Gascoigne of Gawthorpe - before the Chief Justice

[Matt Tompkins]

Yesterday at the International Medieval Congress in Leeds I heard a paper entitled 'The Foundation of the Gascoigne Dynasty in 14th-Century England'. It was given by a PhD student at York whose thesis 'examines the genealogy of the Gascoigne family and its rise from obscurity in the Fourteenth Century to the loss of its principle landholding; Gawthorpe, in 1567'.

He said the family's ancestry cannot be reliably traced back before William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (husband of Agnes Frank and father of William Gascoigne, the chief justice of the King's Bench), who he thought was born about 1309 and died, IIRC, in the 1380s. The earlier generations found in visitation pedigrees and other early modern sources derive ultimately (he said) from the genealogical claims of a 17th-century Gascoigne and cannot be substantiated from contemporary records.

In fact he said he could discover no contemporary reference to any generation of the family before the lord chief justice's father. This surprised me a little - could a family of mid-14C Yorkshire gentry really have no traceable antecedents?

I gather from the archives that several list members, notably John Watson, have worked on this family - does anyone know of contemporary references to the family before the chief justice's generation?

Matt Tompkins

[Renia]

On 11/07/2014 10:44, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> Yesterday at the International Medieval Congress in Leeds I heard a
> paper entitled 'The Foundation of the Gascoigne Dynasty in
> 14th-Century England'. It was given by a PhD student at York whose
> thesis 'examines the genealogy of the Gascoigne family and its rise
> from obscurity in the Fourteenth Century to the loss of its principle
> landholding; Gawthorpe, in 1567'.
>
> He said the family's ancestry cannot be reliably traced back before
> William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (husband of Agnes Frank and father of
> William Gascoigne, the chief justice of the King's Bench), who he
> thought was born about 1309 and died, IIRC, in the 1380s. The
> earlier generations found in visitation pedigrees and other early
> modern sources derive ultimately (he said) from the genealogical
> claims of a 17th-century Gascoigne and cannot be substantiated from
> contemporary records.
>
> In fact he said he could discover no contemporary reference to any
> generation of the family before the lord chief justice's father.
> This surprised me a little - could a family of mid-14C Yorkshire
> gentry really have no traceable antecedents?

Yes! My Pallisers appear in Yorkshire in the mid-14th century but there
is no trace of them before that. I am led to presume that they came from
elsewhere, say Spain or France. Which is quite possibly the same for the
Gascoignes.

[Matt Tompkins]

There is no doubt that a progenitor of the Yorkshire Gascoignes came from France, from Gascony in fact, as the name means Gascon. However there is no reason to think they had only just arrived shortly before the birth of William Gascoigne, the chief justice, in c.1350 - the surname is fairly common in English records from c1200 onwards (see the examples listed in Reaney and Wilson's Dictionary of English Surnames. I think it more likely that the family had been in England for at least a generation or two, probably several, before the chief justice's father.

No doubt the judge's wealth and social position were the result of a meteoric rise in just a generation or two, principally his own, but his father seems to have owned a manor, and even if his grandfather had been a few rungs further down the social ladder, say a wealthy peasant, you'd still expect some appearances in the record. A rise from the very lowest levels of society to chief justice of England in just two generations would be remarkable.

Matt

[John Watson]

Dear Matt,

The PhD student was correct. I cannot find a single reference to any Gascoignes in Yorkshire before the mid-fourteenth century, and believe me I have looked long and hard.

Wiliam Gascoigne who married Agnes Franke and was father of the celebrated Chief Justice is the first of the name to occur in contemporary documents. He had several grants of land in the 1350's and 60's from John de Lisle of Rougemont and Robert de Lisle his son. John de Lisle spent the greater part of his life (1318-55) fighting in the French wars, particularly in Gascony. Some time ago I thought it possible that the first William Gascoigne was a Gascon retainer of John de Lisle, or even possibly an illegitimate son, who he rewarded with grants of land in Yorkshire. This is just a theory with no proof. A man who in England was called William the Gascon, was no doubt called something completely different in Gascony.

Best regards,

John

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

On Friday, 11 July 2014 10:44:18 UTC+1, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> Yesterday at the International Medieval Congress in Leeds I heard a paper entitled 'The Foundation of the Gascoigne Dynasty in 14th-Century England'. It was given by a PhD student at York whose thesis 'examines the genealogy of the Gascoigne family and its rise from obscurity in the Fourteenth Century to the loss of its principle landholding; Gawthorpe, in 1567'.
>
> He said the family's ancestry cannot be reliably traced back before William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (husband of Agnes Frank and father of William Gascoigne, the chief justice of the King's Bench), who he thought was born about 1309 and died, IIRC, in the 1380s. The earlier generations found in visitation pedigrees and other early modern sources derive ultimately (he said) from the genealogical claims of a 17th-century Gascoigne and cannot be substantiated from contemporary records.
>
> In fact he said he could discover no contemporary reference to any generation of the family before the lord chief justice's father. This surprised me a little - could a family of mid-14C Yorkshire gentry really have no traceable antecedents?
>
> I gather from the archives that several list members, notably John Watson, have worked on this family - does anyone know of contemporary references to the family before the chief justice's generation?
>

________________________________________
From: John Watson [Watso...@gmail.com]
Sent: 11 July 2014 16:17

> Dear Matt,
>
> The PhD student was correct. I cannot find a single reference to any Gascoignes in Yorkshire before the mid-fourteenth century, and believe me I have looked long and hard.
>
> Wiliam Gascoigne who married Agnes Franke and was father of the celebrated Chief Justice is the first of the name to occur in contemporary documents. He had several grants of land in the 1350's and 60's from John de Lisle of Rougemont and Robert de Lisle his son. John de Lisle spent the greater part of his life (1318-55) fighting in the French wars, particularly in Gascony. Some time ago I thought it possible that the first William Gascoigne was a Gascon retainer of John de Lisle, or even possibly an illegitimate son, who he rewarded with grants of land in Yorkshire. This is just a theory with no proof. A man who in England was called William the Gascon, was no doubt called something completely different in Gascony.
>
> Best regards,
> John
>

Thanks very much, John. Very interesting that William Gascoigne pere received these grants from the Lisles, and that the Lisles had been active in Gascony. I wonder if the people at the Gascon Rolls Project would be able to cast any light on this.

As I recall from the paper yesterday, the 17th-century Gascoigne who wrote up the family legends believed it was the chief justice's grandfather who acquired Gawthorpe, by marriage to an heiress, Matilda Gawthorpe (whose hand was apparently bestowed on him by her grateful father after Gascoigne saved her from drowning by dragging her out of a fishpond by her hair). Whether the story is true, I wouldn't like to say, but it does show that in the 17th century the family believed that they had been local landowners in Yorkshire for at least a couple of generations before the chief justice.

Matt Tompkins

[Renia]

Unless they were high-up retainers from abroad who decided to settle in
England.

[al...@mindspring.com]

Hi Matt

Great grandfather but yes that is what the pedigrees say:

William chief justice
son of William m. Agnes Frank
son of William m. Elizabeth Bolton
son of william m. Maud Gawthorpe

Foster, Joseph, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire, (1874). Flower, Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 133-139 (Gaskon pedigree).

Doug Smith

[John Watson]

Dear Doug,

Be very careful with pedigrees from Foster. There are some completely fictitious pedigrees in that volume, for instance the two pedigrees of Babthorpe. There is no contemporary evidence whatsoever that any of the Gascoignes or their wives in the first two generations existed. If they did exist, then they didn't buy, sell or give away land, appear in court cases, commit any crimes, give any land to monastic houses, join any wars, have any kind of employment, or in any way bring themselves to the notice of the authorities.

Regards,
John

[Colin Withers]

On 11/07/2014 18:04, John Watson wrote:
> There is no contemporary evidence whatsoever that any of the
> Gascoignes or their wives in the first two generations existed. If
> they did exist, then they didn't buy, sell or give away land, appear
> in court cases, commit any crimes, give any land to monastic houses,
> join any wars, have any kind of employment, or in any way bring
> themselves to the notice of the authorities.

They didn't leave any wills either. The earliest in the courts of York
begin in 1418, and are fairly regular after that date, but not one from
the 14th century or earlier. I have checked all the unpublished medieval
wills indexes too, with the same result.

Wibs




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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[al...@mindspring.com]

Agreed

It is why I said that's what the pedigrees say. The relationship to reality .....

Doug

[gen-me...@rootsweb.com]

On 11/07/2014 18:04, John Watson wrote:

> There is no contemporary evidence whatsoever that any of the
> Gascoignes or their wives in the first two generations existed. If
> they did exist, then they didn't buy, sell or give away land, appear
> in court cases, commit any crimes, give any land to monastic houses,
> join any wars, have any kind of employment, or in any way bring
> themselves to the notice of the authorities.

From: Colin Withers
Sent: 11 July 2014 18:24
> They didn't leave any wills either. The earliest in the courts of York
begin in 1418, and are fairly regular after that date, but not one from
the 14th century or earlier. I have checked all the unpublished medieval
wills indexes too, with the same result.
>

________________________________________
It does sound as though the William Gascoigne who fathered the chief justice cannot have been a native of Yorkshire - either that or he had risen from the very lowest, unrecorded levels of Yorkshire society, which seems a little unlikely. It might be worth looking for his origins elsewhere in England - he might have been an immigrant from Gascony, but it is equally likely that his ancestors had been in England for several generations (I'll comment in a moment on the possibility that he was a Gascon retainer of John Lisle of Rougemont). There seems to have been a minor gentry or franklin family of Gascoignes holding of the Beauchamps in Compton Dundon in Somerset in the 1340s, for example (CIPM viii, 1336-47, pp. 322, 325). It might also be productive to look in the areas where the Lisles had estates - Cambs, Herts and Beds principally - or the Vavasours (see below for why).

I've found a couple of references to a William Gascoigne in mid-14C Yorkshire IPMs who is probably our man, and which cast some interesting light on his status and origins.

CIPM x (1352-61), p. 290, the assignment of dower in the manor of Harewode (which contained Gawthorpe) to Maud, widow of John de Lisle of Rougemont, on 6 April 1356, was made in the presence of William Fraunk of Alwoodley, Nicholas de Harewod, William Gascoigne and Robert de Ecclesley. These four would have been present as representatives of John's son and heir Robert de Lisle or of Maud herself, suggesting that William Gascoigne was a fairly senior Lisle adviser or retainer.

CIPM x (1352-61), p. 120, the proof of age of Mauger Vavasour, held just after Midsummer 1353, which reported that he had been born at Denton, near Harewood in Yorkshire, in June 1332; two of the witnesses were William Fraunk, aged 48 and more, who in 1332 had been a servant of Mauger's father, Thomas Vavasour of Denton, and William Gascoigne, aged 44 and more, who in 1332 was dwelling at Denton and had lands etc there. This is surely our man, the husband of Agnes Frank, and places him in Denton, not Gawthorpe (though not far from there), in 1332, aged 23 (and so born c. 1309). John de Lisle's career in Gascony did not begin until later in the 1330s, so it must be very unlikely that William Gascoigne was a Gascon retainer of his.

Anyway, Chris Bovis at York will be working on this problem full-time for the next couple of years, so hopefully everything will be revealed one day soon.

Matt

[D. Spencer Hines]

Part of the indeed quite justifiable fascination here, in addition of course
to the linkage to Prince William and Kate, must stem from the alliterative,
mnemonic and metronomic similarities between the GASCOIGNE Family and the
fictional D'ASCOYNE Family, Dukes of Chalfont, of the delightful British
black comedy produced by Ealing Studios in 1949 -- starring Dennis Price,
Alec Guinness, Joan Greenwood and Valerie Hobson.

The critics say:

"Bosley Crowther, critic for The New York Times, calls it a "delicious
little satire on Edwardian manners and morals" in which "the sly and adroit
Mr. Guinness plays eight Edwardian fuddy-duds with such devastating wit and
variety that he naturally dominates the film." Praise is also given to
Price ("as able as Mr. Guinness in his single but most demanding role"), as
well as Greenwood and Hobson ("provocative as women in his life")."

"Roger Ebert lists Kind Hearts and Coronets among his "Great Movies",
stating "Price is impeccable as the murderer: Elegant, well-spoken, a
student of demeanor", and notes that "murder, Louis demonstrates, ... can be
most agreeably entertaining"."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kind_Hearts_and_Coronets>

Thoroughly Enjoyable...

And Good Hunting to Chris Bovis.

D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus.

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

wrote in message
news:mailman.0.140523858...@rootsweb.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

The William Gascoigne who fathered the Chief Justice is reportedly the 20th
Great-Grandfather of the Duke of Cambridge and the 19th Great-Grandfather of
the Duchess of Cambridge.

D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus.

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

[John Watson]

Dear Matt,

Nice find - I can't think why I didn't look there. William Gascoigne seems to have moved around a bit. The earliest reference I can find for him in the Patent Rolls is from Lincolnshire when he is described confusingly as of Kirkby Wharfe and of Harewood, which are not all that close together:

4 March 1345, commission of oyer and terminer to Hugh de Hastynges, Roger de Baukwell, William de Thorpe and William de Skipwith, on complaint by John son of John de Kyme of Waynfiet and William, his brother, that William Gascoyn of Kirkeby on Wherf of Harewode and others by night broke their houses at Waynfiet, carried away their goods as well as £65 of money by count, and assaulted their men and servants so that their life was despaired of, whereby they lost their service for a great time.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, vol. 6, 496.

In all the other references I can find for him, he is described as of Harewood, never of Gawthorpe, but I suppose that Gawthorpe was a small vill inside the Lisle's manor of Harewood.

The William Franke of Alwoodley who appears at both inquisitions with William Gascoigne was, I believe, his wife's brother.

By the way, the writ of diem clausit extremum for William Gascoigne of Harewood was issued to the esheator in Yorkshire on 7 December 1378 (CFR, ix, 153). If he was born about 1309, then he would be almost 70 when he died. I don't suppose there was an ipm?

Best regards,

John

[Matt Tompkins]

> > On 11/07/2014 18:04, John Watson wrote:
> > > There is no contemporary evidence whatsoever that any of the
> > > Gascoignes or their wives in the first two generations existed. If
> > > they did exist, then they didn't buy, sell or give away land, appear
> > > in court cases, commit any crimes, give any land to monastic houses,
> > > join any wars, have any kind of employment, or in any way bring
> > > themselves to the notice of the authorities.
> >
> > From: Colin Withers
> > Sent: 11 July 2014 18:24
> > > They didn't leave any wills either. The earliest in the courts of York
> > begin in 1418, and are fairly regular after that date, but not one from
> > the 14th century or earlier. I have checked all the unpublished medieval
> > wills indexes too, with the same result.
> >
> > ________________________________________

> On Sunday, 13 July 2014 09:02:34 UTC+1, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> > It does sound as though the William Gascoigne who fathered the chief justice cannot have been a native of Yorkshire - either that or he had risen from the very lowest, unrecorded levels of Yorkshire society, which seems a little unlikely. It might be worth looking for his origins elsewhere in England - he might have been an immigrant from Gascony, but it is equally likely that his ancestors had been in England for several generations (I'll comment in a moment on the possibility that he was a Gascon retainer of John Lisle of Rougemont). There seems to have been a minor gentry or franklin family of Gascoignes holding of the Beauchamps in Compton Dundon in Somerset in the 1340s, for example (CIPM viii, 1336-47, pp. 322, 325). It might also be productive to look in the areas where the Lisles had estates - Cambs, Herts and Beds principally - or the Vavasours (see below for why).
> >
> > I've found a couple of references to a William Gascoigne in mid-14C Yorkshire IPMs who is probably our man, and which cast some interesting light on his status and origins.
> >
> > CIPM x (1352-61), p. 290, the assignment of dower in the manor of Harewode (which contained Gawthorpe) to Maud, widow of John de Lisle of Rougemont, on 6 April 1356, was made in the presence of William Fraunk of Alwoodley, Nicholas de Harewod, William Gascoigne and Robert de Ecclesley. These four would have been present as representatives of John's son and heir Robert de Lisle or of Maud herself, suggesting that William Gascoigne was a fairly senior Lisle adviser or retainer.
> >
> > CIPM x (1352-61), p. 120, the proof of age of Mauger Vavasour, held just after Midsummer 1353, which reported that he had been born at Denton, near Harewood in Yorkshire, in June 1332; two of the witnesses were William Fraunk, aged 48 and more, who in 1332 had been a servant of Mauger's father, Thomas Vavasour of Denton, and William Gascoigne, aged 44 and more, who in 1332 was dwelling at Denton and had lands etc there. This is surely our man, the husband of Agnes Frank, and places him in Denton, not Gawthorpe (though not far from there), in 1332, aged 23 (and so born c. 1309). John de Lisle's career in Gascony did not begin until later in the 1330s, so it must be very unlikely that William Gascoigne was a Gascon retainer of his.
> >
> > Anyway, Chris Bovis at York will be working on this problem full-time for the next couple of years, so hopefully everything will be revealed one day soon.
> >

> ________________________________________

On Sunday, 13 July 2014 19:23:32 UTC+1, John Watson wrote:
> Dear Matt,
>
> Nice find - I can't think why I didn't look there. William Gascoigne seems to have moved around a bit. The earliest reference I can find for him in the Patent Rolls is from Lincolnshire when he is described confusingly as of Kirkby Wharfe and of Harewood, which are not all that close together:
>
> 4 March 1345, commission of oyer and terminer to Hugh de Hastynges, Roger de Baukwell, William de Thorpe and William de Skipwith, on complaint by John son of John de Kyme of Waynfiet and William, his brother, that William Gascoyn of Kirkeby on Wherf of Harewode and others by night broke their houses at Waynfiet, carried away their goods as well as £65 of money by count, and assaulted their men and servants so that their life was despaired of, whereby they lost their service for a great time.
>
> Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward III, vol. 6, 496.
>
> In all the other references I can find for him, he is described as of Harewood, never of Gawthorpe, but I suppose that Gawthorpe was a small vill inside the Lisle's manor of Harewood.
>
> The William Franke of Alwoodley who appears at both inquisitions with William Gascoigne was, I believe, his wife's brother.
>
> By the way, the writ of diem clausit extremum for William Gascoigne of Harewood was issued to the esheator in Yorkshire on 7 December 1378 (CFR, ix, 153). If he was born about 1309, then he would be almost 70 when he died. I don't suppose there was an ipm?
>

I'm afraid no IPM has survived, John. It isn't in CIPM xv (1377-84), or in either of the two following CIPMs, nor is it in the 1821 Calendarium, vol. iii (1377-1413). It's just possible that there is an Exchequer version lurking unnoticed in E 149 or E 152, but that's really clutching at straws.

The reference to William Gascoyn 'of Kirkby on Wharfe of Harewood' is strange. Did he have residences in both, or was the plaintiff just unsure which he lived in? Or does it maybe say 'of Harewode' rather than 'and of Harewode' because Kirkby on Wharfe itself somehow belonged to Harewood? The last doesn't seem very likely, but then again I was just looking in the Manorial Documents Register to see whether any manorial records survive from Harewood (or Denton) in the late 13th or early 14th centuries and found that the only Harewood documents are a series of reeve's accounts from 1265-1294, and curiously they mostly relate to both Harewood and Kirkby - could that be Kirkby on Wharfe?. There seems to have been some estate administration link between the two.

Matt

[John Watson]

On Friday, 11 July 2014 10:44:18 UTC+1, Matt Tompkins wrote:

Dear Matt,

I have been doing a bit of geographical detective work. On the other side of the river Wharfe from Harewood is a place which today is called "Kearby Town End". It is about 2 miles north of Harewood. This is probably the Kirby on Wharfe referred to in the writ. It may have been a part of the manor of Harewood.

In a fine dated 6 October 1392, William Rither and Sibyl his wife granted "40 marks of rent issuing from the manors of Harewod' and Kereby and 60 messuages, 20 tofts, 12 carucates of land, 100 acres of meadow, 1000 acres of meadow and 30 acres of wood in Harewod', Kereby, Carleton', Dunkesewyk' and Kirkeby Orblawers" to Robert Constable of Flamborough. (CP 25/1/278/146, number 13 http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_278_146.shtml#13 )

Perhaps William Gascoigne held property in Kearby and Harewood.

Regards,

John

[Renia]

On 15/07/2014 06:20, John Watson wrote:


> Dear Matt,
>
> I have been doing a bit of geographical detective work. On the other
> side of the river Wharfe from Harewood is a place which today is
> called "Kearby Town End". It is about 2 miles north of Harewood. This
> is probably the Kirby on Wharfe referred to in the writ. It may have
> been a part of the manor of Harewood.
>
> In a fine dated 6 October 1392, William Rither and Sibyl his wife
> granted "40 marks of rent issuing from the manors of Harewod' and
> Kereby and 60 messuages, 20 tofts, 12 carucates of land, 100 acres of
> meadow, 1000 acres of meadow and 30 acres of wood in Harewod',
> Kereby, Carleton', Dunkesewyk' and Kirkeby Orblawers" to Robert
> Constable of Flamborough. (CP 25/1/278/146, number 13
> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_278_146.shtml#13
> )
>
> Perhaps William Gascoigne held property in Kearby and Harewood.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>

Kirkby Wharfe is in a different area of Yorkshire, down near Tadcaster,
in the wapentake of Barkston Ash, 12 Miles from York.

Kearby or Kearby Town End is Kirkby Overblow in Claro, 20 miles from York.

Harewood is in Skyrack,


http://genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kirkbywharfe/index.html
http://genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kirkbyoverblow/index.html
http://genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Where/K.html
http://genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Harewood/index.html

[Matt Tompkins]

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 6:20:09 AM UTC+1, John Watson wrote:
> I have been doing a bit of geographical detective work. On the other side of the river Wharfe from Harewood is a place which today is called "Kearby Town End". It is about 2 miles north of Harewood. This is probably the Kirby on Wharfe referred to in the writ. It may have been a part of the manor of Harewood.
>
> In a fine dated 6 October 1392, William Rither and Sibyl his wife granted "40 marks of rent issuing from the manors of Harewod' and Kereby and 60 messuages, 20 tofts, 12 carucates of land, 100 acres of meadow, 1000 acres of meadow and 30 acres of wood in Harewod', Kereby, Carleton', Dunkesewyk' and Kirkeby Orblawers" to Robert Constable of Flamborough. (CP 25/1/278/146, number 13 http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_278_146.shtml#13 )
>
> Perhaps William Gascoigne held property in Kearby and Harewood.
>

Yes, could well be. Though I have now established that the Kirkby which was linked to Harewood in Isabel de Forz's late 13C reeve's accounts is Kirkby Overblow. She held that manor (which included Kearby) as well as the manor of Harewood.

Matt

[sbarnh...@gmail.com]

Hi Matt:

Did you obtain a copy of thesis?

[Matt Tompkins]

On Friday, 18 July 2014 02:03:08 UTC+1, Steve Barnhoorn wrote:
> Hi Matt:
>
> Did you obtain a copy of thesis?

You mean Chris Bovis' thesis on the Gascoignes of Gawthorpe? It hasn't been written yet - he's only two years into it, so it will presumably be finished late next year.

[cmb...@york.ac.uk]

Hello there, I'm the Chris Bovis who gave the paper at Leeds. I argued for the case that the antiquarian genealogies prior to William Gascoigne senior (c.1309-1383) should be discarded due to their tendencies to focus on the 'history' given by Richard Gascoigne (the antiquarian, 1570-1661) who appeared to either manufacture a dynasty, or report on stories and legends already widely believed by his contemporaries. This isn't the first instance of a manufactured, or edited, descent with gentry families.

I read the thread, and I wouldn't be able to say 100% that the Gascoignes did in fact come from Gascony at one point. Though it seems likely Gascoigne can have other meanings. For example, mentioned earlier was the Gascoigne branch in Somerset (of whom I once believed their to be a connection with the Yorkshire branch, but cannot find any evidence for). The Somerset branch took its name from a river in Somerset. A tributary of the River Yeo is the River Gascoigne, and I believe that the Gascoigne family in Somerset owned land near the aforementioned tributary.

On another point, if Robert de Lisle and William Gascoigne senior were brothers, its likely that their relationship would be mentioned in the documentation. Robert de Lisle had no heirs, and it would make sense for his brother to be legitimised, so he could inherit, if this were the case. See the Plumpton family of Plompton in the mid-15th century for an example of this.

J. Foster's family tree has a number of inaccuracies in the early years. For instance, the number of daughters of William Gascoigne senior appears incorrect. I believe that Anne Gascoigne and her marriage to Sir Robert Constable is a mistake; confused with the marriage of Agnes Gascoigne (Sir William Gascoigne I (c.1350-1419)'s daughter to Sir Robert Constable. Studies of the Constable family have been done and the Anne-Robert marriage doesn't feature. I think instead that it is likely that Anne Gascoigne married Peter Roos. Foster reports that the Roos family married an unknown Gascoigne. Given that Anne's marriage is incorrect, the logical assumption is for the marriage to be with Peter Roos, however, I have very little evidence for the Peter-Anne match.

My belief at the moment is that William Gascoigne senior was a merchant. His presence in a number of locations (and his ties to Lincolnshire) support this. Furthermore he was clearly involved in mercantile violence. Given that two of his sons purchased marriages, I feel it is likely that Gascoigne purchased the marriage of Agnes Frank; William Frank's sister (I think). His presence in a series of charters/ipms mentioned above stems from his close relationship to the Frank family post marriage. I believe he gained a small portion of land in Harewood from them (his main Harewood estate, that would become Gawthorpe would come in 1363 from William Dighton), and Alwoodley is a neighbouring estate. Though this is not certain, if he were an official, or administrator of de Lisle's estates then his position may have been stated in the documents.

Chris

[Matt Tompkins]

On Friday, 18 July 2014 09:44:26 UTC+1, cmb...@york.ac.uk wrote:
> Hello there, I'm the Chris Bovis who gave the paper at Leeds. I argued for the case that the antiquarian genealogies prior to William Gascoigne senior (c.1309-1383) should be discarded due to their tendencies to focus on the 'history' given by Richard Gascoigne (the antiquarian, 1570-1661) who appeared to either manufacture a dynasty, or report on stories and legends already widely believed by his contemporaries. This isn't the first instance of a manufactured, or edited, descent with gentry families.
>
> I read the thread, and I wouldn't be able to say 100% that the Gascoignes did in fact come from Gascony at one point. Though it seems likely Gascoigne can have other meanings. For example, mentioned earlier was the Gascoigne branch in Somerset (of whom I once believed their to be a connection with the Yorkshire branch, but cannot find any evidence for). The Somerset branch took its name from a river in Somerset. A tributary of the River Yeo is the River Gascoigne, and I believe that the Gascoigne family in Somerset owned land near the aforementioned tributary.
>
> On another point, if Robert de Lisle and William Gascoigne senior were brothers, its likely that their relationship would be mentioned in the documentation. Robert de Lisle had no heirs, and it would make sense for his brother to be legitimised, so he could inherit, if this were the case. See the Plumpton family of Plompton in the mid-15th century for an example of this.
>
> J. Foster's family tree has a number of inaccuracies in the early years. For instance, the number of daughters of William Gascoigne senior appears incorrect. I believe that Anne Gascoigne and her marriage to Sir Robert Constable is a mistake; confused with the marriage of Agnes Gascoigne (Sir William Gascoigne I (c.1350-1419)'s daughter to Sir Robert Constable. Studies of the Constable family have been done and the Anne-Robert marriage doesn't feature. I think instead that it is likely that Anne Gascoigne married Peter Roos. Foster reports that the Roos family married an unknown Gascoigne. Given that Anne's marriage is incorrect, the logical assumption is for the marriage to be with Peter Roos, however, I have very little evidence for the Peter-Anne match.
>
> My belief at the moment is that William Gascoigne senior was a merchant. His presence in a number of locations (and his ties to Lincolnshire) support this. Furthermore he was clearly involved in mercantile violence. Given that two of his sons purchased marriages, I feel it is likely that Gascoigne purchased the marriage of Agnes Frank; William Frank's sister (I think). His presence in a series of charters/ipms mentioned above stems from his close relationship to the Frank family post marriage. I believe he gained a small portion of land in Harewood from them (his main Harewood estate, that would become Gawthorpe would come in 1363 from William Dighton), and Alwoodley is a neighbouring estate. Though this is not certain, if he were an official, or administrator of de Lisle's estates then his position may have been stated in the documents.
>
> Chris

Nice to hear from you about this, Chris. I enjoyed your talk last week.

What is the earliest reference you have found to William Gascoigne? Does it predate the reference in Mauger Vavasour's 1353 proof of age, in which William describes himself as a resident of and landholder in Denton in June 1332, aged c23?

Matt Tompkins

[John Watson]

On Friday, 18 July 2014 09:44:26 UTC+1, cmb...@york.ac.uk wrote:

Dear Chris,

Thanks for posting and giving us an insight into your researches so far.

For the first William Gascoigne's daughters, I have two, though the evidence for one of them is a bit shaky.

Its possible he had a daughter Margaret who married Robert Hansard, of Walworth, Durham, Blacktoft, Yorkshire and South Kelsey and Thornton-le-Moor, Lincolnshire. Robert Hansard died in February 1391. I can't find any real evidence of this however.

William Gascoigne's daughter Alice appears to have married Robert Manston of Manston, Yorkshire. In his will dated 3 February 1422, Richard Gascoigne of Hunslet, son of the first William Gascoigne, mentions his nephew Alfred Manston.

On a different point, and proving that most of these visitation pedigrees should be treated with caution. The second wife of Sir William Gascoigne, the Chief Justice, is named in the pedigrees as Joan, daughter of Sir William Pickering. Some time ago I pointed out here that there was no such person as Sir William Pickering alive at that time. Joan was actually the daughter of Sir James Pickering (ca. 1332-1398), and widow of Sir Christopher Moresby of Moresby, Cumberland who died before November 1391. By her first husband, she had three sons, Sir Christopher, Robert and Richard who are named as executors of her will in May 1426.

Agnes the wife of Robert Constable of Flamborough (ca. 1390-1441) was a daughter of Joan Pickering and she mentions "Robert Constable and my daughter his wife", in her will. Presumably she was a daughter of the judge and not of Christopher Moresby. By William Gascoigne she had a son James, ancestor of the Gascoignes of Cardington, Bedfordshire.

Coming back to the first William Gascoigne. He must have been a man of some wealth to be able to send his son William (later the judge) to study law. It appears two of his other sons, Nicholas and Richard may also have been lawyers, so maybe he could afford to send all three to study. His other surviving son John became a priest.

Best regards,

John
in sunny Sussex.

[cmb...@york.ac.uk]

Dear all,

No problem. I'm glad you enjoyed it Matt.

The Vavasour reference gives the most information. His age (as well as they can) is given, which allows for an approximate birth date, and residence in the early 1330s. However, there is a reference in October 1345 which I believe is William Gascoigne senior engaging in mercantile violence. (CPR 1343-45, p. 496). That's the earliest reference I have, prior to the CIPM in the 1350s.

I've never come across any evidence for a daughter called Margaret. Though that is interesting, thank you. I shall keep an eye out for evidence in the future.

The Manston link, as far as I can tell, doesn't come from the Gascoigne side, but rather through Richard Gascoigne's wife, Beatrice Ellis. He was clearly considered a close member of the inner familial or friendship circle however. Richard mentions him, William I (c.1350-1419) bequeaths £40 in his will. I think some confusion has arisen in the antiquarian sources between Alice (?) and Robert Manston (Alfred's parents), and Robert Gascoigne and Ellen Manston (in the mid-late fifteenth century) as Ellen is often referred to as Alice (especially in Feet of Fines), and thus it seems likely that Foster's recording of the name may be mistaken. However, without any direct evidence on the surname of Alfred's mother, its speculation at best.

Can I ask how you know Christopher, Robert and Richard were children of the first marriage? I've never heard of that, and it would explain why I've not found any references to them as Gascoignes, except from the will, which is sketchy. That would mean the only child Joan had with William was James Gascoigne I (of Cardington, Bedfordshire). From what I can tell Agnes was a daughter from the first marriage, to Elizabeth Mowbray.

Interestingly, and this is something I discussed in my paper, John appears to be the eldest son, who was sent to Oxford for a clerical career. William I was his second son, and eventually his heir. Richard and Nicholas were only gentry lawyers, it seems, rather than fully trained lawyers. Both served on the West Riding bench and from what I can tell it was in a 'local with a comprehension of law' capacity, given both of their careers in service. I think that, as well as Richard and Nicholas' disposable income following their father's death (the purchasing of Lasingcroft as a example) reinforces the idea that William Gascoigne Senior (d.1383) was a merchant who 'made it.'


Thomas appears to have died young.

Chris

[John Watson]

Hi Chris,

Concerning the marriage of Joan Pickering and her first husband Sir Christopher Moresby.

There is a biography of Sir Christopher Moresby, Joan's first husband, online here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/moresby-sir-christopher-1357-1391

Of the three sons who Joan mentions in her will:

1. Sir Christopher Moresby, was born at Winderwath, Cumberland on 12 November 1380 and died before 20 February 1443.
There is a biography of him here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/moresby-christopher-1380-1443
See also: http://www.history.ac.uk/cipm-18-part-vii

2. Robert Moresby. I can find little in the records about him. He was alive on 1 May 1426, when his mother wrote her will.

3. Richard Moresby, was a clergyman. He was presented to the church of Holme-on-Spalding Moor by Robert Constable on 8 November 1424. This is the same Robert Constable who married Agnes, daughter of Joan Pickering (she was a daughter of Joan Pickering, not Elizabeth Mowbray, the judge's first wife). Joan Pickering also requested burial in this church in her will. Richard Moresby was canon of London in November 1428, when he, Robert Constable and Agnes his wife had a papal indulgence to have a portable altar. He was collated to the archdeaconry of London in 1430, which he resigned in 1442, and his prebend of Hoxton in 1443. He became archdeacon of Huntingdon and Le Neve says that he died in 1461.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

John

[cmb...@york.ac.uk]

Dear John,

Thank you for this. Its very helpful.

Chris

[TJ Booth_sbc]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 7:00:46 AM UTC-5, cmb...@york.ac.uk wrote:

<Snip>

> The Manston link, as far as I can tell, doesn't come from the Gascoigne side, but rather through Richard Gascoigne's wife, Beatrice Ellis. He was clearly considered a close member of the inner familial or friendship circle however. Richard mentions him, William I (c.1350-1419) bequeaths £40 in his will. I think some confusion has arisen in the antiquarian sources between Alice (?) and Robert Manston (Alfred's parents), and Robert Gascoigne and Ellen Manston (in the mid-late fifteenth century) as Ellen is often referred to as Alice (especially in Feet of Fines), and thus it seems likely that Foster's recording of the name may be mistaken. However, without any direct evidence on the surname of Alfred's mother, its speculation at best.

<Snip>

Back from vacation, hence the late reply. Have 2 questions for John or Chris, and documentation of the Manston link.

Question 1. Foster's pedigree, and others, state that Gawkethorp came to the Gascoignes via marriage to 'Maud' co-heir of her father, John de Gawkethorp. Gawkethorpe was originally a village located in Harewood, which a later Gascoigne demolished to make room for the manor house there. It was mispelled 'Gowkthorp' by a Gascoigne, apparently meaning 'cuckoo', and thus is called the cuckoo village. Is there any documentary evidence concerning the descent of Gawkethorpe? If Maud existed and was a co-heir, who was the other? The Gascoigne's likely began as a feudal tenant, with Harewood itself owned by de Insula, after which the William de Aldburgh m. the de Insula heir. Robert de Insula was killed in Gascony, consistent with a Gascony origin.

Question 2. Foster cites 2 documents for the judge's father, 1 if not both likely misdated. I have not found the one stating "temp Edw 1, plaintiff in a plea of account against John Kyme of Wainflete, merchant". Has this record been located?

The Manston relationship is more important than noted. Alfred Manston was an executor of the Chief Justice' will, and Sir William the judge's son was Manston's executor. Alfred is called 'nepos meus' in the will of the judge's brother, Richard of Hunslet. These relationships all suggest that Alfred's mother was very likely the sister of the chief justice. Glover also notes that Manston and his wife Elizabeth are buried in Harewood Church, where the chief justice and Joan Pickering have a tomb. Alfred Manston left a 6 Jun 1439 will which mentions several Gascoignes [1] Several generations of the Manston family can be documented, some correcting the Manston pedigree: [2]

Gen 1. Robert Manston of Manston (near Leeds), b. perhaps 1360, m. perhaps 1380, Alice Gascoigne, b. perhaps 1360, sister of the chief judge. Robert and Alice are remembered in the 1439 will of their son Alfred, as is the deceased judge. In 1 Rich II (1377/78) Robert Manston and William Gascoigne were co-plaintifs in a lawsuit. [3]

Gen 2. Alfred Manston, b. perhaps 1390, d. bef 26 Jan 1439/40, m. perhaps 1410 Elizabeth Neville, b. perhaps 1390, d. aft 6 Jun 1439. There are Manston with Neville arms in Harewood Church. I have her as dau of Sir John Neville and Alice Sherwood of Liversege. Sir John's son Sir Thomas Neville m. Alice Gascoigne, a dau of Richard of Hunslet. Children, mentioned in his will : John, Robert [heir of his brother John], Thomas, Alexander, Elizabeth m. Richard Tempest [their son Robert Esq. m. Alice Kighley but dsp].

Gen 3. Robert Manston, b. perhaps 1420, d. abt 1473, m. perhaps 1440, Joanna NN. They had one dau, heir of her father. Joanna m.(2) William Mauleverer.

Gen 4. Alice Manston, b. perhaps 1448, d. bef 14 Feb 1526/27, was thrice m. She m.(1) perhaps 1465, Arthur Pilkington Esq. of Sowerby, b. perhaps 1445, d. 13 Sep 1470 and buried in Whitkirk Church Leeds. She m.(2) Robert Gascoigne, 2nd son of Sir William by Margaret Clarell, b. perhaps 1440, d. 30 Jan 1473/74 and buried in Whitkirk church in Leeds. She m.(3) Roger Dyneley of Downham Lancs, b. perhaps 1455, d. 27 Apr 1513 and buried in Whitkirk Church Leeds. Her 6 Feb 1526/27 will names all her then living children, several sons-in-law, and at least 2 gr-children. [4] The July 1527 ipm for Alice Manston noted that her grandson, John Gascoigne age 32 & upwards was her heir. The entail for Alice's estate is stated in a 28 Apr 1476 fine, when she was a widow and before her 3rd marriage.[5]

Gen 5.1. Joanna 'Jane' Pilkington, b. perhaps 1468, m. William Hunt, who d. aft 1527. Jane Pilkington was 1st in entail of her mother's estate, but dsp before her mother's ipm.

Gen 5.2. George, William, Humphrey and Jane Gascoigne, b. perhaps 1471, 1472, 1473 and 1474. George, 1st in the entail after Jane, d. bef 27 Jul 1527, when his son John - then age 32 & upwards - was heir of Manston of his grandmother. Humphrey was a cleric who left a 21 Jan 1541/42 will mentioning his nephew John and his Dyneley relations.

Gen 5.3. Margaret, Joan, Elizabeth, Peter, Ann, John Dyneley, b. perhaps 1580, 1583, 1585, 1586, 1588, 1590, 1592. All are mentioned in Alice Manston's will, Margaret and Jane noted in Glover's 1584 visitation. Margaret m. William Mallet of Normanton Yorks, Elizabeth m. Robert Hall of Leventhorpe in Swillington, and Ann m. Thomas Wentworth of West Bretton. Both sons apparently entered the church, Peter as the Parson of Hirnam, and John as a Chaplain. At least the 3 known married daus had issue.

Gen 6 John Gascoigne, heir of his grandmother, b. abt 1495, d. aft 27 Feb 1726/27, son of George by Catherine Leventhorpe. [6] John m. perhaps 1515, Margaret Ellison of South Duffield, heir of her father. They had one dau. John sold Manston in 1527, the year he inherited it, thereafter of South Duffield.

Gen 7 Daughter of John Gascoigne, heir of her father, b. perhaps 1520, m. perhaps 1540, Marmaduke Fawkes, b. perhaps 1520 in Newhall, 2nd son of Nicholas by Ann Hawksworth. The Fawkes pedigree is inconsistent, but Glover recorded the heraldry for Marmaduke and his father in the Hemingway Church, confirming it.[7] They were of South Duffield, had issue.

Terry Booth
Chicago IL


Footnotes
---------
[1] Testamenta Eboracensia; Part II; Surtees Soc Vol 30 (1855); page 73 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=YoikpOFrHPgC&pg=PA73
[2] 'Manston of Manston in the parish of Whitkirk'; Platt & Morkill; Records of the Parish of Whitkirk, Leeds, Jackson; 1892, page 70 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=1bYLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA70
[3] Ibid.; page 72.
[4] Ibid.; page 68.
[5] Transcribed on Chris Philips' Medieval Geneaology website @ www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_281_164.shtml
[6] 'Gascoigne of Manston'; Burton, Thomas; edited by James Raine, History and Antiquities of the Parish of Hemingsbrough in the County of York (York, Sampson Bros; 1888. Page 288 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=DbNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA288
[7] Robert Glover (Joseph Foster Editor); Visitation of Yorkshire; page 437. Glover does not identify families of the arms, but they are found in Burton; op. cit., page 29.

[Matt Tompkins]

> On Friday, July 18, 2014 7:00:46 AM UTC-5, cmb...@york.ac.uk wrote:
> <Snip>
> > The Manston link, as far as I can tell, doesn't come from the Gascoigne side, but rather through Richard Gascoigne's wife, Beatrice Ellis. He was clearly considered a close member of the inner familial or friendship circle however. Richard mentions him, William I (c.1350-1419) bequeaths £40 in his will. I think some confusion has arisen in the antiquarian sources between Alice (?) and Robert Manston (Alfred's parents), and Robert Gascoigne and Ellen Manston (in the mid-late fifteenth century) as Ellen is often referred to as Alice (especially in Feet of Fines), and thus it seems likely that Foster's recording of the name may be mistaken. However, without any direct evidence on the surname of Alfred's mother, its speculation at best.
> > <Snip>
> >

On Friday, July 25, 2014 3:39:44 PM UTC+1, TJ Booth_sbc wrote:
> Back from vacation, hence the late reply. Have 2 questions for John or Chris, and documentation of the Manston link.
>
> Question 1. Foster's pedigree, and others, state that Gawkethorp came to the Gascoignes via marriage to 'Maud' co-heir of her father, John de Gawkethorp. Gawkethorpe was originally a village located in Harewood, which a later Gascoigne demolished to make room for the manor house there. It was mispelled 'Gowkthorp' by a Gascoigne, apparently meaning 'cuckoo', and thus is called the cuckoo village. Is there any documentary evidence concerning the descent of Gawkethorpe? If Maud existed and was a co-heir, who was the other? The Gascoigne's likely began as a feudal tenant, with Harewood itself owned by de Insula, after which the William de Aldburgh m. the de Insula heir. Robert de Insula was killed in Gascony, consistent with a Gascony origin.
>

The Maud de Gaukethorp marriage and inheritance cannot be confirmed from any contemporary records, which are suspiciously silent concerning Gascoignes in the area of Harewood and Gowthorpe at the relevant dates. The earliest known contemporary reference to the family is the 1353 Proof of Age which I quoted before (CIPM x (1352-61), p. 120). In it William Gascoigne, aged 44 and more, said that in 1332 he was dwelling and had lands etc at Denton, near Otley. If the Maud de Gaukethorpe story were true you would expect him to be living in Gowthorpe, not Denton. And as John de Lisle's first appearance in Gascony dates from after 1332 it must be very unlikely that William Gascoigne was brought to Yorkshire from Gascony by him.

Matt Tompkins

[Colin Withers via]

I am currently trying to identify the 19 coats of arms in the church of
Ellerton on Derwent in the East Riding, noted during the Heralds
Visitation of 1584. The arms are tricked in Harl. Ms 1394, and blazoned
in Foster's edition of the Visitation of Yorkshire 1584/5 by Robert Glover.

I am making good progress, but one has me a bit perplexed. The blazon is
fairly simple: Or, 2 bars, and in chief 3 torteaux. No tincture is given
in this blazon for either the 2 bars or the torteaux. Nevertheless, the
only tincture given in Papworth, page 29, is gules, and the only surname
bearing these arms being Wake. It then lists a Sir Hugh Wake of York in
the time of Edward I [1272-1307]

Has anyone ever come across this Sir Hugh Wake of York? Google doesn't
seem to own him.

[al...@mindspring.com]

It could refer to Sir Hugh Wake of Blisworth b. bef 18 Dec 1241, d. 31 may 1315.

See Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929), Vol. V, pps 135-136. Herald and Genealogist, VI: 48. VCH Bucks 3 (1925), pps 184-193.

Arms: Gules, 2 bars argent, in chief 3 torteaux argent.

The blazons for various members of this family over the years have different tinctures in the rolls over the years.

Doug Smith

[Peter Howarth]

Since the priory church at Ellerton was falling down in 1846 and replaced by a Victorian church that in turn fell down in the 1970s, we presumably have no indication of dates for the coats of arms beyond the fact that they were in existence in 1584. They may have referred to patrons of the priory.

The arms, two bars and in chief three roundels, almost certainly belonged to someone in the Wake family. By the Tudor period, heralds liked to give different names to roundels according to their tincture, so 'bezants' for gold ones, 'plates' for silver, 'torteaux' for red, and so on.

The main branch of the Wakes, of Bourne and Haconby, Lincs, bore 'or, two bars and in chief three roundels gules'. The earliest one for whom we have evidence was Hugh II (d.1241).[1] He married Joan, sole h of Nicholas de Stuteville of Cottingham, ER, which may account for the family's connection with the priory. There is evidence for the same arms for his successors, Baldwin III (d.1282),[2] John, 1st Ld Wake (d.1300),[3] and Thomas, 2nd Ld Wake (d.1349 s.p.).[4] I therefore reckon that the Ellerton arms would have referred to one of them.

Hugh Wake, of Blisworth, Northants, East Deeping, Lincs, and Clifton, Bucks, bore 'gules, two bars and in chief three roundels argent'.[5] One of the rolls of arms (c.1312) refers to him as 'le Oncle', so he was presumably a younger son of Hugh II of Bourne and uncle to John, 1st Ld Wake. Hugh of Blisworth's son, Thomas I (d. after 1379) bore 'argent, two bars and in chief three roundels gules, a bordure indented sable',[6] which suggests that he may have been born a younger son even though he inherited his father's lands.

For the sake of completeness, I perhaps ought to mention that the Wake of Bourne arms, 'or, two bars and in chief three roundels gules', were also used by an unidentified John de Harcourt in 1300.[7] He may have been a cadet relation of the Jean le Prud'homme d'Harcourt (Eure) (d.1288) who bore 'gules, two bars or'.[8]

Please do not rely on Papworth. He was an architect who invented a marvellous method of categorising arms according to their charges, but in drawing up his list of arms he had to rely on works by Bernard Burke. Need I say more? That is why we now have The Dictionary of British Arms, with three volumes of four published so far. It uses Papworth's method, but gives mediaeval sources for every entry.

Peter

[1] Glover's Roll (c.1240-53) B 51; Matthew Paris Shields (c.1245-51) MP IV 50 has the roundels silver, but Matthew was not always reliable.
[2] Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 102, Dering Roll (c.1280) A 82, Camden Roll (c.1280) D 109, St George's Roll (c.1285) E 61
[3] Segar's Roll (c.1285) G 55, Lord Marshal's Roll (c.1295) LM 57, Collins' Roll (c.1296) Q 37, Falkirk Roll (1298) H 25, Guillim's Roll (1295-1305) J 18, Smallpece's Roll (1298-1306) SP 46, Sir William Le Neve's Roll (temp. Edw I) WNR 77, Parliamentary Roll (c.1312) N 16;
Charles's Roll (c.1285) F 89 has a single fess with the roundels
[4] seals: 1317-48, Birch 14204; 1318, Durham 2547
[5] Camden Roll (c.1280) D 249, Parliamentary Roll (c.1312) N 702
[6] Boroughbridge Roll (1322) O 34
[7] Galloway Roll (1300) 83
[8] Walford's Roll (c.1275) C 173, Heralds' Roll (c.1279) HE 552, Segar's Roll (c.1285) G 96

[Colin Withers via]

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Many thanks for that Peter.

I will check out The Dictionary of British Arms

I have not yet found any connection between any member of the Wake
family and Ellerton Priory, and I have been studying Ellerton Priory for
some years now. I hope to get back to the BL the week after next, so I
will check that the blazon that Foster gives agrees with the shield
shown in Harl. Ms 1394.

Colin

[TJ Booth_sbc]

On Friday, July 25, 2014 9:54:08 AM UTC-5, Matt Tompkins wrote:

<Snip>

> The Maud de Gaukethorp marriage and inheritance cannot be confirmed from any contemporary records, which are suspiciously silent concerning Gascoignes in the area of Harewood and Gowthorpe at the relevant dates. The earliest known contemporary reference to the family is the 1353 Proof of Age which I quoted before (CIPM x (1352-61), p. 120). In it William Gascoigne, aged 44 and more, said that in 1332 he was dwelling and had lands etc at Denton, near Otley. If the Maud de Gaukethorpe story were true you would expect him to be living in Gowthorpe, not Denton. And as John de Lisle's first appearance in Gascony dates from after 1332 it must be very unlikely that William Gascoigne was brought to Yorkshire from Gascony by him.

<Snip>

Thanks Matt.

I overlooked the 1343 Kirkeby-on-Wharfe / John de Kyme record you posted. It is surely the misdated 'temp Edw 1' record cited in Foster's York pedigree.

Have you found any contemporary evidence that a 'de Gawkethorp' family held Gawkethorp prior to Gascoigne? Or does the existence of a 'de Gawkethorpe' family also lack support? If there is evidence - and depending on dates - Gascoigne could well have purchased their interest (like Wheldale).

While the early Gascoignes were certainly 'of Harewood' (the larger parrish area that includes Gawthorpe), the manor of Harewood itself (as you know) was shared for many generations of Redmans and Rythers. The will of the chief judge, while requesting burial in Harewood Church, only makes property bequests involving Gawkethorpe ('Gowkthorpe' in 1 place) and Wheldale [Queldale],[1] with no mention of Harewood except for the church.[2] My own preference is to call the early Gascoigne generations 'of Gawthorpe'.

The relationship between de Insula and Gascony predates John de Lisle by some 40 years based upon the following CP VIII:71 entry :
WARIN DE LISLE, son and heir [of Robert] by 1st wife [Mabel Muscegros] . . On the death s.p.s., 10 November 1293, of Isabel de Forz, Countess of Aumale, sister and heir of Baldwin (de Reviers), Earl of Devon, he was found to be one of her heirs. In 1294 he was going to Gascony as yeoman of Thomas Latimer of Warden, but took care to make his claim to Isabel's inheritance.

Warin d. in 1296, when his son was a minor, and Harewood was in the king's hands until 1310. An early Gascony retainer would seem a possibility.

Terry Booth
Chicago IL

Footnotes
---------

[1] Wheldale was purchased by the judge and his brother John from Adam de Rotherfield in 8 Rich II, 1384/85. See YAJ Vol 13, page 141. "Between William Gascoigne & John his brother, & John Gaitford, Chaplainse complt, & Adam de Rotherfeld & Meliora his wife deft, of the Mannr of Queldale, the Lands in Sutton.
[2] Testamenta Eboracensia; Vol I page 390.

[Matt Tompkins]

On Sunday, 27 July 2014 17:24:03 UTC+1, TJ Booth_sbc wrote:
> Have you found any contemporary evidence that a 'de Gawkethorp' family held Gawkethorp prior to Gascoigne? Or does the existence of a 'de Gawkethorpe' family also lack support? If there is evidence - and depending on dates - Gascoigne could well have purchased their interest (like Wheldale).
>

No, don't think I have noticed any references to someone called Gawkethorpe holding Gowthorpe, but to be honest I have not researched this thoroughly - John Watson or Chris Bovis are more likely to be able to give a confident answer. I'm not entirely sure that Gowthorpe was even a manor or fee, rather than just a hamlet within the manor of Harewood.

>
> While the early Gascoignes were certainly 'of Harewood' (the larger parrish area that includes Gawthorpe), the manor of Harewood itself (as you know) was shared for many generations of Redmans and Rythers. The will of the chief judge, while requesting burial in Harewood Church, only makes property bequests involving Gawkethorpe ('Gowkthorpe' in 1 place) and Wheldale [Queldale],[1] with no mention of Harewood except for the church.[2] My own preference is to call the early Gascoigne generations 'of Gawthorpe'.
>
> The relationship between de Insula and Gascony predates John de Lisle by some 40 years based upon the following CP VIII:71 entry :
>
> WARIN DE LISLE, son and heir [of Robert] by 1st wife [Mabel Muscegros] . . On the death s.p.s., 10 November 1293, of Isabel de Forz, Countess of Aumale, sister and heir of Baldwin (de Reviers), Earl of Devon, he was found to be one of her heirs. In 1294 he was going to Gascony as yeoman of Thomas Latimer of Warden, but took care to make his claim to Isabel's inheritance.
>
> Warin d. in 1296, when his son was a minor, and Harewood was in the king's hands until 1310. An early Gascony retainer would seem a possibility.
>

Yes, that's a good point.

Matt

[Jakub Mirza Lipka via]

Feudal Aids, Vol VI, records no property held by the Gascoignes in Yorkshire in 1346 or earlier. The earliest mention of the Gascoignes in Yorkshire is for Queldale and Sutton in Osgodcrosse in 1401-2, which properties were obtained, as previously mentioned by Terry Booth, in 1384-5 from the Rotherfelds.

-----------------------------------------


A.D. 1401-02 (p.597) Osgodcrosse
De Willelmo Gascoigne pro j. f. in Queldale, Sutton, Poles, et Austhorp, nuper Agnetis de Rotherfeld . . . xx.s.

A.D. 1412 (p.544) Civitas Eboraci
Willelmus Gascoigne habet ibidem terras etc. ad valorem xx.li. etc.
Nicholaus Gascoigne habet ibidem quietum redditum ad valorem xx.li. etc.

A.D. 1428 (p.278) Libertas de Tykhill
Willelmus Gascoigne tenet j. f. m. et di. in Sprotburgh cum membris,videlicet in Catby, Neuton, Cusseworth, Athewyk, Hamtwayt, Mar cum submembris in Barneby super Done, Bramworth, et manerium de Wodehalle, que Johannes filius Willelmi filii Willelmi quondam tenuit.

A.D. 1428 (p.281) Wapentagium de Osgotcrosse
De Willelmo Gascoyne pro j. f. m. in Queldale et Sutton, quod Johannes de Rotheresfeld quondam tenuit, sicut, etc. Subs. vj.s. viij.d.

De Willelmo Gascoyne pro ij. f. m. in Burgh Walays cum membris, que
Robertus Swelyngton quondam tenuit ibidem, sicut, etc. Subs, xiij.s. iiij.d.

A.D. 1428 (p.283) Wapentagium de Skirake
De Ricardo Arthington, Willelmo Gascoynie, milite, et abbate de Cristall
pro di. f. m. in Arthington, quod Ricardus Arthington quondam tenuit, non
respondent, eo quod nullus eorum, etc.

De Rogero Warde, Willelmo Gascoyne, militibus, Henrico Twaytes,
Francisco Paslewe, Roberto Boteler et Ricardo Wodde pro di. f. m. in Est
Keswyk, non respondent, eo quod nullus eorum, etc. Subs, nichil.

De Rogero Warde, Willelmo Gascoyne, Francisco Paslewe, Ricardo Wodde,
Roberto Boteler pro xvij. car. terre in Gyslay, Haukesworth, et Bayldon,
unde XX. car. terre faciunt f. m. sicut, etc. Subs. v.s.

A.D. 1428 (p.285) Wapentagium de Ansty.
De aliquo proficuo proveniente de iij. car. terre in Ulsyngton, unde x. car.,
etc., quas Willelmus Gascoigne et Johannes Thwaytes tenent separatim, et
quas Mangerus le Vavasour quondam tenuit ibidem, non respondent, eo quod
nullus eorum, etc. Subs, nichil.

A.D. 1428 (p.287) Wapentagium de Clarowe
De aliquo proficuo proveniente de iiij. car. terre in Askwyth, unde xij. car.,
etc., quas Willelmus Gascoigne, Thomas Middelton, et Patricius Marton
tenent separatim, et quas Thomas de Middelton et Patricius de Marton quondam
tenuerunt non respondent, eo quod nullus eorum, etc. Summa {sic) nichil.

De aliquo proficuo proveniente de iij. car. terre in Askwyth, unde xiiij. car.,
etc., quas predicti Willelmus Gascoigne, Thomas Middelton et Patricius
Marton tenent separatim, et quas predicti Thomas de Middelton et Patricius
de Marton quondam tenuerunt non respondent, eo quod nullus eorum, etc.
Subs, nichil.

De aliquo proficuo proveniente de iiij. car. terre in Denton, unde xij. car.,
etc., quas Willelmus Gascoigne et Johannes Thwaytes tenent separatim et
quas Maugerus Vavasour quondam tenuit ibidem, non respondent, eo quod
nullus eorum, etc. Subs, nichil.

A.D. 1428 (p.288) Wappentagium de Yocrosse
De aliquo subsidio v. car. terre, unde xiiij. car. terre, etc., quas Thomas
Moubray quondam tenuit in Burton, non respondent, eo quod dividitur
inter Radulphum Graystoke, Willelmum Gascoigne, Ricardum Goldesburgh,
Willelnium Pensax et Willelmum Wrangle equaliter, ita quod nullus
eorum, etc. Subs, nichil.

A.D. 1428 (p.289) Libertas de Rypon
De aliquo subsidio j. f. m. quod dominus de Graystok quondam tenuit in
NiD, Kelinghale, et Westwyk, non respondent eo quod dividitur inter
Johannem Graystok, Willelmum Gascoigne, Willelmum Plumpton et
Ricardum Thorp equaliter, ita quod nullus eorum, etc. Subs, nichil.

[TJ Booth_sbc]

On Monday, July 28, 2014 3:33:41 AM UTC-5, Matt Tompkins wrote:

<Snip>

> I'm not entirely sure that Gowthorpe was even a manor or fee, rather than just a hamlet within the manor of Harewood.

<Snip>

Lofthouse was apparently another hamlet of Harewood. John Thwaites of Lofthouse m. Isabel Ryther, gr-dau of William Ryther who m. Sybilla Aldeburgh, one of the 2 co-heirs of Harewood manor.

Thanks Matt for opening this topic and for the Mauger Vavasour 'proof of age' record, which places William Gascoigne not only living in Denton in 1332 but owning property there. Chris Bosio should have a great thesis, since there are so many family relationships in the Harewood area to be explored.

Thanks also to Jakub for noting the 1401/02 and 1428 Feudal Aids entries. In 1401/02, Wheldale/Queldale was the only Gascoigne property holding - Wheldale was purchased in 1384/5 from the Rotherfields. Since no Gawthorpe or Lofthouse holdings are shown in Feudal Aides in either year, it is a further indication that Gascoigne and Thwaites were only sub-tenants.

Several of the 1428 feudal aides entries mention properties earlier held by Mauger Vavasour - William Gascoigne was likely a feoffee for the properties, while several Thwaites and Middleton entries likely relate to Vavasour of Denton properties later acquired by them - more about that in the next post.

The 1353 proof-of-age record suggested an overlooked Gascoigne - Vavasour relationship. Vavasour also held some land of de Kyme. A number of documents can be found with both Gascoigne and Vavasour, and William Gascoigne was a feoffee for Denton in 1386 when Bernard Brocas Jr. had it from his mother, Agnes Vavasour.[1] The Brocas family of Beaurepaire - also on other documents with Gascoigne - were important court figures who came from Gascony.

The 1428 feudal aides has both Denton and Askwith held by William Gascoigne and John Thwaites. I was curious how that happened, so below is a Vavasour of Denton pedigree showing its descent in the Vavasour family. It uses contemporary sources cited/transcribed by Baildon [2] and Robert Glover [3]. It differs from Whitaker's 'Loidis and Elmete' pedigree, page 206.

Gen 1. Mauger le Vavasour of Hazlewood, b. perhaps 1115, d. aft 1168 when he was benefactor to Sawley Abbey. Said to be the grandson of the Domesday tenant of 'Hasele' manor, who was also named Mauger. It was held of Ilbert de Lacy.

Gen 2. William le Vavasour of Hazlewood, Justice itenerant, b. perhaps 1145.

Gen 3.1 Robert le Vavasour of Hazlewood, Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, b. perhaps 1170, d. abt 1254. From him descend the Vavasors of Hazlewood.

Gen 3.2 Mauger le Vavasour of Denton and Ackwith, 2nd son, b. perhaps 1172, d. aft 1218, m. perhaps 1190, Agnes de Denton, b. perhaps 1170, heir of Denton and Ackwith of her father Walter.

Gen 4 William le Vavasour of Denton and Ackwith [son of Mauger], b. perhaps 1195, d. bef May 1253, m. perhaps 1215 NN.

Gen 5. Sir Mauger Le Vavasour of Denton and Ackwith, b. perhaps 1220, d. perhaps 1280, m.(1) perhaps 1240 Joan de Duston dau and co-heir of William Esq., b. perhaps 1220 d. bef 28 Oct 1276. He m.(2) Alice NN, d. aft 1290. Sir Mauger held Wolsington of Simon de Kyme.

Gen 6. Sir Mauger le Vavasour of Denton and Askwith, b. bef 28 Oct 1246, d. aft 7 dec 1277 when the king took his homage of his mother's lands, m. perhaps 1265, Agnes NN d. aft 29 May 1280.

Gen 7.1 Sir Mauger Le Vavasour of Denton, b. abt 24 Jun 1265 (age 30 in his father's ipm, had grant of free warren 1292/3), d. aft 1335, m. perhaps 1285, Alice Revell, b. perhaps 1265.

2 John le Vavasour of Askwith, b. perhaps 1268, d. bef 1317, m. by settlement bef 1280, Maud de Stopham dau of Sir William. Granted Askwith by his brother Mauger about 1290. His 2nd son John, b. perhaps 1295, d. abt 1368, was heir of his father and, in 1359, of Weston of his grandfather William Stopham. From him descend the Vavasours of Weston and Askwith.

Gen 8.1 Thomas Vavasour of Denton [eldest son of Sir Mauger], b. perhaps 1290, d. bef 15 Oct 1345. [4]. His son Mauger, b. abt 1332, had his 1353 proof of age witnessed by William Gascoigne, but he d.s.p., his brother William his heir. This line failed when Wm's dau Margaret d.y.

2 William Vavasour of Denton [2nd son of Sir Mauger], b. perhaps 1292, m. perhaps 1310, Agnes Grimston Dau of Sir Roger, b. perhaps 1290, d. aft 1330.

Gen 9. Mauger Vavasour of Denton, son of William, b. perhaps 1312, m. perhaps 1330, Margaret.

Gen 10. Agnes Vavasour of Denton, heir of her father, b. perhaps 1335, m.(1) abt 1348, Sir Bernard Brocas of Beaurepaire, b. perhaps 1335, d. 20 Sep 1395.[5] Agnes later divorced Sir Bernard and m.(2) Sir Henry Langfield.

Gen 11. Sir Bernard Brocas of Beaurepaire and Denton, b. perhaps 1355, attainted and executed 4 Feb 1400 for supporting Richard II. He m. bef 30 Sep 1364, Joan Middleton dau of Sir Thomas of Stockeld.

Gen 12. William Brocas Esq., M.P. of Beaurepaire and Denton, b. abt 1379, d. 29 Apr 1456,[6] m.(1) bef Nov 1398, Sybilla; m.(2) bef Jun 1414, Joan Sandys dau of Sir Walter. Sold Denton.

Terry Booth
Chicago IL

Footnotes
---------

[1] Close Rolls, 1385-89; Richard II Vol 3; nline @ http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=101680. "1 Nov 1386. Westminster. Bernard Brocas the younger knight to Bryan de Stapelton knight, Master Arnald Brocas clerk, John de Chitterne clerk and William Gascoigne, their heirs and assigns. Charter with warranty of the manor of Denton, a tenement called 'Whithalle' excepted."
[2] Generations 1-7 taken from W Paley Baildon; Baildon of Baildon; 1925; pages 505-511 (Vavasour family). Baildon corrects some errors in the Vavasour early pedigree, citing substantial contemporary evidence not repeated above.
[3] Generations 7-12 are noted in a Vavasour of Denton pedigree in Miscellanea Genaeologica; Vol II (1876); page 275 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=PSQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA275 . It is supported by numerous Vavasour documents from Robert Glover's collection, also noted in the book.
[4] CPR; Edw III 1343-1345, page 591
[5] His bio in Roskell History of Parliament 1386-1421, online @ http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/brocas-sir-bernard-1330-1395
[6]His bio also in Roskell History of Parliament 1386-1421, online @ http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/brocas-william-1379-1456

[John Watson]

Dear Terry,

Tank you for the pedigree of Vavasour of Denton. There is something though which puzzles me. After her divorce from Sir Bernard Brocas in 1360, Agnes Vavasour was holding the Vavasour lands in Denton, which seems strange because her cousin, Mauger Vavasour, son of Thomas Vavasour was still living. He died shortly before 5 September 1369, when his heir was his brother William Vavasour. This William died shortly before 12 November 1382, when his heir was his daughter Margaret. She died under age before October 1384.

Mauger Vavasour who died about 1330, had three sons, Thomas, the eldest, William and Richard. I assume that Richard was a clergyman. Mauger appears to have divided his lands between Thomas and William, with Thomas, the elder, getting Weekley, Northamptonshire and William, the younger, getting Denton. That's the only way I can explain how Agnes was holding Denton, even though William, her grandfather, was a younger son.

Agnes and her second husband, Henry Langfield, ended up in possession of Weekley in 1384 after the deaths of Alice, widow of William Vavasour and her daughter Margaret.

Sir Mauger Vavasour (ca. 1285-1330)
______________________I___________________
I I
Thomas (d. 1345) William (d. bef. 1335)
_________I__________________ I
I I Mauger (d. ca. 1345)
Mauger (1332-dsp 1369) William (d. 1382) I
I Agnes m. 1 Bernard Brocas
Margaret (d. 1384) m. 2 Henry Langfield

Regards,

John

[TJ Booth_sbc]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:06:51 PM UTC-5, John Watson wrote:

<Snip>

> There is something though which puzzles me. After her divorce from Sir Bernard Brocas in 1360, Agnes Vavasour was holding the Vavasour lands in Denton, which seems strange because her cousin, Mauger Vavasour, son of Thomas Vavasour was still living. He died shortly before 5 September 1369, when his heir was his brother William Vavasour. This William died shortly before 12 November 1382, when his heir was his daughter Margaret. She died under age before October 1384.
>
> Mauger Vavasour who died about 1330, had three sons, Thomas, the eldest, William and Richard. I assume that Richard was a clergyman. Mauger appears to have divided his lands between Thomas and William, with Thomas, the elder, getting Weekley, Northamptonshire and William, the younger, getting Denton. That's the only way I can explain how Agnes was holding Denton, even though William, her grandfather, was a younger son.

John,

You are correct. There were many property transactions between family members involving Denton and others over the years. Many passed by grant, not inheritance.

The Vavasour Memorandum I cited documents this,[1] but my latin is not good enough to post a translation. A google translation shows in 3 Edw 3 (1329/30), Thomas, elder son of Sir Mauger, 1st bought Denton from his father :

"Ego Mauger' Le Vauasour miles concessi dimisi &e Thomae filio meo Maneria mea de Denton, Askewith, Wolsington cum omnibus suis pertin' ad totam vitam meam Ac. Reddendo inde mihi 100 li sterlyng', ad festa Pentecost' et Sri Martini Ac. Dat' apud Denton anno 3 E. 3."

Soon after, Thomas granted Denton to younger brother William. The latin is:

"Ego Thomas filius Domini Maugeri Le Vauasour militis dedi praedicto Domino Maugero patri meo Maneriu de Denton, Tenend' praedicto Domino Maugero ad totam vitam ipsius Domini Maugeri, et post decessuin ipsius Domini Maugeri volo quod praedicti Manerium remaneat Maugero filio Willelmi Le Vauasour integre im perpetuu. Testibus Dominis Ricardo Le Waleys, Thoma de Midilton, Henrico de Herlyngton militibus, Patrico de Marton &c. Dat apud Wulsington iuxta Tadcaster anno 3 E. 3."

Bernard Brocas and Agnes were granted Denton in 1349 in connection with their marriage, but no inheritance was involved. About 1360, when the couple divorced, I believe the Vavasour documents state she renounced her ownership.

The Brocas family had to have some powerful connections to be granted a divorce, even though the couple had a son and heir. The earlier cited 1386 Brocas deed that William Gascoigne witnessed suggests that the chief judge had some politically connected friends early on. There is an online 1886 book on 'The Family of Brocas of Beaurepaire and Roche Court' if anyone is interested.

Terry

Footnote
--------
[1] Vavasour Memorandum, in Miscellanea Geneaologica et Heraldica; Vol II (1876); pages 270-276. URL = books.google.com/books?id=PSQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270

[John Watson]

Hi Terry,

Here are some more sources for you:

20 May 1360, Writing of Agnes daughter and heir of Mauger Vavasour, after a divorce between Bernard Brocas knight and herself, being a quitclaim with warranty to John de Syngelton parson of Torlaston of the manors of Denton in Querfdale, Scharneston by Pontefract, and two thirds of the manor of Askwyth, with the reversions, rents and services of tenants therein free and neifs, and 4s. of yearly rent arising from lands in Elslak held by Godfrey Dautri, all which premises John had of the gift of the said Bernard and Agnes before the divorce; also a grant that the manor of Wolston by Tadcastre, which Thomas Jeroun and Margaret his wife hold in name of dower for the life of Margaret, with reversion to Agnes, shall remain to John, his heirs or assigns. Dated Westminster, Wednesday after Ascension day, 20 May 34 Edward III [1].

7 October 1360, Westminster. Octave of Michaelmas, 34 Edw. III, 1360. Agnes daughter of Mauger le Vavasour, quer., John de Sengelton, def., of the manor of Sharneston near Wakefeld To hold to Agnes for life ; remainder to Bernard son of the same Agnes and the heirs of his body; remainder to the right heirs of Agnes [2].

7 October 1360, Westminster. Octave of Michaelmas, 34 Edw. III, 1360. Octave of Hilary, 34 Edw. III, 1361. Bernard Brocas, chivaler, by Thomas de Tothewyk, his attorney, by writ of the king, quer., John de Sengelton, def., of the manors of Denton near Ottelay and Wolston near Tadcastre, and of two parts of the manor of Askewyth, and of 4s. rent in Elsclak-in-Craven: To hold, as to the manor of Denton, the two parts, and the rent, now ; and as to the manor of Wolston (which Thomas Geroun and Margaret his wife hold in dower of Margaret, of the inheritance of John), on the death of Margaret, to Bernard for life; remainder to Bernard son of Agnes, daughter of Mauger le Vavasour, and the heirs of his body; remainder to the right heirs of Bernard Brocas ; he gave 200 marks [3].

28 November 1384, Order to John Tyndale, escheator in the county of Northampton, pursuant to (1) an inquisition made by him shewing that an acre of land in Wykele came into the king's hands by the death of William Vavasour and by reason of the minority of Margaret his daughter and heir, who lately died while a minor in the king's ward, and is still in the king's hand, and that the land is held of the king in chief by knight service, and that Agnes the wife of Henry de Langfeld, daughter of Mauger the son of William the brother of Thomas, father of the said William Vavasour, is Margaret's kinswoman and next heir, and of full age, and (2) another inquisition taken by him shewing that Alice late the wife of the said William Vavasour held of the king in chief by knight service, in joint feoffment with the said William, to wit, to them and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to William's right heirs, two-thirds of the manor of Wykele except an acre of land therein, of the gift and grant of Henry Mulso and others made by fine levied in the king's court with the king's licence, and that the premises ought to remain to the aforesaid Agnes as kinswoman and next heir of William because William and Alice died without heir of their bodies, Alice having survived the aforesaid Margaret, to cause the said Henry and Agnes to have full seisin of the said acre of land and two-thirds of the manor aforesaid, as the king has taken the homage and fealty due from Henry by reason of his having offspring by Agnes [4].

10 November 1385, Licence,for 100s. which Bernard Brocas, knight, the younger, has paid to the king, to grant a yearly rent of 20l. from his manor of Wycle to Henry Langefeld the elder, for life, with successive remainders, in tail,to Henry Langefeld the younger, Thomas, William, John, Matilda, Isabella, Margaret, Alice, Ellen and Joan Langefeld, under the condition that if the heirs of the said Bernard shall not have recovered against the said persons or their heirs the manor of Sharneston or any parcel thereof, the said rent shall cease to be paid [5].

Sources:
1. Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward III: volume 11: 1360-1364 (1909), 112
2. CP 25/1/275/124, number 42
3. CP 25/1/275/124, number 49
4. Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 10, 82
5. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard II: vol. 3: 1385-1389 (1900), 44

[Colin Withers via]

Can someone help with this Latin (Memoranda Rolls, 1199). I think I have
the gist of it, but a couple of words baffle Google translate, and my
dictionaries:

Tale breue uenit super scaccarium die sancte Edeldrede.
Gaufrido filius Petri comiti Essex Vic. Mandamus quod demandam que fit
Rogero de Munbugun militi nostro
ad scaccarium de debito quod de eo exigitur et de stauramento de
Pokelinton et debito quod similiter exigitur
a Willelmo Blanchard ipsius Rogeri qui cum eo est in seruicio nostro in
respectum poni faciatis donec aliud
mandatum a nobis habueris. Teste me ipso apud Pontem arch vii die
Septembris per Johannem de Gray.
Istud breue...Vic. habuit summonicionem.

[Matt Tompkins]

On Thursday, August 14, 2014 1:34:47 AM UTC+1, Colin Withers via wrote:
> Can someone help with this Latin (Memoranda Rolls, 1199). I think I have
> the gist of it, but a couple of words baffle Google translate, and my
> dictionaries:
>
> Tale breue uenit super scaccarium die sancte Edeldrede.
> Gaufrido filius Petri comiti Essex Vic. Mandamus quod demandam que fit
> Rogero de Munbugun militi nostro
> ad scaccarium de debito quod de eo exigitur et de stauramento de
> Pokelinton et debito quod similiter exigitur
> a Willelmo Blanchard ipsius Rogeri qui cum eo est in seruicio nostro in
> respectum poni faciatis donec aliud
> mandatum a nobis habueris. Teste me ipso apud Pontem arch vii die
> Septembris per Johannem de Gray.
> Istud breue...Vic. habuit summonicionem.
>

The following writ came into the Exchequer on St Audrey's day [23 June]
To earl Geoffrey fitz Peter, sheriff of Essex.
We order that the demand which was made to Roger de Munbugun, our knight, at the Exchequer concerning the debt which is demanded of him and concerning the stock of 'Pokelinton' and the debt which is similarly demanded from William Blanchard of the same Roger, who is with him in our service, be placed in respite until you receive another order from us.
Witness myself at Pont de l'Arche, 7 September, by John de Gray.

I don't quite understand 'a Willelmo Blanchard ipsius Rogeri' - is there a word missing?

Matt

[D. Spencer Hines]

Part of the indeed quite justifiable fascination here, in addition of course
to the linkage to Prince William and Kate, must stem from the alliterative,
mnemonic and metronomic similarities between the GASCOIGNE Family and the
fictional D'ASCOYNE Family, Dukes of Chalfont, of the delightful British
black comedy produced by Ealing Studios in 1949 -- starring Dennis Price,
Alec Guinness, Joan Greenwood and Valerie Hobson.

The critics say:

"Bosley Crowther, critic for The New York Times, calls it a "delicious
little satire on Edwardian manners and morals" in which "the sly and adroit
Mr. Guinness plays eight Edwardian fuddy-duds with such devastating wit and
variety that he naturally dominates the film." Praise is also given to
Price ("as able as Mr. Guinness in his single but most demanding role"), as
well as Greenwood and Hobson ("provocative as women in his life")."

"Roger Ebert lists Kind Hearts and Coronets among his "Great Movies",
stating "Price is impeccable as the murderer: Elegant, well-spoken, a
student of demeanor", and notes that "murder, Louis demonstrates, ... can be
most agreeably entertaining"."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kind_Hearts_and_Coronets>

Thoroughly Enjoyable...

And Good Hunting to Chris Bovis.

D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus.

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

"When along you came, Helen -- roused, no doubt, / by a dark power bent on
giving Troy some gory, / ... Three times you sauntered round our hollow
ambush, / feeling, stroking its flanks, / challenging all our fighters --
calling each by name -- / yours was the voice of all our long-lost wives" --
The Odyssey (Book 4 lines 307-313); Translation: Robert Fagles

On 11/07/2014 18:04, John Watson wrote:

> There is no contemporary evidence whatsoever that any of the
> Gascoignes or their wives in the first two generations existed. If
> they did exist, then they didn't buy, sell or give away land, appear
> in court cases, commit any crimes, give any land to monastic houses,
> join any wars, have any kind of employment, or in any way bring
> themselves to the notice of the authorities.

From: Colin Withers
Sent: 11 July 2014 18:24
> They didn't leave any wills either. The earliest in the courts of York
begin in 1418, and are fairly regular after that date, but not one from
the 14th century or earlier. I have checked all the unpublished medieval
wills indexes too, with the same result.
>
________________________________________
It does sound as though the William Gascoigne who fathered the chief justice
cannot have been a native of Yorkshire - either that or he had risen from
the very lowest, unrecorded levels of Yorkshire society, which seems a
little unlikely. It might be worth looking for his origins elsewhere in
England - he might have been an immigrant from Gascony, but it is equally
likely that his ancestors had been in England for several generations (I'll
comment in a moment on the possibility that he was a Gascon retainer of John
Lisle of Rougemont). There seems to have been a minor gentry or franklin
family of Gascoignes holding of the Beauchamps in Compton Dundon in Somerset
in the 1340s, for example (CIPM viii, 1336-47, pp. 322, 325). It might also
be productive to look in the areas where the Lisles had estates - Cambs,
Herts and Beds principally - or the Vavasours (see below for why).

I've found a couple of references to a William Gascoigne in mid-14C
Yorkshire IPMs who is probably our man, and which cast some interesting
light on his status and origins.

CIPM x (1352-61), p. 290, the assignment of dower in the manor of Harewode
(which contained Gawthorpe) to Maud, widow of John de Lisle of Rougemont, on
6 April 1356, was made in the presence of William Fraunk of Alwoodley,
Nicholas de Harewod, William Gascoigne and Robert de Ecclesley. These four
would have been present as representatives of John's son and heir Robert de
Lisle or of Maud herself, suggesting that William Gascoigne was a fairly
senior Lisle adviser or retainer.

CIPM x (1352-61), p. 120, the proof of age of Mauger Vavasour, held just
after Midsummer 1353, which reported that he had been born at Denton, near
Harewood in Yorkshire, in June 1332; two of the witnesses were William
Fraunk, aged 48 and more, who in 1332 had been a servant of Mauger's father,
Thomas Vavasour of Denton, and William Gascoigne, aged 44 and more, who in
1332 was dwelling at Denton and had lands etc there. This is surely our
man, the husband of Agnes Frank, and places him in Denton, not Gawthorpe
(though not far from there), in 1332, aged 23 (and so born c. 1309). John de
Lisle's career in Gascony did not begin until later in the 1330s, so it must
be very unlikely that William Gascoigne was a Gascon retainer of his.

Anyway, Chris Bovis at York will be working on this problem full-time for
the next couple of years, so hopefully everything will be revealed one day
soon.

Matt