Saint Louis
José Verheecke
have a look at
http://perso.club-internet.fr/gollum2/stlouisa.html
How far will he get?
I wish him lots of Courage
--
José Verheecke
jose.ve...@pandora.be
Francisco Antonio Doria
>Someone has a go at publishing the descendants of St.Louis:
>have a look at
>http://perso.club-internet.fr/gollum2/stlouisa.html
>
>How far will he get?
>I wish him lots of Courage
So do I, but I've noticed that he doesn't give the Portuguese la Cerdas,
which descend from a bastard son of Don Juan de la Cerda, señor de
Huelva, dec. 1357, and Sol Martínez (someone told me she was a Jewess; I
guess all those seductresses and paramours are Jewesses or Moorish, re
the ancestress of the Sousas do Prado, La Paloma, gggmother of Ferdinando
El Católico or A Pelicana, mother of Dom António Prior of Crato).
We discussed those la Cerdas here at gen-med in 1998, and Henry Soszynski
gave me the paternity of Martim Gonçalves de la Cerda in Portugal (Don
Juan and Sol).
xanana g.
Saint Louis (Louis IX 1215-1270, king of France), had a daughter (Blanche/
Branca) who married D. Fernando de Lacerda (d.o.b. 24/1/1256; died in
1275).
Fernando de Lacerda was the son of Afonso X (1221-1284) king of Castilla
and Leon, German Emperor (1267-1272).
So it seems that this marriage was part of a very important alliance to
keep peace between the «sieged» French kingdom and the Castillian-German
Empire.
According to Felgueiras Gayo, the portuguese Lacerda line of Fernando de
Lacerda and Branca is the following:
1N1 Fernando de Lacerda
1N2 D Afonso Fernandes de Lacerda (+ circa de 1333) married to Mafalda of
Narbonne (dau of the viscount of Narbonne, and Sylvia of Fox).
1N3 D João de Lacerda «duque de Angouleme, conde estável de França»,
married to D Maria (according to Mon Lus: D. Maria Afonso), dau. B. of KING
D. DINIS and Marinha Gomes.
1N4 D Afonso Fernandes de Lacerda, «passou a Portugal no tempo de D
Fernando, recebeu Sardoal, Golegaz, Baralha, Almendre e Sobreira Formosa»,
married to ...??
1N5 Martim Fernandes de Lacerda, «foi fidalgo castelhano, e passou a
Portugal no tempo de D João I(?)» married to Violante Pereira (f.doria:
born circa de 1360), sister of Nun'Álvares Pereira.
1N6 Diogo Nunes Pereira de Lacerda, lord of Sardoal.
My doubts are:
A- Is 1N2 Afonso Fernandes de Lacerda the same as Alfonso de Luna (the
depossessed king)?
B- According to Grand Larousse he had two sons: Louis comte de (earl of)
Talmont, roi de (king of) Canaries; Charles comte d'Angouleme, connetable
de France.
Where does 1N3 Joao (Afonso) de Lacerda fits??
C- «Monarchia Lusitana» (book XVIII) talks about an Afonso de Lacerda who
was depossessed from his lands that were granted by king D Dinis. Who was
this one?
D- According to Armorial Lusitano, the Lacerda that married to Violante
Pereira was Martim GONÇALVES de Lacerda (and not 1N5 Martim FERNANDES de
Lacerda). How does this one connects to the first Lacerda (Fernando)?
E- 1N6 Diogo NUNES Pereira de Lacerda. Why NUNES (son of Nuno)??
Luis K W
Lisboa-Portugal
Francisco Antonio Doria <fad...@rio.com.br> wrote
> So do I, but I've noticed that he doesn't give the Portuguese la Cerdas,
> which descend from a bastard son of Don Juan de la Cerda, señor de
> Huelva, dec. 1357, and Sol Martínez
> We discussed those la Cerdas here at gen-med in 1998, and Henry Soszynski
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Let's clarify:
> Saint Louis (Louis IX 1215-1270, king of France), had a daughter (Blanche/
> Branca) who married D. Fernando de Lacerda (d.o.b. 24/1/1256; died in
> 1275).
> Fernando de Lacerda was the son of Afonso X (1221-1284) king of Castilla
> and Leon, German Emperor (1267-1272).
>
> So it seems that this marriage was part of a very important alliance to
> keep peace between the «sieged» French kingdom and the Castillian-German
> Empire.
Alfonso claimed the German title, but there was another claimant, and he
never received widespread recognition (his competition was Louis's
brother-in-law). As such the political implications were primarily to
the south.
> According to Felgueiras Gayo, the portuguese Lacerda line of Fernando de
> Lacerda and Branca is the following:
> 1N1 Fernando de Lacerda
> 1N2 D Afonso Fernandes de Lacerda (+ circa de 1333) married to Mafalda of
> Narbonne (dau of the viscount of Narbonne, and Sylvia of Fox).
> 1N3 D João de Lacerda «duque de Angouleme, conde estável de França»,
> married to D Maria (according to Mon Lus: D. Maria Afonso), dau. B. of KING
> D. DINIS and Marinha Gomes.
> 1N4 D Afonso Fernandes de Lacerda, «passou a Portugal no tempo de D
> Fernando, recebeu Sardoal, Golegaz, Baralha, Almendre e Sobreira Formosa»,
> married to ...??
> 1N5 Martim Fernandes de Lacerda, «foi fidalgo castelhano, e passou a
> Portugal no tempo de D João I(?)» married to Violante Pereira (f.doria:
> born circa de 1360), sister of Nun'Álvares Pereira.
> 1N6 Diogo Nunes Pereira de Lacerda, lord of Sardoal.
> E- 1N6 Diogo NUNES Pereira de Lacerda. Why NUNES (son of Nuno)??
The patronymic system had mutated and fallen into disuse in Spain at the
time (from what I am told, it continued much longer in Portugal). When
named for relatives, people were often given the full name - given and
patronymic - of that relative. Since Violante was daughter of Nuno
Alvarez Pereira, I suspect that she had a brother Diego Nunez Pereira,
and that Diego Nunez Pereira de la Cerda was named for him.
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
> 1N5 Martim Fernandes de Lacerda, «foi fidalgo castelhano, e passou a
> Portugal no tempo de D João I(?)» married to Violante Pereira (f.doria:
> born circa de 1360), sister of Nun'Álvares Pereira.
> 1N6 Diogo Nunes Pereira de Lacerda, lord of Sardoal.
I estimated the date for the birth of Violante Pereira from a list (out
of primary sources) of the brothers and sisters of Nun'Alvares Pereira in
his bio by Oliveira Martins, where she is given as a full sister of
Nun'Alvares.
Her husband's name was Martim *Gonçalves* de la Cerda. I mentioned the
discussion we had here on his parents in 1998, and the solution given. He
was a bastard, for sure - all la Cerdas were grandees and bore the Don,
and his marriage to the daughter of a clergyman (this was around 1380 or
so) bears witness to his lower standing in the nobility.
>
>
>> E- 1N6 Diogo NUNES Pereira de Lacerda. Why NUNES (son of Nuno)??
>
>
>The patronymic system had mutated and fallen into disuse in Spain at the
>time (from what I am told, it continued much longer in Portugal). When
>named for relatives, people were often given the full name - given and
>patronymic - of that relative. Since Violante was daughter of Nuno
>Alvarez Pereira, I suspect that she had a brother Diego Nunez Pereira,
>and that Diego Nunez Pereira de la Cerda was named for him.
>
>taf
Todd,
Nun'Alvares had a single daughter, the Duchess of Braganza. Violante was
his sister.
chico
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> 10/15/00 4:41 PM Todd A. Farmerie remarked:
>
> >Alvarez Pereira, I suspect that she had a brother Diego Nunez Pereira,
> >and that Diego Nunez Pereira de la Cerda was named for him.
>
> his sister.
Oops. I didn't read that closely enough. The point remains, though,
that Diego Nunez de la Cerda was likely named for a relative by the name
of Diego Nunez, the patronymic long since having lost its original
meaning ("son of Nuno") and use in Spain, given names, first and
patronymic, instead passing "en block".
(Numerous examples of this can be cited. Diego Gomez "de Toledo", one
of the acvisors of Pedro the Cruel, named his only son Pedro Suarez,
after an uncle of the same name. Likewise the toponyms at this time are
not necessarily indicative of paternal descent, families sometimes
adopting maternal names when they were more prominent or more
distinctive than their paternal one. This fluidity of onomastics has
resulted in much confusion among unknowing genealogists, such as the
unfortunate and confused attempts to derive "de Toledo" from Guzman
because a descendant adopted his maternal surname, or the creation of
impossible reconstructions through ignoring the significance of the
patronym at an earlier period, when the original meaning was still
intact.)
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
>The point remains, though,
>that Diego Nunez de la Cerda was likely named for a relative by the name
>of Diego Nunez, the patronymic long since having lost its original
>meaning ("son of Nuno") and use in Spain, given names, first and
>patronymic, instead passing "en block".
Fully agreed.
Francisco Antonio Doria
>Yes,
>
>But the paternity and full Portuguese House of La Cerda and its Spanish
>(and American) branches were established by the late D. David Masnata
>de la Cerda in his brilliant "La Casa Real de la Cerda". The existence
>of a Narbonne marriage is questioned too (regarding Alfonso de la Cerda-
>Mafalda de Narbonne), it seems highly probable that Mafalda was in fact
>a Brienne.
Does he confirm that Martim Gonçalves de la Cerda was a son of Don Juan
de la Cerda and of Sol Martínez?
>
>BTW, La Paloma is just now being discussed in Spain in light of some
>facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously. There
>exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso EnrÌquez
>was, in fact, Blanca de BorbÛn (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
>wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I and
>was raised as a Jew during his childhood.
This looks suspiciously like a Moses-like legend. BTW, Paloma is a
nickname, hum, `with a full bosom.'
>We shall have to wait for
>the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
Please do keep us posted.
>Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
>paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzm·n, Fadrique's
>and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually said,
>but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzm·n family and a
>Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
>though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
>investigations were not published yet (although they have more than 10
>years by now).
>
>Cheers.
Best, chico
jose_ferna...@my-deja.com
fad...@rio.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:
> 10/14/00 4:28 PM JosÈ Verheecke remarked:
>
> >Someone has a go at publishing the descendants of St.Louis:
> >have a look at
> >http://perso.club-internet.fr/gollum2/stlouisa.html
> >
> >How far will he get?
> >I wish him lots of Courage
>
Cerdas,
> which descend from a bastard son of Don Juan de la Cerda, señor de
Jewess; I
> guess all those seductresses and paramours are Jewesses or Moorish,
re
> the ancestress of the Sousas do Prado, La Paloma, gggmother of
Ferdinando
> El Católico or A Pelicana, mother of Dom António Prior of Crato).
>
Soszynski
> gave me the paternity of Martim Gonçalves de la Cerda in Portugal
(Don
> Juan and Sol).
>
But the paternity and full Portuguese House of La Cerda and its Spanish
(and American) branches were established by the late D. David Masnata
de la Cerda in his brilliant "La Casa Real de la Cerda". The existence
of a Narbonne marriage is questioned too (regarding Alfonso de la Cerda-
Mafalda de Narbonne), it seems highly probable that Mafalda was in fact
a Brienne.
BTW, La Paloma is just now being discussed in Spain in light of some
facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously. There
exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso Enríquez
was, in fact, Blanca de Borbón (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I and
was raised as a Jew during his childhood. We shall have to wait for
the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzmán, Fadrique's
and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually said,
but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzmán family and a
Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
investigations were not published yet (although they have more than 10
years by now).
Cheers.
Joe.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jose_ferna...@my-deja.com
> >Yes,
> >
> >But the paternity and full Portuguese House of La Cerda and its
Spanish
> >(and American) branches were established by the late D. David Masnata
> >de la Cerda in his brilliant "La Casa Real de la Cerda". The
existence
> >of a Narbonne marriage is questioned too (regarding Alfonso de la
Cerda-
> >Mafalda de Narbonne), it seems highly probable that Mafalda was in
fact
> >a Brienne.
>
> Does he confirm that Martim Gonçalves de la Cerda was a son of Don
Juan
> de la Cerda and of Sol Martínez?
>
Yes he does, he was the first one that analyzed the testament of Da.
Leonor de Guzmán, don Juan de la Cerda's mother (where she mentions Sol
Martínez "que anda con mi hijo Juan").
> >BTW, La Paloma is just now being discussed in Spain in light of some
> >facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously.
There
> >exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso EnrÌquez
> >was, in fact, Blanca de BorbÛn (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
> >wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I
and
> >was raised as a Jew during his childhood.
>
> This looks suspiciously like a Moses-like legend. BTW, Paloma is a
> nickname, hum, `with a full bosom.' ---> or simply a "dove"
Yes, it does, but taking into account D. Pedro's character and his
possible (and eventual, as it was) reaction ...
> >We shall have to wait for
> >the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
>
> Please do keep us posted.
I will surely do.
> >Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
> >paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzm·n, Fadrique's
> >and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually said,
> >but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzm·n family and a
> >Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
> >though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
> >investigations were not published yet (although they have more than
10
> >years by now).
> >
> >Cheers.
>
> Best, chico
>
Cheers,
Marin-Guzman
jose_ferna...@my-deja.com wrote on 17/10/00 11:28 AM:
This is interesting.
> BTW, La Paloma is just now being discussed in Spain in light of some
> facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously. There
> exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso Enríquez
> was, in fact, Blanca de Borbón (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
> wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I and
> was raised as a Jew during his childhood. We shall have to wait for
> the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
> Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
> paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzmán, Fadrique's
> and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually said,
--------------- I've always understood she was the daughter of the first
marriage (1281) of Juana Ponce de Leon and Pedro Nuñez de Guzman, son of
Maria Giron and Alvar Perez de Guzman, who was the son of Urraca Alfonso
(illegitimate d. of Alfonso IX) and Pedro Nuñez de Guzman (aka Pedro
Guillen, Pedro Nuñez or Pedro Guzman).
___________________________________________________________________________
R. Sanchez Saus, Caballeria y linage en la Sevilla Medieval, Cadiz 1989.
Salvador Moxo, De la Nobleza Vieja a la Nobleza Nueva, 1969.
> but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzmán family and a
> Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
> though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
> investigations were not published yet (although they have more than 10
> years by now).
--------------- Jose, I'd be very interested to know more. Let me know when
it's published.
Regards,
Pedro Marin-Guzman
Francisco Antonio Doria
>--------------- I've always understood she was the daughter of the first
>marriage (1281) of Juana Ponce de Leon and Pedro NuŇez de Guzman, son of
>Maria Giron and Alvar Perez de Guzman, who was the son of Urraca Alfonso
>(illegitimate d. of Alfonso IX) and Pedro NuŇez de Guzman (aka Pedro
>Guillen, Pedro NuŇez or Pedro Guzman).
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>R. Sanchez Saus, Caballeria y linage en la Sevilla Medieval, Cadiz 1989.
>Salvador Moxo, De la Nobleza Vieja a la Nobleza Nueva, 1969.
So, no Jewish blood here? Hummm, this sudden elimination of La Paloma
looks more like a cover-up to me. I'm suspicious...
chico
aredasilva
hola
can u help me with my spanish ancesters ,known and fully studied are my
descendancy from henry III spain ,from de CASTRO galician family
but later i descent from illegitime but recognized greatgrandson of
1ºmarquis of MORTARA ,from the OROZCO family whoes daughter married the
expatriated portuguese MARQUIS OF MONTEBELLO in ,in millanese
thanks
yours
jorge arez da silva
> > >BTW, La Paloma is just now being discussed in Spain in light of some
> > >facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously.
> There
> > >exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso EnrÌquez
> > >was, in fact, Blanca de BorbÛn (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
> > >wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I
> and
> > >was raised as a Jew during his childhood.
> >
> > This looks suspiciously like a Moses-like legend. BTW, Paloma is a
> > nickname, hum, `with a full bosom.' ---> or simply a "dove"
>
> Yes, it does, but taking into account D. Pedro's character and his
> possible (and eventual, as it was) reaction ...
>
>
> > >We shall have to wait for
> > >the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
> >
> > Please do keep us posted.
>
> I will surely do.
>
>
> > >Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
> > >paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzm·n, Fadrique's
> > >and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually said,
> > >but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzm·n family and a
> > >Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
> > >though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
> > >investigations were not published yet (although they have more than
> 10
> > >years by now).
> > >
jose_ferna...@my-deja.com
Marin-Guzman <ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> in article 8sg9ve$hpb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, jose_fernandezblanco@my-
> > facts that seem not to have been taken into account previously.
There
> > exists a high possibility that the actual mother of Alonso Enríquez
> > was, in fact, Blanca de Borbón (Blanche de Bourbon) and the out of
> > wedlock born was given to Paloma, hiding him from his uncle Pedro I
and
> > was raised as a Jew during his childhood. We shall have to wait for
> > the publishing of this investigations, which I hope will be soon.
> > Anyway, the Jewish ancestry seems not to vanish in the air, as in
> > paralell other group has discovered that Leonor de Guzmán,
Fadrique's
> > and Enrique II's mother, was not a daughter of whom are usually
said,
>
first
of
> Maria Giron and Alvar Perez de Guzman, who was the son of Urraca
Alfonso
> Guillen, Pedro Nuñez or Pedro Guzman).
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
___
> R. Sanchez Saus, Caballeria y linage en la Sevilla Medieval, Cadiz
1989.
> Salvador Moxo, De la Nobleza Vieja a la Nobleza Nueva, 1969.
>
Pedro,
La información viene en "Historia Genealógica Argentina" de Narciso
Binayán Carmona (n.9, pag. 242), afortunadamente es una de las pocas
que tengo en mi poder en este momento, desde mi mudanza a los Estados
Unidos. La investigación original la hizo hace más de 10 años Enrique
Hurtado de Mendoza, marqués de San Juan de Ribera. Consultado Binayán
si sabía qué había ocurrido, dijo que ignora las causas porqué no lo ha
publicado, ya que está basado en documentos de primera mano. Esta
investigación es conocida por un muy reducido grupo de genealogistas,
especialmente miembros del C.S.I.C., pero no es entendible porqué
semejante noticia, que es una verdadera proeza, y que destruye una
genealogía tenida por cierta desde hace siglos, no termina de
publicarse. Es deseable que en algún momento se haga. Tal vez la
revista Hidalguía termine haciéndolo.
No sé, probablemente la noción de lo "nuevo" o del "cambio" todavía
puede ser muy resistida.
Veremos que pasa y ojalá salga a luz pronto, igual que la
identificación de la madre de Alonso Enríquez, el I almirante
hereditario de Castilla.
Cordiales saludos.
José Luis.
> > but of a member of a nearly unknown branch of the Guzmán family and
a
> > Moorish. This branch has multiple Jewish and Moorish connections,
> > though was of minor nobility. Anyway, the results of the
> > investigations were not published yet (although they have more than
10
> > years by now).
>
> --------------- Jose, I'd be very interested to know more. Let me
know when
> it's published.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pedro Marin-Guzman
>
>
jfernand...@hotmail.com
arezd...@hotmail.com (aredasilva) wrote:
> dear jose
> hola
> can u help me with my spanish ancesters ,known and fully studied are
my
> descendancy from henry III spain ,from de CASTRO galician family
> but later i descent from illegitime but recognized greatgrandson of
> 1ºmarquis of MORTARA ,from the OROZCO family whoes daughter married
the
> expatriated portuguese MARQUIS OF MONTEBELLO in ,in millanese
> thanks
> yours
> jorge arez da silva
Dear Jorge,
As I have recently moved to the United States almost all my materials
are in transit from Bs. As. to Savannah, and then to Atlanta. Anyway,
I'd like to help you, but I'd need some other facts.
Would you mind writing directly to my personal e-mail above?.
I think I am not posting any more on SGM, just reading postings that
maybe useful for Spanish scholars (which postings are very few
unfortunately). BTW the Galician Castro family is part of my both my
maternal and paternal ancestry as well as the Orozco (not the line of
Mortara, but the line of Escamilla and that of Hita). I don't think I
have much information about the marquisses of Mortara (I do have upto
the 1º marquis and his offspring, but not much further), but we can try
to find what is out there for searching.
Warmest regards.
José Luis.
p/d: If you can read Spanish, but feel comfortable writing in
Portuguese, I can read Portuguese, but not dare to write it, thus We
can use our maternal language to communicate.