Llywelyn ap Iorwerth AT corrections.
Stewart Baldwin
Following my recent trip to the Family History Library in Salt Lake
City, I have had a chance to look at some of the primary sources which
I had not been able to consult earlier when I made the first draft of
my Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table (Generations 1-18), which was
posted to this newsgroup in July and August. Those who have not seen
the table can find it (in several pieces) by going to Dejanews
<http://www.dejanews.com/>, clicking on "Power search", and then
entering "Llywelyn ap Iorwerth" (without the quotes) as the search
string. At the time I am writing this, all of the pieces are included
on Dejanews in the "new" articles, but it will not be long before some
or all of the pieces will be found among the "old" articles.
The following corrections should be made:
36. change the entire entry to the following:
36. Edwin. [Note: PP.36 gives several contradictory
accounts of Edwin's parentage, all from late manuscripts, so
his parentage should be regarded as unknown. The attempt of
David H. Kelley (in "Edwin of Tegeingl", TAG 46 (1970), 75-
80) to identify him with Edwin of Mercia is unconvincing.]
[Additional note: The text of PP.36 has recently been posted to this
newsgroup by Luke Stevens. The suggested Edwin of Tegeingl - Edwin of
Mercia identification has been discussed in several recent postings to
this newsgroup.]
72. change to: "Unknown [See note under #36]"
144. change to: "Unknown"
196. Owain ap Hywel Dda, etc. - remove the comment "(also #288)"
288-9. change to: "Unknown"
1108: change entire entry to:
1108. Murchad mac Moenaig, king of West Connaught, d. 896 [AI]
2216. change entire entry to:
2216. Moenach [mac Flaithnia?] [Note: As the patronymic of
Murchad mac Moenaig, his first name can be considered well
documented by the AI entry giving the obituary of his son.
In EL, p. 27, the only source cited by Kelley for Moenach's
ancestry is The O'Clery Book of Genealogies (Analecta
Hibernica 18) (Dublin, 1951). This is a seventeenth century
source, which should be treated with caution (because of its
lateness), and I have therefore attached a question mark to
the preceding generations.]
4432, 8864, 17728, 35456, 70912, 141824: add a question mark to each,
and in each case replace the comment "see note under #1108" with "see
note under #2216".
Add the following reference:
AI = The Annals of Inisfallen (MS. Rawlinson B.503), edited
by Sean Mac Airt (Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies,
1951, reprinted 1977)
That's all for now, but I will undoubtedly have additional corrections
when I have a chance to look at the additional data more carefully.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
Luke Stevens <ste...@pss.fit.edu> wrote:
>> 36. Edwin. [Note: PP.36 gives several contradictory
>> accounts of Edwin's parentage, all from late manuscripts, so
>> his parentage should be regarded as unknown.
>
>(I'd just like to point out that *all* of the 77 pedigrees in PP are
>from sources of the same period or later (except ABT & HL), and that in
>most cases Bartrum has noted every variation found in the earlier of
>these MSS, even when they are clearly mistakes. PP.36(1) is the version
>Bartrum accepts, and the other three seem to be misidentifications found
>in only one or two MSS each. Not that this proves anything; the statment
>just doesn't seem to convey this perspective.)
Actually, I think my statement accurately reflects the considerable
disagreement among the manuscripts. If you look at the footnotes in
Bartrum's edition of PP.36(1), where he gives the line Edwin ap Gronwy
ap Einion ap Ywain ap Howel dda, you will see that, in fact, only
three of the eleven manuscript witnesses which Bartrum cites for
PP.36(1) actually give that genealogy. The other eight all omit
Einion, and of these, one adds a "Rodri" between Ywain/Owain and Howel
dda, and two replace Ywain by Rodri. Thus, there are actually four
different genealogies given in the ones which Bartrum lumps together
as PP.36(1), and therefore seven different versions in all, counting
the other three versions for which Bartrum assigned separate numbers.
If you include the four manuscript witnesses (total) for PP.36(2,3,4),
you can see that only three of the seventeen manuscript witnesses for
Edwin's genealogy give the version accepted by Bartrum.
>>70. Dunlaing mac Tuathail, k. Laigin d. 958 [AU] [GaC]
> ^^^^^^
>Odd, he is usually said to have died in 1014, and his father in 958.
Oops. You are right. I accidently assigned him the death date of his
father. Dunlaing mac Tuathail became king of Leinster (Laigin) after
king Mael Morda fell at the Battle of Clontarf on 23 Apr 1014, and
died later in the same year.
>> 17920. Murchad mac Brain Muit, k. Laigin, d. 727 [AU]
>> [CGH.117d12,39,140b14,LL316a63,337f27, WUD] (also #35072)
>>
>> 17921. Conchenn ingen Cellaig Cualain, d. 943 [AU]
>> [CGH.LL316a47, WUD]
> ^^^^^^
> typo?
Take your pick:
a. No, she was just REALLY old :-)
b. Yes, should be 743.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
I wrote:
>you can see that only three of the seventeen manuscript witnesses for
^^^^^^^^^
Let's see, eleven plus four is .....seventeen.........NOT
[I figured I might as well point out my own blunder before someone
else caught it.]
SB