Re: "Possible" Plantagenet Ancestry of Anne Gibbs (c.1694-aft.1737) m. 1726 to Nathaniel Rice
wjho...@aol.com
Monck of Potheridge was ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: DAVID BROWN <dbro...@prodigy.net>
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 9:08 pm
Subject: "Possible" Plantagenet Ancestry of Anne Gibbs
(c.1694-aft.1737) m. 1726 to Nathaniel Rice
I'm new to this List, and thought I'd post my first message regarding
the above-named Anne Gibbs. With the assistance of Karen Proudler, I
have been researching the ancestry of Anne Gibbs who married Nathaniel
Rice in 1726 at St. Clements Danes Church in London (per Parish
Marriage Register). Nathaniel Rice was Royal Secretary of North
Carolina and also served as Governor in 1734 and 1752-1753.
I think Anne Gibbs may qualify as a Gateway Ancestor if I can prove she
was the mother of Nathaniel Rice's only known son, John Rice, Sr.
(Nathaniel Rice had a second marriage to Mary Bursey, but as the dates
of death for Anne Gibbs as given above would indicate, I believe that
marriage occurred after 1737).
I am pasting the information below and would be interested in any
comments you may have. I'm still sketchy with some dates, so any help
in that regard would be wonderful. I would like to find more sources
for the ancestry of Anne Gibbs if anyone knows of any tips for this
particular line. Additionally, I
have yet to determine the origins
of Anne Gibbs' husband Nathaniel Rice (his granddaughter married John
Hawks, architect of Tryon's Palace in New Bern, North Carolina). If
anyone knows something about Nathaniel Rice, it would be most
appreciated!
Thank you!
David
Possible Lineage of Anne Gibbs (1694-Aft.1737), putative mother of John
Rice, Sr. of Craven Co., North Carolina:
King Edward IV and Mistress Lady Elizabeth (Waite) Lucy
A1) Arthur Plantagenet, First Viscount Lisle; (died 1542 in Tower of
London) m. 1. Elizabeth Grey, daughter of Edward Grey & Elizabeth
Talbot. Elizabeth Grey was widow of Edmund Dudley. Arthur’s titles
were given by his (half) nephew, King Henry VIII. Arthur’s second wife
was Honora Grenville Bassett
A2) Frances Plantagenet m. 1.John Bassett 2. Thomas Monck
A3) Anthony Monck m. Mary Arscott
A4) Sir Thomas Monck m. Elizabeth Smythe, daughter of Sir George
Smythe; They were also parents of General George Monck, Duke of
Albemarle and one of the eight original Proprietors of Carolina.
George Monck’s titles were given by King Charles II for Monck’s role in
the Restoration of the Monarchy.
A5) Thomas Monck m. Mary Gould
A6) Elizabeth Monck m. Thomas Pride, Son of the Regicide Thomas Pride
(of “Pride’s Purge” Infamy)
A7) Elizabeth Pride m. Oct. 23, 1674 in Norwich to John Gibbs, who was
Gov. of Al
bemarle (North Carolina) 1689-1690. The 1687 will of
Christopher Monck, Second Duke of Albemarle refers to “Mrs. Elizabeth
Gibbs” as a “cousin.” John Gibbs called “kinsman” of the Duke of
Albemarle (Christopher Monck) per British Public Records Office.
Elizabeth Pride Gibbs married again after death of John Gibbs to
William Sherwin, famous Royal Engraver.
A8) Anne Gibbs (1694-Aft.1737) m. August 24, 1726 in St. Clements Danes
Church in London to Nathaniel Rice (d.1753); Nathaniel Rice was
Secretary of the North Carolina Province and Governor of the North
Carolina colony in 1734 and 1752-1753. Colonial Records of North
Carolina refer to Nathaniel Rice as brother-in-law of Martin Bladen
(1680-1746 - son of Nathaniel Bladen & Isabella Fairfax), who married
Mary Gibbs, elder sister to Anne Gibbs. The Pride & Gibbs family
became involved in a nasty dispute with the Earls of Bath concerning
legacies from the Dukes of Albemarle.
A9) John Rice, Sr. (c.1727-c.1778) m. Sarah Carruthers, daughter of
John Carruthers & Sarah Dauley; He was Clerk of Craven Co., NC and
closely associated with the Moore & Dry family (as was his father).
Only concern with Anne Gibbs being his mother is his age when he became
clerk (1745), but believe he was married by that date, and his father
was responsible for appointment of clerks in North Carolina by virtue
of his position as Secretary of the
Province.
A10) John Rice (c.1748-Aft.1810) m. 1773 in Wake Co., NC to Abigail
Sugg, daughter of Joshua Sugg. John Rice lived in Wake Co., NC &
Johnston Co., NC and was appointed Deputy Clerk to the Crown in 1769,
and was first Clerk of Wake County in 1771. He was also a member of
the North Carolina Assembly. He (along with his siblings) disposed of
his grandfather Nathaniel Rice’s land in Bladen Co., NC and Brunswick
Co., NC; He sold a lot in New Bern, Craven Co., NC in 1808 owned
previously by his father John Rice, Sr.
Sources:
Pedigree for Thomas Monck & Gen. George Monck, sons of Sir Thomas Monck
& Elizabeth Smythe: Visitation of Devonshire, 1620, ed. Colby, pp.
188-91
House of Lords: Journal Office: Main Papers 1700-1718: FILE - Main
Papers 2610 - 2615 - ref. HL/PO/JO/10/6/188 - date: 28 Nov 1709 - 5 Dec
1709 item: E. Bath and others v. Sherwin and others - ref.
HL/PO/JO/10/6/188/2615 - date: 5 Dec 1709 [from Scope and Content] e)
29 Dec -- Answer of Anne Gibbs, an infant, by William Gould, her
guardian.
Document #2615b:
“The answer of Anne Gibbs an Infant under the age of one and twenty
years (that is to say) of about the age of fifteen years by William
Gould Doctor of Physick her next friend and guardian and of the
Respondents to the petition and appeal of the Right Hon. William Henry
Earl of Bath an Infant by Sir Joh
n Stanley Barr. His next friend....
Tthe said Respondent (Anne Gibbs) doth say she believed there was a
Bill exhibited (?) in the High Court of Chancery as by the Petition of
Appeal is alledged (?) but this Respondent was not made a party to the
said original Bill and although she was named a Defendant to the Bill
of Revivor (after the death of Elizabeth her mother late wife of the
other Respondent William Sherwin)…..
And this Responded saith that she is one of the coheirs of the most
noble George late Duke of Albemarle (that is to say) she this
Respondent and Mary now the wife of the other Respondent Martin Bladen
being the only children and coheirs of the body of the said Elizabeth
Sherwin dec’d by John Gibbs her former husband dec’d which said
Elizabeth was sister and heir of Thomas Pride Esq. dec’d who was son
and heir of Elizabeth Monke by Thomas Pride Esq her husband dec’d,
which said Elizabeth Monke was daughter and sole heir (upon the death
of her Sister Frances (?) without Hsnd) of Thomas Monke Esq. Dec’d who
was the oldest Brother of the said George late Duke of Albemarle.
Signed: John Godfrey & Wm. Gould”
(Footnote) 10 -- From Ruvigny, Blood Royal of England, Table LXXXII,
note 4: "According to Sanford, Rebecca, daughter and heiress of
William, 7th Lord Chandos, left by her husband, Thomas Pride, a
daughter and heiress, Elizabeth, who wa
s wife of William Sherwin; but a
pedigree relating to the claim of Elizabeth Sherwin as heir to Monk,
Duke of Albemarle, states her to have been sister and not daughter of
Thomas Pride, and the relict of John Gibbs before her marriage with
Sherwin, which is the fact. The statement of Sandford is therefore
erroneous."
The Colonial and State Records of North Carolina - Minutes of the North
Carolina Governor's Council, including documents relating to the North
Carolina/Virginia boundary: April 22, 1728, Volume 2, Pages 730 - 749
“….other Land including Three Thousand One hundred acres formerly
belonging to Governor Gibbs now said to belong to Honoble Mr Bladen one
of the Lords of Trade.”
William and Mary College Quarterly Historical Magazine, Volume XVI,
1907-1908, Page 71: Historical and Genealogical Notes: Gibbs - Tinker
To be sold in Princess Anne County, a tract called "Gibbs' Woods,"
whereof Jeremiah Tinker, grandson (sic – probably should read
“great-grandson”) of Governor Gibbs, now stands seised. His mother
(sic – probably should read “grandmother”) was a daughter and heiress
of said Gibbs. Apply to Mr. James Parker, merchant in Norfolk or to
Edward Foy, in Williamsburg. --- Virginia Gazette, April 7, 1774.
The Colonial Records of North Carolina: Published Under the Supervision
of the Trustees of the Public Libraries, by O
rder of the General
Assembly collected and edited by William L. Saunders, Secretary of
State (Broadfoot Publishing Company 1887) -- Volume 3, Page 139:
{B.P.R.O. AM: & W: Ind: Vol. 22 p. 13}: (Letter from Governor George
Burrington) - North Carolina 1st of July 1731
“I have reason to think this ungratefull youth was seduced by Mr. Rice
Secretary of this Province Coll: Bladen's Brother in Law, before his
comeing everything looked well, he stayed but a short time then
returned to his Family in South Carolina, I have heard from London and
it is commonly reported here that upon any Complaint I shall be
dismissed and Rice promoted to the Government by Mr. Bladen's Interest.”
27 Feb. 1737, New Hanover County, North Carolina Deed Book AB, Page
128: Book James Robinson, weaver of of Cape Fear, appointed his wife,
Agnes Ann Robinson, his attorney. Witness: James Hassell, Martha
Watters, Hannah Rice (Note by DTB: Hannah Rice is probably Ann Gibbs
Rice who married Nathaniel Rice in 1726…consider too that James Hassell
was later an executor of Nathaniel Rice’s estate).
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DAVID BROWN
The marriage information for Anthony Monck and Mary Arscott is derived from the Visitation of Devon (Page 191) as well. The visitation also mentions that her father was Richard Arscott. If anyone has other sources for this marriage or any information which may refute what I've found, please let me know. Additionally, I would be curious if anyone on the List has information pertaining to the Arscott family. I couldn't fine anything about them.
While on the subject of Anthony Monck, I'm pasting something (see below) I found on the UK Search Archives, which mentions Anthony Monck and Arthur Bassett. I find this interesting as I believe they may be half brothers. However, I was also intrigued by the mention of Francis Drake in this record as well, and am wondering if he has some connection to the Monck or Bassett family.
Thanks!
David
UK Archives Information:
CONTACT: Plymouth and West Devon Record Office
MORLEY OF SALTRAM
TITLE DEEDS
DEVON MANORS
BORINGDON WITH BRIXTON AND COLEBROOK
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/5 - date: 20 October 1581
[from Scope and Content] 2) Sir Arthur Bassett, knight, Sir Francis Drake, knight, and Anthony Monke
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/6 - date: 2 May 1582
[from Scope and Content] 1) Arthur Bassett Knight, Francis Drake, knight, Anthony Monck esquire, John Hele esquire, and Marie his wife, and Jerome Mayhowe esquire, and Katherine his wife
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/7 - date: 29 September 1582
[from Scope and Content] 2) Sir Arthur Bassett, Sir Francis Drake, knight, and Arthur Moncke, esquire
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/8 - date: 29 September 1582
[from Scope and Content] 1) Sir Arthur Bassett, knight, Anthony Moncke, gent., Sir Francis Drake, knight
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/10a - date: [1582]
[from Scope and Content] 1) Arthur [Bassett], knight, [Anthony Monck, esquire]
MULTIPLE PROPERTIES
MANOR OF BORINGDON, ETC
FILE [no title] - ref. 69/M/2/613 - date: 23 January 1587
[from Scope and Content] 1) Arthur Bassett, knight, Francis Drake, knight, Anthony Muncke, esquire, John Hele, esquire, and Marie his wife, and Jerome Mayhowe, esquire, and Katherine his wife
--- On Sat, 3/28/09, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Generations A2 through A6 of this pedigree (the Monck/Monk family) can
also be found, in more detail, in Vivian's edition of the visitations
of Devon, available for download at the BYU Library website. Vivian's
Devon also contains a pedigree of Basset of Umberleigh, which confirms
that Sir Arthur Basset was a half-brother of Anthony Monck. There are
also Drake pedigrees in Vivian's Devon, as well as Vivian's Cornwall
visitations (also available at BYU), which may support a relationship
of Drake to Monck or Basset.
DAVID BROWN
DAVID BROWN
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=047-ddx31&cid=17-8#17-8
Copy lease and release relating to the all the Duke of Albemarle's land and property zDDX31/17/8 15-16 Jul 1681
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service
Former reference: DDX31/182
Contents:
Parties: 1) Christopher, Duke of Albemarle 2) Henry, Duke of Newcastle, John, Earl of Bath, Bernard Grenvile esquire. Sir Walter Clarges and Sir Thomas Stringer Property: all the Duke's estates (mentions the manors of, and lands at, Midgham, Berkshire; Broughton and Dalby, Leicestershire; Clewer near Windsor. Norton Disney and Bitchfield, Lincolnshire Honor of Clitherow, and manors of Furneys, Hawkshead, Newbum and Slaidburne, Lancashire; manors of Newhal Old Boreham, Stepleball, Rodnoks, Shorts, Cuton Hall and Ridley Hall, Essex; and Sutton upon Derwent and New Park, York Tile Mills, Berkshire) To confirm his will (23 Aug 1675), the purpose of which was to cut out his heir at law, who was married to the son of a regicide, and too leave his estates between his kinsmen, the Earl of Bath, Sir Walter Clarges, and Mrs. Mary Farewell and Mrs. Elizabeth Rawlinson (daughters of Nicholas, Bishop of Hereford deceased.); his wife; his godson Bevil Grenvile and
Bernard Grenvile esquire
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=047-ddx31&cid=17-9#17-9
Copy will of Christopher Duke of Albemarle zDDX31/17/9 4 Jul 1687
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service
Former reference: DDX31/183
Contents:
Bequests: wife; cousins Sir Walter Clarges, Colonel Thomas Moncke and Henry Moncke; godson Bevile Greenvile; Arthur Farewell (son of cousin Mary, wife of Arthur Farewell); cousin Elizabeth, wife of Curwen Rawlinson esquire, and her eldest son Moncke; cousins Mrs Elizabeth Gibbs and Thomas Pride; servants Property: Mansion house of New Hall, manors of New Hall, Old Boreham Hall, Steeple Hall, and Ridley Hall, and farms of Veednocks and Shorts, Essex. Manor of Grindon, Staffordshire Honour of Cletherow, lordships of Furneys and Hawkshead, and manors of Slaidburn and Newby in Lancashire and York. Manor of Norton Disney, Lincolnshire. Lands in Redriff, Surrey. Manor of Kenton, Devon. Messuages and lands in Chesthunt, Waltham Crosse, North Hall and Endfield in Hertfordshire, and Middlesex. Manor of Clewer in Berkshire, near Windsor. Messuages in Windsor. Finckley Park, Southampshire Manor of Potheridge in Devon. New Park York. Manor of Midgeham and the Tile
Mills, Berkshire. Manors and farms called Cuton Hall and Ridley Hall in Devon and Essex. Manor of Sutton upon Derwent York To be buried near his father in Westminster Abbey, or in church near Potheridge in Devon. Provision for erection of monuments and endowment of almahouse.
--- On Sat, 3/28/09, DAVID BROWN <dbro...@prodigy.net> wrote:
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DAVID BROWN
Thanks!
>From the UK Search Archives (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp):
Kent: Canterbury - Marriage Licence allegations, Dean of Westminster, 1558-1699 and Vicar-General of the Archbishop of Canterbury, 1660 to 1679
Marriage Allegations in the Registry of the Vicar=General of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
1674.
County: Kent
Country: England
23 Oct 1674 John Gibbs, of City of Norwich, co. Norfolk, Esq., Bachr, abt 24, & Mrs Elizabeth Pride, of Newhall, Essex, Spr, abt 17; consent of mother Mrs Elizabeth Pride, Widow; at Hoddesdon or Ware, Herts, or Cathedral of Norwich afsd.
>From the UK Search Archives (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp):
Kent: Canterbury - Marriage Licence allegations, Dean of Westminster, 1558-1699 and Vicar-General of the Archbishop of Canterbury, 1660 to 1679
Marriage Allegations in the Registry of the Vicar=General of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
1662.
County: Kent
Country: England
12 Jul 1662 Thomas Gaudy, of Claxton, Norfolk, Esq., Bachr, abt 21, & Anne Gibbs, of Norwich, sd co., Spr, about 17; consent of father Thomas Gibbs, of Norwich, Gent.; alleged by Thomas Gibbs, of Furnival's Inn, Gent. [who signs "Thomas Gibbs, Junr"]; at St Clement Danes.
wjhonson
The marriage of Thomas Monk to Elizabeth Smith is extracted in the IGI
17 Jun 1601
at Merton, co Devon (Batch M051421 wj)
The oldest of their children I can find right off is
Mary /Monck/
bap 4 Aug 1603 at Heavitree, co Devon (Batch C051062 wj)
Your Thomas Monck was
bap 9 Apr 1607 at Merton, co Devon (Batch C051421 wj)
Then son Nicholas was
bap 28 Jan 1609/1610 at Heavitree, co Devon (Batch C051062 wj)
and daughter Frances
bap Frances /Monck/ at Merton, co Devon (Batch C051421 wj)
Will Johnson
DAVID BROWN
Thanks so much Will. Vivian's Visitations of Devon (referred this past weekend by J. Higgens) gives some additional specifics as well...a few of which are cited as follows:
Thomas Monck (son of Thomas Monck & Elizabeth Smith and brother to General George Monck) married Mary Gould, daughter of William Gould of Hayes on Dec. 24, 1626 at St. Edmund Exeter (source given as St. Edmund, Exeter, Parish Register).
Children of Thomas Monck & Mary Gould (per Vivian's Visitation of Devon):
1. Thomas Monck - A Lieutenant to Colonel Thomas Monck (his father) and "slain on South Street, Exeter" on July 9, 1644 "through some mistake as to the password;" buried July 10, 1644 at Great Torrington.
2. Elizabeth Monck - Baptized Feb. 3, 1628 at St. Thomas by Exeter (source: parish register) and married Sir Thomas Pride (knighted by Cromwell 1657) who died 1658. See Note below.
3. Marie Monck - Baptized May 2, 1630 at St. Thomas by Exeter and died May 13, 1659.
4. Frances Monck - Baptized Nov. 3, 1633 at St. Thomas by Exeter, buried May 15, 1677 at Westminster Abbey; married John le Neve who was buried Aug. 2, 1693 at Westminster Abbey. They had a daughter named Mary who died in infancy.
5. George Monck - Second son, born 1647, died 1669 and buried at Dalkeith.
We know Elizabeth Monck Pride was still living in 1674 when she gave consent for the marriage of her daughter Elizabeth Pride to John Gibbs. Concerning Thomas Pride, I think that Elizabeth Monck actually married the son of the Regicide rather than the Regicide based on the wording of the following document:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=047-ddx31&cid=17-8#17-8
Copy lease and release relating to the all the Duke of Albemarle's land and property zDDX31/17/8 15-16 Jul 1681
These documents are held at East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service
Former reference: DDX31/182
Contents:
Parties: 1) Christopher, Duke of Albemarle 2) Henry, Duke of Newcastle, John, Earl of Bath, Bernard Grenvile esquire. Sir Walter Clarges and Sir Thomas Stringer Property: all the Duke's estates.....To confirm his will (23 Aug 1675), the purpose of which was to cut out his heir at law, who was married to the son of a regicide, and too leave his estates between his kinsmen, the Earl of Bath, Sir Walter Clarges, and Mrs. Mary Farewell and Mrs. Elizabeth Rawlinson (daughters of Nicholas, Bishop of Hereford deceased.); his wife; his godson Bevil Grenvile and Bernard Grenvile esquire
I think the phrase "cut out his heir at law" refers to Elizabeth Monck Pride (1628-aft.1674). Thus, it looks as if she did marry the son of the Regicide although Vivian shows it was the Regicide.
Thanks again!
David
--- On Mon, 3/30/09, wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
From: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Possible" Plantagenet Ancestry of Anne Gibbs (c.1694-aft.1737) m. 1726 to Nathaniel Rice
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Will Johnson
wjhonson
These documents are held at Devon Record Office
Contents:
WESTLEIGH.
Counterpart of lease for 21 years. 10 James I
(1) Anthony Monck of Pouderidge, esq., and Thomas Monck, son and heir
apparent of Anthony
(2) Peter Peeke of Westleigh, sailor.
The kitchen house, 2 plots called the Barlyhaye and the Green Garden
(containing together an acre), and 2 dungpits, with right to build up
stacks of wood or furze in the Great Curtilage, all part of Westleigh
Barton.
Consideration: £12.
Rent: 1s. 6d.
Heriot (payable at end of lease): 3s. 4d.
Lessee to do suit to Westleigh manor court.
DAVID BROWN
--- On Mon, 4/6/09, wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
From: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "Possible" Plantagenet Ancestry of Anne Gibbs (c.1694-aft.1737) m. 1726 to Nathaniel Rice
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com