Sir John de Sully (1281-1387)
Abelard_to_Lollard
interesting personages of the Middle Ages, Sir John de Sully, K.G.,
born in 1281 and died no earlier than 1387 (at 106). Here's some
information on his family. If anyone's interested in more, reply and
I'll continue with this narrative.
JOHN DE SULLY (1281-1387) AND HIS FAMILY
Sir John de Sully, K.G., was a knight of England who lived at least
106 years, from 1281 until 1387. His amazing longevity is rivaled only
by that of the famous French historian, Joinville, also a centenarian
-- and both of them embraced lives that were as exciting as any
chivalrous romance -- fighting in wars, undertaking diplomatic
ventures, and in John Sully’s case, becoming embroiled in a major
anti-royalist rebellion and (perhaps) a stint of spying on behalf of
England in France. Highlights of his career will be given if anyone
has an interest.
THE SULLY NAME
“Sully,” although two towns in France bear the name, is not from the
Latin, or even Frankish. It originated as a Celtic man’s name, Suli or
Sili, and variants of the name are found throughout the Celtic world.
Its appearance as a town name in France perhaps reflects a grant to a
retiring Gallo-Roman soldier.
“Scilly” (pronounced “Sili”) is the modern name for the islets off
Cornwall, but it was also known to the Romans. Sili and Sulien were
early and important Celtic saints in the region of Sully Castle in
Glamorgan, South Wales, so the name is old in both Gaul and Wales.
SULLY FAMILY HISTORY
The most renowned Sullys were French, with their seat at
Sully-sur-Loire, on the river east of Orleans. One of the most famous,
Seigneur Henri de Sully, a highly respected soldier, diplomat, and
courtier, was a contemporary of our John Sully, and rose to the Grand
Butlership of France in the early 14th century. The beautiful moated
castle begun by Seigneur Henri, which seems to float on the Loire,
remains one of the glories of Medieval and early Renaissance castle
architecture.
In the Middle Ages John Sully’s ancestors were believed to have been
kinsmen of William the Conqueror, and distantly related to the Loire
Valley baronial family, although to modern historians both
relationships seem rather unlikely. The Medieval English family might
have known that these claims were true -- or they may have been as
eager as some modern families to claim noble if dubious connections.
The English Sullys were evidently not present at the battle of
Hastings. It's true that the Holinshed roll of companions of the
Conqueror includes a "Saulay." Other rolls list "Soligny", "Soleni",
"Solignie" and "Salligny". But all of these are likely to be
"Soligny", an unrelated family from a town near Avranches.
The first English Sully, Reynold de Sully, came to England about 1080,
probably not from Sully-sur-Loire but from a small village of the same
name near Bayeux in Normandy. Sully on the Loire may have been the
original "Sully" and the Norman village a satellite, or the names may
be mere coincidence.
Reynold de Sully was granted lands near Great Torrington in Devon by
William Rufus, not early enough to be listed in Domesday. It is
possible that Petrockstowe, Devon, was among the family’s original
manors. Later it was held by John Sully.
Historians often list Reynold as a follower of Robert FitzHamon, and
one of FitzHamon’s "Twelve Conquerors of South Wales," along with other
Devon Norman families including the Turbervilles, Umfravilles,
Grenvilles and Somerys. Some historians question whether the Sullys
arrived in Wales so early -- but without doubt the main line of the
English Sullys (close enough to be recognized as cousins by John Sully)
held the Lordship of Sully, sometimes spelled "Scilly," in Glamorgan.
It’s intriguing to imagine that Reynold de Sully, arriving in South
Wales as one of the "Twelve Conquerors" (or a little later), may have
deliberately chosen to conquer a place already called by his name -- a
lordship that seemed predestined to be "his." There is no evidence at
all that he took his name after the location of his castle. Many did
that, but the likelihood is that Reynold arrived in England already
surnamed "de Sully."
Ultimately the Sully Lordship in Glamorgan included a town (with
castle) on the north bank of the Bristol Channel just east of Barry
Island. It also included Sully Island (a small flat-topped islet) in
the Channel, the manor of Huntspill, just across the Channel in
Somerset, and other lands in Wales, the Midlands, and the West Country
of England. The senior branch regularly married into Welsh and
Anglo-Norman noble houses, held important political and church offices,
and were probably considered baronial by other families, although
baronial status was not regularized until Edward III's time.
There's a lot more! Let me know.
--
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Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
netgazer
Northwest Greek Islands (Zakynthos, etc) and Northern Epirus well before
13th century???
Some say, descendants of the Roman General Sula(?)
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Abelard_to_Lollard" <Abelard_t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For some years I've been researching one of the longest-lived and most
> interesting personages of the Middle Ages, Sir John de Sully, K.G.,
> born in 1281 and died no earlier than 1387 (at 106). Here's some
> information on his family. If anyone's interested in more, reply and
> I'll continue with this narrative.
>
My old friend "The Order of the Garter" by Grace Holmes (Historical
Monographs relating to St George's Chapel, Windsor, vol 16) says that
John Sully was nominated for KG after October 1361. My guess is that in
those times, when they took KG seriously, nomination was not made for
people above the age of 40 and probably for those in the region 25 to
30. This gives a birth period for John Scully of around 1325-35. The
book confirms his death as "c.1388" so he might have been around 65 at
death, well into old age for those times.
Where does the birth date of 1281 come from?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@southfrm.demon.co.uk
For a patchwork of bygones: www.southfrm.demon.co.uk
Abelard_to_Lollard
famous Scrope-Grosvenor controversy) in 1385, one year before his
death, he was asked to give a brief autobiography of his career --
something which was common in that period. Historians (such as Beltz,
Order of Garter) have surmised that two or three John Sullys would be
assumed over such a time span, grandfather, father, and son, but for
Sir John's "autobiography." There is considerably more corroborating
data, since he was so militarily active and since he was a member of
the Black Prince's retinue. I doubt that any modern historians doubt
that he was one very long-lived, very strenuous person. And remember
that the famous 13th cent. French crusader, warrior, and historian,
Joinville, lived to about the same centenarian age and maintained an
amazingly productive life.
It was truly astonishing however, that John Sully could be inducted
into the Order of the Garter at such an advanced age, for 2 reasons.
First, he was a commoner, and nearly all the early Garter knights were
nobles. Second, his age -- considering that recent studies strongly
indicate that the Garter knights comprised 2 tournament teams that
challenged each other. Sir John had to have been strong & healthy. He
was still commanding a retinue at the Battle of Najera (1367), at 86. I
can understand why you are surprised.
While I was growing up, I remember a health food advocate, Bernarr
MacFadden, who started sky diving at 96 or 97, and who lived to about
100. I had a great-great-uncle who farmed until the last few weeks of
his life and died at 103 back in 1948 (born in 1845, and I met this man
when I was a child!) And there's George Burns. Some people just get
good genes, and have a lot of good luck.
Abelard_to_Lollard
2 simple phonemes like "Sul" (or "Sil") and "li" together in an
enormous number of languages. In modern Italian, by the way, Sulla
(the Roman) is spelled "Silla." Vowels are notoriously changeable.
If you want to get really wild, let's remember that the Roman general
Sulla, while stationed in Gaul, had a Gaulish mistress and that they
had at least one son - but I still believe the Gaulish (French) root of
the towns named Sully comes from the Celtic, it's so common in all the
Brythonic-Celtic lands.
However, there were some Celts that wandered down into Greece, too --
and certainly into modern Turkey (the Biblical Galatians). Celts were
all over the place.
netgazer
If history was simple there wouldn't be any historians.
Names are very often misspelled or modified on purpose either to give a
better impression or to avoid misunderstandings.
There is a village in northern Epirus called Sully too.
The question is: Is there a relationship?
Either it is a coincidence, or there MAY be a connection.
after all, "Sir John de Sully" means "John" from "Sully",
John Steele Gordon
> While I was growing up, I remember a health food advocate, Bernarr
> MacFadden, who started sky diving at 96 or 97, and who lived to about
> 100.
Health food nuts living to a ripe old age are the exception, a fact that
seems to receive little attention. One of the earliest, Sylvester Graham
(he invented the graham cracker), thought cholera was caused by
"excessive lewdness and chicken pie." He died in his early fifties.
Adele Davis who made a fortune writing books on the joys of living on
twigs died of colon cancer in her early sixties.
My favorite, however, was Robert Rodale. He founded Prevention magazine
and also made a bundle advocating a diet devoid of all gastronomic
pleasure. On the Dick Cavett show one night, Cavett asked him how old he
was. "I am seventy years old," he replied, "and I fully expect to live
to be a hundred." Whereupon his eyes bulged out, he seized his chest and
fell out of the chair stone dead. (Needless to say, the show was never
broadcast). I am not making this up.
Julia Child, by way of contrast, is going strong in her mid eighties
with a new book coming out this fall.
Heavy cream, anyone?
JSG
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Abelard_to_Lollard" <Abelard_t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That's what's so amazing about him. During a court deposition (in the
> famous Scrope-Grosvenor controversy) in 1385, one year before his
> death, he was asked to give a brief autobiography of his career --
> something which was common in that period.
Is this the only contemporary evidence that we have? And was it
actually contemporary or might it have been a fake, or even an
embellished account?
Personally I do not rely on what very old people tell me. Sometimes
they are quite emphatic about things and regretably have them wrong. I
always check.
> Historians (such as Beltz,
> Order of Garter) have surmised that two or three John Sullys would be
> assumed over such a time span, grandfather, father, and son, but for
> Sir John's "autobiography." There is considerably more corroborating
> data, since he was so militarily active and since he was a member of
> the Black Prince's retinue.
Edward lived from 1330 to 1378. John Sully was KG in 1361 and died c.
1388, 10 years after Edward. This does not corroborate great age.
> I doubt that any modern historians doubt
> that he was one very long-lived, very strenuous person. And remember
> that the famous 13th cent. French crusader, warrior, and historian,
> Joinville, lived to about the same centenarian age and maintained an
> amazingly productive life.
>
> It was truly astonishing however, that John Sully could be inducted
> into the Order of the Garter at such an advanced age, for 2 reasons.
> First, he was a commoner, and nearly all the early Garter knights were
> nobles.
John Sully was the 39th member of The Garter. Of the 38 that preceded
him, 16 have no title. Though of those 16 commoners, Otho Holland was
brother of the Earl of Kent so might be considered to be almost noble.
So John S was not unusual, it was perhaps after 1400 that the
"commoners" tended to be left out and the powers in the land included.
The garter book mentions that John S fought at Crecy.
> Second, his age -- considering that recent studies strongly
> indicate that the Garter knights comprised 2 tournament teams that
> challenged each other. Sir John had to have been strong & healthy. He
> was still commanding a retinue at the Battle of Najera (1367), at 86. I
> can understand why you are surprised.
I just don't believe he was 86 in 1367!
>
> While I was growing up, I remember a health food advocate, Bernarr
> MacFadden, who started sky diving at 96 or 97, and who lived to about
> 100. I had a great-great-uncle who farmed until the last few weeks of
> his life and died at 103 back in 1948 (born in 1845, and I met this man
> when I was a child!) And there's George Burns. Some people just get
> good genes, and have a lot of good luck.
>
--
Renia Simmonds
> Abelard_to_Lollard wrote:
>
> > While I was growing up, I remember a health food advocate, Bernarr
> > MacFadden, who started sky diving at 96 or 97, and who lived to about
> > 100.
>
> Health food nuts living to a ripe old age are the exception, a fact that
> seems to receive little attention. One of the earliest, Sylvester Graham
> (he invented the graham cracker), thought cholera was caused by
> "excessive lewdness and chicken pie." He died in his early fifties.
> Adele Davis who made a fortune writing books on the joys of living on
> twigs died of colon cancer in her early sixties.
>
> My favorite, however, was Robert Rodale. He founded Prevention magazine
> and also made a bundle advocating a diet devoid of all gastronomic
> pleasure. On the Dick Cavett show one night, Cavett asked him how old he
> was. "I am seventy years old," he replied, "and I fully expect to live
> to be a hundred." Whereupon his eyes bulged out, he seized his chest and
> fell out of the chair stone dead. (Needless to say, the show was never
> broadcast). I am not making this up.
>
> Julia Child, by way of contrast, is going strong in her mid eighties
> with a new book coming out this fall.
>
> Heavy cream, anyone?
>
> JSG
And what about the chappie who *invented* jogging, who dropped stone dead in
the middle of a jog? Or Jane Fonda, High-Priestess of "Feel the Burn" who
had a heart attack. (Was it a heart attack? Something.)
And, of course, the latest findings, which suggest that people low on
cholestrol are prone to depression and suicide.
Can't win, can you?
Renia
MTaHT
>and also made a bundle advocating a diet devoid of all gastronomic
>pleasure. On the Dick Cavett show one night, Cavett asked him how old he
>was. "I am seventy years old," he replied, "and I fully expect to live
>to be a hundred." Whereupon his eyes bulged out, he seized his chest and
>fell out of the chair stone dead. (Needless to say, the show was never
>broadcast). I am not making this up.
>
>Julia Child, by way of contrast, is going strong in her mid eighties
>with a new book coming out this fall.
>
>Heavy cream, anyone?
>
>JSG
One thing is certain, if you follow the preachings of the "health nuts", you
might not live to be 100, but it will seem like it. <g>
Mike