Re: Apparent CP/DD Conflict (de Lisle)
Robert Forrest
Farrer had much more to say on the different Robert de L'Isles in his "Honors and Knights' Fees."
Vol. 2, p. 172:
"In August 1257 he [Warin Fitz-Gerold] was intending to take part in theWelsh expedition, but died about that time. According to the
evidence of the Quo Warranto rolls he left issue an only daughter Alice, who married Robert de L'Isle (Insula). The identity of this
Robert is somewhat difficult to trace owing to the fact that there was a contemporary Robert, tenant of the honor of Dover in
Lincolnshire, who succeeded his father Otuel in 1250, (60) and held lands in Northumberland, and also a Robert de L'Isle of Stoke
Lyne or L'Isle, Oxon. (Giffard, n. 25). Our Robert was descended from Robert de L'Isle, who married Beatrice de Corneilles, one of
the daughters and coheirs of Ralph the chamberlain of the earl of Richmond; from this Robert descended Robert de L'Isle, who in
1236-38 held land in Great Wilbraham in scoages of the honor of Brittany, and land of the bishop of Ely in Oakington and Westwick,
Cambs. (61) The former Robert was described in 1206 in a plea for the church of Wimpole, Cambs., as grandson of Ralph the sewer of
Conan count of Brittany. (62) He had a plea in 1199 with Robert Le Vavassour respecting land in Westwick, Cambs.; he married in 1213
Rohaise, sister and eventually coheir of John de Wahull, and relict of Robert de Tateshale; she had an inheritance in Cambridgeshire
(63) and died in 1221. (64)
"In 1212 Robert de L'Isle hald of the bishop of Ely 1 fee in Rampton and Cottenham and 1/4 fee in Westwick, Cambs., with 2 fees
in Nedging, Suff., of the bishop of Ely. (65)
"A plea in 1223 indicates that the advowson of the church of Wimpole held by Robert de L'Isle in 1223 had descended from Berenger
de Borray to Gerard his son and so apparently by marriage to Robert; Alan de Bassingeburn, who claimed the advowson, was adjudged
not be the heir of Berenger and was cast in his suit; he was son of Alexander de Bassingeburn. (66) This Ralph may be identified as
Ralph the sewer of the earl of Richmond named above.
"In 1264 the castles of Marlborough and Ludgershall were committed to Robert de L'Isle, and for a fine of 200 marks the wardship
of the land and heirs of William de Aubigny of Cainhoe. (68) In the ensuing year the land of Robert de L'Isle in Kemerton, Gloucs.,
was seized by the earl of Gloucester. (69) In 1269 restitution was made by licence by Robert de L'Isle to Gerard de L'Isle of his
lands which had been given to Robert by reason of trespasses charged against Gerard in the late disturbances. (70) In 1271 Gerard
and Alice his wife had land in Northamptonshire. (71) Robert de L'Isle was constable and sheriff of Oxford for a year and a quarter
until 1271. (72) This may have been the Robert de L'Isle of the Lincolnshire family, tenants of the honor of Peverel of Dover.
"In 1276 Alice de L'Isle held land in Coveney, Cambs.; Robert de L'Isle had free warren in Rampton, Cambs.; (73) Gerard de L'Isle
had certain liberties and warren in Kingston Lisle, Berks. (74) In 1275 Robert held lands in Nedging and Fimborough, Suff., of the
bishop of Ely. (75) In 1279 he held land in Oakington, Cambs., of John de Burdeleis, who held of Robert de Brus as of the honor of
Huntingdon, and 5 1/2 hides in Rampton of the same John, who held of Gilbert Pecche and he of the bishop of Ely. (76) The same
Robert also held of the honor of Brittany in Great Wilbraham, Cambs. In arrington, Cambs., lands of the honor of Richmond were held
of him. (77) In Iffley, Oxon., lands were held of the same Robert in Forest Hill. (78)
"Robert de L'Isle was living in June 1283, but died before the end of 1284, when Warin his son and heir had terms for payment of
the crown debt of his father. (79) Warin held land in Fimborough of the bishop of Ely in 1286, and in the following year claimed
view of frankpledge in Campton and Shifford, and cited charters made by Henry III to Warin Fitz-Gerold, his predecessor. (80) Of
these grants that of free warren in Campton and Shifford was cited by Warin's son and heir Robert in 1330 as having descended from
the first grantee to Warin's son and heir Henry, and from Henry to Warin his son and heir, and from Warin to Robert his son and
heir, and from Robert to Alice his daughter and heir, and from Alice to Warin her son and heir, and from that Warin to Robert his
son and heir living in 1330. (81) The pedigree recited is confused and inaccurate, and seems to begin with the Warin who died in
1159.
"Alice de L'Isle (relict of Robert) was living in 1290, when she acknowledged a debt as due to Warin de L'Isle. (82)..."
= = =
Refs:
60. Excerpt. Fin. ii. 91.
61. Farrer, Feud. Cambs. 121-2, 187, 239.
62. Ibid. 147, 186, 251.
63. R. de Fin. 31, 487; Excerpt Fin. i. 3.73.
64. Ibid. 73.
65. Red Bk. 523, 525.
66. Bracton's Note-Bk. n. 1578.
67. Red Bk. 365.
68. Cal. Pat. R. 350, 390, 395.
69. Cal. Misc. Inq. i. 211.
70. Cal. Pat. R. 356.
71. Excerpt Fin. ii. 538.
72. Cal. Pat. R. 536.
73. R. Hund. i. 49b, 51b; ii. 153.
74. Ibid. i. 9-10.
75. Ibid. ii. 191.
76. Ibid. 449b, 451.
77. Ibid. 491, 556.
78. Ibid. 713b, 831.
79. Cal. Fine R. i. 209.
80. Placit. de quo war. 7, 734b.
81. Ibid. 30.
82. Cal. Close R. 143.
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Robert Forrest
Chris Phillips
Robert Forrest wrote:
> Farrer had much more to say on the different Robert de L'Isles in his
"Honors and Knights' Fees."
Thank you for posting these extracts. Farrer's account, here and earlier in
Feudal Cambridgeshire, seems to be the origin of the false idea that a
Robert de Lisle married Beatrice de Cormeilles. Beatrice was one of the
daughters of Robert, chamberlain of the earl of Richmond.
Farrer also takes a document suggesting that a Robert de Insula was the
grandson of one Ralph the steward (dapifer), and decides that because he was
the recipient of a grant from Conan count of Brittany, he must have been
Conan's own steward (or sewer).
He then welds these two errors into a coherent whole by changing the name of
Beatrice's father to Ralph (from Robert) and by identifying the resulting
"Ralph the chamberlain" with "Ralph the steward".
What the evidence presented by Rosie shows is that the Robert de Insula of
1208 was the grandson of Ralph the dapifer in the direct male line (not
through Robert's mother), and that Ralph was the dapifer not of Conan count
of Brittany, but of the bishop of Ely (confusingly, he also seems to have
held the office of chamberlain to the bishop).
As for the supposed marriage of a Robert de Insula to Beatrice de
Cormeilles, daughter of Robert the chamberlain - the only reason that anyone
thought such a marriage had taken place was a garbled account from the late
13th century stating that a Robert de Insula had lands in Wilbraham in
marriage with a daughter of Niel, Robert's son. But contemporary evidence
shows that it was Ralph the dapifer who was given land in Wilbraham with his
wife. Chronologically, it seems likely that this wife was a daughter of
Robert.
Chris Phillips