Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster

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Douglas Richardson

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Aug 14, 2003, 2:35:02 AM8/14/03
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Dear Newsgroup ~

In Genealogists' Magazine, 20 (1982): 335-340, John Carmi Parsons
presented his "hypothesis" that Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh,
Earl of Ulster, was the daughter of Arnould III, Count of Guines
(living 1282), by his wife, Alix de Coucy.

The evidence he cites is a bit scanty. He states that Pere Anselme
indicates that Count Arnould III had a daughter who is stated to have
married a "lord in Ireland." However, Parsons fails to produce any
evidence which would indicate that the "lord in Ireland" was actually
Richard de Burgh. He mentions that Richard de Burgh was styled
"queen's kinsman" by Queen Eleanor of Castile. He supposes that this
means that Richard's wife was related to the Queen. However, the
Queen had opportunity to refer to Margaret as her kinswoman on more
than one occasion (including the record in question) and failed to do
so. More telling, Parsons appears to have overlooked the reference
in which King Edward I referred to Richard de Burgh as his own
"kinsman." The twin references to Richard de Burgh as "queen's
kinsman" and "king's kinsman" suggest that Richard is the one with the
ancestral tie to the English royal family, not his wife, Margaret.

Parsons argues that Richard de Burgh's marriage to his wife, Margaret,
has all the earmarks of an marriage arranged by Queen Eleanor of
Castile. He bases this on his analysis of other marriages known to
have been arranged by Queen Eleanor. While the pattern of Richard
and Margaret's marriage may be similar to other matches arranged by
the Queen for her kinswomen, Parsons is unable to produce any actual
evidence that Queen Eleanor was involved in the arrangements of this
marriage. He does show that Queen Eleanor knew both parties and that
she granted them lands following their marriage.

As for the original source for the statement that Count Arnold III had
a daughter married to a "lord in Ireland," this can be traced back
earlier than Pere Anselme. This information evidently first appeared
in the book, Histoire Genealogique des Maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de
Gand, et de Coucy, by Andre Duchesne, published in 1631. This book is
available on the gallica website at:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/

On page 175, Duchesne lists various daughters of Count Arnould III of
Guines. He gives the following information regarding the eldest
daughter:

"N. .... de Guines aisnee des filles eut pour mary un Seigneur du
pays d'Irlande, comme on lit dans le Livre du Lignage de Dreux & de
Coucy, lequel toutefos n'exprime par leur noms."

In the margin, he refers the reader to "Preuves pg. 302," which
doesn't appear to be page 302 in this work.

In the section of the book dealing with the Coucy and Dreux families,
he mentions Enguerrand de Coucy, husband of King Edward III's
daughter, Isabel of England. Enguerrand de Coucy was
great-great-grandson in the male line from Arnould III, Count of
Guines, his branch of the family having adopted the surname Coucy from
Arnould III's wife, Alix de Coucy. Presumably there is some mention
of Enguerrand de Coucy's life history recorded by Froissart or someone
else which indicates that his great-grandfather had a sister married
to a "lord in Ireland." If Duchesne covers this piece of evidence, I
didn't find a reference to anything like this in the cursory search I
made of the section on the Coucy family. Duchesne does mention
Froissart, so he was clearly familiar with this man's work.

If someone has the time and patience to go through the Duchesne book
online, perhaps they can discover the place in the book in which the
actual evidence is cited that Count Arnould III had a daughter married
to a "lord in Ireland." Also, perhaps they can find the source named
"Preuves" which Duchesne mentions in the margin in page 175.

In summary, the evidence is extremely weak that Richard de Burgh's
wife, Margaret, was the daughter of Arnould III, Count of Guines.
This still remains an unproven hypothesis. To quote Mr. Parsons, we
"must await certain proof." This matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

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Aug 23, 2003, 1:33:55 AM8/23/03
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

New evidence that Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster
(died 1326) was possibly a daughter of Arnould III, Count of Guines,
is indicated by the fact that Jean II, King of France (died 1364),
referred to Margaret's grandson, David II de Brus, King of Scotland
(died 1371) as his "kinsman" [Reference: T. Rymer, Foedera 6 (1727):
260-262, 264-265].

Since King Jean II's ancestry entirely consists of Continental royalty
and nobility, it seems a good bet that King David II de Brus'
grandmother, Margaret de Burgh, was of Continental origin just as John
Carmi Parsons suggested in his article in the Genealogists' Magazine,
20 (1982): 335-340. Furthermore, if John Carmi Parsons is correct
that Margaret de Burgh was the daughter of Arnould III, Count of
Guines, it would make King Jean II of France related to King David II
de Brus as follows:

Raoul de Coucy, Sire of Coucy (died 1191)
________________/____________________
/ /
Yolande de Coucy Enguerrand de Coucy
= Robert II, Count of Dreux /
/ /
Robert III, Count of Dreux Alix de Coucy
/ = Arnould III, Count of Guines
/ /
Yolande Dreux Margaret de Guines
=Hugh IV, Duke of Burgundy =Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster
/ /
Robert II, Duke of Burgundy Elizabeth de Burgh
/ =Robert I de Brus, King of
Scotland
/ /
Jeanne of Burgundy David II de Brus, King of Scotland
= Philippe VI, King of France
/
Jean II, King of France

While King Jean II's reference to King David II of Scotland as his
"kinsman" doesn't prove that King David II's great-grandmother was a
Coucy, given that King Jean is a known Coucy descendant, it does
indicate that a Coucy-Guines descent is possible for King David II.
The kinship proposed above would be in the 5th and 6th degrees of
kindred (or 4th cousins, once removed) between the two kings.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03081...@posting.google.com>...

The...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 23, 2003, 10:13:04 AM8/23/03
to
Saturday, 23 August, 2003

Dear Douglas, et al.,

Thanks for that very good post.

This identification of David II, King of Scots as
'kinsman' by Jean II, King of France provides good support
for J. C. Parsons' theory that Margaret/Marguerite, wife
of Richard de Burgh, was the daughter of Arnold III of
Guines. Further, your chart showing the two kings as
4th cousins (1x removed) is accurate, based on this
identification.

The ancestry of Jean II of France is quite helpful in
supporting this identification, as it is well-known
through his great-great grandparents, and provides no
evidence of another possible link outside the Dreux,
de Coucy and de St. Valery families. I have reviewed
my records concerning the continental descendants of
the daughters of Henry of Scotland, Earl of Northumberland
and Huntingdon (d. 1152) - gggg grandfather of King David
II - and find no descents to Jean II of France. With the
exception of the notable gap in David II's Carrick ancestry
(his great-grandmother, wife of Neil, Earl of Carrick is
unknown) - which is most likely a Scots connection - there
is no other avenue for a connection between the two kings
not involving Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh.

I have appended below an for Jean II of France for
general information and review (an earlier post in this
thread gave the AT for David II of Scots). The ancestry
of Jean II is quite interesting, esp. in noting that all
four grandparents (Charles of Valois, Marguerite of
Naples, Robert II of Burgundy and Agnes of France) were
male-line Capetians. The rubber stamp for dispensations
was evidently in heavy use: Charles of Valois and
Marguerite of Naples were 2nd cousins; and Jean II's
parents, Philip VI of France and Jeanne of Burgundy, were
1st cousins once removed (3rd & 2nd degree of
consanguinity). If the repeats in his ancestry are
problematic, I would ask, 'dispensa mea'.

Thanks again; yet another great (and helpful) find.

Cheers,

John *

___________________


ANCESTRY OF JEAN II OF FRANCE

1 Jean II of France. Born on 16 Apr 1319.
Jean died in London (prisoner following Battle of Poitiers)
on 8 Apr 1364, he was 44.
Occupation: King of France 1350-1364.


2 Philip VI of France. Born in 1293.
Philip VI died on 22 Aug 1350, he was 57.
Occupation: King of France 1328-1350.

first of the Valois Kings of France

In 1313 when Philip VI was 20, he married Jeanne of Burgundy.

3 Jeanne of Burgundy. Born in 1293.
Jeanne died in Paris in 1348, she was 55.


4 Charles of Valois.
Charles died in Nogent-le-Roy, France bef 17 Dec 1325,
he was 55. Born on 12 Mar 1270.
Buried in St.-Jacques, Paris.
Occupation: Count of Valois.

Count of Valois, later of Anjou and Maine
French & Papal candidate for King of Aragon during
anti-Aragonese crusade of 1285 (Failed)


On 16 Aug 1290 when Charles was 20, he married Margaret
of Naples, in Corbeil.

5 Margaret of Naples. Born in 1273.
Margaret died on 31 Dec 1299, she was 26.
Buried in St.-Jacques, Paris.
Occupation: Countess of Anjou and Maine.

6 Robert II of Burgundy. Born in 1248.
Robert II died on 21 Mar 1305, he was 57.
Occupation: Duke of Burgundy.

Robert II married Agnes of France.

7 Agnes of France. Born in 1260.
Agnes died in 1327, she was 67.


8 Philip III 'le Hardi' of France.
Born on 1 May 1245 in Poissy, France.
Philip III 'le Hardi' died in Perpignan, France on 5
Oct 1285, he was 40.
Occupation: King of France 1270-1285.

King of France

he m. lstly Isabella of Aragon,
2ndly Marie of Brabant

On 6 Jul 1262 when Philip III 'le Hardi' was 17, he
married Isabella of Aragon, in Clermont, Auvergne.

9 Isabella of Aragon. Born ca 1247.
Isabella died in Cosenza, Italy on 28 Jan 1270,
she was 23.

1st wife

10 Charles II 'of Salerno' of Naples. Charles II
died on 5 May 1309 in Naples.
Occupation: King of Naples 1285-1309.

King of Sicily
also Duke of Apulia, and count of Provence, Anjou
and Maine (in France)

ceded Anjou and Maine to his son-in-law Charles of
Valois, 1290

In 1270 Charles II 'of Salerno' married Maria of Hungary.

11 Maria of Hungary. Maria died on 25 Mar 1323 in Naples.

12 Hugh IV of Burgundy. Born on 9 Mar 1212.
Hugh IV died on 27 Oct 1272, he was 60.
Occupation: Duke of Burgundy 1218-1272.

Crusader, 1240, 1248


ca 1229 when Hugh IV was 16, he married Yolande de Dreux.

13 Yolande de Dreux.
Yolande died on 30 Oct 1248.
Occupation: Countess of Auxonne.

2nd wife

14 Louis IX (St. Louis) of France.
Louis IX died in Tunis, Africa (on Crusade) on 25
Aug 1270, he was 56. Born on 25 Apr 1214.
Occupation: King of France 1226-1270.

On 27 May 1234 when Louis IX (St. Louis) was 20, he
married Margaret of Provence.

15 Margaret of Provence. Born ca 1221.
Margaret died in Paris on 21 Dec 1295, she was 74.
Buried in St-Denis.


16 Louis IX (St. Louis) of France.
Louis IX died in Tunis, Africa (on Crusade) on 25
Aug 1270, he was 56. Born on 25 Apr 1214.
Occupation: King of France 1226-1270.

[see #14 above]


17 Margaret of Provence. Born ca 1221.
Margaret died in Paris on 21 Dec 1295, she was 74.
Buried in St-Denis.

[ see # 15 above]

18 Jaime (James) 'el Conquistador' of Aragon.
Born ca 1208.
Jaime died in Valencia, Aragon on 27 Jun 1276, he was 68.
Occupation: King of Aragon 1213-1276.

given into custody of Simon de Montfort at Carcassonne,
ca 1210; returned to Catalonia in 1214, under
custodianship of the Templars at Monzon [uncle Sancho,
regent] by the testament of his mother (1209)
knighted Feb 1221, and married (1stly) to Leonor of Castile


On 8 Sep 1235 when Jaime (James) 'el Conquistador' was 27,
he married Yolande of Hungary, in Barcelona, Catalonia.

19 Yolande of Hungary.
Yolande died on 12 Oct 1251 in Huesca, Aragon.

20 Charles of Anjou.
Charles died on 7 Jan 1284, he was 57.
Born in 1227 (posthumous).
Occupation: King of Naples (Sicily) 1265 - 1285.

Count of Anjou and Maine
accompanied his brother King Louis on crusade from
Aigues-Mortes, 25 Aug 1248
commander of the left wing of the French army at
Mansurah (2nd battle), 11 Feb 1250
given title as King of Sicily and papal mandate against
the Hohenstaufen empire;
defeated and slew Manfred at Benevento,
26 Feb 1265/6
captured and executed Conradin, 1268

plans against the Byzantine Empire thwarted by the
rebellion of the 'Sicilian Vespers', 30 Mar 1282

On 31 Jan 1246 when Charles was 19, he married Beatrice
of Provence.

21 Beatrice of Provence. Born in 1231.
Beatrice died on 23 Sep 1267, she was 36.
Occupation: Countess of Provence.

youngest sister; designated heiress of Provence

22 Stephen V of Hungary.
Stephen V died in 1272.
Occupation: King of Hungary 1270-1272.

Stephen V married Elizabeth of the Kumans.

23 Elizabeth of the Kumans.

24 Eudes III of Burgundy. Born in 1166.
Eudes III died on 6 Jul 1218, he was 52.
Occupation: Duke of Burgundy 1193-1218.

In 1199 when Eudes III was 33, he married Alix de Vergy.

25 Alix de Vergy. Alix died on 8 Mar 1250.

26 Robert III de Dreux. Born in 1185.
Robert III died on 3 Mar 1233, he was 48.
Occupation: Count of Dreux.

Count of Dreux

In regard to the English lands of Aenor de St. Valery
his wife, Keats-Rohan
wrote:
' Robert consistently supported Philip Augustus against
King John, but made his peace with Henry III in 1217.
He became Count of Dress [sic] in 1218 and in February
1219 was awarded the lands that Thomas of St. Valery
had held in England. By the end of 1226, as he had
again chosen to side with France, Henry III seized all
his English lands.'

King Henry III granted these lands to his brother
Richard, Earl of Cornwall in 1227

Robert III married Aenor de St. Valery.

27 Aenor de St. Valery.
Aenor died aft 15 Nov 1250.

heiress of her father

28 Louis VIII of France. Born on 5 Sep 1187.
Louis VIII died in Montpensier on 8 Nov 1226, he was 39.
Occupation: King of France 1223-1226.

On 23 May 1200 when Louis VIII was 12, he married Blanche
of Castile, in Abbey of Port-Mort, Normandy.

29 Blanche of Castile. Born on 4 Mar 1188 in castle
of Palencia, Castile.
Blanche died in Melun on 26 Nov 1252, she was 64.

brought the county of Evreux as her dowry (maritagium),
through the arrangement between John of England and
Amauri de Montfort, former Count of Evreux (later Earl
of Gloucester - see #8656)

name originally Blanca (Castilian), changed to Blanche due
to her marriage in France

30 Ramon-Berengar IV of Provence. Born in 1198.
Ramon-Berengar IV died on 19 Aug 1245, he was 47.
Occupation: Count of Provence.

also styled Ramon Berengar IV of Provence (evidently
not including the brother of Alfonso II of
Aragon/Alfons I of Provence in the list of Counts
of Provence)

In Dec 1220 when Ramon-Berengar IV was 22, he
married Beatrice of Savoy.

31 Beatrice of Savoy. Born in 1198.
Beatrice died in Dec 1266, she was 68.


32 Louis VIII of France. Born on 5 Sep 1187.
Louis VIII died in Montpensier on 8 Nov 1226, he was 39.
Occupation: King of France 1223-1226.

On 23 May 1200 when Louis VIII was 12, he married Blanche
of Castile, in Abbey of Port-Mort, Normandy.

33 Blanche of Castile. Born on 4 Mar 1188 in castle
of Palencia, Castile.
Blanche died in Melun on 26 Nov 1252, she was 64.

brought the county of Evreux as her dowry
(maritagium), through the arrangement between John of
England and Amauri de Montfort, former Count of Evreux
(later Earl of Gloucester - see #8656)

name originally Blanca (Castilian), changed to Blanche due
to her marriage in France

34 Ramon-Berengar IV of Provence. Born in 1198.
Ramon-Berengar IV died on 19 Aug 1245, he was 47.
Occupation: Count of Provence.

also styled Ramon Berengar IV of Provence (evidently
not including the brother of Alfonso II of
Aragon/Alfons I of Provence in the list of Counts
of Provence)

In Dec 1220 when Ramon-Berengar IV was 22, he
married Beatrice of Savoy.

35 Beatrice of Savoy. Born in 1198.
Beatrice died in Dec 1266, she was 68.

36 Pedro II 'el Catolico' of Aragon.
Pedro II died on 12 Sep 1213 in Battle of Muret.
Occupation: King of Aragon and count of Catalonia
1196-1213.

Pere I, Count of Catalonia
crowned King of Aragon at Rome, 1204
joined Alfonso VIII of Castile, defeating Almohads at
Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa (1212)
maintained suzerainty over Carcassonne (accepted Simon
de Montfort's fealty in 1209 after its fall in
Albigensian crusade)
killed in battle of Muret against Simon de Montfort, 1213

In 1204 Pedro II 'el Catolico' married Marie of Montpellier.

37 Marie of Montpellier. Born in 1182.
Marie died in Rome on 21 Apr 1213, she was 31.
Buried in Cathedral of St. Peter, Rome.

heiress of Montpellier

38 Andrew II of Hungary.
Andrew II died in 1235.
Occupation: King of Hungary 1201-1235.

King of Hungary

he m. lstly Gertrude of Meran,
2ndly Yolande de Courtenay

Andrew II married Yolande of Courtenay.

39 Yolande of Courtenay.

40 Louis VIII of France. Born on 5 Sep 1187.
Louis VIII died in Montpensier on 8 Nov 1226, he was 39.
Occupation: King of France 1223-1226.

On 23 May 1200 when Louis VIII was 12, he married Blanche
of Castile, in Abbey of Port-Mort, Normandy.

41 Blanche of Castile.
Born on 4 Mar 1188 in castle of Palencia, Castile.
Blanche died in Melun on 26 Nov 1252, she was 64.

brought the county of Evreux as her dowry (maritagium),
through the arrangement between John of England and
Amauri de Montfort, former Count of Evreux (later Earl
of Gloucester - see #8656)

name originally Blanca (Castilian), changed to Blanche
due to her marriage in France

42 Ramon-Berengar IV of Provence. Born in 1198.
Ramon-Berengar IV died on 19 Aug 1245, he was 47.
Occupation: Count of Provence.

also styled Ramon Berengar IV of Provence (evidently
not including the brother of Alfonso II of
Aragon/Alfons I of Provence in the list of Counts
of Provence)

In Dec 1220 when Ramon-Berengar IV was 22, he
married Beatrice of Savoy.

43 Beatrice of Savoy. Born in 1198.
Beatrice died in Dec 1266, she was 68.

44 Bela IV of Hungary. Bela IV died on 3 May 1270.
Occupation: King of Hungary 1235-1270.

In 1218 Bela IV married Maria Lascaris.

45 Maria Lascaris. Maria died in 1270.

46 Kuthen of the Kumans.
Occupation: Khan of the Kumans.

48 Hugh III of Burgundy.
Hugh III died on 25 Aug 1192 in Tyre, Palestine
(on crusade).
Occupation: Duke of Burgundy 1162-1192.

divorced from first wife Adelaide (or Alix), 1183
m. 2ndly Beatrix d'Albon, Dauphine of Vienne

follower of Philip of France in the Third Crusade
commander of the French forces at the battle of Arsuf,
7 Sept 1191

bef 1166 Hugh III married Alix of Lorraine.

49 Alix of Lorraine.

1st wife
married before 1170 according to P. Theroff (shown here
as 1166 or before: son Eudes born in 1166)
divorced 1183

50 Hugh de Vergy.
Hugh died in 1205.
Occupation: seigneur de Vergy.

Hugh married Gille de Trainel.

51 Gille de Trainel. Gille died aft 1224.

52 Robert II of Dreux. Born ca 1154.
Robert II died on 28 Dec 1218, he was 64.
Occupation: Count of Dreux 1188-1218.

Count of Dreux and Braine

participant in Third Crusade (at Acre, 1191); fought for
King Philip at Bouvines, 1214

In 1184 when Robert II was 30, he married Yolande de Coucy.

53 Yolande de Coucy. Born ca 1168.
Yolande died on 18 Mar 1221, she was 53.

2nd wife

54 Thomas de St. Valery. Thomas died in 1219.

of Tetbury, co. Glocs., Studley, co. Bucks., and Beckley
and Horton, co. Oxon

paid a fine for relief re: his father's lands in
Beckley and Horton, 1191/2

'deprived of his estates before 1197' [C. Phillips,
citing VCH Gloucestershire 11: 264]

evidently opted for France and retained French lands
(or had same restored) following the Pacification of 1204.

fought at the Battle of Bouvines, 1214

Returned to the peace of King John and restored to
his English lands, 1215

Thomas married Adela de Ponthieu.

55 Adela de Ponthieu. Adela died in 1241.

56 Philip II 'Augustus' of France.
Born on 22 Aug 1165.
Philip II 'Augustus' died in 1223, he was 57.
Occupation: King of France 1180-1223.

King of France

actual name was 'Philippe Auguste' [born in August]
leader of the Third Crusade (1190-1192) with Richard
of England and the Emperor Frederick 'Barbarossa'

he m. lstly Isabella of Flanders (Hainaut),
2ndly Ingeborg of Denmark (repudiated),
3rdly Agnes of Meran (uncanonical/not recognized
by Rome)

ca 1184 when Philip II 'Augustus' was 18, he married
Isabel of Flanders.

57 Isabel of Flanders. Born ca 1170.
Isabel died in 1190, she was 20.

1st wife
also called Isabel (Isabeau) of Hainault

the county of Artois was her dowry

58 Alfonso VIII of Castile. Born abt 1155.
Alfonso VIII died in Burgos, Castile on 6 Oct 1214,
he was 59. Buried in Monastery of Las Huelgas, Castile.
Occupation: King of Castile ca 1158-1214.

defeated the Almohads at Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa,
1214 in alliance with Peter (Pere) II of Aragon

In Sep 1177 when Alfonso VIII was 22, he married Eleanor
of England, in Tarragona.

59 Eleanor of England.
Born on 13 Oct 1162 in Domfront, Normandy.
Eleanor died in Burgos, Castile on 31 Oct 1214,
she was 52. Buried in Las Huelgas.

2nd daughter

60 Alfons II of Provence.
Occupation: Count of Provence 1196-1209.

Count of Forcalquier 1208-1209

In 1193 Alfons II married Gersinde of Sabran.

61 Gersinde of Sabran.

heiress of Forcalquier

62 Thomas I of Savoy.
Born on 20 May 1178 in Carbonnieres, Savoy [now France].
Thomas I died in Aosta, Savoy on 1 Mar 1232, he was 53.
Buried in St-Michel de la Cluse, Aosta.
Occupation: Count of Savoy 1188-1233.

In May 1195 when Thomas I was 16, he married Margaret
of Geneva.

63 Margaret of Geneva. Born ca 1180.
Margaret died aft 1255, she was 75.

identified in some older chronicles as Beatrice (note:
her sister named Beatrice)

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