OT: Coote and Eyre ancestors of Gen. Colin Powell

[Bronwen Edwards]

I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:

in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

[Craig Kilby via]

Who knows where Colin Powell got his information. It could be family tradition or something that was hatched by a back-bench researcher that wanted to make his story sound dramatic. It has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, which is an ongoing debate despite what you may have read.

Craig Kilby
Kilby Research Services
www.craigkilby.com







> On Jul 28, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Bronwen Edwards via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
>
> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemi!

> ngs is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen
>

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Bronwen Edwards]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:23:38 PM UTC-7, Craig Kilby via wrote:
> Who knows where Colin Powell got his information. It could be family tradition or something that was hatched by a back-bench researcher that wanted to make his story sound dramatic. It has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, which is an ongoing debate despite what you may have read.
>
> Craig Kilby
> Kilby Research Services
> www.craigkilby.com
>

> I was not basing my question on Colin Powell's opinion alone, but on the fact that some very respectable people (WARGS) have taken the question seriously enough to research it. I would assume that Gen. Powell did grow up with stories about this descent. Also I was not suggesting that the Powell case was directly connected to the Jefferson-Hemings case. I was making the point that such a liaison between slave and slave owner was well known to be commonplace even among the most revered people. If I remember correctly, the Jefferson-Hemings question has been settled to the extent that it was either Thomas or his brother who was the father of Hemings' children - either way the relationship was that of slave and slaveowner (in the case of Jefferson's brother, perhaps slave-borrower). Bronwen

[amada...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 11:48:11 PM UTC+1, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

I live in the town for which General Eyre Coote was once a Member of Parliament. Very interested in what you said. In which of Powell's books will I find mention of the claim he made? If possible, would appreciate an exact reference. Thank You. John Dunne

[wjhonson]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:48:11 PM UTC-7, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

http://www.eogn.com/archives/news0420.htm#ColinPowellsScottishAncestry

[Richard Smith]

On 28 July 2015 at 23:48, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt.

As this old thread has just come up again, perhaps I could ask a
question about the Eyre family of Eyrecourt.

If the Wiltshire visitations are to believed, and I think in this
instance they probably are, Thomas Eyre (d 1628), Mayor of Salisbury
(1587) and Member of Parliament for Salisbury (1597), was a member of
this family. He married an Elizabeth Rogers (c1549-1612), the daughter
of Robert Rogers of Poole (d c1555) and his wife Elizabeth, daughter of
William Webbe, Mayor of Salisbury. I've posted about this family on
this newsgroup before. There is a large memorial tablet to Thomas and
Elizabeth Eyre in St Thomas, Salisbury. Have you seen this, or do you
have a good quality photo of it? I'm wondering whether it has any
heraldic devices that might help establish who Elizabeth's father Robert
Rogers was.

Richard

[wjhonson]

This ?

https://books.google.com/books?id=xy06AQAAMAAJ&dq=eyre%20rogers%20of%20poole%20wiltshire&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=eyre%20rogers%20of%20poole%20wiltshire&f=false

Elizabeth dau of ... Rogers of Poole

No first name for her father

Other sources like Burke's call him John Rogers

[Richard Smith]

On 03/08/17 23:04, wjhonson wrote:

> https://books.google.com/books?id=xy06AQAAMAAJ&dq=eyre%20rogers%20of%20poole%20wiltshire&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=eyre%20rogers%20of%20poole%20wiltshire&f=false

Google Books doesn't really work in Britain, so I don't know for certain
what that link points to. But if it's p 56 of the 1882 printing of The
Visitation of Wiltshire, 1623 [1], it's the right person.

> Elizabeth dau of ... Rogers of Poole
>
> No first name for her father
>
> Other sources like Burke's call him John Rogers

The first edition of Burke's Landed Gentry (1847) [2, p 387], is the
earliest source I've been able to locate which makes Elizabeth the son
of a John, Esq. of Poole. I'm aware of no contemporary sources saying
this; I can't even find any evidence of a John Rogers, Esq. in Poole in
the first half of the 16th century. On the other hand, I can find a lot
of evidence for Elizabeth being the son of the Robert Rogers of Poole
who died c1555.

The memorial in St Thomas, Salisbury says that Thomas Eyre's wife was
named Elizabeth and died 24 Dec 1612, aged 63 [3, p 31]. There seems no
reason to disbelieve this, which puts Elizabeth's birth in 1549.

We know that Elizabeth was the sister of another Robert Rogers, a
leather seller from London who founded almshouses in Cripplegate. In
his will [4], dated 11 Sept 1601, he leaves £1000 to "my lovinge Sister
mistres Elizabethe Ayer the wief of Thomas Ayer" whom he later refers to
as "my brother Eyre of Sarum". He also leaves "to the towne of Poole in
Dorset Shire where I was borne five hundred markes to build an
Almeshouse", and "to Fiftie and three poore men that shall goe to the
Church with the corps, soe many gownes, for that I am of that age",
meaning he was born in 1547-8 in Poole. This tells us that Thomas
Eyre's wife was indeed from the Poole family, and is compatible with her
being born in 1549.

The Poole parish register for the years 1546-51 is very badly decayed
with only scraps surviving from some pages, but one of these scraps says
"Elsabeth Rogers dawghter of Robert Rogers was [----] the xvj day of
novembr godfather morgan Rede [----] & margery [Fr]ix[ben]" [5]. The
year is unreadable, but it must be within a few years of 1549.

I don't know for sure that this register entry is the right one, but I
suspect it is. However there is little doubt that Elizabeth and Robert
are the children named in the 1555 will of Robert Rogers of Poole [6].
He mentions sons John, Robert and William, daughters Dorothy, Amy,
Elizabeth and Jone, and his wife Elizabeth.

Robert's wife Elizabeth was the daughter of William Webbe of Salisbury
who left a will dated 22 Jan 1553 (OS) [7], and it mentions the Robert
Rogers' family. "Also I give to young Robert Rogers sonne to Robert
Rogers and Elizabeth my daughter fourtie pounds. And to Amye, Elizabeth
and Joan his other daughters and to the childe that his wiffe nowe goeth
withe to every of theym fourtie [marks?]." This William Webbe
represented Salisbury in Parliament in 1529 and 1536, and was mayor in
1533-4 and 1553-4 [8].

Robert Roger's 1555 will says his children were all under age and were
assigned to various relatives to be brought up; in particular, "William
Webbe of Salisberye my brotherinlawe have the kepinge of Elizabethe and
Jone my daughters" [6]. Because we know Elizabeth's father was also a
William Webbe, we know that the brother-in-law must be Robert's wife's
brother, rather than Robert's sister's husband.

Robert's brother-in-law William Webb is the son of the man who died in
1554; he represented Salisbury in parliament in 1559, and served as
mayor in 1561-2 [9], making it easy to see how a future marriage to
another influential Salisbury man may have happened. This William Webb
left a will in 1585 in which he left "my sister Estcourte, my sister
White and my syster Barrowe to either of them fower Angelles for a token
of remembrance", and makes his "brotheres Gyles Estcourte and Anthony
Barrowe" overseers of the will [10]. (An angel was a gold coin worth
10/- at the time.)

This "sister Estcourte" is Robert Rogers' widow Elizabeth who had
remarried, to Giles Estcourt, yet another man who represented Salisbury
in parliament, five times between 1563 and 1586 [11]. This is confirmed
in Elizabeth's will in which she asks to be buried in St Edmund's,
Salisbury "nere unto my late husbande Mr Gyles Estcourte deceased" and
bequeaths "unto my daughter Elizabeth Eyer the wyfe of Mr Thomas Eyer of
the Cittie of new Sarum Twentie shillinges to make her a Ringe" [12].


This is all a bit convoluted, but to summarise we know:

* Robert Rogers of London and Elizabeth Eyres were siblings, from a
Poole family.

* Robert and Elizabeth Rogers of Poole had children of suitable names,
ages and social statuses to be Robert Rogers of London and Elizabeth Eyres.

* Robert Rogers of Poole's wife Elizabeth's father and brother were
named William Webbe.

* Robert Rogers of Poole's daughter Elizabeth was brought up in
Salisbury, where Elizabeth Eyres later lived.

* Elizabeth Eyres' was a daughter of Elizabeth Estcourt, sometime
husband of Giles Estcourt, by an earlier marriage.

* The younger William Webbe had a sister called Estcourt married to a
Giles Estcourt.


I think that's pretty cast iron evidence that Elizabeth Eyres is the
daughter of Robert Rogers of Poole, even if another John Rogers of a
suitable social status is subsequently found to have lived in Poole in
the mid 16th century.

I can't explain the origin of the suggestion that Elizabeth Eyres'
father was named John Rogers, but as the suggestion only seems to have
surfaced 300 years after Elizabeth's birth, I'm not overly worried. I
suspect that Elizabeth's grandfather may have been Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston, and possibly this has contributed to the confusion.
Unfortunately I cannot prove this, hence my question about the heraldry
on Elizabeth's memorial. The Bryanston family had quite distinctive
arms, quite unlike those of the other Rogers families in the area.


SOURCES

[1] Marshall, George W, ed. /The Visitation of Wiltshire, 1623/.
George Bell & Sons, London: 1882.

[2] Burke, John and Burke, John Bernard. /Genealogical and Heraldic
History of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland/, vol 1.
Henry Colburn, London: 1847.

[3] Hartigan, A S. "Eyre of Wilts" in /Wiltshire Notes and Queries/, vol
5 (1905-7), pp 27-31.

[4] The National Archives. "Will of Robert Rogers, Leather Seller of
London." 1601. [PROB 11/99/141]. Records of the Prerogative Court
of Canterbury.

[5] Dorset History Centre. Poole parish registers, christenings
1550-1558. [PE-PL/RE/1/1A]

[6] The National Archives. "Will of Roberte Rogers of Poole, Dorset."
1555. [PROB 11/37/513] Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.

[7] The National Archives. "Will of William Webbe of Salisbury,
Wiltshire." 1553. [PROB 11/36/352] Records of the Prerogative Court of
Canterbury.

[8] Baker, T. F. T. "WEBBE, William II (by 1499-1554), of Salisbury,
Wilts." in /The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1509-1558/,
ed. S.T. Bindoff. Boydell and Brewer, London: 1982

[9] Fuidge, N. M. "WEBBE, William (d.1585), of Salisbury, Wilts.; later
of Motcombe, Dorset." in /The History of Parliament: the House of
Commons 1558-1603/, ed. P.W. Hasler. Boydell and Brewer, London: 1981.

[10] The National Archives. "Will of William Webbe."
1585. [PROB 11/68/446] Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.

[11] M. N. "ESTCOURT, Giles (d.1587), of Salisbury, Wilts." in /The
History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1558-1603/, ed. P.W. Hasler.
Boydell and Brewer, London: 1981.

[12] The National Archives. "Will of Elizabeth Estcourte, Widow of
Salisbury, Wiltshire." 1602. [PROB 11/99/378] Records of the
Prerogative Court of Canterbury.


Richard

[wjhonson]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:48:11 PM UTC-7, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

On your footnote item 5, how were you actually able to view this item?

[wjhonson]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:48:11 PM UTC-7, Bronwen Edwards wrote:

> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

Two things.
Could you specify the date of Elizabeth (Webbe) 1Rogers 2Estcourt's Will and probate, and does she mention Honor (Estcourt) Mompesson ?

[Richard Smith]

The text you've quoted is Bronwen's, but I assume you're referring to
this source note of mine:

[5] Dorset History Centre. Poole parish registers, christenings
1550-1558. [PE-PL/RE/1/1A]

I'm not at home at the moment so can't consult the relevant notebook to
answer definitively, but I'm pretty certain I consulted some form of
reproduction at the archive: microfiche, I think. I had hoped a look at
the original register might reveal a year, but it was deemed to fragile
to produce. I've since looked at the images on Ancestry.com which are
clearer, and it's now apparent the year is on a part of the page that is
entirely missing.

Richard

[Richard Smith]

On 04/08/17 18:59, wjhonson wrote:

> Could you specify the date of Elizabeth (Webbe) 1Rogers 2Estcourt's
> Will and probate, and does she mention Honor (Estcourt) Mompesson ?

The will was dated 16 March 1601 (presumably OS) and was proved 15 May
1602. She mentions "my daughter Honor Harding the wife of Mr John
Hardinge" whom she gives £10 and a silver bowl, and also "my cosen Gyles
Mompesson sonne of my saide daughter Honor" who gets six couples of ewes
and lambs. I've not researched this bit of the family, but presumably
Honor married first a Mompesson who had died by 1601 and secondly John
Harding, though this is not stated explicitly. I assume Honor is a
daughter of Elizabeth's second marriage to Giles Estcourt as no daughter
of that name is mentioned in Robert Rogers' will (nor in the will of
William Webbe, Elizabeth Estcourt's father). The will also mentions "my
three cosens Edward Harding, Thomas Hardinge and Richard Harding the
sonnes of Mr John Hardinge" who got four sheep apiece. Presumably these
were Honor's sons, though they could conceivably be children of John by
an earlier wife.

Is this a family you're researching?

Richard

[wjhonson]

In my files notes on Honor Estcourt I have

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Wiltshire/visitations/p102.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=phRbAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA590&dq=giles+mompesson+%22St+John%22#PPA588,M1
DNB, "Mompesson, Sir Giles (1584-1651 ?)"

For her first husband Thomas /Mompesson/ of Bathampton, co Wilt
heir of his father John /Mompesson/ of New Sarum; Gent by Agnes /Carrant/

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Wiltshire/visitations/p102.html

http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/33/mode/1up

http://books.google.com/books?id=phRbAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA590&dq=giles+mompesson+%22St+John%22#PPA588,M1
DNB, "Mompesson, Sir Giles (1584-1651 ?)"


For their children I have
Giles /Mompesson/ , Mp Great Bedwyn 1614; Knt 1616; elder son
Thomas /Mompesson/ of Gombledon in Idmaston; esq; second son
John /Mompesson/ of Codford St Mary (as rector); third son

[Kay Allen]

Sorry, being homeless, I have to use the library for internet and work back for my messages, so did  not see thisprevious to my first post.
You postulate Elizabeth's parentage, but I do not think it is cast iron. Unfortunately all my Eyre material is in storage and unavailable to
me. If I can gain access, I will get back to you and the list. The Bryanstone Rogers had 12 sons to have descent from, so is a possibility.Robert the Adventurer, her brother held land in Hampshire which might be worthwhile tracing its holding history.

Kay Allen

[Kay Allen]

Has anyone done any research to connect this Robert Rogers family with the family of RobertRoger of the alms houses in Poole, Dorset? This family is ancestral to Catherine Eyre, wife ofRev. Charles Chauncy

Kay Allen

From: Richard Smith <ric...@ex-parrot.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Coote and Eyre ancestors of Gen. Colin Powell

[bpc...@gmail.com]

Hi
I'm a descendent of Gen Sir Eyre Coote.
Various paintings of him and family hang at Sandhurst Museum and there is an impressive marble bust at the national army museum in London. My brother and I jointly own his sword, which is also displayed at Sandhurst.
My father has researched the family history for many years and to my knowledge does believe in the Colink connection. There is no concrete proof though as far as I know to date.
Ben Kaye, Dorset uk

[Richard Smith]

On 04/08/17 21:46, Kay Allen wrote:

> You postulate Elizabeth's parentage, but I do not think it is cast iron.

Really? Which part of my reasoning do you disagree with. It seems
pretty irrefutable to me. Specifically:

1. Robert Rogers of Cripplegate was the brother of Elizabeth Eyre.
(Source: Robert Rogers of Cripplegate's will.)

2. Elizabeth Eyre was the daughter of Elizabeth Estcourt.
(Source: Elizabeth Estcourt's will.)

3. Elizabeth Estcourt was the widow of Giles Estcourt.
(Source: Elizabeth Estcourt's will; Giles Estcourt's will.)

4. Giles Estcourt was the brother-in-law of William Webbe III.
(Source: William Webbe III's will.)

5. William Webbe III was the brother of Elizabeth Rogers of Poole.
(Source: Robert Rogers of Poole's will; William Webbe II's will.)

6. Elizabeth Rogers of Poole was the wife of Robert Rogers of Poole.
(Source: Robert Rogers of Poole's will; William Webbe II's will.)

7. Robert Rogers of Poole did have children named Robert and Elizabeth.
(Source: Robert Rogers of Poole's will; William Webbe II's will.)

If you think there's room for doubt as to Elizabeth's parentage, you
must either disagree with one of the steps above, or you must think
there's an alternative explanation for them that doesn't conclude that
Robert Rogers of Poole is Elizabeth Eyre's father.

Either way, I'd like to know which. If you think I've misinterpreted
one of the steps above, that's definitely something I'd want to know.
Likewise if you think there's a plausible alternative explanation,
because so far as I can see, the most plausible alternative explanation
is that William Webbe II had two daughters called Elizabeth, both of
whom married Rogers men, and one of them (but not always the same one)
was excluded from all the Webbe family wills. That seems implausible to
the point of practical impossibility to me.

> The Bryanstone Rogers had 12 sons to have descent from, so is a
> possibility.

I'm not certain which person you mean by "the Bryanstone Rogers".
However I'm guessing you mean the second Sir John Rogers of Bryanston,
the grandson of Sir Henry Rogers of Bryanston, however this John Rogers
had sixteen sons, not just twelve. This information comes from his tomb
in the old church at Blandford, which was destroyed, presumably in the
18th century, but was recorded in Richard Symonds' diary:

Here lyeth buried Sir John Rogers of Braynston, Knight, Steward of
this towne of Blandford, who married Katrine, the daughter of Sir
Richard Weston, Knight, and had by her sixteen sons and four
daughters, which Sir John Rogers died the 22nd day of July at Beket
in Berkshire, at the howse of my lady Essex, and from thence brought
to this towne of Blandford, and buried under this Tomb, 16 of Aug,
1565.

Chronologically it is possible for Elizabeth Eyres and Robert Rogers of
Cripplegate to be children of this Sir John. We believe Elizabeth was
born in about 1549 and Robert in about 1548. Sir John's eldest
surviving son was born in about 1527, and with twenty children, almost
certainly Elizabeth and Robert are the right age to be amongst the
youngest of his children. But that's where the plausibility stops.

I don't know the name of all of Sir John Rogers' children. I am aware
of no will, and from the fact that he died at Lady Essex's house makes
me think he probably died unexpectedly. (Elizabeth Essex was his third
cousin, and heiress to another branch of the Rogers family in
Berkshire.) However John's widow Katherine did leave a will dated 25
Aug 1580 which mentions quite a few children. My guess is that they are
all the surviving children. I can't see a Robert or an Elizabeth mentioned.

Even if we suppose they were omitted from the will because they were
otherwise provided for, how do we explain the fact that we know
Elizabeth Eyres' mother was Elizabeth Estcourt. Sir John Rogers can't
have married them both as he was married to Katherine by about 1527 and
Katherine outlived him.

Finally, we know that Robert Rogers of Cripplegate was born in Poole,
and the Wiltshire Visitation tells us that Elizabeth Eyres was daughter
of a Rogers from Poole too. I know of no connection between Sir John
Rogers and Poole. So far as I can see, Bryanston was his chief
residence, and even if Robert happened to be born at Poole for some
reason, it's unlikely that Elizabeth would have been described as from a
Poole family rather than from the Bryanston family.

So I'm afraid I see absolutely no possibility that Elizabeth Eyres and
Robert Rogers of Cripplegate were children of Sir John Rogers of Bryanston.

Richard

[wjhonson]

How are you arriving at these rather exact birth years you are giving to Elizabeth and Robert ?

[Richard Smith]

On 07/08/17 20:47, wjhonson wrote:
> How are you arriving at these rather exact birth years you are giving
> to Elizabeth and Robert ?

As I said in my post of 4 Aug, the memorial in St Thomas, Salisbury says
that Elizabeth died 24 Dec 1612, aged 63, and Robert said he was 53 when
in his will dated 11 Sept 1601. If correct these ages put Elizabeth's
birth in 1648-9, and Robert's in 1647-8. There could be an error in one
or both, but they're broadly consistent with each other and with the
other details we know of their lives.

Richard

[Kay Allen]

As I mentioned earlier, I do not have access to my materials to properly answer yourquestions. There is something niggling my memory, but without my notes, I can notbe specific. Sorry to upset you.

Kay Allen

From: Richard Smith <ric...@ex-parrot.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Coote and Eyre ancestors of Gen. Colin Powell

[Richard Smith]

On 04/08/17 21:46, Kay Allen wrote:

> Robert the Adventurer, her brother held land in Hampshire which
> might be worthwhile tracing its holding history.

What is your evidence for that? I've re-read his will pretty carefully
and I can see very little mention of any land holdings, and unless I've
misread a name, the only places mentioned outside the immediate environs
of the City of London are Poole in Dorset and Sarum (i.e. Salisbury) in
Wiltshire: nothing in Hampshire that I can see.

Suppose we do find land in Hampshire held by Robert "the Adventurer"
that was formerly held by the Rogers family of Bryanston: this wouldn't
prove that Robert "the Adventurer" was the son of Sir John Rogers of
Bryanston.

If, as I believe to be the case, Robert "the Adventurer" was the son of
Robert of Poole, then Robert of Poole's will tells us that his son
Robert was left to "the custodie of my brother John Rogers". As I'll
discuss later in this post, it's possible that this brother is Sir John
Rogers II of Bryanston, and if it turns out that Robert "the Adventurer"
ended up holding Rogers family land in Hampshire, this could well have
been from his uncle and guardian, rather than indicating his father was
Sir John Rogers.

But at the moment I see no evidence that any land did pass from the
Bryanston family to Robert "the Adventurer". On the other hand, land
did pass from the Rogers family of Bryanston to the Webbe family. We
know this from the 1553/54 will of William Webbe II, who I'm certain is
the maternal grandfather of Robert Rogers "the Adventurer":

"I give to the saide William [his son, William Webbe III] all that my
mannor of Stockbridge, Houghton, Broughton and Somborne withe all and
singuler the landes, tenementes, rentes, revercons and pr'mices
thereunto belonging or in any wise apperteyning whatsoever they be. And
more one yard lande lyinging Porton to the yerely value of twentie fowre
poundes three shillinges and foure pence accompting t'hole which landes
was purchased of Sr John Rogers knight as by the dedes of the same may
appeare."

The only plausible Sir John Rogers this could refer to are Sir John I
and Sir John II of Bryanston, who were father and son. John I died in
about 1535, the year he made his will, and his son was granted livery to
his father's estate the following year [L&P Hen VIII, vol 10, no 392,
item 28] implying that John I was by then dead, though for some reason
probate seems not to have been granted until 1546. The /Victoria County
History/ for Hampshire [vol 4, sub Dibden and Kings Sombourne] says the
purchase was in 1544 and therefore from John II. It cites "Com. Pleas
D. Enr. Trin. 17 Eliz. m. 36; Feet of F. Hants, Hil. 36 Eliz." which I
think must mean CP40/1326 and CP25/2/211/36ELIZIHIL in the National
Archives. I've not consulted either, and I don't think either are
currently online (CP40/1326 is a gap in AALT's coverage); but I see no
reason to doubt this date. The fact that the VCH refers to it as a sale
and makes no mention of a marriage or other family relationship suggests
that neither source mentions such a connection.

It seems quite possible that this transaction in 1544 was part of an
arrangement between the Rogers family of Bryanston and Webbe family for
the marriage of Robert Rogers to Elizabeth Webbe. It's a plausible date
of the marriage, though I would have guessed a few years earlier. I
think Robert Rogers must have from the gentry given his good marriage,
the fact that he was Mayor of Poole in 1550 (according to Hutchins'
Dorset, 3rd ed, vol 1, p 34), and that he left legacies well in excess
of £1000 in his will. The nearest plausible family of Rogers gentry
were the Rogers family of Bryanston, and chronologically Robert would
probably be the same generation as Sir John Rogers II. If so, John II,
who by 1544 was head of the family, may well have made provision for his
marriage.

But this is just speculation on my part. The 1544 sale may have been
between unrelated parties, and Rogers is a common enough surname that
it's quite feasible that William Webbe purchased property from one
Rogers man, and at a similar time his daughter married an unrelated
Rogers man. There was certainly a prominent but seemingly unrelated
Rogers family in Bradford-on-Avon at the time, and perhaps Robert was a
scion of that family, even though it's 50 miles away. John II seems to
have been perennially short of money which would provide sufficient
motive for selling part of his estate to Webbe.

I'm told that the 1952 edition of Burkes Landed Gentry [sub Webb of
Odstock] refers to Robert Rogers of Poole as "Robert, son of Sir John
Rogers, Kt., Lord of the Manors of Stockbridge and Houghton, Hants."
These were two of the manors transferred by Sir John Rogers II to
William Webbe in 1544, but were not the most important of John's manors
and its surprising to see him described in this way unless BLG's source
is somehow connected to the 1544 sale. But BLG isn't particularly
reliable and its source may well be just Webbe's will coupled with an
argument similar to the one I give above and a good dose of wishful
thinking.

Although BLG doesn't state which Sir John Rogers it believes is Robert's
father, it must be John I, insofar as the BLG editor understood the
Rogers family. John II's eldest son and heir Richard seems to have been
born in about 1527 based on him being 38 and upwards for his father's
IPM in 1566; his HoP article accepts that as his approximate year of
birth. Robert can't have married much later than 1544 because he had
had eight children by 1555 (I accidentally omitted Katherine from my
post on 4 Aug), so it's hard to believe he could have been younger than
Richard as he must have been were he John II's son. That means if he
was the son of either Sir John Rogers, he must have been a younger son
of John I.

This poses a problem as we have John I's will, dated 1535, and it makes
no mention of a son named Robert. He mentions only John, his eldest
son and heir, another son named James, and a daughter Jane Sowche
[Zouche] who was married to Richard Sowche. There's no mention of
another son. Of course it could be that provision had already been made
for Robert, and the will makes no small personal bequests where one
might still expect to find other sons listed; but if we believe Robert
only married in 1544, it would seem surprising that there was no
provision for him in the will.

None of the published visitations cover the Rogers family of Bryanston
in any detail for this period, but there is a pedigree drawn up in 1853
by George Harrison, the then Windsor Herald, printed in Misc. Gen. &
Her., vol 1 (1868), pp 258-65. It claims to be "faithfully extracted
from the Records of the College of Arms", though precisely which records
is unspecified. In addition to John, James and Jane, it lists several
more children for Sir John Rogers I, including William "2d son, s.p."
and "Margaret, married to Sir Thomas Essex, Knt".

Sir Thomas Essex's wife was named Margaret, and she was connected to the
Rogers family, but not as stated. The Visitation of Berkshire (as
printed) shows Sir Thomas Essex being married to "Margarett 2d da. to
Sr. Wm. Lord Sandes Lord Chamberlaine to Kg Henry 8". This is borne out
by Thomas and Margaret's tomb in Lambourn church, Berks, which has a
coat of arms with a cross ragulée; the Sandys arms were /argent, a cross
ragulée sable/. However in 1536, when John Rogers II gained livery of
his father's lands, Margaret was described as, "now wife of Thos. Essex
and late wife of Will. Rogers, elder brother of the said John [II]" [L&P
Hen VIII, vol 10, no 392, item 28].

This means there's at least two error in the Harrison pedigree: first
William was John II's older brother not younger, and secondly Margaret
was John I's daughter-in-law not daughter. This casts doubt on the
other details in the pedigree which includes two further children:
"Anthony Rogers, 4th son" and "Joan, marrd to Sir William Gifford, Knt,
of the County of Hants". I have found no other mention of Anthony, but
with no other information given, perhaps he pre-deceased his father,
childless and unmarried.

Sir William Gifford quite possibly did marry as Harrison says. The
Visitation of Hampshire (as printed) gives William two wives, one being
"Joane, d. of Sr John Rogers knt", and William's will (dated 1549)
refers to "Johane my wiffe". This is an important point: if we believe
Sir John Rogers I was Sir William Gifford's father-in-law, then his
daughter Joan was still living when John wrote his will in 1535, yet she
is not mentioned. If a known child is not mentioned in the will, it
makes it more likely that other children may be omitted too, increasing
the likelihood that Robert Rogers of Poole may be another child; but I'd
rather have more a more reliable source for Joan being the daughter of
Sir John Rogers before making that inference.

(I did consider the possibility that Jane, wife of Richard Zouche, might
be same person as Joan, wife of William Gifford, and that she married
first Zouche then Gifford, but it seems not. Richard Zouche later
became the 9th Baron Zouche, and according to CP [2nd ed., vol 12B, p
949], he died on 22 July 1552, which is consistent with the date of his
will, Jane had predeceased him and he had remarried. That means she
cannot be the wife of Sir William Gifford in 1549.)

So to summarise a fairly long post, there's circumstantial evidence that
Sir John Rogers I might be the father of Robert of Poole, and the
grandfather of Robert "the Adventurer". I've already discussed why I
think it's vanishingly unlikely that Sir John Rogers II is the father of
Robert "the Adventurer" and won't reiterate that.

Richard

[richardg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 6:48:11 PM UTC-4, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
> I have been trying, for awhile, to explore the claim of Gen. Colin Powell (from his autobiography) that he descends from Sally, described as a slave girl, and Gen. Sir Eyre Coote, Governor of Jamaica, in the early 19th c. WARGs and others have commented on this possibility but apparently have not found the exact line leading to Sally and Coote. I have been looking through any number of places for some lead, including an index of the Coote papers housed at the University of Wisconsin, but have found no reference to a liaison with or offspring by Sally. Of course, this does not mean that such a relationship did not happen and that such a baby was not born; it likely means that Coote's family and biographers did not discuss it. He was stripped of his honors for inappropriate behavior with boys, but in his time and place it was not inappropriate to have a slave mistress (willing or by force). Note that this is also the time period for Thomas Jefferson's presidency and Sally Hemings is a well known name. So my question to this group:
>
> in the last few years, do you know of any further work on Powell's Jamaican roots? My own interest is that I descend from Evans of Bulgaden Hall and Eyre of Eyrecourt. I would be proud to have Colin Powell as a distant cousin. Thank you, Bronwen

should there be a gene test or a blood test of some sort amongst the families to prove these theories it would be big news around the world