have worn still exists today. It is currently possessed by Helen Marie Taylor,
widow of Jaquelin Erasmus Taylor, both direct descendants of said James Taylor.
Helen Marie Taylor lives on property which was formerly owned by James Taylor,
Jr., (son of said James Taylor) and Martha Thompson, in Orange, VA. If there
is a possibility that the account of the Motto of Taillefer granted by William
the Conqueror in 1066 is true, maybe there is a grain of truth in the story
that my James Taylor and the Pringle Taylor discussed in "A Genealogical and
Heraldic History of The Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, by John Burke,
Esq., Vol. IV., pages 237-245 descended from this Taillefer.
I certainly agree that the claimed line of descent mentioned in the linage of
Pringle Taylor alone is not sufficent evidence of such a connection on its own.
If I can find this poem called "Taillerfer" and it turns out to have been
written by a Taylor descendant or by somebody after the existence of the
Pringle Taylor Coat of Arms grant (and claimed lineage back to Taillefer), I
think that the poem can be safely disregarded as total speculation and based
upon the falacy of the Pringle Taylor claim. If on the other hand, the poem
has its origin prior Pringle Taylor's grant of arms, particularly if the poet
was not a Taylor descendant, it seems to me that the the story in the poem
about the motto gives some credibility to a connection with the Taylor family.
What do you all think?
D. Spencer Hines
Do you have any convincing evidence that he actually existed and "led
the charge of the Normans at the Battle of Hastings" on 14 October 1066?
I've not seen any.
If you know of some convincing proof, please bring it forward.
Merry Christmas,
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
"BobBecAlln" <bobbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991225233232...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
BobBecAlln
fictional character comes from a variety of early historical accounts of the
Battle of Hastings. The one which I have actually read is "Roman de Rou", by
Robert Wace, a Norman poet, who wrote his book in about 1160 according to
experts. The source for his work (according to his own words) was his father.
This book is not available on line as far as I can determine. It is available
by interlibrary loan in French or English. The English version was tanslated
by Edgar Taylor, Esq., and printed in London by William Pickering in 1837.
There are several more recent reprints. Quoting from Chapter XX of the
translated poem:
"Then Taillefer who sang right well, rode mounted on a swift horse before the
duke, singing of Karlemaine, and of Rollant, of Oliver and the vassals who died
in Renchevals. And when they drew nigh to the English, 'A boon, sire!' cried
Taillefer; 'have long served you and you owe me for all such service. To-day,
so please you. you shall repay it. I ask as my guerdon, and beseech you for it
earnestly, that you will allow me to strike the first blow in the battle!'
And the duke answered, "I grant it." Then Taillefer put his horse to a gallop,
charging before all the rest, and struck an Englishman dead, driving his lance
below the breast into his body, and stretching him upon the ground. Then he
drew his sword, and struck another, crying out 'Come on! come on! What do ye,
sirs? lay on! lay on!' At the second blow he struck, the English pushed
forward and surrounded him. Forthwith arose the noise and cry of war, and on
either side the people put themselves in motion. The Normans moved on to the
assault, and the English defended themselves well...."
Also, the "Sussex Archaeological Collections, Vol. VI, published by the Sussex
Archaeological Society (1853), in an article entitled "On The Battle of
Hastings", by Mark Antony Lower (1852) pages 23-25, gives credibility to
Taillefer as follows:
"...But first, there comes upon the stage of this eventful drama a character to
whom the old historians, Guy, Benoit, Gaimar and Wace allude with peculiar
gusto. Among the Norman knights was one who, from his prowess and agility, had
acquired according to the usage of the times, to sobriquet of Taillefer or
'cut-iron.' He is usually designated a jonglere or a minstrel but whatever his
accomplishments might have led others to call him, (25) it is evident from what
follows, that he was also a personage of equestrain rank, a noble or a knight.
He asked and obtained the duke's permission to strike the first blow, but
previously, he commenced in lofty strain the composition known as Cantilena
Rolandi, and which Wace describes as the song of 'Karlemaine, and of Rollant,
of Oliver, and the vassals who died in Renchevals.' He then begain a series
of exploits, which Gaimar graphically enumerates:--
'forth from the French, with gallant haste,
The juggler Taillefer then pressed,
Armed and on a fiery horse,
And placed him 'fore the nOrman force;
Where wonders in the English sight
He played with all a master's sleight;
First, to incite them to advance,
High in the air he hurled his lance,
And caught it by the point -- and then
As nimbly threw it up again.
This daring feat he thrice did shew,
Then launched his weapon 'midst the foe,
A luckless wight of whom it struck,
So skilfully his aim he took;
Then drawing forth the sword he wore,
Thrice drew and caught it as before,
With an address so magical,
It seemed enchantment to them all,
These tricks performed, he urged his steed,
And galloping with utmost speed,
Forced through the foe an opening wide,
And dealth his blows on every side.'
Thus begain the battle of Hastings ....
__________________________________
25. The Carmen styles him 'Incisor ferri," 'mimus,' 'histrio.' "
The appendix of a book entitled "Invasion 1066", by Rupert Furneaux ( ? )
describes the dates of the sources used in his book. The relevant 12th century
sources described above are:
" 'Roman de Rou et des Ducs de Normandie' (The Romance of Rollo and the dukes
of Normandy). By Robert Wace, written about 1160."
"De bello Hastingensis Carmen (The song about the Battle of Hastings)
attributed to Buy, Bishop of Amiens and written before 1070" (this could be a
type which meant 1170)
"Chronique des Ducs de Normandie (Chronicle of the dukes of Normandy) by Benoit
de St. More, written about 1190."
Some think that Taillefer was a nickname. I do not see how that can be proven
or disproven. I have not studied the Norman system of naming children. Did
families carry the same last name in the 11th century? If a person was given a
nickname such as Taillefer that he valued, might his children's last name turn
out to be Taillefer?
At this point, I am more interested in finding the poem called "Taillerfer"
because of its reference to the motto "consequitur quod cunque petit" than for
its reference to Taillefer/Tailerfer. Sure, it would be nice if my Taylor
connected to Taillefer. Regardless of the circumstantial evidence which might
suggest this connection, there is a lot of hard work to prove the more
immediate ancestors of my James Taylor who died in 1698. Even if he connects
to Taillefer, there is no evidence of how this connection goes, whether from
Tailefer forward or from my James Taylor back.
BobBecAlln
appearing on my screen. I will try it again an abbreviate it a bit.
I think that Taillefer is more than a fictional charactor. His name may be a
nickname as some think. Whether or not it is a nickname will probably never be
proven. Even if it is a nickname, it does not mean that his descendants did
not carry that nickname. There are proven individuals in Normandy and England
whose name was Taillefer/Taylefer in the 1200s and before. As far as sources
for the existence of Taillefer:
Four respected sources of history of the Battle of Hastings are:
1. "Roman de Rou et des Ducs de Normandie" (The Romance of Rollo and of the
dukes of Normandy) by Robert Wace, written about 1160.
2. " De Bello Hastingensis Carmen" (The Song about the Battle of Hastings)
attributed to Guy, Bishop of Amiens and written before 1070.
3. "Chronique des Ducs de Normandie" (Chronicle of the dukes of Normandy), by
Benoit de St. More, written about 1190.
[Source: "Invasion 1066", by Rupert Furneaux ( ? ), appendix C, page 201]
4. "Gaimar's History of the English", a very long Norman-French poem, which
appears to have been written about the middle of the twelfth century."
[Source: "Sussex Archaeological Collections Relating to the History and
Antiquities of the County", published by The Sussex Archaeological Society,
Vol. VI (1853) in a article entitled "On the Battle of Hastings", by Mark
Antony Lower (1852)]
The Lower article says: "But first, there comes upon the stage of this
eventful drama, a character to whom the old historians, Guy, Benoit, Gaimar,
and Wace, allude with peculiar gusto. Among the Norman knights was one who,
from his prowess and agility, had acquired according to the usage of the times,
the sobriquet of Taillefer or "cut-iron" He is usually designated a jonglere
or a minstrel but whatever his accomplishments might have led others to call
him, (25) it is evident from what follows, that he was also a personage of
equestrian rank, a noble or a knight. He asked and obtained the duke's
permission to strike the first blow, (26) but previously, he commenced in lofty
strain the composition known as Cantilena Rolandi, and which Wace describes as
the song of 'Karlemaine and of Rollant, of Oliver, and the vassals who died in
Renchevals."
_________________________________
25. The Carmen styles him 'incisor ferri', 'minus, 'histrio'.
26. Rom. de Rou, p. 190"
__________________________________
Note: a "sobriquet" is defined as an "assumed name" or "nickname".
The Lower article also quotes from the Gaimar poem:
"Forth from the French, with gallant haste,
The juggler Taillefer then pressed,..."
It goes on the describe Taillefer's exploits.
"Roman de Rou", by Wace, (translated in by Edgar Taylor, published by William
Pickering of London in 1827), Chapter XX, describes the exploits of Taillefer.
It begins: "Then Taillefer (1) who sang right well, rode mounted on a swift
house the duke, signing of Karlemaine, and of Rollant, of Oliver and the
vassals who died in Renchevals....
__________________________________
(1) Bishop Guy, in his "Carmen de bello Hastingensi, thus described Taillefer,
'Incisor ferri mimus cognomine dictus.' He is there also called 'histrio,' but
his singing is not mentioned...."
__________________________________
My main concern is to locate the poem called "Taillerfer" which allegedly has a
line where William the Conqueror, upon learning of Taillefer's/Taillerfer's
death granted his heirs land the the motto "consequitur quod cunque petit"
which happens to be the motto of my James Taylor and other Taylors of arms in
the English heraldry records. I reserve my conclusion as to the relationship,
if any, between Taillefer's heirs possibly being granted the motto and the
Taylors later being found to have assumed the motto until I gather more
evidence.
BobBecAlln
White House", Mary Taylor Brewer (1985) described as a poem entitled
"Taillerfer" may have been the poem by Gaimar which I quoted in the previous
article. A footnote about this poem in the Lower article says that "Gainer's
History of the England is a very long Norman-French poem, which appears to have
been written about the middle of the twelfth century. It has recently been
editied by Thomas Wright, Esq.". The word "recently" in this footnote means
recently to 1852. Is anybody familiar with this poem and where a copy may be
located for interlibrary loan?
LEA...@aol.com
<< My main concern is to locate the poem called "Taillerfer" which allegedly
has a
line where William the Conqueror, upon learning of Taillefer's/Taillerfer's
death granted his heirs land the the motto "consequitur quod cunque petit"
which happens to be the motto of my James Taylor and other Taylors of arms in
the English heraldry records. I reserve my conclusion as to the
relationship,
if any, between Taillefer's heirs possibly being granted the motto and the
Taylors later being found to have assumed the motto until I gather more
evidence.
>>
Not to complicate this further, but is this fictional character in someway
supposed to be connected to the Taillefer family? Also if the Taylors
believed themselves descendants of this Taillefer or adopted the motto of
this minstrel how did the name evolve?
MichaelAnne Guido
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/26/1999 2:24:37 PM, LEA...@aol.com writes:
<< Not to complicate this further, but is this fictional character in someway
supposed to be connected to the Taillefer family? Also if the Taylors
believed themselves descendants of this Taillefer or adopted the motto of
this minstrel how did the name evolve? >>
The French Tallefer/Tallifer became Talliaferro and was sometimes Anglicized
to Toliver. Some families claim that some of the Taylor's are a corruption of
this as well. Since there are so many taylors in the ancient world, this is
practically impossible to trace.
I would not call Pons Tallifer fictional. Legendary, perhaps, as there were
many close to the event stories about the minstrel/juggler casting the first
blow. These have already been posted.
- Ken