Payne Roet/Guyenne King of Arms Redux
Katheryn_Swynford
Doing my periodic web search for anything new related to Payne Roet's
ancestry, I came across the following 1997 post to this group:
" The London Survey Committee monograph has:
"SIR PAYNE ROET, Guyenne King of Arms.... dates of appointment and
death
unrecorded; said to have granted arms 1334 to Thomas Andrews and
brothers,
but document is obvious fake; perhaps died c. 1352.
"ARMS: Gules three wheels or with a molet in fess point."
In representations for his daughter, these become _Catherine_
wheels."
This strikes me as curious:
(1) this "London Survey Committee monograph" cites Roet's arms as
"gules, three wheels or with a molet in fess point" whereas the editor
for the Harleian Society Publications reviewing the document gives the
arms as "gules, three Catherine wheels, or" YET the drawing
accompanying the text, presumably made upon someone actually looking at
the document's attached *wax* and hence untinctured seal shows merely
three plain wheels (1911 Harleian Society Publications: Vol. LXII,
1911, "The Visitation of the County of Warwick" 1682/3, ed. W. Harry
Rylands, pp. 154-5). No molet in fess point in either the description
or the drawing (made ca. 1682/3).
(2) Who is this group, why do they pronounce the Harleian MS to be an
"obvious fake", and does anybody have a full citation for this
'monograph'?
Any ideas?
Judy Perry
www.katherineswynford.net
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
I suspect what you seeking is the title, The College of Arms. London:
HMSO, published by the London Survey Committee in 1963. This is
reportedly the 16th and final monograph of the committee.
In a related vein, you can find a description of the arms on Duchess
Katherine de Roet's personal seal in the book, Catalogue of Seals in
the British Museum, by Walter de Gray Birch, 3 (1894): 388:
"A circular shield of arms: per pale, dex., quarterly, 1,4, FRANCE
(ancient); 2,3, ENGLAND, a label of three points, ermine, JOHN OF
GAUNT; sin., three Katherine wheels, two and one, ROET."
This confirms that the Roet arms employed three Katherine wheels as a
heraldic device, not plain wheels.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
(royala...@msn.com)
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Alex Maxwell Findlater
"Rouet" is the French for Catherine wheeel, or spinning wheeel; it
also means the wheel in a flint-lock gun. So the arms are canting.
Katheryn_Swynford
Thank you for your response, courteous as always.
Yes, I agree that your description of Katherine's personal seal (a rich
find!) does indeed show that _she_ bore Katherine wheels, but the
Harleian MS in question shows plain wheels. The London Survey
Committee gives (on what authority I know not), "gules three wheels or
with a molet in fess point" (anyone interested can see the scan of the
monograph entry in question at
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/katherineswynford/vwp?.dir=/December2004&.dnm=Entry+for+Sir+Payne+Roet.jpg&.src=gr&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/katherineswynford/vwp%3f.dir=/December2004%26.dnm=One%2bof%2bthe%2breferences.jpg%26.src=gr).
An additional 15th c. MS gives, as an alternate coat for 'Chawcyrs', a
single plain wheel.
Confused as ever... but thankful for your input.
Judy
www.katherineswynford.net
Katheryn_Swynford
for Katherine Roet?
But the differences between plain silver wheels, gold Catherine wheels,
and cartwheels with a molet in fess point remain puzzling. Especially
inasmuch as the Rouelx family didn't bear wheels at all!
Judy
www.katherineswynford.net
Douglas Richardson
Checking through Birch's Catalogue of Seals again, I find there is a
second seal of Katherine de Roet listed under her first married name,
Swynford. In the second seal, there is a pierced mullet (or star)
between the Katherine wheels on Katherine de Roet's coat of arms. I've
transcribed below Birch's account of the second seal. In his notes
following this account (see below), Birch refers the reader to Harl.
ch. 44 A. 12, No. 12,699; see also Add. ch. 5113. The first
citation, Harleian ch. 44 A. 12, No. 12, 699 is a reference to the
first seal I posted for Katherine de Roet when she was Duchess of
Lancaster.
Best always, Douglas Richardson (royala...@msn.com)
Website: www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Walter de Gray Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the Department of
Manuscripts in the British Museum, vol. 3 (1894), pg. 567.
Katherine de Swynford.
Seal used by John, son of Walter de Dunham, of co. Nott.
13,808. [A.D. 1377]. Green, mottled: imperfect edge, indistinct in
places. About 15/16 in. [Add. ch. 5416.]
A shield of arms: per pale, dex., on a chevron some uncertain charges,
in dexter chief a roundle; perhaps for a chevron three boars' heads
couped, SWINFORD. Sin., a pierced mullet between three Katherine
wheels, for ROET, or SWINFORD. Betw. two roses. Within a carved
gothic cinquefoil panel, enriched with open work, and ornamented along
the inner edge with small quatrefoils or ball-flowers.
* SIGILL' [K]ATERINE DE SWYNFORD.
Beaded border.
Cf. Harl. ch. 44 A. 12, No. 12,699; see also Add. ch. 5113.
Katheryn_Swynford
I shall pass this information along forthwith to the Katherine Swynford
google group.
This makes me wonder, now that we have *two* such indications of the
pierced mullet, whether this is an indication of cadency. This might
bode *perhaps* for Lindsay Brook's supposition that Gilles Roeulx =
Payne Roet, but, on the other hand, why a cadency on a shield of wheels
when Roeulx bore lions and absolutely no wheels?
The game's afoot!
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
You're quite welcome. I very much appreciate your interest and your
cordiality.
Regarding the pierced mullet, when I have a moment in the next couple
of weeks, I'll ask my friend, Jim Terzian, if he can explain the mullet
on Katherine Swynford's arms. Jim is quite knowledgeable about
heraldic matters.
If I find any more heraldic seals for Katherine de Roet, I'll be sure
to let you know.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah