Need correction on this pedigree
Don Matson
granddaughter be married to her great grandfather, such as.....
Sigefried de Guisnes, married Estrude/Elftrude of Flanders b. ca. 932
1. Heloise de Guisnes marr. -----de Crispin
2. Adolphe/Ardolf I "Le Postume" Comte de Guisnes b. 966 d. aft. 996
marr. Maud/Mahaut/Matildis de Ponthieu
A. Raoul/Rodelphus, Ct. of Guisnes marr. Rosela, of St. Pol, dau.
of Hugh
II
B. Gui/Guy, Ct. of Boulogne marr. Isabel?
1. Baudoin/Ernicule II, Ct. of Boulogne b. ca. 976 d. 1005-1033
marr. Aleida/Adele/Adela de Gand, of Ghent, Holland
a. Rosetta/Rosella de St. Pol b. ca. 1000
b. Eustace I Ct. de Boulogne b. ca. 1004 marr.
Maud/Mahaut/Mathilda
de Louvain
c. Maud/Mahaut/Matildis de Ponthieu (is she the same as the
wife of
Adolphe/Ardolf I above??)
HELP!!!!
Don
Todd A. Farmerie
I see in this shadows of various older unsupported pedigrees, all
spliced together. Note that it has Baudoin born just 10 years
after his 'grandfather' (who was actually, as shown below, his
brother-in-law), and repeats the names (and toponyms) of the
wives of successive generations (Maud and Rosella) as daughters
of Boudoin.
The most recent analysis of the Counts of Boulogne, which
appeared in the dissertation of Heather Tanner, and summarized in:
Heather J. Tanner, The Expansion of the Power and Influence of
the Counts of Boulogne under Eustace II, in Anglo Norman Studies
XIV (1992) pp. 251-86.
Gives the following:
Baldwin II = AElfthryth (Elftrude)
of Flanders | of Wessex
|
|--------------|-------------|
Arnulf I Adalolf (AEthelwulf) d. 933
of Flanders C. of Boulogne
| |
| Arnulf I d. 971
| C. of Boulogne
Elftrude = Sigerich |
| C. of Guines Arnulf II = NN of Lens
| d. ca. 990 |
| |---------|-------------|
| | | |
Ardulf=Maud Arnulf III Baldwin d. 1024
C. of Guines (Ernicule) C. of Boulogne
= Adele of Ghent
| who remarried
| Enguerrand
| of Ponthieu
|
Eustace I
C. of Boulogne
taf
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
Your first step should be to throw the source that gave you the above
mess in the garbage, or at least to refrain from using it any further.
At least three serious blunders have been added to information that
was already questionable to begin with:
1. Count Ardolf of Guînes has apparently been merged into the same
person as count Adalolf of Boulogne (younger son of Baldwin II of
Flanders), or perhaps with a conjectural later namesake.
2. Information from Lambert of Ardres (twlefth century) regarding a
count Ernicule of Boulogne has been jumbled with information from a
thirteenth century source about an alleged count Gui of Boulogne (of
unknown parentage, if he even existed at all) and his son Baldwin and
grandson Eustace to combine them into one person (your
"Baudoin/Ernicule II"), although it is likely that there are a number
indermediaries between the above original sources and what you have,
some of which most likely added their own mistakes into the mix.
3. There is a strange mixture of the families of the counts of
Boulogne and Ponthieu in the above account, probably a combination of
#2 above and the marriage of Enguerrand I of Ponthieu to the widow of
a count of Boulogne (exact identity not completely certain).
The genealogy of the counts of Boulogne is very problematic in the
late tenth and early eleventh centuries. In such cases, secondary
sources which lack a discussion of the primary evidence have very
little value.
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
Are you drawing information from both the aritcle by Heather Tanner in
_Anglo-Norman Studies_ 14 and her unpublished 1990 seminar paper
'Annexation, Assassination, and Alliance: the Survival of an Independent
County of Boulogne' which she gave as the reference for her genealogical
table #1 (Boulogne)?
The paper in ANS doesn't give an origin for Adele (Adelvie, as Tanner
named her) who married successively Counts Balduin of Boulogne and
Enguerrand of Ponthieu. I've seen various conjectures about this,
including that she might have been a daughter of Count Arnulf of West
Friesland (Holland) & Liutgard of Luxemburg. Who is suggested as her
father, "of Ghent"?
I haven't been favourably impressed by Tanner's work - she is rather
approximate on details, and her remarks on this woman's supposed
connections and their alleged importance are a case in point: she wrote
of Adlevie's "daughter by her second husband, Count Enguerrand I of
Ponthieu" (p. 262) without offering any source for this - but no
daughter of this Enguerrand is recorded, to my knowledge.
Tanner meant the wife of Guillaume de Talou, count of Arques, as she
specified in loc cit, note 9. However, this lady belonged to the
following generation, since she was a sister of Count Enguerrand I's
grandson Count Guy I (died 13 October 1100), and like him may have had
no descent from Adelvie at all - see _The Gesta Normannorum ducum of
William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni_, edited by
Elisabeth MC van Houts, 2 vols (Oxford, 1992-95) II p. 104 (following an
account of the siege of Arques in October 1053): Denique cum uxore sua,
sorore scilicet Widonis comitis Pontiui, Eustachium Bolonie comitem
[Willelmus] expetiit, et in eius familia uictum et uestitum percipiens
usque ad mortem suam extorris remansit" (trans: Finally he [William of
Arques] along with his wife, sister of Count Guy of Ponthieu, found his
way to Count Eustace of Boulogne, and obtaining food and clothing in his
household reamined in exile there until his death).
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> The paper in ANS doesn't give an origin for Adele (Adelvie, as Tanner
> named her) who married successively Counts Balduin of Boulogne and
> Enguerrand of Ponthieu. I've seen various conjectures about this,
> including that she might have been a daughter of Count Arnulf of West
> Friesland (Holland) & Liutgard of Luxemburg. Who is suggested as her
> father, "of Ghent"?
I think I took this from some other source, and accidentally
included it (this table came from old notes). I retract.
> I haven't been favourably impressed by Tanner's work - she is rather
> approximate on details, and her remarks on this woman's supposed
> connections and their alleged importance are a case in point: she wrote
> of Adlevie's "daughter by her second husband, Count Enguerrand I of
> Ponthieu" (p. 262) without offering any source for this - but no
> daughter of this Enguerrand is recorded, to my knowledge.
Certainly I would like to see a paper presenting her
reconstruction, rather than just the reference to her talk (which
I doubt contained footnotes). This table seems almost thrown in
as an afterthought, as there are parts not even mentioned, and it
is not directly relevant to what is presented.
> Tanner meant the wife of Guillaume de Talou, count of Arques, as she
> specified in loc cit, note 9. However, this lady belonged to the
> following generation, since she was a sister of Count Enguerrand I's
> grandson Count Guy I (died 13 October 1100), and like him may have had
> no descent from Adelvie at all - see _The Gesta Normannorum ducum of
> William of Jumièges, Orderic Vitalis and Robert of Torigni_, edited by
> Elisabeth MC van Houts, 2 vols (Oxford, 1992-95) II p. 104 (following an
> account of the siege of Arques in October 1053): Denique cum uxore sua,
> sorore scilicet Widonis comitis Pontiui, Eustachium Bolonie comitem
> [Willelmus] expetiit, et in eius familia uictum et uestitum percipiens
> usque ad mortem suam extorris remansit" (trans: Finally he [William of
> Arques] along with his wife, sister of Count Guy of Ponthieu, found his
> way to Count Eustace of Boulogne, and obtaining food and clothing in his
> household reamined in exile there until his death).
Certainly the estimate of Baldwin's death in 1024 means that a
granddaughter of his widow must have been rather young in 1053.
FWIW, I have seen it suggested, in another context, that Guy,
brother of Hugh and uncle of Count Guy d. 1100, might have acted
as count during the minority of his nephews.
taf
Peter Stewart
I suppose it's possible that the elder Guy (later bishop of Amiens, and
probably author of the 'Carmen de Hastingae Proelio') acted as count in
Ponthieu, but if so the reason is not at all likely to have been the
minority of his nephew/s.
The birthdates of the brothers Count Enguerrand II (killed 25 October
1053) and Count Guy (died 1100) are unrecorded, but there is no evidence
I can find to suppose that both might have been sons of their father's
second wife, Adelvie, the widowed countess of Boulogne, or that they
were half-brothers.
Enguerrand II could not have been a minor at the time of his father's
death on or shortly before 20 Novemebr 1052 (the known date of burial),
since he was reported to be "nobilitate notus ac fortitudine" (famed for
his nobility and bravery, see _The 'Gesta Guillelmi' of William of
Poitiers_, edited by RHC Davis & Marjorie Chibnall (Oxford, 1998) p. 40)
at the time of his own death in an ambush at Saint-Aubin-sur-Scie less
than a year later - he could hardly have earned such a reputation in
somewhat less than eleven months of majority.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
[snip]
>Are you drawing information from both the aritcle by Heather Tanner in
>_Anglo-Norman Studies_ 14 and her unpublished 1990 seminar paper
>'Annexation, Assassination, and Alliance: the Survival of an Independent
>County of Boulogne' which she gave as the reference for her genealogical
>table #1 (Boulogne)?
[snip]
Today, while at the Auburn University library, I found the following
book by Tanner, published this year: "Families, Friends and Allies -
Boulogne and Politics in Northern France and England, c. 879-1160"
(Brill, Leiden & Boston, 2004, ISBN 90 04 13243 0), and checked it out
from the library. There are a number of genealogical tables, but
their documentation appears to be well hidden within the text (if it
appears there at all). I will post more when I have had the chance to
examine the book for more than the thirty or so minutes that I have
given to it so far, but I wanted to make people aware of the new work
in case they wanted to take a look at it.
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
Here is the table of contents:
Abbreviations .......................................ix
List of Illustrations ...............................xiii
Maps ............................................ xiv
Preface .......................................... xxi
Acknowledgments .....................................xxiii
Chapter One Introduction ........................1
Chapter Two The Early Counts of Boulogne .........20
Chapter Three The Eleventh-Century Counts .........69
Chapter Four Eustace III and his gradual amalgamation
into the Anglo-Norman polity ........................129
Chapter Five The Apex of Boulonnais Power and the
Fickleness of Fate ..................................181
Chapter Six Noble by birth, more noble by their deeds
and virtues .........................................244
Chapter Seven Conclusion ..........................286
Genealogies
Comital Family of Boulogne ........................290
Comital Family of Flanders ..........................292
Comital Family of St Pol ............................294
Comital Family of Ponthieu ..........................295
Comital Family of Amiens, Valois & Vexin ............296
Comital Family of Guines ............................298
Comital Families of West Frisia and Hamaland ......299
Ducal Family of Ardenne-Verdun ......................300
Ducal Family of Ardenne-Luxembourg ..................301
Mandeville & Tingry Families ........................302
de Tosny Family .....................................303
Fitz Osbern Family ................................ 304
Unrochings ...................................... 305
Ducal Family of Normandy .......................... 306
Comital Families of Hainaut & Louvain ............. 307
Comital Family of Vermandois ...................... 308
Comital Family of Blois-Chartres .................. 309
Royal Families of France ......................... 310
Royal Families of England ......................... 312
Comital Family of Beaumont ........................ 314
Comital, Family of Warenne ........................ 315
Clare Family ...................................... 316
de Lucy Family .................................... 317
de Sackville Family ............................... 318
Appendices
1. Acta of the Boulonnais Comital Family
Charters & References to Lost Acta
(late 9th-mid 12th c.) ............................ 319
Boulonnais Acta issued by King Stephen and
Queen Matilda .......................................326
Non-Boulonnais Acta Issued by Stephen & William .... 331
2. Honour of Boulogne .............................335
3. Tenants of the Honour of Boulogne 1135-54 ......340
4. The Epitaphs of Eustace III, Countess Mary, and
Queen Matilda III ...................................343
5. Comital Coins from the Mints Boulogne and Lens ...345
Bibliography ....................................... 347
Index ........................................... 383
There doesn't appear to be much page-space devoted to sources for the
early counts, or of the other family genealogies, and only a brief
survey of the comital acta over three-and-a-half centuries.
Nevertheless, Stewart's report will be most interesting.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
through Eustace I) as it appears on page 290 of Heather Tanner's new
book "Families, Friends, and Allies - Boulogne and Politics in
Northern France and England, c. 879-1160". As usual, a constant with
font and a line length of at least 70 are needed for the table to view
correctly. Please keep in mind that the documentation for most of
this table is still troublesome, so it should only be interpreted as
Tanner's opinion unless more convincing support is produced.
Baldwin II of Flanders m. Elstrude, K. Alfred's daughter
(879-918) |
___________________|_______________________
| | | |
Arnulf I Ealswid Ermengarth Adalulf
of Flanders of Boulogne (918-33)
m. ?
|
_______________________|.............
| | |
Arnulf I brother Baldwin Balzo
(962-c. 988) (d. 961/2) (d. 973)
_____________|_______
| |
Baldwin I Arnulf II
of Boulogne of Ternois
(c. 988-1024) (c. 988-1019)
m. m. ?
Adelvie ? of Gent
| _____|______
Eustace I | |
(1024-47) son son/daughter
m.
Matilda of Louvain
|
etc.
[Note: I have put the line from Arnulf I and his brothers sticking up
into nowhere as the carelessly printed genealogical table has it, but
it is clear from the text that Adalulf is the intended father. (In
fact, the first three generations are reasonably well documented.)]
I have now searched the book enough to say that if there is any
coherent discussion of the documentation for the generations from
Arnulf I of Boulogne to Eustace I, then it is well hidden in the book.
I have searched every page listed in the index for Arnulf I, Arnulf
II, Baldwin I, and Adelvie without finding any cited contemporary
authority for identifying Arnulf I as father of Baldwin I and Arnulf
II, Baldwin I and Arnulf II as brothers, Baldwin I as father of
Eustace I, or Adelvie as wife of Baldwin I or mother of Eustace (she
is stated in Hariulf's Chronicle of the abbey of St. Riquer to have
married a count of Boulogne, but his name is not given).
So far, the most detailed discussion I have found on this part of the
genealogy (not counting undocumented statements of relationship as
fact) is footnote 39 on page 79 (The index is not very good, so there
could very well be more discussion which I have not seen): "Although
Rigaux thinks that Eustace I was the brother of Arnulf II of Ternois,
his death in 1047 strongly suggests that he was Baldwin's son, not
brother. Rigaux's genealogy does not include Baldwin of Boulogne,
which overlooks the evidence of the 988 charter for St. Peter's Gent
issued by Baldwin IV."
Although I have not seen Rigaux ("Recherches Sur Les Premiers Comtes
de Boulogne", Bulletin de la société académique de l'arrondissement de
Boulogne-sur-Mer 6 (1900-03):361-9), it is not hard to guess here that
he is relying on Lambert of Ardres (not necessarily reliable on this
point), who gives "Ernicule" (evidently Arnulf I of Boulogne) two sons
Arnulf and Eustace.
Page 71 mentions the charter of Baldwin IV of Flanders that Tanner
cites as evidence for Baldwin I of Boulogne (see footnote 4 for the
list of witnesses). It appears that this count Baldwin was not
specifically identified as a count of Boulogne, and I have not seen
anything in Tanner's book giving clear contemporary documentation for
the existence of count Baldwin I of Boulogne.
There is a noncontemporary genealogy of the counts of Boulogne stating
that Eustace was a son of count Baldwin of Boulogne by his wife Ada de
Gant (no parentage stated), with Baldwin supposedly being the son of a
count Guy of Boulogne ("Guido à la Blanke-Barbe"), among other dubious
statements (only some of which seem to have found their way into the
internet sites) [see RHF 11: 346]. This would seem like a likely
source used by Tanner for some of her conclusions on this part of the
genealogy, although I have not yet found any citations to that effect.
On page 76, note 23, she cites Duchesne's genealogy of the counts of
Guînes, etc. (available on Gallica), p. 38 as stating without proof
that Adelvie was a daughter of count Arnulf of Gent (although she
should have noted that Duchesne hedged his statement: "... on peut
presumer ..."), and she places Adelvie as a daughter of Arnulf,
qualified with a question mark, on the genealogical table on page 299.
While I have no quarrel with eliminating "Guido à la Blanke-Barbe"
from the list of historical counts of Boulogne, it would seem that a
reasonable discussion of the topic of this genealogy would at least
mention him, if only to explain the reason for rejecting him. This
Guy does not appear in the index, although I have found "Guy
White-beard" mentioned in a footnote on page 282 (without saying who
he is). The index is not very good, so it is hard to say what other
references might occur on pages which I have not yet checked. I have
also noticed more proofreading errors than I should have on such a
brief examination of the book. My favorite so far is the discovery
(p. 350) of king "Etudes" of France (888-898), of whose existence I
had not previously heard. :-)
Although this book has been a great disappointment so far, there are
probably still some useful tidbits in there that a more careful
reading will turn up, and I will report any that I find.
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
> Here is the genealogical table of the early counts of Boulogne (up
> through Eustace I) as it appears on page 290 of Heather Tanner's new
> book "Families, Friends, and Allies - Boulogne and Politics in
> Northern France and England, c. 879-1160". As usual, a constant with
> font and a line length of at least 70 are needed for the table to view
> correctly. Please keep in mind that the documentation for most of
> this table is still troublesome, so it should only be interpreted as
> Tanner's opinion unless more convincing support is produced.
>
> Baldwin II of Flanders m. Elstrude, K. Alfred's daughter
> (879-918) |
> ___________________|_______________________
> | | | |
> Arnulf I Ealswid Ermengarth Adalulf
> of Flanders of Boulogne (918-33)
> m. ?
> |
> _______________________|.............
> | | |
> Arnulf I brother Baldwin Balzo
> (962-c. 988) (d. 961/2) (d. 973)
I'm not sure what the dotted line here indicates - in the so-called 'De
Arnulfo comite' (as the editor of MGH SS IX titled it), a later addition
on the dorso of an original diploma of King Lothaire dated 5 May 966
(see _Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum centesimum scripta_,
edited by Maurits Gysseling & Anton Koch, 2 vols (Brussels or Tongres,
1950), I p. 162, no. 63) Balduin Balzo is said to have been the son of
Adalulf by a concubine ("Baldzo filius fuit Adalulfi qui erat uterinus
frater Arnulfi magni eundemque Baldzonem ex concubina genuit...Hic est
ille Balduuinus cognomento Baldzo"). However, unless explained
otherwise, this table from Tanner's book makes it appear that he is
conjecturally the full brother of his legitimate siblings. Does she
expound on such a theory by any chance?
<snip>
> Page 71 mentions the charter of Baldwin IV of Flanders that Tanner
> cites as evidence for Baldwin I of Boulogne (see footnote 4 for the
> list of witnesses). It appears that this count Baldwin was not
> specifically identified as a count of Boulogne, and I have not seen
> anything in Tanner's book giving clear contemporary documentation for
> the existence of count Baldwin I of Boulogne.
This is the famous charter dated 1 April 988 in which Rozala, the widow
of Count Arnulf II of Flanders and later (as I think) wife of King
Robert II, is problematically named "Susanna regina" (Queen Susanna).
Apart from her son Balduin IV of Flanders, five counts subscribed this
document. One of them was also named Balduin, but all appear with just
the comital title and no other designation. Another is Count Arnulf, who
for all that is known could be Arnulf of Boulogne - rather too neatly
shown in the table above as dying "c. 988", presumably to allow for his
son to have the comital title by the date of this charter when there is
no proof for this.
Thanks for "King Etudes of France" - he sounds like a character from a
musical farce, by Offenbach perhaps.
Peter Stewart
The...@aol.com
Dear Peter, et al.,
I think there's may be a problem between your ISP (email reader)
and the font displaying the table Stewart shows. AOL does the same
(the display in the newsgroup on Google, or through Rootsweb, clears
up the problem). If you copy the message, and convert it (either in
email or a program such as Word or WordPerfect) to "New Courier"
[10-space], you'll get the chart as Stewart intended. Baldwin Balzo
then comes across as being on the illegitimate end of the dotted
line....
On another matter brought up in your post, I thought some time
ago re: the Rosala/Susanna issue there was some explanation, other
than two distinct names being assigned to this lady during her
lifetime. You noted in your response to Stewart,
'...Rozala, the widow of Count Arnulf II of Flanders and later
(as I think) wife of King Robert II, is problematically named
"Susanna regina" (Queen Susanna).'
I believe the explanation is a geographic one. The full text
from the charter of 988 might validate or disprove this idea (likely
it does neither), but I would suggest that Rozala's Piedmontese
origin gave rise to her being referred to as being from Susa, i.e.
'the Susan queen' [perhaps better in Latin as "regina Susana"]. For
what little we likely know of Rozala, she may well have been born in
the town of Susa....
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart
I don't understand what you mean about the table - I viewed this in a
fixed-width font as intended by Stewart, and Balduin Balzo is connected
by a dotted line to the solid line from which his brothers depend, with
a common link to their father. Failing an explanation, I don't take this
to indicate illegitimacy, especially since a different mother is not
even vestigially represented on the table, but rather an uncertain
relationship.
As to "Susanna", this certainly is not an adjectival term meaning she
was born in Susa - there are several sources establishing that this was
an alternative name of Countess Rozala (see below), and the problem I
referred to is with her title as queen on 1 April 988, not with her
given name. The question is vastly more complex than the facts of the
lady's origin: for one thing, she had grown up in Germany, probably at
the imperial court, and not even in Italy much less in Susa. Her birth
is not at all likely to have occurred there.
For Susanna as her name, see 'Annales Elnonenses' in _Les annales de
Saint-Pierre de Gand et de Saint-Amand_, edited by Philip Grierson
(Brussels, 1937) p. 152: "Arnulfus iunior uxorem duxit filiam Berengeri
regis Susannam" (trans: Arnulf the younger married King Berengar's
daughter Susanna); 'Genealogia comitum Flandriae Bertiniana", edited by
Ludwig Bethmann, MGH SS IX p. 306: "Arnulfus....duxit filiam Berengeri
regis Langobardorum, Ruzelam quae et Susanna" (trans: Arnulf....married
Rozala, also known as Susanna, daughter of Berengar, king of the
Lombards); and 'Vita Bertulfi Renticensis' (excerpts), edited by Oswald
Holder-Egger, MGH SS XV part 2 p. 638: "Rozala....post mortem Arnulfi
principis Roberto regi Francorum nupsit, et Susanna dicta mutato nomine,
regina regnavit" (trans: Rozala....after the ruler Arnulf's death
married Robert, king of the Franks and, called by the alternative name
Susanna, reigned as queen).
She was also given the name Susanna by King Henri I in a diploma of
1038, after her death: "regina diuae memoriae Susanna", see _Diplomata
belgica..._, cited in my previous post, p. 197 no. 92.
The puzzle of the celebrated charter dated 1 April 988 is involved more
with politics and diplomacy than with genealogy, and would not be a
topic of interest to many here. Ferdinand Lot considered that the
document must have belonged to 989, just over a year after the death of
Rozala Susanna's first husband in 988, taken to have occurred on 30
March [see _Études sur le règne de Hugues Capet et la fin du Xe siècle_
BEHE 147 (Paris, 1903) p. 4, note 2], although he also followed the
unconvincing suggestion of the RHGF editors that as a king's daughter
she might have used the title 'regina' during her first marriage.
However, this dating does not account for the long introductory text of
the charter, meditating for half of its length on mortality, which was
clearly more suitable in the mourning period soon after Count Arnulf
II's demise than for remembrance soon after the anniversary.
Père Anselme confused this question, stating that Count Arnulf II of
Flanders was buried on 23 March 988 in the chapel of Saint-Laurent at
Mont Blandin abbey in Ghent, and that his tomb was only finished on 30
March of that year, causing some authors to mistake this for the date of
his death; however, a source was not given for this information [see
_Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison royale de
France..._, third edition, 9 vols (Paris, 1726-33) II p. 715]. Guillaume
de Jumièges was cited at the end of the article on Arnulf II, but no
other medieval sources for details about him. Elsewhere in Anselme it is
claimed that Rosala (named Roselle) was a widow on 23 March 989 [op cit
I p. 71].
I think Arnulf II was dead by 23 March 988, and that his widow did not
marry King Robert II until some tme between March and November 989, a
year or so after she was titled "regina" in Flanders as a deliberate
rebuff to Hugo Capet, who was at the time prematurely seeking her hand
in marriage for his young son.
Peter Stewart
The...@aol.com
Dear Peter,
Grazie mille [as they say in Susa] for the added discourse and
sources re: Rozala/Susanna. A nominative anomaly this will likely
remain. Given what we don't know precisely re: her birthplace, I
will keep these notes for future reference.
The genealogical table from Tanner does have problems to be
sure; the representation of Baldwin Balzo's illegitimacy (use of
the subject dotted line) is a fairly typical if not precise
representation, esp. given that no mother(s) are assigned to the
indicated offspring of Adelolf (or Adalulf).
An earlier problem I noted: Arnulf I of Flanders and Adelolf
had a sister Ealswid (Ealhswyđ per contemporaneous English sources),
but also a sister Ermentrude or Irmintrude, the latter the obvious
namesake of her great-grandmother Ermentrude, wife of Charles 'the
Bald', King of Francia (or Francia/rex Francorum, depending). I
wonder where Tanner obtained the name Ermengarth for this table?
I assume this is a typographic error, in place of Ermentrude, unless
perhaps Stewart knows otherwise.....?
Cheers,
John
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>> Baldwin II of Flanders m. Elstrude, K. Alfred's daughter
>> (879-918) |
>> ___________________|_______________________
>> | | | |
>> Arnulf I Ealswid Ermengarth Adalulf
>> of Flanders of Boulogne (918-33)
>> m. ?
>> |
>> _______________________|.............
>> | | |
>> Arnulf I brother Baldwin Balzo
>> (962-c. 988) (d. 961/2) (d. 973)
>
>I'm not sure what the dotted line here indicates - in the so-called 'De
>Arnulfo comite' (as the editor of MGH SS IX titled it), a later addition
>on the dorso of an original diploma of King Lothaire dated 5 May 966
>(see _Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum centesimum scripta_,
>edited by Maurits Gysseling & Anton Koch, 2 vols (Brussels or Tongres,
>1950), I p. 162, no. 63) Balduin Balzo is said to have been the son of
>Adalulf by a concubine ("Baldzo filius fuit Adalulfi qui erat uterinus
>frater Arnulfi magni eundemque Baldzonem ex concubina genuit...Hic est
>ille Balduuinus cognomento Baldzo"). However, unless explained
>otherwise, this table from Tanner's book makes it appear that he is
>conjecturally the full brother of his legitimate siblings. Does she
>expound on such a theory by any chance?
[snip]
The above was my fault for not indicating what the dotted line means.
The dotted line is Tanner's notation for illegitimacy in her tables,
so she is agreeing with the usual interpretation here.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
[snip]
> An earlier problem I noted: Arnulf I of Flanders and Adelolf
> had a sister Ealswid (Ealhswyð per contemporaneous English sources),
> but also a sister Ermentrude or Irmintrude, the latter the obvious
> namesake of her great-grandmother Ermentrude, wife of Charles 'the
> Bald', King of Francia (or Francia/rex Francorum, depending). I
> wonder where Tanner obtained the name Ermengarth for this table?
> I assume this is a typographic error, in place of Ermentrude, unless
> perhaps Stewart knows otherwise.....?
I did not notice Tanner's slip when I was copying her table.
Æthelweard uses the spelling "Earmentruth" for this daughter, so at
first I thought this was just another proofreading error. However,
looking at Tanner's table of the counts of Flanders, I see that in
addition to the sons Arnulf and Adalulf, she gives Baldwin II of
Flanders four or five additional children by Elstrude, namely
Elfstrude, Ealswid, Ermengarde (with one of the last two as wife of
Hilduin, count of Tournai, with a question mark either indicating that
the attribution is uncertain, or that which sister is uncertain), a
child "X" (mother of abbot Hildebrand of St. Bertin, known to be a
nephew of Arnulf I - it is not clear whether or not she is allowing
for the possibility that "X" is the same as one of the other
children), and Albert provost (given as a legitimate son). She also
supplies Baldwin II with an illegitimate daughter Ricsinde, wife of
Evrard, advocate of St. Bertin, and mother of Evrard, advocate of St.
Bertin, and Adalf [sic], abbot of St. Bertin. Of the above
individuals, Baldwin II, his wife Elstrude, and his sons Arnulf I and
Adalulf are the only ones who appear in the (very bad) index of the
book. I don't know where she got the daughter Elfstrude, the
son-in-law Hilduin of Tournai, or the illegitimate daughter Ricsinde
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
[snip]
>Bertin, and Adalf [sic], abbot of St. Bertin. Of the above
[snip]
A bad place to put a [sic], since I mistyped it. It should read
"Adaluf [sic]".
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
It's at best clumsy, then, that she represents only one female in the
relationships by linking the line of offspring with the vertical
connection to "Adalulf of Boulogne...m. ?".
Assuming "m." to be Tanner's abbreviation for "married", how can this
tabulation show that Balduin Blazo's mother was actually a concubine and
not the unknown wife of his father?
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> Thursday, 9 September, 2004
>
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Grazie mille [as they say in Susa] for the added discourse and
> sources re: Rozala/Susanna. A nominative anomaly this will likely
> remain. Given what we don't know precisely re: her birthplace, I
> will keep these notes for future reference.
I think the name Susanna and title regina can be accounted for in
several quite plausible ways, and I indicated at the end of my message
the gist of the explanation that I find most convincing - that this was
taken mainly to bolster the position of Flanders in a diplomatic contest
with Hugo Capet. There is a good deal of circumstantial evidence in
favour of this, but the matter has little or no genealogical import.
The received view of the local politics at the time was set out by Jean
Dunbabin in 'The Reign of Arnulf II, Count of Flanders, and its
Aftermath', _Francia_ 16 (1989) pp. 53-65. I don't agree with her, and
will eventually get round to arguing a different case, but this is
off-topic for SGM.
Peter Stewart