Who was Oliver St John
Adrian Channing
<snip>
>
> Finally there is some research by Frank T Smallwood in issue No 1
> (c.1968) of the annual Report of the Friends of Lydiard Tregoze, a
> privately circulated journal devoted to the St John family and to the
> mansion they once owned, Lydiard Tregoze, now owned by Swindon Town
> Council. He produced evidence to show that the descent to Oliver St
> John was (you must have a 'fixed' font, not a proportional one, to see
> this tree alright):
>
> Alexander St John = Jane Dalison
> __________________|___________
> | |
> Oliver Henry = Jane Neale
> |
> Sarah Bulkley = Oliver = Alice Haselden
> ______________________|__
> | |
> Oliver, L.C.J Elizabeth = Rev Samuel Whiting
>
> If this is true, then who was the Alexander who had the sons Oliver and
> Henry? Was this Alexander in any way connected with the St Johns of
> Bletso or those of Lydiard Tregoze, both descended from Elizabeth
> Beauchamp and yet another Oliver St John.
>
> Can anyone cast some light on this?
>
> --
> South Farm:
> A logical entity with a real counterpart but no address bar this.
>
>
In my notes I have this Alexander St John of Thorley, Herts as brother of
Sir John and uncle to Oliver (- bfr 1582) 1st Baron St John of Bleshoe,
together with another brother Sir Oliver of Sharnbrooke, Beds, but then I
have written next to it that I can no longer trace the source for this
information, probably an edition of Burke's.
Burkes Peerage 1938 (p 2166) gives a different line, giving Thomas, 3rd son
of Oliver 1st Bn, as grand father of Sir Oliver the lord chief justice.
CP Vol XI p 335 d) Oliver St John 1Bn Will dated 20 Apr, pr 23 May 1582 PCC
Tirwhite 22. It mentions his yr. sons Oliver, Thomas and Francis (Beds
Hist. Rec. Soc. Pub., vol ii, pp. 137, 138 vol v, p. 27), but does not
state if this Thomas was g-f of the Lord Chief Justice.
So I don't know which is correct.
Note that from O F Mann's "Tyrells of England" I have Humphrey Tyrell
(-1548/9 bur S Ockendon) m c1517 Jane/Joan Ingleton (1502-1557 bur
Thornton) d&h of Robert Ingleton (-1503) of Thornton. She is shown as m2
Alexander St John, but I don't know if this is the same Alexander as above.
I also have a Frances St John who m Nicholas Browne of Polebrooke.
From the History and Antiquities of The Counties of Rutland by James Wright
p 118
Nicholas Brown de com Hartford = .... St. John.
And from DNB p 61 (Vol 3 I think, under Browne)
[Samuel] was the son of Nicholas Browne of Polebrooke,
Northamptonshire [near Achurch] by Frances, daughter of Thomas
St John, third son of Oliver lord St. John.
regards Adrian
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
ED MANN
>
> Who was Oliver StJohn?
> ----------------------
>
> I am referring to the Oliver StJ that was Lord Chief Justice of the
> Common Pleas (what were they?) in Cromwell's time. I know he
> appears to be off topic living mostly after 1600 but his birth, and that
> is what my question is about, was around 1598.
>
> He married successively into the Barrington and Cromwell families, whose
> matriarch Joan Barrington, nee Cromwell, united both. Joan's daughter
> Elizabeth had a daughter, another Joan by Elizabeth's first marriage,
> here referred to as "Jug" and then approaching marriageable age.
> Elizabeth wrote to her mother in 1629:
>
> "I thoute good to lett you know of a proposition of a match for Jug
> propownded by Sir Nathanell Rich. The gentleman's name is Mr Sant
> Johns [none of the modern affectation of SinJin here!] that was lately
> in prison in the tower. I here were worthyly of the man but it seems
> his estate is very small, not above 200li a yere, and besids his father
> was a base sonne (as I have hard) of the Lord Sant Johns."
>
> (This is from the Barrington Family Letters 1628-1632, Camden Fourth
> Series, Volume 28, edited by Arthur Searle.) Elizabeth ended up with
> Oliver St John as her son-in-law.
>
> Next I found in the Dictionary of National Biography that Oliver St John
> "was the son of Oliver St John of Cayshoe, Bedfordshire (a grandson of
> the first Lord St John of Bletsho) by Sarah, daughter of Edward Buckley
> of Odell in the same county". (The DNB author used WOTTON's
> 'Baronetage' and FOSS's 'Judges' for evidence.)
>
> Next in the memoirs of the Protectorate House of Cromwell by Mark Noble
> in 1784, I found, apart from some wild speculation on Oliver StJohn's
> ancestry, there is a quotation from a letter written by Oliver St John
> to Oliver Cromwell saying:
>
> "... I have lately married my two daughters to two brothers of my owne
> name, fons to fir John St John, of Wiltfhire..."
>
> The curious thing about this statement is that he does not refer to
> these Wiltshire St Johns, of Lydiard Tregoze, Near Swindon, as
> relations. If either of the above reports has any foundation they were
> relations, though possibly somewhat distant.
>
> Finally there is some research by Frank T Smallwood in issue No 1
> (c.1968) of the annual Report of the Friends of Lydiard Tregoze, a
> privately circulated journal devoted to the St John family and to the
> mansion they once owned, Lydiard Tregoze, now owned by Swindon Town
> Council. He produced evidence to show that the descent to Oliver St
> John was (you must have a 'fixed' font, not a proportional one, to see
> this tree alright):
>
> Alexander St John = Jane Dalison
> __________________|___________
> | |
> Oliver Henry = Jane Neale
> |
> Sarah Bulkley = Oliver = Alice Haselden
> ______________________|__
> | |
> Oliver, L.C.J Elizabeth = Rev Samuel Whiting
>
> If this is true, then who was the Alexander who had the sons Oliver and
> Henry? Was this Alexander in any way connected with the St Johns of
> Bletso or those of Lydiard Tregoze, both descended from Elizabeth
> Beauchamp and yet another Oliver St John.
>
> Can anyone cast some light on this?
Here's what I have for ELizabeth, Oliver's sister, and her relationship
to the other St. Johns:
Descendants of John de St. John
1 Sir John de St. John aka: K.B. d: Aft. 1501 ref #: W61-13
+Sibyl verch Morgan ref #: BxP:467
2 Sir John St. John aka: K.B. ref #: W61-14
+Margaret Waldegrave
3 Sir Oliver St. John aka: 1st Baron St. John of Bletsoe d: 1582 ref
#: BxP:467
4 Sir John St. John aka: 2d Lord St. John of Bletsoe d: 1596 ref #:
BxP:467
5 Anne St. John ref #: BxP:467
+Sir William Howard aka: Lord Effingham d: Bef. 1625 ref #: BxP:287
3 Margaret St. John ref #: (BPci:182)
+Sir Francis Russell aka: 2d Earl of Bedford b: 1527 d: 28 Jul 1585
ref #: BPci:182
*2nd Wife of John St. John:
+Anne Nevell
3 Cressett St. John ref #: W61-15
+John Boteler d: Abt. 1613
2 Alexander St. John ref #: Ä85-38
+Jane Dalyson ref #: (Ä85-38)
3 Henry St. John d: 1598 ref #: Ä85-39
+Jane Neale d: 1618 ref #: (Ä85-39)
4 Sir Oliver St. John b: Abt. 1575 d: 23 Mar 1625/26 ref #: Ä85-40
+Sarah Bulkeley b: 1580 d: 1611 ref #: W98-16
5 Elizabeth St. John b: Bef. 12 Jan 1604/05 d: 3 Mar 1676/77 ref #:
W98-17
+Rev. Samuel Whiting b: 20 Nov 1597 d: 11 Dec 1679 ref #: (Ä245-42)
*2nd Wife of Oliver St. John:
+Alice Haselden
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
ANNE NICHOLS
had come across my missing Martha, sister to Oliver St John, Earl
Bolinbroke, who married Periam Docwra {died 1642]? Unfortunately I do not
know which Oliver St John/Earl Bolinbroke this was. Am seeking parents of
said Martha and Oliver. Does anyone know of them please? Thanks, Anne
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Channing <ACha...@compuserve.com>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: 16 January 1999 13:19
Subject: Who was Oliver St John
>Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk wrote
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> Finally there is some research by Frank T Smallwood in issue No 1
>> (c.1968) of the annual Report of the Friends of Lydiard Tregoze, a
>> privately circulated journal devoted to the St John family and to the
>> mansion they once owned, Lydiard Tregoze, now owned by Swindon Town
>> Council. He produced evidence to show that the descent to Oliver St
>> John was (you must have a 'fixed' font, not a proportional one, to see
>> this tree alright):
>>
>> Alexander St John = Jane Dalison
>> __________________|___________
>> | |
>> Oliver Henry = Jane Neale
>> |
>> Sarah Bulkley = Oliver = Alice Haselden
>> ______________________|__
>> | |
>> Oliver, L.C.J Elizabeth = Rev Samuel Whiting
>>
>> If this is true, then who was the Alexander who had the sons Oliver and
>> Henry? Was this Alexander in any way connected with the St Johns of
>> Bletso or those of Lydiard Tregoze, both descended from Elizabeth
>> Beauchamp and yet another Oliver St John.
>>
>> Can anyone cast some light on this?
>>
>______________________________
ray montgomery
i have many questions or should i say holes in this familiy!
Does any one know the ancestry of jane Dallison?
Does any one have the ancestry of Thomas neale or Emily cheshire?
Does any one have the ancestry of jane Beaufo?
i hope some one can help all of us here!
Sincerely
RAY
>> (c.1968) of the annual Report of the Friends of Lydiard Tregoze, a
>> privately circulated journal devoted to the St John family and to
>the
>> mansion they once owned, Lydiard Tregoze, now owned by Swindon Town
>> Council. He produced evidence to show that the descent to Oliver St
>> John was (you must have a 'fixed' font, not a proportional one, to
>see
>> this tree alright):
>>
>> Alexander St John = Jane Dalison
>> __________________|___________
>> | |
>> Oliver Henry = Jane Neale
>> |
>> Sarah Bulkley = Oliver = Alice Haselden
>> ______________________|__
>> | |
>> Oliver, L.C.J Elizabeth = Rev Samuel Whiting
>>
>> If this is true, then who was the Alexander who had the sons Oliver
>and
>> Henry? Was this Alexander in any way connected with the St Johns of
>> Bletso or those of Lydiard Tregoze, both descended from Elizabeth
>> Beauchamp and yet another Oliver St John.
>>
>> Can anyone cast some light on this?
>
> Ś = Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
>[page].
> S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
> W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
> WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
> WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
>
>
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ED MANN
>
> Ed, Tim Etal, and to whom it may concern:
> i have many questions or should i say holes in this familiy!
> Does any one know the ancestry of jane Dallison?
> Does any one have the ancestry of Thomas neale or Emily cheshire?
> Does any one have the ancestry of jane Beaufo?
None of these people appear iun this message or anywhere in my db. What
_ARE_ you talking about?
ray montgomery
please analyze your data agianst my request.
1st jane Dallison is the wife of Alexander ST. john born ą1497 Father of
henry St. john that married jane neale of the data you posted.
2nd Thomas neale and Emily Cheshire are the grandparents of Jane Neale of
the Data you your self posted.
3rd. Jane Beaufo is the Grandmother on the maternal side of jane neale of
the data that you posted.
Do you not have these individuals in your Data Base?
These individuals all pertian to the St john data you posted.
Thanks
RAY
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:58:56 -0500 "ED MANN" <EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM>
writes:
___________________________________________________________________
Mike Gallafent
<t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk> writes
> Who was Oliver StJohn?
> ----------------------
>
>If this is true, then who was the Alexander who had the sons Oliver and
>Henry? Was this Alexander in any way connected with the St Johns of
>Bletso or those of Lydiard Tregoze, both descended from Elizabeth
>Beauchamp and yet another Oliver St John.
>
>Can anyone cast some light on this?
>
In 'Testamenta Vetusta' Nicolas, London 1826, there is the following
transcription of the will of Sir John St.John:
'John St.John, of the parish of Bletnesho, Knight, 22nd March 1524. My
body to be buried in the Chapel of St. Edmund, in the north side of the
church of our Lady St.Mary of Bletnesho aforesaid. To Oliver, my son,
all my lands in Sharnebrok, Milton, and Risley, in Bedfordshire; to
Alexander, my son, my lands about Bedford. And I constitute John
St.John, Sir William Gasken, Knt. and Oliver and Alexander St.John, my
sons, my executors; and my Lord Morley, my supervisor.'
There is a footnote that identifies the testator as 'Grandfather of
Oliver first Baron St.John of Bletsho. He was Knight of the Bath 17
Henry VII.'
Another footnote identifies Lord Morley as 'His son-in-law, having
married his eldest daughter Alice.'
I also have a copy of the will of Oliver St.John (1496), second son of
Sir Oliver St.John, of Lydiard Tregoze, by Margaret, daughter of Sir
John de Beauchamp, and sister and sole heir of John Lord Beauchamp of
Bletsho. - anybody interested?:))
--
Mike.
========================================================================
Mike Gallafent - 57, Western Elms Ave, Reading, Berks, RG30 2AL England
======================================Mi...@galafent.demon.co.uk=========
Adrian Channing
Thanks for the details of the Will of Sir John St John
>
> I also have a copy of the will of Oliver St.John (1496), second son of
> Sir Oliver St.John, of Lydiard Tregoze, by Margaret, daughter of Sir
> John de Beauchamp, and sister and sole heir of John Lord Beauchamp of
> Bletsho. - anybody interested?:))
This must be the Oliver who died at Fonterabia, Spain whom Leland describes
as a stout black man (whatever he meant by that). If it is not too much
trouble, could you post details of his Will, thanks
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
Bobstjohn
>Sir Oliver St.John, of Lydiard Tregoze, by Margaret, daughter of Sir
>John de Beauchamp, and sister and sole heir of John Lord Beauchamp of
>Bletsho. - anybody interested?:))
>
>Mike.
>========================================================================
>Mike Gallafent - 57, Western Elms Ave, Reading, Berks, RG30 2AL England
>======================================Mi...@galafent.demon.co.uk=========
>
think these are my ancester but I can't find the connection between my ancester
Matthias Sengen. The first data on Matthias is his marriage in Old Windsor in
1628.
Aloha Bob
Bob St. John_Puna Bed & Breakfast_Rural Puna south of Hilo
Bobstjohn
>think these are my ancester but I can't find the connection between my
>ancester
>Matthias Sengen. The first data on Matthias is his marriage in Old Windsor in
>1628.
>
>Aloha Bob
>
at typing and I think a lot faster than I type. I am interested in any
information about these St. Johns of the 15th and 16th centuries. I still hope
to find some link to someone from that time. He doesn't have to be nobility...
just real.
ED MANN
>
> Now Dear Ed, its okay
> please analyze your data agianst my request.
> 1st jane Dallison is the wife of Alexander ST. john born ą1497 Father of
> henry St. john that married jane neale of the data you posted.
> 2nd Thomas neale and Emily Cheshire are the grandparents of Jane Neale of
> the Data you your self posted.
> 3rd. Jane Beaufo is the Grandmother on the maternal side of jane neale of
> the data that you posted.
> Do you not have these individuals in your Data Base?
Noo . . . but then, I said that already.
Mike Gallafent
<bobs...@aol.com> writes
>>I also have a copy of the will of Oliver St.John (1496), second son of
>>Sir Oliver St.John, of Lydiard Tregoze, by Margaret, daughter of Sir
>>John de Beauchamp, and sister and sole heir of John Lord Beauchamp of
>>Bletsho. - anybody interested?:))
>>--
>>Mike.
>>
>think these are my ancester but I can't find the connection between my ancester
>Matthias Sengen. The first data on Matthias is his marriage in Old Windsor in
>1628.
>
>Aloha Bob
>
OK, herewith the will of Oliver St.John, copied from 'Testamenta
Vetusta', Nicolas, London 1826,
Oliver St.John, Esq.
In the name of God Amen. This is the laste will of me Olyver Seynt John,
Esquyer, sonne to the excellent Dutchesse of Somersett. First, I
bequeath my sowle to Almighty God, and to our Lady Seynt Mary, and to
the Saynts of Heven; and my body to be buried in the quier afore Saynt
Andrew, in the parish Church of Stoke. Also I will, that my wife have,
duryng her life, all my lands and tenements in Legeard Tregoes, and
Polton, with the manor of Borwode and Whatfild-hall, which is myne by
the resonne and gift of my Lady my modre, with a place which I purchased
in the lordshippe of Hacksmore, called Hillisthing, in Dorsetshire; also
I will, that my wife have all suche landes as be myne, by the reason and
gift of the Kynge's grace, at Hatfield Peverall, with the ternyns and
wayes south, with Depford and Depford Strond, otherwise called West
Greenwich; also I will, that she have the lordeship of Garseynton; and
that after her decease all the foresaid lordshippes, landes, and
tenements, return unto my sonne John, and to his heirs; also I will,
that my wife have the lordeship of Lollam, the which I purchased to give
and sell, as in fee simple; moreover I will, that Rauf Rochford have all
suche landes and tenements as I purchased within the lordeship of Sowth
Stoke and North Stoke; also I will, that my wife have all my goodes for
the helth of my sowle, as she thinks best. Thees being witnesses, Master
Richard Bullok, John Writh, Henry Bigote, and Rauf Rochford, with other
yeomen; and made the second daye of Marche, in the year of oure Lord God
MCCCCLXXXXVI'
In a footnote, the testator is described as 'Second son of Oliver
St.John, of Lydiard Tregoze, by Margaret, daughter of Sir John de
Beauchamp, and sister and sole heir of John Lord Beauchamp, of Bletsho;
the said Margaret married, secondly, John Beaufort, Kuke of Somerset,
K.G. and her daughter by him was the mother of King Henry VII.; her
third husband was Lionel Lord Welles.'