Cotton- St John - Langham

[Peter via]

good morrow!


I have a slight conundrum which i hope someone might be able to pierce!


Humphrey Cotton , born c 1500, was the son of Richard Cotton and Joan/Johanna St John


This Johanna St John was the daughter of Thomas St John, of Charing, and Alice LANGHAM


Richard Cotton,above, was the son of John Cotton of Ridware and Alice Langham,widow of her first husband Thomas St John of Charing.


Alice Langham is reputed to be a great great grand daughter of Sir john Hawkswood the mercenary.(1320-1394)


Genealogics does not seem to imply any Langham descendance for Sir john.


There is, however mention that Sir john Hawkswood,by his first marriage, had a daughter, Antiocha,who married Sir William de Coggeshall; They had 4 daughters and it is possible that one of these might (not may)have been married to a Langham


Can anyone assist?


Thanks
Peter (de Loriol)

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

The suggestion that Alice Langham was a descendant of Sir John Hawkwood the mercenary probably comes from a pedigree of the Langham family in Muskett's "Suffolk Manorial Families" 1:374. Alice's great-grandfather John Langham is shown there as having as his first wife Alice, daughter of Sir William Coggeshall and widow of Sir John Tyrell of Heron. Muskett cites Morant's Essex for this.

But R. E. Chester Waters in his "Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley", 1:309, says that Morant (at 2:406) is wrong in saying that Alice Coggeshall survived Sir John Tyrell and married John Langham. He points out that Sir John Tyrell survived his first wife Alice Coggeshall and was in turn survived by his second wife Catherine. So...the Hawkwood descent for the Langhams fails.

The Langham pedigree also shows that Alice Langham's second husband was not John Cotton of Ridware but instead John Cotton of Panfield, Essex. This makes sense, because Alice's daughter Johanna St. John married Richard, the son of John Cotton of Ridware. If Alice were Richard's mother, Richard and his wife would be half-siblings and certainly not permitted to marry.

[PDeloriol via]

Thank you John for this. the manor of Panfield was also owned by John
Cotton of Ridware. I will look into this. I am going to the College of Arms in
the next week to check on this. (They have an e-library that has captured
huge swathes of old documents.)
Peter


In a message dated 17/12/2015 19:35:05 GMT Standard Time,

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[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Upon further checking, it seems that Richard Cotton who married Johanna St. John was the brother of John Cotton who was the second husband of Alice Langham - not his son as stated in the original post. This is indicated by an altar tomb of the Cottons in the church of Hamstall Ridware, described here (see p. 2):
https://archive.org/details/hamstallridware00socigoog

The younger John Cotton was "of Panfield" by virtue of his marriage with Alice Langham, the heiress of that estate. So Richard's wife Johanna St. John was his sister-in-law's daughter by her first marriage - so, Richard's step-niece, I guess? Certainly better than being step-siblings....

[colinj...@gmail.com]

I have been watching the St John story emerge with interest, and in particular as to whether one of the Edward St Johns (descended from the St John family of Basing) can be linked to the St John family of Charing, Kent.
Let me start with what I know and then see whether any of this helps any other researcher.

I am descended from Joanna St John who married Richard Cotton of Hamstall Ridware, Staffordshire.

Richard had been married twice before (to Alice Savage and Joan Brereton) and so was a bit older than Joanna. Starting from the ages of the children I would guess Joanna's birth to be c 1480, and Richard c 1455.

Joanna was the daughter of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent. I have guessed his birth at c 1457. From Soc Gen Med, I believe that Thomas's wife was called Alice Langham, daughter of Richard Langham.

Perhaps just a coincidence that the surname Langham is very close to that of the Lageham St John family.

Edward Hasted in his "History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent Vol 7, pub by W Bristow, Canterbury 1798, states

Burleigh or Burley Manor came into the possession of the st John Family. Heraldic device "Argent, a mullet sable, on a Chief Gules three mullets peirced of the first". The manor left the st John family with the marriage of Aris st John, d of William St John to Humphrey Barrey.

A bit vague and no dates. But St John of Burleigh Manor is much more precise than St John of Charing. Is anyone able to search Pipe Roll info looking for Burleigh Manor, Kent?

I have a copy of a Canterbury Prerogative will dated 22/12/1457, for Edward St John of Charing. Although I can read Latin the script is all but illegible. If this Edward is the father of Thomas then his birth could be c 1430, if a grandfather then about 1405. If anyone knows of any translation service for these early Canterbury wills, I would be very grateful to use the service and share the results with this group.

If a grandfather, then it anchors an Edward St John to Charing/Burleigh at a date which is getting close to the range of dates covered in recent discussions.

Any views?

Colin