Robert White of Messing, Essex, England

[howard...@juno.com]

I have recently reviewed the archives regarding the ancestry of
Robert White of Messing, Essex, England who married Bridgett Allgar and
was father-in-law of Joseph Loomis who emmigrated to America. Some
genealogies on-line show him descended from the Whites of Somerset and
Hampshire who have a connection to the Hungerford family. This has
been discussed previously in this forum. Some have said that the
Somerset/Hampshire Whites had no branch in Essex. Douglas Richardson
stated that they did indeed have a cadet branch in Essex, but that it
was not the family of the above Robert White.
I am wondering what the evidence is showing that Robert White's
family is not part of that cadet branch. Also, if he is not part of
that cadet branch, does anyone know what his ancestry is?
Howard Loomis

[mhol...@mac.com]

I also descend from this man. I think the point is that no one has
proven, but writing a scholarly article on who Robert White's parents
were. White is a common enough name that you need to really prove that
our Robert White who married Bridget Allgar on 24 June 1585 at
Shalford, Essex, England is the same man baptized to a certain set of
parents.

ROBERT WHITE of Messing, Essex, England who married Bridget Allgar and
whose descendants immigrate to Connecticut. His parentage remains
unknown. Best research remains: The Ancestry of Thomas Chalmers
Brainerd by Thomas C. Brainerd; edited by Donald Lines Jacobus
(Montreal, 1948); Mary Walton Ferris, Dawes-Gates Ancestral Lines 2
vols. (n.p., 1943 and 1931); Genealogical Notes on the Founding of New
England by Ernest Flagg (1926, reprint 1973) and "The Children of
Robert White of Messing . . " NEHGR 55 (1901):22-31.

[Sutliff]

I am not aware that the parents of Robert White have been discovered, so his
association to the cadet branches remains unknown. Leslie Mahler, a frequent
contributor to this list and NEHG Register, specializes in Essex families
and I feel certain he would published something if the associaition had been
found. As I descend from Robert's daughter Elizabeth, I too share an
interest in finding an answer.

Best regards,

Henry Sutliff

<howard...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1129153082.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

[lma...@att.net]

It does look like someone out there has assigned
parents to Robert White without any evidence,
and many have been led astray by it.

I have read through many collections / volumes of wills for
the county of Essex. Occasionally Ive made a few discoveries.

Something that most researchers seem to forget is that a lot of the
population died without leaving wills (some estimates are that 80%
died intestate).
And this Robert White does seem to have been of common stock,
so it wont be easy to solve.

Leslie

[howard...@juno.com]

John,
Robert White and Bridgett Allgar do seem to have a very large
American posterity. In Nexus, the newsletter of the NEHGS, vol 11
number 3, June 1985, an article appears regarding the purchase by NEHGS
of the Mormon Pioneer Geneological Library (colonial American portion)
which was compiled by Michel L. Call. In the article, they reference a
lecture to NEHGS in which Call stated that, according to his
projections, the largest family in America today is that of Robert
White and Bridget Allgar. Their family is followed by that of Edward
and Margaret Griswold, and Joseph Loomis and Mary White (Robert's
daughter).
I'm not sure how these projections were made, but they do seem to
have a large American posterity. Ascertaining Robert White's ancestry
would be of great interest to many people. I keep hoping that someone
with better research skills and resources than I will come up with some
answers.
Howard Loomis

[mhol...@mac.com]

It is curious. I descend from all three families and yet 5 of my 8
great-grandparents were born in Europe (and of non-New England
ancestry). What are the odds?

[mhol...@mac.com]

I've reviewed the NEHGR article from 1901 and it is curious. It
abstracts Robert White's Will of 1617. It abstracts the Allgars and
Whites and Porters from the parishes of Felsted, Shalford, and Messing.
However, according to the LDS Catalog, the Messing parish registers
start in the year 1558. However, the abstracts for Messing in the
article start only in 1619 for baptisms. So, does that mean there are
none from 1558-1619 or did the author (who was anonymous) miss some.
Good question.

It can be easily answered by getting the microfilm from LDS and
searching the registers. It seems the author searched all of Shalford
which also start in 1558 since Bridget Allgar's baptism of 1562 is
there (and her older sister Mary was baptized there in 1560).

Using the IGI is hopeless. By searching just in Essex for baptisms
from 1545 to 1565, you get 153 hits, most of which are submissions and
not worth the electrons that make them up. There is but one real entry
for a Robert White baptized at Bulmer on 10 June 1560 son of Henry and
Mary White.

So does that mean that Messing is not in the IGI? I can't tell. It
seems that work can be done on this family.

[lma...@att.net]

I wonder how the descendancy of Richard Warren of
the Mayflower compares.
Or the Howland brothers?

Leslie

[howard...@juno.com]

I'm intrigued by the Robert White you mention, baptized in Bulmer 10
June 1560, son of Henry and Mary White. The information I have from
the on-line databases for Robert White of Messing gives a baptism date
of 17 May 1560 in Shalford. These databases, of course, give no
documentation, but the dates are quite close. Does anyone have
information documenting Robert, son of Henry and Mary, as an adult?
Also, does anyone know who Henry and Mary White were? The same on-line
databases list a Henry White, son of Richard White and Helen or Ellen
Kirton. The birthdate given for Henry is 1561, so that would be a
problem if it is accurate. No wife or children for Henry are shown.
According to those same databases, Henry is the uncle of Robert of
Messing.
Howard Loomis

[Blair Southerden]

I have followed this thread and despite gathering information on the
Hampshire White's several years ago, I have not found evidence of links to
Essex. I can throw some light however, on Ellen Kirton, her ancestry and
possibly the links between Hampshire and Somerset, referred to in the 1999
correspondence in the archives. For the ancestry I am particularly reliant
upon the Kirton of Edmonton pedigree and researches carried out by my cousin
Jonathan Kirton..

1. Alan Kirton of Biddenham, co. Beds died c1362

2. Alan Kirton of Biddenham

3. John Kirton of co. Somerset b 1380; died c 1445

4. William Kirton b. c. 1450, d c 1500 of Farringdon Hampshire. Married
Margery, dau and heir of William Milborne and had two children:

5a John Kirton of Edmonton, co. Middx born 1474 at Christchurch Hampshire.
By 1500 was at Hillfarrance, co. Somerset and moved to London c 1525.
Married (1) Margaret White, dau of Robert White of South Wareborne, co.
Hampshire. (2)Ann, dau of Jesper Ruskan of Melton Mowbray & widow of John
Leek of Edmonton

5b Margaret Kirton first wife of William Buke, married secondly Sir Stephen
Jennings, alderman of London

6a Stephen Kirton, son of 5a, born at Hill Farrance co. Somerset c 1500.
Married Margaret Offley, dau of William Offley of Chester in Staffordshire
1521. Moved to London c 1527, alderman of the City of London, Merchant of
the Staple at Calais, purchased house at Christchurch 1545. Died 16 August
1554 (Will PCC ITTashe) Feb 1552, proved 29 August 1554.

6b William Kirton son of 5a, born Hill Farrance co. Somerset c 1501, died
at Farringdon co. Hampshire 1551; married Elizabeth, dau of John Leake of
Edmonton.

6c Agnes Kirton dau of 5a married (1) ..... Pheasant; (2) John Mountney

6d Elizabeth Kirton dau of 5a, later widow of .... Wyburne

7a Jane Kirton dau of 6a born 1530, married (1) Richard Wethill before 1
Feb 1551-2, Merchant Taylor and Merchant of the Staple; (2) before 28
October 1571 .... Dutton. ..(Pedigree of Offley, The Genealogist Vol XIX,
1903)

7b John Kirton son of 6a born 1534, dsp

7c Grizzel Kirton dau of 6a born 1536 wife of Sir Nicholas Woodroffe, Lord
Mayor of London (Visitation of London 1554)

7d Ellen dau of 6a born 1541 wife of Sir Richard White of South Warneborne,
co Hampshire d 22 August 1596

7e Anne dau of 6a wife of (1) Thomas White and (2) Thomas Dalton of
Sherborne [Note: I am uncertain of the refence to (1) and the Offley
Pedigree indicates her first marriage to Sir Thomas Withers Knt.

7f Thomas Kirton son of 6a, born c 1547 at Edmonton, Middx married 1559 to
Mary dau of John Sadler, alderman of London. Thomas was common serjeant for
London, subsequently of Thorpe Mandeville, co. Northamptonshire. Died 20
April 1601.

8a Mary Woodroffe, dau of 7c married Sir Thomas White, probable brother of
Sir Richard White and brother to Lady Wrotesley(see 7d) ..(Pedigree of
Offley, The Genealogist Vol XIX, 1903)

8b Sir David Woodroffe, Knt of Poyle co. Surrey married Catherine, daughter
of Sir John White, Knt..(Pedigree of Offley, The Genealogist Vol XIX, 1903)
A footnote indicates that "her will, as Katherine White, widow, late wife of
Sir John White Knt., late alderman of " dated 8 July 1574 pr PCC 24 Dec 1576
(41 Carew) mentions my dau Katherine White, my two sons Thomas and John, my
three other children John and William Allen etc. etc.

The Kirtons of Edmonton were a cadet branch of the Wiltshiure and Somerset
Kirtons who for for the best part of a century served the Seymour family of
Wolf Hall as stewards and business managers.

The Ellen referred to above at 7d is the only Ellen (or Helen) Kirton I have
traced from my files. None of this connects to Whites in Essex, although
the teh Harleian Society did publish a short pedigree of Essex Kirton's in
1869 vol 14.

In addition to the marriages between Kirton and White families the Victoria
County History for Surrey vol 2 records
P 599
Farnham - Church of St James in London Road
There existed a chantry in Farnham; no doubt the chapel at the northwest
angle of the church was the chantry chapel, of uncertain date or foundation.
Edward VI granted to John White of London, grocer, and Stephen Kyrton,
merchant of the Staple of Calais, 180 the late chantry called Farnham
Chantry and property in Farnham, Rundal, Wrecclesham and Compton (West
Compton) and 4s a year rent of a messauge in Godalming. The grant reserved
the bells and lead..

Best regards,

Blair

S.B. Southerden from Winchester, Hampshire

Researching Kearton; Kirton; Kyrton
blai...@globalnet.co.uk

[howard...@juno.com]

Blair,
Thanks for that pedigree - it does add to the information I have
on the Kirtons. Nothing is shown for the children of Ellen Kirton and
Richard White. Do you have information on their family?
Thanks,
Howrad Loomis

[mathew...@gmail.com]

I am wondering if anyone has, since this post of 2005, located any information on the parents of Robert White of Essex (Shalford and Messing). I find it hard to believe he descended from the Somerset Whites. 195 miles was a great distance in his time.

[mathew...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:38:02 PM UTC-4, howard...@juno.com wrote:

[jonv...@yahoo.com]

Regarding the issue of Richard White and Ellen Kirton, they had a single surviving daughter (heir) who married George Philpott, per the Northamptonshire Visitations at http://www.mocavo.com/The-Visitations-of-Northamptonshire-Made-in-1564-and-1618-19-With-Northamptonshire-Pedigrees-From-Various-Harleian-Mss/850842/199