Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
Michael o Hearn
>From "Butler Family History" authored by Lord Dunboyne and updated in 1991 published by the Butler Society, Kilkenny, Ireland, the Butler patrilineal ancestor Walter Malet may be identified with Walter de Caen, or at least related by marriage.
Walter Malet was in England soon after the Conquest and died in or about 1088. He was apparently the son of William Malet and Hesillia Crispin. Her father was Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne, whose mother was Hawise (Heloise) Guines, whose mother was Elstrude (Elftrude) de Flanders, whose father was Arnulf I de Flanders (Fleming), whose parents were Baldwin II 'the Bald" Count of Flanders and Aefthyrth (Elfrida) of Wessex, daughter of Alfred the Great.
Michael O'Hearn
wjhonson
wrote:
I'm not certain which "Gilbert" is supposed to be "Crispin" but I
would suggest this is an error by someone attempting to force a
connection here. There were probably two, or perhaps three Engelberts
(Angilbertus) in a row in Brienne. Nominal or actual rulers of that
place. However we have NO document, which tells us the names of any
of their mothers.
I suppose she is supposed to here be the wife of that one sometimes
called Engelbert II. The one called Engelbert I seems to old as he
was already an adult and raiding territory by 951, when Elftrude was
probably just barely entering childbearing years.
Elftrude has no attested children by her marriage to Siegfried,
Seigneur de Guines.
Even were Englebert II to have a nickname "Crispin" it would not pass
to his daughter who should be called Hesillia of Brienne most likely,
provided she even exists, which is doubtful.
Whether or not there was a person named Walter Malet in England, who
died about 1088, I find it unlikely that you can find a reasonable
source, to confirm the name of his mother, as a daughter of Count
Engelbert.
Looks like more wishful thinking and hand waving.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
>
> I'm not certain which "Gilbert" is supposed to be "Crispin" but I
> would suggest this is an error by someone attempting to force a
> connection here. There were probably two, or perhaps three Engelberts
> (Angilbertus) in a row in Brienne. Nominal or actual rulers of that
> place. However we have NO document, which tells us the names of any
> of their mothers.
>
> I suppose she is supposed to here be the wife of that one sometimes
> called Engelbert II. The one called Engelbert I seems to old as he
> was already an adult and raiding territory by 951, when Elftrude was
> probably just barely entering childbearing years.
>
> Elftrude has no attested children by her marriage to Siegfried,
> Seigneur de Guines.
>
> Even were Englebert II to have a nickname "Crispin" it would not pass
> to his daughter who should be called Hesillia of Brienne most likely,
> provided she even exists, which is doubtful.
>
> Whether or not there was a person named Walter Malet in England, who
> died about 1088, I find it unlikely that you can find a reasonable
> source, to confirm the name of his mother, as a daughter of Count
> Engelbert.
>
> Looks like more wishful thinking and hand waving.
>
> Will Johnson
I have to post an "recte" on my original message.
You still do not have the descent you hope for, but the error here is
other than what I stated above.
I'll be posting the full correction in few minutes hopefully.
Will Johnson
Michael o Hearn
(Clare Genealogy website)
"In 1937, the Hon. Patrick Butler (now lord Dunboyne) wrote a monograph
in which he summarised the various versions of the early ancestry of
the Butler family. This was followed in 1939 by Mr. T. Blake Butler’s
Origin of the Butlers of Ireland. In this erudite and well-documented
paper, Mr. Butler, showed that Theobald FitzWalter’s father, Hervey
Walter (with whom the Ormonde pedigree commences in Burke’s
Peerage) was grandson of Walter, who is mentioned in Doomsday Book
as holding 27 manors in Norfolk and Suffolk, and who, Mr. Butler surmised,
was connected with the Malet family. Further researchers made by him
have confirmed this conjecture, and established that the above-mentioned
Walter was in fact Walter de Caen, whom genealogists identify as a brother
of William Malet, the great East Anglian landowner who fought at Hastings,
and is said to have been the only companion of the Conqueror who was
half English. It was perhaps for this reason that he was entrusted by
William with the task of burying the body of King Harold on the seashore
after the battle. As a result of Mr. Blake Butler’s researches,
the house takes its place among the very few families in the Peerage
who can trace their ancestry in the male line to the Norman Conquest."
I tend to agree that there may have been at least one additional generation. Here are some more details from Smith-Tilton Genealogy:
Haloise de GUINES
F, b. c 950
Dau. of Rodolph, count of Guynes and Boulogne, by
Roselle de Saint-Paul; m. Ansgothus Cripinus; mother of Herluin,
Gilbert Crispin, Odo, Roger, and Rollo/Rolf. [Falaise Roll, p. 67]
Gilbert
Crispin names Herluin's father Ansgot of Danish origin and his mother
Héloise, a relative of the dukes of Flanders. Héloise was said to have
been the granddau. of the count St. Paul, probably Herbert (d. 951),
obscure bro. of Baldwin III, count of Flanders, descended from the
kings of Italy, Charlemagne and Alfred the Great. [Falaise Roll, p. 150]
Hesila CRISPIN
F, b. c 1020, d. a 1086
Dau. of Gilbert Crispin I, baron of Tillieres; m.1. William Malet and
had several children; m.2. Alured de Lincoln. [Falaise Roll, p. 27, 43.
127-8]
Another possibility would be Strongbow's descent from Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne and his wife Gunnora d'Anou.
The ancestor in question may be Pierce Butler of Carlow in the 18th century, but not the Pierce Butler of the junior Ormonde branch who immigrated to America and settled in North Carolina before the Revolution. If this ancestor was descended from Butlers of Carrick, which seems likely to me, going back to the 14th century, he would then also have de Clare ancestry.
wjhonson
Firstly, this affects the ancestry of Diana, Sarah, etc. And also the
ancestry of James Cudworth, and millions of others by the way. I'm
just stating those in which I'm interested.
Robert Malet founded Eye Priory for the souls of his father William
and his mother Hesilia, so we can be certain that such a couple did
exist. Hesilia evidently became a nun there, so probably outlived
William. They were both living in 1110 when deprived of their lands.
Robert was an adult under William I and was Slain at the Battle of
Tinchebrai 1106. So that gives us a tighter handle on *when* these
people lived. Here is what Cawley has to say
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_ftnref1807
I do not believe that there were two William Malet's in a row. I
think this is the same person.
If you trace back, taking Esilia back to her parents, you'll find that
Gilbert Crispin is not the same person as the man who was de Brionne
(not Brienne) and Count d'Eu and was murdered Mar 1040.
Rather, this Gilbert Crispin Your line, is an unknown person,
certainly MUCH younger than the other Gilbert "Crispin" Count d'Eu.
The wife of your Gilbert Crispin was Gunnora the daughter of Baldric
who was a new man in that area, and his ancestry is unknown. He
married the niece of the other Gilbert Crispin Count d'Eu (d. 1040),
the name of Gunnora's mother is unknown.
It is not known whether Gunnora's maternal grandparent, sibling of
Gilbert Crispin Count d'Eu was a male or a female. The relationship
only specified as "niece of" which could mean either. In fact, it
could probably also mean a niece of Gilbert's wife! (Who is also
unknown.)
The common ancestor here was (provided we assume "niece" means of the
blood, not by marriage) Geoffrey, Count of Brionne and Eu (after 996)
who is given as died in 1015.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc243182184
He was the son of Richard, Duke of Normandy by his mistress, who
probably was Gunnora, which would explain, I suppose, that name given
to this, her assumed great-great-granddaughter.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
wrote:
>
> I tend to agree that there may have been at least one additional generation. Here are some more details from Smith-Tilton Genealogy:
>
> Haloise de GUINES
>
> F, b. c 950
>
>
> Dau. of Rodolph, count of Guynes and Boulogne, by
> Roselle de Saint-Paul; m. Ansgothus Cripinus; mother of Herluin,
> Gilbert Crispin, Odo, Roger, and Rollo/Rolf. [Falaise Roll, p. 67]
>
> Gilbert
> Crispin names Herluin's father Ansgot of Danish origin and his mother
> Héloise, a relative of the dukes of Flanders. Héloise was said to have
> been the granddau. of the count St. Paul, probably Herbert (d. 951),
> obscure bro. of Baldwin III, count of Flanders, descended from the
> kings of Italy, Charlemagne and Alfred the Great. [Falaise Roll, p. 150]
>
> Hesila CRISPIN
>
> F, b. c 1020, d. a 1086
>
> Dau. of Gilbert Crispin I, baron of Tillieres; m.1. William Malet and
> had several children; m.2. Alured de Lincoln. [Falaise Roll, p. 27, 43.
> 127-8]
>
> Another possibility would be Strongbow's descent from Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne and his wife Gunnora d'Anou.
>
>
If by "Smith-Tilton Genealogy" you are referring to this
http://www.mindfreedom.net/gen/t-s-p/p124.htm#i8922
where they use as their source this
http://www.genealogical.com/products/Falaise%20Roll/1210.html
A book called "Falaise Roll" where they write biographies for each
person inscribed on the Falaise Roll (which is just a list of names).
They don't know what they're talking about. It's just dreaming.
Baldric married the niece of Gilbert, and their daughter certainly did
not marry her second cousin! At any rate, it's a confused attempt to
try to explain why her husband is called Gilbert Crispin, when the
older guy was also called Gilbert "Crispin". But that doesn't work.
It's just hand-waving to fill in a gap we don't know, and probably
can't know.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Gilbert "Crispin" who was of Brionne but Count d'Eu (and who was
murdered Mar 1040) was not the husband of any Gunnora d'Anou. The
name of his wife is unknown.
I just want to point out another issue. The co-AUTHOR of this modern
book Falaise Roll is called "Gilbert Crispin" makes you want to hunt
him up and beat the tar out of him doesn't it? But he's dead.
So when they say above that "Gilbert Crispin" says this or says that,
they are referring to that modern author, not the guy from a thousand
years ago. Who says nothing. That we know about. And what some
modern guy says, without citing a credible source, about someone who
lived a thousand years earlier... is worthless. Just more confusion.
Will Johnson
lostcopper
wrote:
Awhile back I was a member of the Butler Society and corresponded with
the late Paddy Butler, Lord Dunboyne (as I am related to the Dunboyne
branch). I can't point to anything so fancy as a publication at the
moment (since my membership has lapsed), but my recollection is that
in the years just prior to Dunboyne's death, he did not make specific
statements proposing a Malet connection of any sort, but just
acknowledged that a connection to William Malet was noted by some
researchers. That connection, if I remember correctly, was that Hervey
Walter was thought to have been William's son or brother. I don't
recall hearing about Walter Malet in connection to the Butlers.
Bronwen
FDP...@aol.com
Dear Will and Michael
Perhaps the following will help you out in this Malet matter from K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants Book.
On page 40 she charts the descendants of William I Malet m. Esilia
Crispin. Their chilren:
1. Robert I m (1) .Matilda and had William II Malet who had William a
monk, Mathew de Graville, and Robert. He married (2) Emeline and had
Robert II of Curry Malet who had William who d.1169 m. Eugenia Picot.
Robert II's brother by Emeline was Hugh a monk.
2. Gilbert Malet
3. Durand Malet father of Ralph and Walter
4. NN dau m. Turold the sheriff and had Lucy m. (1) Ivo Taillebois (2)
Roger Fitz Gerold and had William de Roumare and (3) Ranulf II of
Chester
5. NN m. Alfred of Lincoln and had Alfred II and Alan of Lincoln.
Alfred m. heiress of Hugh Fitz Grip and had Robert of Lincoln. Alan
had (1) Margaret m. Ralph de Bayeux (2) NN m. Humphery d"Albini
6. Beatrice Malet m. William d'Arques who had 1. Emma m. (1) Nigel de
Munville (2) Manasses et of Guisnes. 2. Matilda m. William de
Tancarville
7. ?Judith m. Herve Bituricer and had Esila m. William Pecche
Also from Domesday Descendants 1022 and 1023
Malet, Willelm
Of unknown parentage, he was described by Guy d' Amiens as part Norman
part English and as 'compater Heraldi', which indicates either
spiritual affinity or close companionship with Harold Godwinsson
(Carmen de Hastingae Proelio, 2nd, edn, p. 34). His father was
probably his predecessor as lord of Graville and tenant of the
Giffards in numerous other fiefs in the same region. Legends
associating his son-in-law Turold the Sheriff with Godiva of Mercia,
mother of Harold's wife, probably indicate a relationship between
William's mother and the earls of Mercia or their wives. A strong
association of William and his family with Lincolnshire suggest that
his English roots lay there. Between 1060 and c.1066 William occurs
with William I in a number of charters relating to the abbeys of
Montivilliers and Jumieges (Fauroux, 89; CDF 329). He was associated
with the abbey of Preaux in the Lieuvin, of which he was given the
fellowship by Abbot Ansfrid in 1060, and with the abbey of Bee, which
later mistakenly identified him with his descendant, a monk of the
same name. His interests in the region of Lisieux probably originated
in his marriage to Esilia, daughter of Gilbert I Crispin, castellan of
Tillieres in the Vexin. He fought at Hastings and was soon credited
with having been ordered to bury Harold's body on the sea-shore;
whether he had anything to do with Harold's burial is uncertain, but
it now seems clear that the body was buried at the church Harold
founded at Waltham. In 1068 William became castellan of the first
castle at York and sheriff of Yorkshire. In September 1069 the city
was attacked by Danes. Briefly held captive, William, his wife, and
their younger children were among the few to escape alive (Ord. ViI.
2, 178, 222; Symeon of Durham, Opera Omnia, ii. 188). He lost the
shrievalty of York and the land associated with it soon afterwards,
and was thereafter occupied in suppressing the fenland revolt led by
Hereward the Wake. Domesday Book makes it clear that he died in the
campaign, probably in 107l. At his death, the bulk of his wealth lay
in the vast lordship (the honour of Eye) granted to him in East
Anglia, principally in Suffolk (where he had a castle and a market at
Eye), but also in Norfolk, Essex, Surrey, Bedfordshire and
Nottinghamshire. His heir was his eldest son Robert, who occurs with
his father from shortly before 1066. Of his numerous children few can
be identified. He had another son Gilbert, a daughter Beatrice, wife
of WilIiam d' Arques, and a daughter who married Alfred of Lincoln.
Another daughter married Turold the Sheriff; their daughter Lucy
became the principal heir of the family's Lincolnshire estates. Close
examination of Domesday Book strongly indicates that Durand Malet was
another of William's sons and not his brother, as is often stated. K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Book and the Malets', Nottingham Medieval
Studies xli (1997), 13-5l. See also the recent article by Peter Newman
in Anglo-Norman Studies xxii (2000).
Brown, Eye Priory Cartulary (1992-94), no. 1
Malet, Willelm II
William II Malet, occurs in English documents c.1100 until his
forfeiture in or around 1110. He continued to hold the family's Norman
estates at GravilleSainte-Honorine until c.1121, when his son William
was a monk of Bee. Despite the vicissitudes of the English honour of
Eye, which he forfeited in 1110, there is little doubt that he was a
son of Robert I Malet of Eye and brother of another Robert. He was
succeeded by Matthew de Graville, probably his younger son. Father
also of Robert (Rec. des actes d 'Henri If, ii, CXXX, dated 1159). His
widow (possibly his second wife) was Oliva, daughter of Rabel de
Tancarville and Theophania of Richmond (see Fees, 1044).
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, IV, pp. 148-49, no. II; Gibbs, Early
Charters of St Pauls (1939), no. 40
Hope this helps.
Dix Preston
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael o Hearn" <mohearn_b...@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
Further research has uncovered a possible line of descent.
>From "Butler Family History" authored by Lord Dunboyne and updated in 1991
>published by the Butler Society, Kilkenny, Ireland, the Butler patrilineal
>ancestor Walter Malet may be identified with Walter de Caen, or at least
>related by marriage.
Walter Malet was in England soon after the Conquest and died in or about
1088. He was apparently the son of William Malet and Hesillia Crispin. Her
father was Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne, whose mother was Hawise
(Heloise) Guines, whose mother was Elstrude (Elftrude) de Flanders, whose
father was Arnulf I de Flanders (Fleming), whose parents were Baldwin II
'the Bald" Count of Flanders and Aefthyrth (Elfrida) of Wessex, daughter of
Alfred the Great.
Michael O'Hearn
== Dear Michael,
Siegfried R�sch in his Caroli Magni Progenies, Page 171
Elftrude of Flanders, daughter of Arnulf I and Adela de Vermandois, was
married to Siegfried Seigneur de Guines who died in 965.
They had only one child, Ardolf/Artolf born posthumously in 966, he died
after 996 and he was Count of Guines, he married a Mathilde (origins
unknown). As this is the last generation displayed in this book no
indication is given whether he had children.
Do you remember where you found the indication that Hawise (Heloise) Guines
was a daughter of this Elftrude?
With best wishes for 2010.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
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Michael o Hearn
It is on the pedigree "Jamie Allen's Family Tree & Ancient Genealogical Allegations" listing Hawise (Heloise) Guines (958?-?) as daughter of Siegfried de Guines and Elstrude de Flanders.
As pointed out previously, the Smith-Tilton Genealogy also has Héloise as possibly descended from an obscure brother of Baldwin III, Count of Flanders, thereby adding one generation, but lists her father as Godfrey de Bec, son of Grimaldus I Prince of Monaco (this line has been disputed) and Crispina of Normandy, daughter of Rollo and Poppa de Baueaux; or alternatively has Godfrey as an illegitimate son of Richard I Duke of Normandy.
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Fri, 1/1/10, Leo <leov...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
From: Leo <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
To: "Michael o Hearn" <mohearn_b...@yahoo.com>, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 2:21 PM
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael o Hearn" <mohearn_b...@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
Further research has uncovered a possible line of descent.
> From "Butler Family History" authored by Lord Dunboyne and updated in 1991 published by the Butler Society, Kilkenny, Ireland, the Butler patrilineal ancestor Walter Malet may be identified with Walter de Caen, or at least related by marriage.
Walter Malet was in England soon after the Conquest and died in or about 1088. He was apparently the son of William Malet and Hesillia Crispin. Her father was Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne, whose mother was Hawise (Heloise) Guines, whose mother was Elstrude (Elftrude) de Flanders, whose father was Arnulf I de Flanders (Fleming), whose parents were Baldwin II 'the Bald" Count of Flanders and Aefthyrth (Elfrida) of Wessex, daughter of Alfred the Great.
Michael O'Hearn
== Dear Michael,
Siegfried Rösch in his Caroli Magni Progenies, Page 171
Leo
I hope (think) I am correct to say that Siegfried Rösch is a reliable researcher. Does the "Jamie Allen's Family Tree & Ancient Genealogical Allegations" give sources? Rösch has a considerable sources list mentioned in his book. As "Jamie Allen" and "Smith-Tilton" give different origins for Hawise/Heloise this places her ancestry in an awkward position and makes it very uncertain. What a pity.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Thu, 12/31/09, lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com> wrote
Awhile back I was a member of the Butler Society and corresponded with
the late Paddy Butler, Lord Dunboyne (as I am related to the Dunboyne
branch). I can't point to anything so fancy as a publication at the
moment (since my membership has lapsed), but my recollection is that
in the years just prior to Dunboyne's death, he did not make specific
statements proposing a Malet connection of any sort, but just
acknowledged that a connection to William Malet was noted by some
researchers. That connection, if I remember correctly, was that Hervey
Walter was thought to have been William's son or brother. I don't
recall hearing about Walter Malet in connection to the Butlers.
Bronwen
Michael o Hearn
Additional research has led me to the following sources:
Lambert d'Ardres, La chronique de Guînes et Ardres, 1203.Maur-François Dantine, Charles Clémencet, Nicolas Viton Saint-Allais, Ursin Durand, François Clément, L'art
de vérifier les dates des faits historiques, des chartes, des
chroniques et autres anciens monuments depuis la naissance de notre
seigneur, 1818Société des Antiquaires de la Morinie, Le livre des usaiges et anciennes coustumes de la conté de Guysnes, 1856
Voir aussi Comté de Guînes
Guînes ou Ghisnes ou Guynes ou Guysnes (en latin Ghisnae), ville du Nord-Pas-de-Calais à deux lieues de la mer. Comté qui comprenait Ardres, Hardewic, Brédenarde, Tornehen et le port de Witsan, douze baronnies et autant de pairies.
965: Siegfried Ier de Guines dit le Danois (°v.940 †ap.965), 1er comte de Guines. Épouse en 964, Elstrude de Gand, fille de Arnoul Ier de Flandre, et de Alix ou Adèle de Vermandois. Devient comte de Guînes, vassal du comte de Flandre.
Ardolf Ier de Guînes (°v.966 †ap.996)Platts, Beryl. The Scottish Hazard: Flemish Nobility and their Impact on Scotland, (1985)
Arnulf I of Flanders had a son Egbert in addition to Baldwin.
>Dear Michael
>I hope (think) I am correct to say that Siegfried Rösch is a reliable
researcher. Does the "Jamie Allen's Family Tree & Ancient
Genealogical Allegations" give sources? Rösch has a considerable
sources list mentioned in his book. As "Jamie Allen" and "Smith-Tilton"
give different origins for Hawise/Heloise this places her ancestry in
an awkward position and makes it very uncertain. What a pity.
>With best wishes
>Leo van de Pas
>Canberra, Australia
Michael O'Hearn
Michael o Hearn
First from Hesilia Crispin, her father Giselbert Crispin, son of Gilbert Crespen Seigneur du Bec, son of Crespinus Ansgot and Louise de Guisnes who was daughter of Raoul de Guisnes (997-1036) by Rosela de st. Pol*, son of Artulf de Guisnes by Matilda, Sigfrid 'le Danois' (+965) and Elstrude de Flanders (932-970) who was a daughter of Arnulf de Flanders by Alice de Vermandois, son of Baldwin II of Flanders and Aefthryth (Elfrida) of Wessex daughter of King Alfred.
Secondly from Hesilia Crispin, daughter of Giselbert Crispin and Gunnora who was a daughter of Baldric "Teutonicus" and Miss de Brienne neptis de Gilbert 'Crispin' Count of Brienne and Eu and grandaughter of Geoffrey de Bec (+1015) and Héloise (Hawise) daughter of Elstrude de Flanders (932-970), or alternatively granddaughter of Elstrude's brother Egbert, they being daughter and son of Arnulf de Flanders as above.
*Reference: L'art de vérifier les dates des faits historiques, des chartes, des chroniques et autres anciens ... par Maur-François Dantine, Charles Clémencet, Saint-Allais (Nicolas Viton), Ursin Durand, François Clément
Michael O'Hearn
wjho...@aol.com
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:
Both lines are fantasy, and it's doubtful that even the book you cited
(writen in 1819) states what you're claiming it states, or that you've even read
it!
Can you read French Michael?
Please point at the exact page in this multi-volume tome that claims either
of these lines.
There is no source that tells us who the parents of the senior Gilbert
Crispin were. No source, none. Zero. Zed. Nilch.
And you're confused about exactly how Esilia connects upwards. Par for the
course. You have yet to respond to my cogent post about that very fact.
Will Johnson
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Sat, 1/2/10, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
From: wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
To: mohearn_b...@yahoo.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com, leov...@netspeed.com.au
Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 4:10 PM
>The same problem remains. There is no authentic contemporary (or even near contemporary) evidence to support the connection as drawn.
>The issue here is not whether Elftrude was married or to whom, the issue is what children she did or didn't have. And whether those children, if any, were themselves married to anyone and to whom.
>For that you need contemporary or near-contemporary sources, or at least accessible sources which cite those primary sources. Or at least credible sources...
>Can you read what this long French sentence actually states ?
>Will
wjho...@aol.com
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:
> Mention has been made of the murder of Gilbert Crispin, Count of Brionne
> and Eu, in the year 1040. Following this murder, his sons and his brother
> Baldwin were conveyed by their friends to the court of Baldwin, Count of
> Flanders. The question may arise, why Flanders? It has been suggested that
> Gilbert's mother was a relative of the Count of Flanders. Gilbert was
> murdered in defense of Duke William the bastard who later married Matilda of
> Flanders, We need look no further than to Gilbert's mother Hèloise, a
> relative of the Dukes of Flanders. What further proof is needed?>>
>
Is this is really you think the proper way to do genealogy, I'm simply
amazed. Making up a Heloise who does not exist in any contemporary document, in
order to supply a fictitiously known wife, and then to supply her with
parents who are not known to have had any daughter at all, let alone one called
Heloise and let alone one who was married to the Count of Eu!
That's a lot of supposition for one paragraph!
Doesn't it seem more likely that if such a connection existed that it would
be explictely stated somewhere in some surviving chronciler or some
surviving legal transaction? We do not know the name of Gilbert's wife. We do not
know who her parents are, or even what region of the world they are
supposed to have been from for that matter. We've received exactly zero about her,
or her connections. Making things up, to force-fit a nice simple solution,
is just not genealogy.
Will Johnson
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Sat, 1/2/10, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
From: wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
To: mohearn_b...@yahoo.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com, leov...@netspeed.com.au
wjho...@aol.com
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:
> My sources list Hawise/Hèloise Guines as Crispin's mother, wife of
> Godfrey de Bec aka Geoffrey de Brionnes. We do not know who Gilbert's wife was,
> nor do we know the identities of the parents of of Baldric's wife, neptis
> de Crispin, of whom Hesilia Crispin wife of William Malet actually descends.>
> >
But your sources are wrong. I've asked you before to please point at the
exact page, in any of your sources, which states that Heloise was Crispin's
mother. Please be specific and exact. And by "source" here I'm referring to
an authentic ancient authority, not a modern-day compiled family tree by
some amateur. And I'm not asking for a ten volume source in French who might
say it on some page within this enormous mass, but the actual page on which
they actually say it.
If you cannot find an actual accepted authority who states this, then you
should remove it.
Will Johnson
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
wjho...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/4/2010 4:01:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:
----------------------------
Aside from the already stated fact that Gilbert's parents are unstated in
any contemporary document. So this article from 1832 is still just a guess
as to who his parents might be. And it's more likely than not, to be a bad
guess based simply on the similarity of the name.
Any novel connection like this, needs either a contemporary attestation, or
a detailed argument.
It's quite unlikely that he would have been allowed to marry his first
cousin.
wjho...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/4/2010 10:44:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mohearn_b...@yahoo.com writes:
Apparently Lucas D'Archery in the collected works of Lanfranc (Migne,
1854) does not have Gilbert Crispin of Bec descended from Gilbert Crispin of
Brionne. There is no need for a dispensation after all.
The modified chart actually shows Crispinus of Bec married to Heloise,
daughter of the count of Guynes and Boulogne, Crispinus father of Gilbert of
Bec who flourished circa 1041 after Gilbert of Brionnes had already died,
father of Gilbert Crispen, Lord of Thillieres, who fought at the battle of
Hastings, being the father of Hesilia who married William Malet.>>
Yes someone has taken Heloise, the mother of the first Abbot of Bec, who
became a serving sister to the colony, and turned her into a titled noble.
However it still won't wash, and you still have not provided any actual
evidence.
The simple fact that an error has been repeated by ten people does not make
it true.
Will
Michael o Hearn
The modified chart actually shows Crispinus of Bec married to Heloise, daughter of the count of Guynes and Boulogne, Crispinus father of Gilbert of Bec who flourished circa 1041 after Gilbert of Brionnes had already died, father of Gilbert Crispen, Lord of Thillieres, who fought at the battle of Hastings, being the father of Hesilia who married William Malet.
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Mon, 1/4/10, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
From: wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
To: mohearn_b...@yahoo.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com, leov...@netspeed.com.au
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 4:04 PM
In a message dated 1/4/2010 4:01:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
wjhonson
wrote:
> The arms of Ormonde illustrate a primary patrilineal descent of Theobald Walter le Boteler from the family of Glanville, the arms being quartered with first and third same as the earlier Glanville arms, or a chief indented azure. Second and fourth appear to be derived from the arms of Malet, Sire of Graville, which are gules three buckles or, except that the buckles are replaced by cups on the Butler arms signifying the office of wine steward in Ireland beginning during the reigh of King John. This similarity also confirms the matrilineal descent of the Butlers from Walter Malet and Hesilia Crispin.
>
> Michael O'Hearn
What source tells you that the family of Glanville who you claim is
anciently behind the Boteler's had arms at all, and what they were?
Secondly what source (most likely mythical) tells you what the arms
were for the Malet family living in the 11th century ? (!)
Thirdly what source gives a "matrilineal descent" (sic) of the Butlers
from "Walter" Malet (sic) and his wife Hesilia ?
Will Johnson
Renia
>>From "The Butlers of County Clare" by Sir Henry Blackall
> (Clare Genealogy website)
<snip>
> of William Malet, the great East Anglian landowner who fought at Hastings,
> and is said to have been the only companion of the Conqueror who was
> half English. It was perhaps for this reason that he was entrusted by
> William with the task of burying the body of King Harold on the seashore
> after the battle. As a result of Mr. Blake Butler’s researches,
> the house takes its place among the very few families in the Peerage
> who can trace their ancestry in the male line to the Norman Conquest."
King Harold was not buried at sea but at the church Harold founded at
Waltham. It is not known whether William Malet had anything to do with
the burial.
Renia
> Further research has uncovered a possible line of descent.
>
>>From "Butler Family History" authored by Lord Dunboyne and updated in 1991 published by the Butler Society, Kilkenny, Ireland, the Butler patrilineal ancestor Walter Malet may be identified with Walter de Caen, or at least related by marriage.
>
> Walter Malet was in England soon after the Conquest and died in or about 1088. He was apparently the son of William Malet and Hesillia Crispin. Her father was Gilbert Crispin Count de Brienne, whose mother was Hawise (Heloise) Guines, whose mother was Elstrude (Elftrude) de Flanders, whose father was Arnulf I de Flanders (Fleming), whose parents were Baldwin II 'the Bald" Count of Flanders and Aefthyrth (Elfrida) of Wessex, daughter of Alfred the Great.
The following is paraphrased from Keats-Rohan's "Domesday People" and
"Domesday Descendants". (She has also written a book called "Domesday
Book and the Malets".)
Re WILLIAM MALET
William Malet was of unknown parentage but Guy d'Amiens described him as
part Norman part English. He was probably from Lincolnshire.
He was not the same William Malet who was monk of Bec.
He married Esilia, daughter of Gilbert I Crispin, castellan of Tillieres
in the Vexin.
Few of his children can be identified, but the following are known:
His eldest son and heir was Robert who occurs with his father just
before 1066.
Another son was Gilbert.
Durand Malet is now thought to be another son, and not his brother.
His daughter was Beatrice, wife of William d'Arques
A daughter married Turold the Sheriff and their daughter was Lucy.
A daughter married Alfred of Lincoln.
He died in 1071 during the fenland revolt led by Hereward the Wake.
Re WALTER MALET
He appears in the Lindsey Survey as a successor of Durand Malet with
Ralph Malet. They were probably his sons. Durand was ancestor of the
Malets of Linwood and Rothwell.
Michael o Hearn
Charles Cawley of "Medieval Lands" says that Hesilia is listed as the wife of William Malet in the work by Miles Crispin, and is also recorded as being the mother of William. It is supposed that this William son of Hesilia is the same person as Durand Malet, father of Ralph (Ranulf) and Walter. The Butler family document of Lord Dunboyne claims that their family descends from this Walter who is also Walter de Caen, a daughter Matilda being the wife of Herve, who are then the parents of Herve Walter, father of Theobald Walter le Botiller.
William Glanville-Richards wrote an interesting dissertation on the Glanvilles, connecting Herve as a son of Ranulf de Glanville, and thus descended by way of St. Savieur ancestors from Malahude, uncle of Rollo the Viking in Normandy.
Both the connections of Walter de Caen to the Butler origins, and of Herve to the Glanvilles, are based upon what lawyers call "circumstantial evidence', i.e. not directly spelled out in contemporary sources but rather deduced from other known facts. For example, one could deduce that Gilbert Crispin son of Godfrey de Brionne was a Crepon and not a Crispin if it were known that he had inherited an estate in Crepon from his mother's brother.
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland, a Possible Descent from Kings of Wessex
Renia
> Thank you for the additions to the Malet pedigree.
>
> Charles Cawley of "Medieval Lands" says that Hesilia is listed as the wife of William Malet in the work by Miles Crispin, and is also recorded as being the mother of William. It is supposed that this William son of Hesilia is the same person as Durand Malet, father of Ralph (Ranulf) and Walter. The Butler family document of Lord Dunboyne claims that their family descends from this Walter who is also Walter de Caen, a daughter Matilda being the wife of Herve, who are then the parents of Herve Walter, father of Theobald Walter le Botiller.
Why should Durand Malet be supposed to be the same person as William
Malet? Keats-Rohan has concluded Durand was probably son of William.
The wife of Herve was Judith (see below), not Matilda.
This all seems muddled. See below.
>
> William Glanville-Richards wrote an interesting dissertation on the Glanvilles, connecting Herve as a son of Ranulf de Glanville, and thus descended by way of St. Savieur ancestors from Malahude, uncle of Rollo the Viking in Normandy.
Again, from Keats-Rohan's "Domesday Descendants":
Willelm flius Hervei, son of Hervey, tenant of Hugh fitz Eudo at
Candlesby. Held a tenth of a fee in 1166 from Robert fitz Hugh of
Tattershall. His fee at Shelfanger, Norfolk, was held of Robert of
Tattershall, after whose death it was taken into the king's hands and
then given to Ranulf de Glanville. Gilbert fitz Hervey was his heir.
Note that William fitz Herve was a TENANT and that his lands were taken
by the king and given to Ranulf de Glanville. Ranulf was not the heir of
William fitz Herve but Gilbert fitz Hervey was. Ranulf de Glanville also
lived more than a generation after Herve.
Note also that there were several Herves in Domesday Book. One of them
was known as Herueus Bituricensis. Keats-Rohan speculates he was a
Breton and his lands had strong connections to the Malets. He married
Judith and their daughter Isilia married William Pecche after 1107 (when
his first wife was still living) and was the mother of Hamon Pecche.
Herve's wife Judith was possibly a sister or daughter of Robert Malet,
because Isilia was the name of Robert's mother. This Herve had a son
also called Herve fitz Herve who "accounted 2 marks to have his land
from Haimo Pecche in Suffolk in 1129/30".
Keats-Rohan names several de Glanvilles.
Roger de Glanville was a Norman tenant of Robert Malet in Domesday,
probably from Glanville in Calvados.
His son was Robert de Glanville (d.c. 1150) who was father of:
Herve de Glanville, an old man in 1150. He married Mabel,and was father
of: Ranulf the justiciar; Gerard, still living in 1189; Osbert, Herve
and Goia (or Gytha? who had several husbands) and Alice.
Ranulf married Bertha, daughter of Theobald I de Valeines, a sister of
Robert de Valeines. They had sons, but his heirs were three daughters:
Matilda, wife of William de Auberville; Amabilis, wife of Ralph de
Ardene; and Helewise, wife of Robert fitz Ralph. Ranulf died in Acre in
1190.
Michael o Hearn
Michael O'Hearn
Visit my Blog!
http://www.westernperspective.blogspot.com
--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 5:28 PM
>Why should Durand Malet be supposed to be the same person as William
Malet? Keats-Rohan has concluded Durand was probably son of William.
This is regarding William Butteler "the Seedling" in regard to Lord Dunboyne's theory:
>>The discovery led him to surmise that the paternal ancestor of the
Butlers was Walter de Caen (son
of William Malet who accompanied the Conqueror and, being half Saxon,
was entrusted with the burial of King Harold after the Battle of
Hastings).<<
As mentioned, there are two references to William Malet, one as husband and the other as son of Hesilia Crispin. Other references have Durand as father of Walter, so this william could also be Durand's father perhaps.
>The wife of Herve was Judith (see below), not Matilda.
>This all seems muddled. See below.
>
>> William Glanville-Richards wrote an interesting dissertation on the Glanvilles, connecting Herve as a son of Ranulf de Glanville, and thus descended by way of St. Savieur ancestors from Malahude, uncle of Rollo the Viking in Normandy.
>Again, from Keats-Rohan's "Domesday Descendants":
>Willelm flius Hervei, son of Hervey, tenant of Hugh fitz Eudo at
Candlesby. Held a tenth of a fee in 1166 from Robert fitz Hugh of
Tattershall. His fee at Shelfanger, Norfolk, was held of Robert of
Tattershall, after whose death it was taken into the king's hands and
then given to Ranulf de Glanville. Gilbert fitz Hervey was his heir.
>Note that William fitz Herve was a TENANT and that his lands were taken
by the king and given to Ranulf de Glanville. Ranulf was not the heir of
William fitz Herve but Gilbert fitz Hervey was. Ranulf de Glanville also
lived more than a generation after Herve.
In "Records of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville" by William Glanville-Richards, Ranulf de Glanville is listed as being at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and married to Flandrina. Their son os Sor Hervey de Glanville, Chamberlain to King Stephen, etc., Alive in 1150. Married to Domina Matilda. Pedigree of Glanville beginning on page 175.
>Note also that there were several Herves in Domesday Book. One of them
was known as Herueus Bituricensis. Keats-Rohan speculates he was a
Breton and his lands had strong connections to the Malets. He married
Judith and their daughter Isilia married William Pecche after 1107 (when
his first wife was still living) and was the mother of Hamon Pecche.
Herve's wife Judith was possibly a sister or daughter of Robert Malet,
because Isilia was the name of Robert's mother. This Herve had a son
also called Herve fitz Herve who "accounted 2 marks to have his land
from Haimo Pecche in Suffolk in 1129/30".
>Keats-Rohan names several de Glanvilles.
>Roger de Glanville was a Norman tenant of Robert Malet in Domesday,
probably from Glanville in Calvados.
>His son was Robert de Glanville (d.c. 1150) who was father of:
>Herve de Glanville, an old man in 1150. He married Mabel,and was father
of: Ranulf the justiciar; Gerard, still living in 1189; Osbert, Herve
and Goia (or Gytha? who had several husbands) and Alice.
>Ranulf married Bertha, daughter of Theobald I de Valeines, a sister of
Robert de Valeines. They had sons, but his heirs were three daughters:
Matilda, wife of William de Auberville; Amabilis, wife of Ralph de
Ardene; and Helewise, wife of Robert fitz Ralph. Ranulf died in Acre in
1190.
I would also add that Crispin's wife Heloise de Guynes was the daughter of Raoul de Guines and Rosella de St. Paul following Lanfranc, and not Sigfried the Dane and Elstrude de Flanders.
Renia
>
> Michael O'Hearn
>
>
> Visit my Blog!
> http://www.westernperspective.blogspot.com
I don't see what your blog has to do with medieval genealogy.
Why not visit the University of Oxford site to see what Dr Keats-Rohan
has been up to?
Anita JACOBSON
I enjoy this list, but it really seldom covers family connections I am interested in. I was wondering if the considerably knowledgable genealogists on this list knew of lists that covered early modern Britain, especially English, and the American colonial period, especially New England. The lines I am interested in came to New England in some of the first waves of emigration, including the Mayflower and the Great Migration.
Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Anita Jacobson
Michael o Hearn
The possible descent from Hervé Bituricensis is dealt with at length in Glanville-Richards' memoir including the introduction by John Pym Yeatman, Esq.. He concludes that although they were likely connected with the Herveys in some unknown genealogical way, Walter's paternal ancestor was not Hervey of Brittany.
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Butlers of Ireland
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
taf
wrote:
> >>The discovery led him to surmise that the paternal ancestor of the
>
> Butlers was Walter de Caen (son
> of William Malet who accompanied the Conqueror and,
Maybe you mean a different man of the same name, but the Walter de
Caen I know of is not the son of William Malet.
> As mentioned, there are two references to William Malet, one as husband and the other as son of Hesilia Crispin.
Both dubious.
> In "Records of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville" by William Glanville-Richards, Ranulf de Glanville is listed as being at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and married to Flandrina.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there. There is a
very short list of people known to have been at the battle of
Hastings. Any source that makes this claim without justifying it is
not only not to be trusted with regard to this specific claim, but
because it is a hallmark of credulous genealogy, it suggests the whole
source must be questioned.
Certainly this work is problematic. A quick look shows 'William, Earl
Glanville" with a coat of arms in 1113. This is too early for a coat
of arms, and no one living at this time would have had the title Earl
Glanville.
> Their son os Sor Hervey de Glanville, Chamberlain to King Stephen, etc., Alive in 1150. Married to Domina Matilda. Pedigree of Glanville beginning on page 175.
>
The only reference I see for Hervey Walter being a scion of the
Glanvilles is a manuscript in the style of a visitation pedigree,
which would make it a very late witness. This is not trustworthy.
> I would also add that Crispin's wife Heloise de Guynes was the daughter of Raoul de Guines and Rosella de St. Paul following Lanfranc, and not Sigfried the Dane and Elstrude de Flanders.
As Will has indicated, Crispin and Heloise are fictitious.
taf
Renia
> The blog link is sent unless I delete it, which I forgot to do, technology being what it is today.
>
I think I would trust Dr Keats-Rohan over Glanville-Richards because she
has made a career out of studying and analysing the original medieval
documents and has written about the Malets.
Renia
>
>
> I enjoy this list, but it really seldom covers family connections I am interested in. I was wondering if the considerably knowledgable genealogists on this list knew of lists that covered early modern Britain, especially English, and the American colonial period, especially New England. The lines I am interested in came to New England in some of the first waves of emigration, including the Mayflower and the Great Migration.
>
>
>
> Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Who and when?
Renia
> On Jan 15, 7:43 am, Michael o Hearn <mohearn_brights...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> The discovery led him to surmise that the paternal ancestor of the
>> Butlers was Walter de Caen (son
>> of William Malet who accompanied the Conqueror and,
>
> Maybe you mean a different man of the same name, but the Walter de
> Caen I know of is not the son of William Malet.
>
>
>> As mentioned, there are two references to William Malet, one as husband and the other as son of Hesilia Crispin.
>
> Both dubious.
>
>
>> In "Records of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville" by William Glanville-Richards, Ranulf de Glanville is listed as being at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 and married to Flandrina.
>
>
> Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there. There is a
> very short list of people known to have been at the battle of
> Hastings. Any source that makes this claim without justifying it is
> not only not to be trusted with regard to this specific claim, but
> because it is a hallmark of credulous genealogy, it suggests the whole
> source must be questioned.
>
> Certainly this work is problematic. A quick look shows 'William, Earl
> Glanville" with a coat of arms in 1113. This is too early for a coat
> of arms, and no one living at this time would have had the title Earl
> Glanville.
>
>
>
> The only reference I see for Hervey Walter being a scion of the
> Glanvilles is a manuscript in the style of a visitation pedigree,
> which would make it a very late witness. This is not trustworthy.
To me, it seems the other way round, that the Glanvilles are a scion of
the "house" of Herve.
Michael o Hearn
The real question is, how did such an obscure family become one ot the most powerful and influential in the British Empire as Lords of Ormonde? As stated previously, the answer must lie in circumstantial evidence pointing to their origins, something which is not amenable to strictly genealogical methodology. Therefore, I intend to withdraw from further discussion.
Michael O'Hearn
--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
taf
wrote:
> I don't see where Keats-Rohan makes any claim regarding the obscure origins of the Butlers of Ireland.
>
> The real question is, how did such an obscure family become one ot the most powerful and influential in the British Empire as Lords of Ormonde? As stated previously, the answer must lie in circumstantial evidence pointing to their origins, something which is not amenable to strictly genealogical methodology. Therefore, I intend to withdraw from further discussion.
>
It is a flawed assumption that a powerful family must always have been
powerful or influential. Given the social turmoil involved in Henry I
coming to power, Henry II coming to power, and John's struggles to
stay in power, etc., there was more social mobility within the gentry
than is sometimes appreciated, in both directions.
This family flipped the influence of a minor palace office into a
religious appointment, and with a few things breaking the right way,
that became an archbishopric. There is nothing like an archbishopric
to improve the fortunes of a family, and yet there are archbishops
with parentage that is entirely unknown. A nephew is then named Lord
Justice of Ireland, and it is off to the races, with each subsequent
generation marrying up: daughter of a big landowner, granddaughter of
an Earl, daughter of an earl, granddaughter of a king.
No, there is nothing about the Butler's slow climb. Many families were
doing it. And many families did a similar dance. Look at the
Brandons, who went from an obscure port-town civic official to Earl
and husband of a Queen in 3 generations. More timely, we don't know
the grandparents of Geoffrey Fitz Piers, Earl of Essex. You just, as a
family, had to pick the right side as one after another of your
betters were brought down by not being so fortunate in their choices,
or simply by having many daughters (ala William Marshal).
taf
David Teague
I checked the actor's official website, and this is apparently legitimate.
And here I thought things wouldn't get any stranger for a while.
David Teague
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/
Renia
> I don't see where Keats-Rohan makes any claim regarding the obscure origins of the Butlers of Ireland.
She doesn't.