Etiennette of Longwy - NOT!!!!
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 26 April 2001 16:29
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Etiennette of Longwy - NOT!!!!
>
> <chomp>
> What are we left with? - not much. Cut loose of the Lorraine
> connection, we are now free to throw our net a little wider for
> potential candidate families. This seach must now be based on
> the two remaining useful bits of information - a kinship (but not
> too close) to the Counts of Barcelona (there seems no
> disagreement that the mother of Henry of Portugal derived from
> this clan, as both of Henry's brothers, Hughes Borell and Eudes
> Borell, were given the byname of Count Raimond Borell of
> Barcelona, father of Berenger Raimond); and the use of some of
> the names (i.e. Raimond, Clemence, Gisela) which first arise
> among the Counts of Burgundy in the generation following the
> marriage of Count William to the mysterious Etiennette. What we
> appear to lack is any documentary evidence with which to compare
> our hypothesis, in order to evaluate its likelyhood.
The names of Etiennette's children by Guillaume I may be the best starting
point for any new theory - it's striking that their fourth son was named
Etienne (murdered at Askalon 27 April 1102) and their (perhaps) fourth
daughter was Etiennette. The first three sons were Otton (Eudes), Renaud and
Guillaume, and later they had Guy (Pope Callixtus II), Raimond and Hugues.
Other known daughters were Sibylle, Gisela, Clemence and Ermentrude.
The naming of the first three sons is clearly explicable from their father's
family connections over the preceding generations - but it's harder to
account for Etienne (born ca 1060 or a bit earlier). This name had recently
appeared in the family of the counts of Blois, with Etienne I, count of
Troyes (died 1047/8) and his nephew Etienne-Henri, count of Blois (born
1046/8, killed 1102). However, there was no coincidence in that family with
other exotic names occurring at the same time. (Michel Bur has speculated
that the name came through an unknown marriage with the family of Etienne of
Brioude and Adelais of Anjou.)
The name duplication with brother & sister is interesting. It seems to me
more likely that Etienne was named to honour his maternal grandfather rather
than his mother directly. Does anyone know of a contemporary instance where
a son was named after his mother, or can readers suggest any fairly
important men named Etienne in the generation before her?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> The name duplication with brother & sister is interesting. It seems to me
> more likely that Etienne was named to honour his maternal grandfather rather
> than his mother directly. Does anyone know of a contemporary instance where
> a son was named after his mother,
I have seen it (or something similar) suggested in three other
cases - Otto-William of Burgundy, from his paternal grandmother,
Willa; Constance, for her (hypothesized) father Charles
Constantine; and Solome of Berg, for her (hypothesized) maternal
grandfather, Solomon of Hungary (in the Jackman article in this
same compilation).
taf
Stewart, Peter
These precedents suggest dynastic/political motives for the naming in the
case of Otto-William, and commemorative/dynastic ones for the two women.
Anything similar in Etienne of Burgundy's case might be connected to his
appanage of Macon, or perhaps a failed hope of establishing him elsewhere (I
don't know of any evidence for that). The duplication in the case of a
sister named Etiennette remains interesting. She does not appear to have
been set for a great destiny in marriage to carry this name forward - her
only recorded husband as far as I know was Lambert (aka François) de
Valence, seigneur (aka prince) of Royans.
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 1 May 2001 13:31
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: Etiennette of Longwy - NOT!!!!
> >
> >
> > "Stewart, Peter" wrote:
> > >
> > > The name duplication with brother & sister is interesting.
> > It seems to me
> > > more likely that Etienne was named to honour his maternal
> > grandfather rather
> > > than his mother directly. Does anyone know of a
> > contemporary instance where
> > > a son was named after his mother,
> >
> > I have seen it (or something similar) suggested in three other
> > cases - Otto-William of Burgundy, from his paternal grandmother,
> > Willa; Constance, for her (hypothesized) father Charles
> > Constantine; and Solome of Berg, for her (hypothesized) maternal
> > grandfather, Solomon of Hungary (in the Jackman article in this
> > same compilation).
Now I can add one more - Willa, wife of Rodulf I of Burgundy
named in honor of her ancestor, William of Gellone (which, if
true, would give Otto-William an ancestor William, but eight
generations earlier, without an single instance of the name in
the intervening generations).
> These precedents suggest dynastic/political motives for the naming in the
> case of Otto-William, and commemorative/dynastic ones for the two women.
> Anything similar in Etienne of Burgundy's case might be connected to his
> appanage of Macon, or perhaps a failed hope of establishing him elsewhere (I
> don't know of any evidence for that).
I wondered if perhaps he might have been originally destined for
the church.
taf
Stewart, Peter
Given that Etienne of Burgundy was quite possibly born during the short
reign of Pope Stephen IX (August 1057 to March 1058), this is a plausible
enough explanation for his baptismal name to be going on with - & anyway
there was perhaps a local cult of the proto-martyr at the time, so it could
be more fruitful to concentrate on the exotic names of his siblings.
However, I wonder if some other instances of the name Etienne within a few
generations before this son of Guillaume of Burgundy & Etiennette are just
co-incidence: there were two viscounts of Thiern (or Thiers) in Auvergne
with this name, the second of whom apparently died ca 1060. Closer to home
in Burgundy, there was an Etienne, seigneur of Fauverney near Dijon, who
died shortly after 1060. This man's family also held Mailly-le-Château &
other lands that had formed part of the dismembered comté of Oscheret (which
had belonged at the end of the ninth century to Anscar I, margrave of Ivrea,
ancestor of Etienne of Burgundy's family).
ES does not cover this lineage. Maurice Chaume published a study the family,
"Les Mailly-Fauverney", in *Mémoires de la Commission des Antiquités de la
Côte-d'Or* 20 (1935) - I don't have immediate access to this (and by the
way, it seems to be overlooked in the Saffroy bibliography). Can anyone lay
hands on this & tell us if Chaume establishes a provenance for the name
Etienne in that family? And does anyone know of a connection between the
lords of Fauverney and the viscounts of Thiern, or between either of these
families and the counts of Burgundy and/or the ruling house of Barcelona?
Peter Stewart
Settipani
an unique gallo-Roman family, but this is not necessary since the cult the
proto-martyr St Etienne was very popular. I'm not wholly convinced that one have
to suppose another origin (i.e. papal) than his mother's name for the name of
Stephen of Burgundy. But I remain prudent neverthless.
For Etiennette's origin, several ways are possible. Szabolcs de Vajay and myself
have spent long hours to discuss it for the preparation of his paper. I shall deal
it in more detail in my forthcoming book on the Aquitanian family.
I give here only one of these possibilities:
Liedgarde of Auvergne, doubtless issued of an Etienne, is the mother of Raimond
Borel of Barcelona. Raimond Borel is the father of Berenger and Etiennette, wife
of Roger de Tosny and Garcia of Navarre.
One can suppose that Berenger is the father of (Clemence ?), wife of Henri of
Bourgogne and mother of Eudes Borel and his brother Henri. Berenger would be also
the brother of Clemence, wife of her cousin Bernard II of Bigorre. Finally,
Bernard II, father of Raimond, would be also the father of Ermensinde of Aquitaine
and our Etiennette.
Raimond, son of Etiennette, is Henri's ' congermanus ' because they are both
greatgrandsons of Raimond Borel of Barcelona. Etiennette calls her son Raimond as
her own brother, his daughter Clemence as her mother, another daughter, Guisla, as
her great-great-aunt Guisla, and probably another daughter, Sybilla from some near
relative (I don’t know the origin of Sybilla's name ; M. Chaume claims that the
first Sybilla is a viscountess of Urgell, but the chart which mentions this person
is badly dated in the History of Languedoc and is much later).
CS
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Liedgarde of Auvergne, doubtless issued of an Etienne, is the mother of Raimond
> Borel of Barcelona.
Where does this come from (that Liedgarge was daughter of an
Etienne.
> Raimond Borel is the father of Berenger and Etiennette, wife
> of Roger de Tosny and Garcia of Navarre.
I am wondering what your opinion is regarding Jaime Salazar
Acha's theory that Etiennette, wife of Garcia of Navarre, had by
a previous husband (who was kin to Constance of Provence) a
daughter Constance wife of infante Sancho Garcia of Navarre. One
would be hard pressed to give her three husbands.
> One can suppose that Berenger is the father of (Clemence ?), wife of Henri of
> Bourgogne and mother of Eudes Borel and his brother Henri.
Did Henri and (?) have a daughter Clemence? If not then I would
prefer to consider the name as entering the Dukes of Burgundy
through the wife of Eudes Borel (it would require only one font
of the name, rather than, two separate entries).
> Berenger would be also
> the brother of Clemence, wife of her cousin Bernard II of Bigorre.
Is this speculation, or is there additional evidence for it.
Would this not make Bernard (son of Bernard Roger, son of Roger
of Carcassonne) and Clemence first cousins (as Berenger was
maternal grandson of that same Roger of Carcassonne)? Is such a
marriage hypothesized to provide continuity for the name
Etienne/Etiennette?
> Finally, Bernard II, father of Raimond, would be also the father
> of Ermensinde of Aquitaine and our Etiennette.
I had actually prepared a post myself which suggested this, but
then my computer locked up and I lost it. The names Raimond,
Etiennette, and Ermensinde would be explained, plus if you
include the Thiery Stasser's proposed Rouergue origins, Hugh
would be accounted for.
> Raimond, son of Etiennette, is Henri's ' congermanus ' because they are both
> greatgrandsons of Raimond Borel of Barcelona.
If the first cousin marriage above is a problem, that does not
eliminate the relationship, as the two would have the same degree
of descent from Roger of Carcassonne (what I had in mind when I
was suggesting it).
> Etiennette calls her son Raimond as
> her own brother, his daughter Clemence as her mother, another daughter, Guisla, as
> her great-great-aunt Guisla,
This would not be the case were the first-cousin marriage above
considered problematic.
taf
Settipani
relative of an Etienne.
For Jaime's demonstration (I presume that you make reference to his paper of 1994
'Reflexiones sobre la posible historicidad ...'), I think there is no doubt that
Etiennette de Navarre was the mother of Constanza, wife of the infant Sancho. I note
that Jaime is not aware of the Tosny's marriage. So, in theory, the first marriage he
supposes with an unknown man can be the marriage with Roger of Tosny. Sure, the name
Constanza seems not to be inherited from the Tosny family. So far, I see two convenient
possibilities :
- Between 1026 (Roger of Tosny is already remarried) and 1038 (first attestation with
Garcia), Etiennette could have been married with a another man. So why not three
marriages ? And why this man not a relative of the Bosonids of Arles ?
- Adelaide of Carcassone, Roger's wife, was not the sister of Pierre of Maguelonne
(Thierry Stasser 's hypothesis) but his niece. She was identical with Adelaide, niece of
Pierre, named with her siblings, Pierre and Constance, etc. The chronology is then very
difficult, but not impossible: Adelaide, born c. 960, of (Berenger) of Melgueil, born c.
940 and Ne of Arles, born c. 945, married c. 970 with Roger, was the mother c. 975/9 of
Raimond, c. 980 of Ermensinde, c. 979/981 of Bernard I.
Henri doesn't have, so far that I know, a daughter named Clemence. So, I agreed that the
name of his granddaughter Clemence can be inherited from the wife of Eudes. In my book,
I make exatly the same remark (p. 89, n. 1 of the manuscript : "Le nom de Clemence
proposé par J. Richard, 1958, p. 42 pour la femme d'Henri de Bourgogne ... ne s'impose
pas puisque ce nom a certainement été transmis à la descendance d'Eudes par le mariage
de celui-ci ..."). But I have forgetten to remove the name from my stemma. May be I
should.
Of course, the whole stemma is a speculation. This is precisely for that reason that
many hypothesis can be submitted. No one is assured. But this one, I make some twenty
years ago, is, in my sence, "the best speculation".
The fact that I suppose a first cousins marriage is not a difficulty. It is not the same
to suppose the same thing in northern France or in Germany. M. Aurell had demonstrated
that such unions are possible in that area. From private discussions with S. de Vajay,
P. de Latour or T. Stasser, I know that all this authors are convinced of this reality.
For the name Hugh, I suppose that you speak about the son of William and Etiennette. In
this case, the best explanation is that William had a brother with this name.
CS
Settipani
preference between the two possibilities. I prefer the first one : a third marriage for
Etiennette. The other one had too many chronological difficulties. You can add the fact that
the infant Sancho was born c. 1035/8 and not a probable husband for a daughter of Roger of
Tosny, necessary born before 1026 (so, just possible but far from probable).
CS
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I would not means that Liedgarde was the daughter of an Etienne, but that she was the
> relative of an Etienne.
> The fact that I suppose a first cousins marriage is not a difficulty. It is not the same
> to suppose the same thing in northern France or in Germany. M. Aurell had demonstrated
> that such unions are possible in that area. From private discussions with S. de Vajay,
> P. de Latour or T. Stasser, I know that all this authors are convinced of this reality.
While not out of the question, one would have to say it is the
exception rather than the rule on this side of the peninsula. I
guess my question is why Clemence is made daughter of Raimond
Borell when it is not necessary to explain the kinship between
Henri and Raimond. Is it intended to establish a continuity with
Etiennette, wife of Roger and Garcia (and Etienne, relative of
Liedgarde)? As far as I can tell, the names of Clemence herself
and that of her daughter Isabella don't have any predicessor in
the Barcelona pedigree, while the names of her sons, Raimond,
William and Berenger could just as well have come from the
Bigorre side of the pedigree.
On the Tosny front, certainly the marriage of Roger to Etiennette
must have ended in divorce, as both remarried during the lifetime
of the other. Is there any particular theory for the official
impediment which would have allowed this? (Certainly they weren't
related.) While there has been a lot of speculation about this,
a possibility has just occured to me. With the name Berenger
appearing in the Tosny of Belvoir family, could it be that Robert
Tosny of Belvoir and his brother Berenger Spina were children of
Roger by Etiennette, rendered illegitimate by their parents
subsequent annulment, to be supplanted by Ralph and Robert (of
Stafford) children of his second marriage? (I note that Murray
has suggested the possibility of a similar disinheritance of a
Boulogne child in the same time frame.) To me this seems
preferable to hypothesizing two Roger de Tosnys, each in Spain
and marrying there, and each dying at the same time.
taf
Janko Pavsic
in the French Middle Age. And unusual too because Etiennette and the
Count Guillaume I have 13 siblings with different names. I did not
read yet the article from Mr Settipani and Vajay, and that could
change my opinion. But after my present knowledge, some points are
clear:
1. Étiennette and Hermensende are certainly not siblings,
half-sisters, or first cousins (no Étiennette in the descent of
Hermensende ; no Hermensende in the descent of Étiennette).
2. Clémence. This firstname do not come from Spain or south of France,
even if the first Clémence is found in this area.
3. The "merge" of firstnames Étiennette and Raymond in the same family
happened at least 2 or 3 generations before the burgundian Countess
Étiennette.
4. One of her grandfather was count of Rouergue
5. We must keep in mind Étiennette of Vaudémont, and try to explain
her name.
6. The name Sibylle for a daughter of Étiennette is unwonted.
7. The name Clémence could comes from Guillaume I of Burgundy (not
from Étiennette).
Janko Pavsic
Montréal, Québec
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Étiennette is certainly one of most interesting genealogical problem
> in the French Middle Age. And unusual too because Etiennette and the
> Count Guillaume I have 13 siblings with different names. I did not
> read yet the article from Mr Settipani and Vajay, and that could
> change my opinion. But after my present knowledge, some points are
> clear:
>
> 1. Étiennette and Hermensende are certainly not siblings,
> half-sisters, or first cousins (no Étiennette in the descent of
> Hermensende ; no Hermensende in the descent of Étiennette).
I can think of other siblings for which this is the case, though,
and numerous examples with first cousins.
> 2. Clémence. This firstname do not come from Spain or south of France,
> even if the first Clémence is found in this area.
I am not sure I follow you here.
> 3. The "merge" of firstnames Étiennette and Raymond in the same family
> happened at least 2 or 3 generations before the burgundian Countess
> Étiennette.
With Etiennette/Douce? I had looked there for a connection, but
excluded it (can't remember why).
> 4. One of her grandfather was count of Rouergue
The chronology seems long for this. There is a pattern of
onomastic similarities, but this could be coincidental. Raymond
does seem to have links to Toulouse/Rouergue, but by this time
had spread broadly.
> 5. We must keep in mind Étiennette of Vaudémont, and try to explain
> her name.
Perhaps liked, or perhaps derived separately from Etienne.
> 6. The name Sibylle for a daughter of Étiennette is unwonted.
Not sure I follow you here.
> 7. The name Clémence could comes from Guillaume I of Burgundy (not
> from Étiennette).
Yes, it could, but his ancestry is pretty well characterized,
with no Clemence connection. COntrary to the prevailing
assumptions of the field, it could have been an innovation as
well.
I have my own, seemingly unrelated (but not really) question.
How reliable is the chronicle source naming the first wife of
Alfonso VI of Leon as Agnes, daughter of Count Guy of Poitou?
taf
Janko Pavsic
I was ready to send you my answer, but I just receive all books of
"Prosopographica et Genealogica" (includind the article of Mr.
Settipani and Vajay. I will tell you my point of view in few days.
Janko Pavsic
Montréal, Québec
Janko Pavsic
Étiennette, wife of Guillaume Ier, count of Burgundy, in "Onomastique
et parenté dans l'Occident médiéval". Probably because I never read
the article of A. Beau.
1. Like it is writen in footnote 14, Étiennette, wife of Roger (son of
Raoul), was daughter of Hermensende and sister of Ramon Berenger.
There is the problem. If Étiennette is daughter of Hermensende, she is
aunt of Ramon Berenger and sister of Berenger Ramon. On the other way,
if Étiennette is sister of Ramon Berenger, she is grand-daughter of
Hermensende ?
2. If Étiennette, widow of Roger, married Garcia V, King of Navarra,
She can not be the wife of Richard, count of Évreux (E.S. II tafeln
69) ?
3. Why we see everywhere the name of "Adélaide" of Barcelona, wife of
Roger of Toeny, and of Richard of Évreux ?
Janko Pavsic
Montréal, Québec
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> I see 3 problems in the last article of Szabolcs de Vajay on
> Étiennette, wife of Guillaume Ier, count of Burgundy, in "Onomastique
> et parenté dans l'Occident médiéval". Probably because I never read
> the article of A. Beau.
>
> 1. Like it is writen in footnote 14, Étiennette, wife of Roger (son of
> Raoul), was daughter of Hermensende and sister of Ramon Berenger.
> There is the problem. If Étiennette is daughter of Hermensende, she is
> aunt of Ramon Berenger and sister of Berenger Ramon. On the other way,
> if Étiennette is sister of Ramon Berenger, she is grand-daughter of
> Hermensende ?
This is certainly true, so the question is which error is more
likely - that Etiennette was called daughter of Ermesende when
she should have been called granddaughter, or that Berenger Ramon
was mistakenly called Ramon Berenger (curiously, Vajay made
exactly this mistake in his first Etiennette article).
> 2. If Étiennette, widow of Roger, married Garcia V, King of Navarra,
> She can not be the wife of Richard, count of Évreux (E.S. II tafeln
> 69) ?
She could not have been his widow - a divorce must have been
involved, somehow. While Etiennette was married to Garcia, Roger
was still alive. Thus apparently, there was a divorce, and Roger
remarried to Godehaut, who then as his widow married Richard.
Etiennette apparently married a kinsman of Queen Constance,
giving her name to a daughter (as argued convincingly by Salazar
Acha) and then married as her third husband Garcia.
> 3. Why we see everywhere the name of "Adélaide" of Barcelona, wife of
> Roger of Toeny, and of Richard of Évreux ?
I think this was a late source, or it may be another wife of
Roger. I will have to dig around for the answer here.
taf