Fw: Query re: Sources & Godfrey of Boulogne
Leo van de Pas
Leon Vanderkinderen, La formation territoriale des principautes belges au
moyen age, tome 1 seconde edition,
Brussel 1902 pp 333aa
Erich Brandenburg, Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen, Leipzig 1935
Joshua Prawer, Histoire du royau,e de Jerusalem I, Paris 1969, pp 209,237,
152, 263ss, 299
Weyprecht Hugo Graf Rudt von Collenberg, The Rupenides, Hethumides and
Lusignans, Paris 1963
Cockayne XI p.479
J.Horace Round, The Counts of Boulogne as English Lords,
in : Studies in Peerage and Family History, New Impressions, London 1971, pp
147-180, zum Todesdatum Maria's von Schottland vide op.cit., p.163
Jonathan Riley Smith, The Feudal Nobility and the Kingdom of Jerusalem,
London 1973, Appendice A
Hans Eberhard Mayer, Etudes de l'histoire de Baudouin Ier
roi de Jerusalem, in : Melanges sur l'histoire du Toyaume latin de
Jerusalem, Paris 1984, pp 10-91 (Memoires de l'Academie des Inscriptions et
Belles-lettres, nouvelle serie, Tome V); idem, in Israel Exploration Journal
35, 1985, p.38 nimmt als todesdatum Gottfried's von Bouillon den 18-8-1100
(so schon J.R.Smith, vide supra)
Benjamin Guerard, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de Saint, Paris 1840 p229
(Collection des cartulaires de France tome III)
Abbe Daniel Haingare, Les charres de Saint-Bertin I (648-1240) Saint Omer,
1876, nr.71
Alexandre Bruel, Recueuil des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny V (1091-1110)
Paris 1894 nr.3984
Godefroy Kurth, Chartes de l'abbeye de Saint-Hubert-en Ardennes I, Brussel,
1903 nr.XXXVIII; XLV
E.Laurain, Cartulaire manceau de Marmoutier II, Laval 1945, p.61
Raymonde Foraville, Lettres Extravagantes" de Thomas Beckett archeveque de
Canterbury, nr.7 in : Melanges d'histoire de Moyen Age dedies a la memoire
de Louis Halphen, Paris 1951, pp 225-238
Going through the notes in Ancestral Roots line 158A
I find the following needs re-assessing :
J.Horace Round (1895, p256), citing Domesday refernces to property held by
Goisfrid, son of Count Eustace in right of his wife, daughter of Geoffrey de
Mandeville, says that "Dr. Liebermann asks whether Geoffrey's daughter was
not thus "the first wife, else unknown, of the future King of Jerusalem."
..........There was no second wife, there was no Goisfrid, King of
Jerusalem. It is a query and therefor we should not jump on it and accept
that crusader Godfrey of Bouillon (as he is known in The Netherlands) was
married to Beatrix de Mandeville.
......and by H.W.C. Davis (1913), who drew attention to the fact that
"Godfrey' of Jerusalem married Beatrice, daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville
and aunt of the first Earl of Essex.
......Suddenly it is "a fact" without noting on what this 'fact' is based.
That De Mandeville would have alienated property in order to give his
daughter in marriage to a bastard son of Count Eustace, lacking any
substantial prospects, is highly unlikely.
............Unlikely? but impossible? When another son of Eustace marries
the daughter of a King of Scotland, such an alliance may well have been
sought after.
The true identity of Geoffrey/Godfrey was recognised again by Miss Catherine
Morton, who has been in touch with DHK and with Sir Anthony Wagner on this
matter. (snip) It was there assumed that the confusion was ancient and that
Eustace's son, Godofred, was genuinely a Godfrey. It should be emphasized,
however, that actually the confusion is entirely modern due to the use of
"Godfrey" to transcribe a name which is etymologically "Geoffrey" (the
Germans use "Gottfried" both for the leader of the first crusade and for
Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou)
.........This Godefred/Godfrey was he the legitimate or the illegitmate son?
That is not answered here.
Wagner cites the views of Stephen Runciman, a historian of the crusades,
pointing out that crusader sources made no suggestion of a wife for
"Godfrey" and emphasizing his chastity. However, a wife and child left in
England would not necessarily have been known to such sources, nor was there
anything notable in a Crusader leaving a wife behind, though certainly
noteworthy if he brought a wife with him.
..............My question is "what sources"? And Godfrey was not just
another crusader, he was the leader of the crusade.
In which case it would have been known whether he was married or not.
In the later mediaeval period, "de Boulogne" (de Bolonia, de Bononia) became
"Boleyn" and still later "Bullen".
.........I see this, and the further unquoted part referring to Anne Boleyn,
as a flight of fancy. I cannot state on facts why I believe this, but Ann
Boleyn may have been derogatorily referred to as 'Nan Bullen' her
ancestors, as far as I know them, have always been Boleyn, whether she
descents from "much later with merchants from the Boullonnais".
Much remains to be done before fully documented unbroken pedigrees can be
established (for other families is meant, nothing to do with Godfrey), but
Godfrey's English wife and child can now be recognised. Marjorie Chinball,
ed. "Select documents of the English Lands of the Abbey of Bec, Camden, 3ser
73:25-26 (1951).
........This sounds final, but the question remains : Which Godfrey? The
legitimate or the illegitimate one.
I think the quest for this is far from over.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Query re: Godfrey of Boulogne
> Dear Don,
> In my database (based on ES III/4table 621) I have a different
> Godfrey. The famous crusader was not married to Beatrix de Mandeville. It
> was his illegitimate half-brother, also named Godfrey. Otherwise I have
your
> line completely the same.
> The famous Godfrey appears not to have married nor to have fathered
> children.
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Stone <DonS...@plantagenet.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 6:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Query re: Godfrey of Boulogne
>
>
> > William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> > >
> > > Posted to soc.genealogy.medieval at the request of Dana Cushing:
> > > ------------------------ (begin) ---------
> > > Dear Mr. Reitwiesner:
> > [snip]
> > > Currently I'm conducting research for my forthcoming book on the
> > > 'Eracles' text, the principal character of which is one Godefrey of
> > > Boloyne (meaning the county of Bologne, or the town Boulogne-sur-Mer).
> > > I am studying the Caxton edition which was dedicated to Edward IV.
> > > The object of my current work is to find whether or not
> > > Edward was somehow related to Godefrey -- his brother Eustace II
> > > married Mary of Scotland, and I expect there are later medieval
> > > connections but my expertise lies pre-1200 -- and trace the descent,
for
> > > an appendix to my translation.
> >
> > Actually, Edward IV is descended from Godfrey of Boulogne himself:
> >
> > Godfrey de Boulogne = Beatrice de Mandeville
> > William de Boulogne =
> > Faramus de Boulogne = Matilda
> > Enguerrand (Ingelram) de Fiennes = Sibyl de Boulogne
> > William de Fiennes = (1) Isabel, (2) Agnes de Dammartin
> > Enguerrand (Ingelram) de Fiennes =
> > William Fiennes = Blanche de Brienne
> > Sir Edmund de Mortimer = Margaret de Fiennes
> > Sir Roger de Mortimer = Joan de Geneville
> > Edmund de Mortimer = Elizabeth de Badlesmere
> > Sir Roger de Mortimer, K.G. = Philippa de Montacute
> > Edmund de Mortimer = Philippa, Countess of March
> > Roger de Mortimer = Eleanor de Holand
> > Richard, Earl of Cambridge = Anne de Mortimer
> > Richard Plantagenet, K.G. = Cecily de Neville
> > Edward IV
> >
> > The main authority for this is Frederick L. Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard,
> > Jr., and David Faris, _Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists_,
> > 7th edition, 1992, starting with line 158A and ending with line 225.
> >
> > Godfrey of Boulogne, Advocate of the Holy Sepulcher, became identified
> > fairly soon after his death with the legend of the swan knight in tales
> > propagated by various courtly poets and chroniclers. Sir Anthony Wagner
> > ("The Swan Badge and the Swan Knight," _Archaeologia 97 (1959): 127-138)
> > tells the fascinating story of how, beginning some 200 years after
> > Godfrey's death, many different families descending from him began using
> > swans in their coats of arms. This article is reprinted (without the
> > marvelous illustrations) in _Pedigree and Progress_. Ironically, Wagner
> > didn't realize that Godfrey is the same as Geoffrey; see the discussion
> > accompanying line 158A in Weis's _Ancestral Roots_.
> >
> > -- Don Stone
> >
> >
>
>
>
Don Stone
>
> In my database (based on ES III/4table 621) I have a different
> Godfrey. The famous crusader was not married to Beatrix de Mandeville. It
> was his illegitimate half-brother, also named Godfrey. Otherwise I have your
> line completely the same.
> The famous Godfrey appears not to have married nor to have fathered
> children.
Leo:
This has been discussed some earlier. See the archives for my posting
dated 3/22/99 with the subject heading "'Shakespeare In Love' and
Charlemagne", with responses from Todd Farmerie and Douglas Richardson.
-- Don