Re: Looking For John Payne, Sr. Lineage In Va. to The English Payne's
WJho...@aol.com
Starting with throwing out oral tradition, and citing actual sources.
I find a John Payne son of William being baptised on 24 Feb 1615 at Saint
James, Bury Saint Edmonds, Suffolk who could just as easily be your person.
If you were to post more citations (that we can cross-check) showing *why*
you're making these links it might be better, but the more vaugely you state
your case, the less likely it's going to be able to withstand criticism.
Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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Janet
I have found some folks think John Payne(Paine) father is Robert born 1589
in Kent, England, Great Britain to Robert Payne to 1539 in Suffolk, England
to Thomas Payne born 1500 in Suffolk, England NO prove is given
But this what I have
THE PAYNES of VIRGINIA
By: Brook Payne Colonel U.S. Army (retired) 1872-1938
SECOND EDITION
C J. Carrier Company
Harrisonburg, Virginia 1977
This genealogy of the Payne family presents the history of John and Margaret
Payne and their descendants through eleven generations, in male and female
lines. John and Margaret settled in old Rappahannock (Lancaster) County as
early as 1653.
In its organization, the volume divides John's descendants among four groups
based mostly on geography.
John Payne was born 1615 in England and he married Margaret?. He died in
1690 in Rappahannock Co., Virginia and was buried at "Red House" (Cedar
Hill), now in Westmoreland County, Virginia. His grave iis not marked, but a
bronze tablet indicates the approximate location thereof. It has been
impossible to determine the maiden name of John Paye's wife Margaret, and
there is nothing of unquestionable value on which to hazard a guess. She
first appears in the records in 1652, when land was granted for her
importation: and last in 1674, when she unites with her husband in a deed.
In 1655 her husband was granted land for her importation. She was possibly
his second wife.
John Payne was a ship owner, as evidenced by the fact that in 1653 the
Lancaster County Court paid him for provisioning and transporting Burgesses
from Lancaster to James Town. At this date Mr. John Payne was charged with
five tithables. In 1654 Mr. John Payne was ordered by the Court to appraise
the contents of Mr. Raleigh Traver's tobacco warehouse. In the same year the
records show that he made a trip to England: upon his return in 1655 he
moved to and occupied his plantation on Pepetick Creek, then in Lancaster
County near what is now Leedstown. This town was not founded, however, until
1742.
The old family grave yard, where John Payne was undoubtedly buried, is still
in use, being, until recently, surrounded by the remains of a rapidly
disappearing mound, and overgrown with a dense tangle of brush, weeds,
honeysuckle, and periwinkle. A description of its restoration is given in
the chapter on Homes. Bishop Payne in his letter to Bishop Meade, appearing
in the latter's "Old Churches and Families of Virginia", calls this old home
"Red House", and says "it was immediately in rear of Bunker Hill and three
miles from Leedstown. The original house has long since disappeared. The
present owner of the estate is Mr. Harry W. Coates. It has been known for
many years as "Cedar Hill". He bought 940 acres in 1653 in Lancaster County
on Pepetick Creek, on N.S.R.R. In that region of Lancaster County then known
as Rappahannock, and which in 1656 was organized as Rappahannock County. He
did not occupy this land until some years later. Pepetick Creek (called
Pedee and Perpertocks on current U.S. Geological Survery maps) is today in
Westmoreland and flows int the Rappahannock River about two and a half miles
below Leedstown.
http://personal.linkline.com/xymox/roh/payne.htm
Mister John PAYNE was born about 1615 in England and migrated to Virginia
sometime before 1653. The earliest extant, well identified record of his is
dated 1653 in Loudoun County Virginia. His wife's name was Margaret, but it
has been impossible to determine her maiden name. She first appears in the
records in 1652. In 1655, her husband was granted land for her importation
America's First Families
Ancestor Roll Of Honor
http://personal.linkline.com/xymox/roh/payne.htm
JOHN PAYNE
RAPPAHANNOCK CO., VIRGINIA
(abt.1615-c.1689)
Mister John PAYNE was born about 1615 in England and migrated to Virginia
sometime before 1653. The earliest extant, well identified record of his is
dated 1653 in Loudoun County Virginia. His wife's name was Margaret, but it
has been impossible to determine her maiden name. She first appears in the
records in 1652. In 1655, her husband was granted land for her importation.
She was possibly his second wife.
Mister John PAYNE was a ship owner. In 1653, the Loudoun County Court paid
him for provisioning and transporting Burgesses from Lancaster to Jamestown.
In 1655 and 1656, Mister John PAYNE was appointed collector of tithes for
Loudoun County, at which time he was charged with seven tithables. In 1654,
Mister John PAYNE was ordered by the Court to appraise the contents of
Mister Raleigh TRAVERS' tobacco warehouse.
In the same year, the records show that he made a trip to England and upon
his return in 1655, he moved to and occupied his plantation on Pepetick
Creek, then in Loudoun County near what is now Leedstown. This town was not
founded, however until 1742, the locality being first know as Rappahannock,
and later as Brays.
>From 1649-1690 documents indicate that Mister John PAYNE was a planter,
carpenter and boat owner. It does not appear that he was a shipmaster, but
that he owned sailboats of considerable tonnage. These he operated at a
profit, and which the court occasionally employed. It is not improbable that
he built boats of lighter draft.
In 1656, Mister John PAYNE was ordered by the Loudoun County Court to make
for the county one pair of stocks and a whipping-post. For the wood-work he
was to receive 400#, the iron-work being otherwise provided. In that same
year Rappahannock County was organized and possibly these implements were
for the new county. From this time onward, records relating to John PAYNE
are found in Rappahannock County. Mister John PAYNE was not a day laborer
but the overseer of construction, when he was not supervising the
cultivation of his plantations, operating his sloops, or attending to the
affairs of the Parish vestry.
There is no indication of his social standing, except the title of Mister
which in the majority of these references preceding his name, may be taken
as denoting that he belonged to the gentry class. In 1656, Mister. John
PAYNE was one of the Vestrymen of Sittingbourne Parish, in Rappahannock
County of which Mr. Francis DOUGHTY was Rector and which probably was named
after a town in Kent England.
Mr. John PAYNE owned large quantities of land at various times and places
during the period of 1649 to 1690 including 1500 acres at Occoquan in what
is now Prince William County, 1485 acres on Golden Vale Creek in what is now
Caroline County called Hazelwood and considerable land in the vicinity of
what is now Pope's Creek, in addition to his holdings in Lancaster and his
seated property on Pepetick Creek. Before his death, he apparently disposed
of all this land except that which lay on Pepetick Creek. The records in the
land Office in the Capitol at Richmond show that between 1653 and 1666, nine
patents aggregating over 5116 acres were issued to him of which 1356 were
allotted for importing 28 persons into the colony. Of this total amount
granted, 3443 acres bordered on Pepetick Creek and its branches.
Those from whom Mister John PAYNE collected tithes in Lancaster and others
with whom he associated in a way suggested that they were in a general sense
his neighbors. Among them and also part of this family were the GRYMES
family, the BRENT family, John JONES and Thomas HAWKINS.
Documented records establish the fact that Mister. John PAYNE was a man of
varied activities, of considerable means and influence in his county, and of
high social standing. In 103 court records referring to him, there is not
one suit against him. Of the very few suits in which he was the plaintiff,
the first is interesting. In 1652 while living in Lancaster he brought suit
against Christopher RIPHAM whose wife had used abusive language respecting
Mrs. PAYNE. RIPHAM was fined and his wife was required to make public
apology to the Court.
Mister John PAYNE had the following children, Richard, John, William and
George. It is believed that he had one or more daughters, but his will
cannot be found, although it is recorded that he made one.
Mister John PAYNE lived at Red House (now called Cedar Hill and in
Westmoreland County) which stands on the grant of 298 acres to Mister John
PAYNE and described as beginning one mile from the Rappahannock River on the
West side of Pepetick Creek adjacent to Thomas HAWKINS. Court records
indicate that he continued to live at Red House until his death, which is
assumed to have occurred in the winter of 1689-90. There are records in
Rappahannock County stating that he left a will. The will book covering this
period has been lost, so that the only suggestive evidence of the date of
his death is found in the records of Middlesex County, where on 7 April 1690
a deed by Henry THACKER, who married John PAYNE'S grand-daughter, refers to
John PAYNE as "Late of Rappahannock County, deceased." Miscellaneous
documents as late as 1689 in which he is mentioned imply that he was still
living in that year.
The old family grave-yard, where John PAYNE is buried after disuse was until
1935 surrounded by the remains of a rapidly disappearing mound and overgrown
with a dense tangle of brush, weeds, honeysuckle and periwinkle. On May 11,
1935, in the presence of about 150 members of the family, a concrete wall
around the 15 remaining gravestones was dedicated. The original burying
ground was 80 feet by 130 feet. The present wall occupies the exact NW
corner of the original ground, the major axis of which ran about North and
South. Most of the early PAYNES are buried there, including Mister John
PAYNE. His grave is not marked, but a bronze tablet indicates the
approximate location.
Submitted By; Caroline Hawkins Vowell of Woodstock, Georgia The Children of
John and Margaret PAYNE were;
1. RICHARD, 1633-1696, m. Millicent_______.
2. JOHN, b. abt. 1639. m. 1668 Ann WALKER.
3. WILLIAM, b. bef. 1652, d. 1698, m. (1) 1688 Frances CLEMENT, m. (2) 1691
Elizabeth POPE b. 16 June 1667, d. 1716.
4. GEORGE, b. 1653, d. 1711, m. Miss WHITE
5 Margaret married John Jennings
Col. Brooke Payne calls the "Paynes of Virginia"
1652: Mr. John Payne brought suit in Lancaster County against Christopher
Ripham, whose wife used abusive language with respect to Mrs. Payne.
Witnesses were Mrs. Martha Brice, wife of Mr. Thomas Brice, and Mary
Arundell. Christopher Ripham was fined and his wife was ordered to make
public apology to the Court
1653: John Payne resided on Payne's Creek in Lancaster Co., VA on the West
side of the Corrotoman River. John Payne bought from Francis Hobbes 940 a.
on Pepetick Creek, on the North side of the Rappahannock River, in that
region of Lancaster County, VA then known as Rappahannock. He did not occupy
this land until some years later. Lancaster County, VA Court paid John Payne
for provisioning and transporting Burgesses from Lancaster to James Town. Mr
John Payne charged with five tithables in Lancaster County, VA.
>From 1653 - 1666: Nine land patents aggregating over 5,116 a. issued to John
Payne. 1,356 a. of this were for importing 28 persons into the colony. Of
the total, 3,443 a. bordered on Pepetick Creek and its branches.
1654: Mr. John Payne ordered by the Court to appraise the contents of Mr.
Raleigh Travers' tobacco warehouse. John Payne made a trip to England.
1655: John Payne returned from England. John Payne moved to and occupied his
plantation on Pepetick Creek, then in Lancaster County, VA. John Payne was
granted land for the importation of his wife Margaret. She may have been his
2nd wife. Mr. John Payne appointed collector of tithes for Lancaster County,
VA. Mr. John Payne charged with seven tithables in Lancaster County, VA.
1656: Mr. John Payne appointed collector of tithes for Lancaster County, VA.
Mr. John Payne charged with seven tithables in Lancaster County, VA.
Lancaster County, VA Court ordered Mr. John Payne to make one pair of stocks
and a whipping-post for the county, for which he was to receive 400# for the
wooden-work thereof, the iron-work being otherwise provided. These
implements were possibly for the new county of Rappahannock, which was
organized in this year.
1658: Mr. John Payne and Mr. John Catlett > witnessed the noncupative will
of Richard Lawson, brother of Epaphroditus Lawson whose daughter Elizabeth
married Robert Payne of old Rappahannock Co., VA.
( This John Payne may not have been the John Payne of Col. Brooke Payne's
book . )
1660: 7 Feb 1659/60 - John Payne made an affidavit in connection with his
bill for transporting 1500 lbs. of pork to James Town by boat, his age being
recorded in the affidavit as "44 years or thereabouts".
1665: Mr. John Payne was one of the Vestrymen of Sittingbourne Parish, old
Rappahannock Co., VA. Mr.Francis Doughty was Rector.
8 Oct 1666(Old Rappahannock. Deeds, Wills, Book 5:109) Robert WALTON of
Rappa. By vertue of Letter of Attorney from Nicholas ANDREWS of Longdon Gent
bearing date 15 Oct 1663… in consideration of 400 lbs. Of Tobacco… to John
PAYNE of County of Rappa. 560 A of land by the within mentioned formerly
sold and conveied to the said Nicholas ANDREWS by the said John PAYNE … he
the said John PAYNE paying and performing the Rents and services thereof
due… this 8th day of October 1666.
In presence of John PAYNE, Jr. Robert WALTON
Charles MUMFORD, Richard PAYNE
Abraham COMB, Thomas PARKER
(Deed Abstracts of Old Rappahannock County, Virginia, Part I of 1672-1676,
Ruth and Sam Sparacio, Antient Press, McLean, VA, 1989)
1674: Margaret Payne joined John Payne in a deed.
Before 1690: John Payne died in old Rappahannock Co., VA. On 7 April 1690, a
deed Henry Thacker (who married John Payne's granddaughter) of Middlesex
County, VA referred to John Payne as "late of Rappahannock County, deceased
Janet Ariciu of Missouri
Janet
By: Brook Payne Colonel U.S. Army (retired) 1872-1938
SECOND EDITION
C J. Carrier Company
Harrisonburg, Virginia 1977
From: marianne dillow
Date: 12/8/2008 4:59:23 PM
To: Renia
Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Looking For John Payne, Sr. Lineage In Va. to The English Payne
s
Not really, I have a Payne cousin who made trips to England looking for
records back in the 1600's and came to the conclusion the Paynes that I
posted were kin to each other leaving us with finding the parents of John
Payne, Sr., among them, born 1615 in England and died 1689-1690 in Virginia,
among the ones I posted on. We are only concerned in the 1600 time period.
I am surprised on my Dillow surname you have data on. The surname is "very
rare." The earliest we have been able to prove is Peter Dillow, Sr who was
born in 1757 in Virginia and died at a late age, 1851 in Berkeley Co., Va
and his land was sold to John Washington. Since we never got across the pond
I have never known if the Dillow name was English or what. Thanks for the
data.
Marianne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Looking For John Payne, Sr. Lineage In Va. to The English Payne
s
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 3:36 PM
In the 1841 census for England there were:
10,769 people called Payne
488 people called Payn
4,186 people called Pain
3,254 people called Paine
That's 18,697 people called Payne (or variant) altogether. That makes it
quite a common surname.
In 1851, the total was
13,706 people called Payne [33,002 in 1901]
436 people called Payn [438 in 1901]
3,639 people called Pain [2473 in 1901]
3,372 people called Paine [3808 in 1901]
Or 21,153 people called Payne (or variant) altogether [40,451 in 19001]
On the other hand, in the 1841 census for England, there were:
194 people called Dillow [201 in 1851; 358 in 1901]
235 people called Dellow [369 in 1851; 633 in 1901]
This may help to put the Payne surname into perspective. Within 60
years, the numbers of people with this common surname doubled in
England. Who knows how many emigrated to the US, Australia, and
elsewhere? You are not looking for the "Payne line" but very numerous
"Payne lines".
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marianne dillow
Thanks Janet,
I do have some of this info in Va and am buying the Brooke Payne book but won't receive it for 5-6 weeks. What I need is info on the English Payne's I posted on in England. A Payne cousin has done much research for years and knows there are connections.. but which one is John Payne, Sr's parents were not sure.. I think he is going back to England to do more research.
I appreciate very much for what you have sent as some of it I do not have and some I do. :)
Marianne Dillow
--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Janet <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote:
marianne dillow
Thanks David,
Chuck and I are corresponding and working together. I am playing "catch up" with my Payne line as I have been working on the other lines of direct grandparents that are connected to this Payne line. :)
Marianne Diillow
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Chuck
I think you've got to the nub of my reservations - that whilst Robert
Payne, salter of London, may well be connected to John Payne of VA,
given the other names mentioned in his will, there's nothing that I
can see in it that connects the testator to Hunts. The fact that he
set up a substantial charity in Basingstoke Hampshire, and in no other
parish, implies to me that he was connected to that town, rather than
to St Neots 100 miles away, and Basingstoke is where I'd be
concentrating my research.
I have since noticed that in the original 1609 member list of the
Virginia Company of London he is listed as "Sir Robert Payne, Knight".
Yet the Midloe Robert Payne did not become a knight of the shire until
1614 when he was elected to parliament. This again raises a red flag
for me - that we are looking at two distinct Sir Robert Paynes. We
know that there was one in Midloe from 1614, but there was
another......in Hampshire, albeit of a slightly later generation, born
1600, so not the father of John of VA. The fact that the Midloe Robert
was not a knight until 1614 is supported by the Visitation of Hunts
1613 where he is described as "Robertus Payne de Midloe com. Hunt.
Miles", not Sir Robertus Payne k, as would have been expected if he
were already a knight.
David
marianne dillow
There are several John Payne's in Virginia as you say Janet but mine is considered the immigrant from the book " Paynes of Virginia" by Col. Brooke Payne. I am in the process of purchasing this book but it might take 5 more weeks to receive it but this is what we have now.
My direct line is :
i. Richard Eltonhead and Ann Sutton
ii. Martha Eltonhead and Edwin Conway, Sr.
iii. Eltonhead Conway and Henry Thacker, Sr.
iv. Henry Thacker, Jr. and Elizabeth Payne.
Elizabeth Payne is the daughter of John Payne, Jr. and Sarah Walker, daughter of Col. John Walker... John Payne, Jr. is the son of John Payne, Sr. and Margaret Robinson / Jennings ? May have married twice. John, Sr. is the one I am seeking English Info on.
John Payne, Sr. was born ca 1615 in England and died 1689-1690 in Rappahannock Co., Va and buried in Westmoreland Co., Va. at Red Hill, (now Cedar Hill in Westmoreland) . He migrated to Virginia 1653. In 1654 he made a trip to England and in established his residence on Pepetick Creek now known as Peedee Creek in Va.. On 7 Feb 1659-60 he submitted a bill for transporting 1500 lbs of pork to Jamestown. He stated he was 44 years old and this is the source for his bithdate. He expanded his land to Richmond, and Rappahannock Co., Va.
Marianne Dillow.
--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Janet <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote:
From: Janet <mon...@getgoin.net>
Subject: Re: Looking For John Payne, Sr. Lineage In Va. to The English Payne's
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 7:41 AM
The John Payne that Marianne Dillow Looking for is John Payne whose wife is
Margaret there are land deed for them.
That might be more then one John Payne in Virginia
Thank you all
Janet Ariciu
-------Original Message-------
From: Chuck Owens
Date: 12/9/2008 7:20:12 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Looking For John Payne, Sr. Lineage In Va. To The English Payne
s
Hi David,
I will try to respond to your inquiries with the information that I
Have on the John Payne of VA -Huntingdonshire connection.
"the whole hypothesis seems to centre around the 1622 will of Robert
Payne, a salter, of London, which attempts to establish a link to John
Payne of Virginia via the Thoroughgoods"
Yes, your statement is essentially correct but there are other
Characters mentioned in the will which seem to have at least a tenuous
If not direct connection to John Payne of VA. The name Florentine
Payne is mentioned in the will. A Florentine Payne in VA was known to
Have had a business association with Col. Richard Lee I who in turn
Was the neighbor of John Payne of Virginia. Regarding the
Thoroughgood connection, Anne Constable Lee, wife of Col. Richard Lee
I, had been under the guardianship of Sir John Thoroughgood. A John
Withers is also mentioned in the will and a Captain John Payne of the
Ship "John and Dorothy" who has been tentatively identified with John
Payne of VA, had a servant named John Withers and also transported
Goods for Adam Thoroughgood and his brother Sir John Thoroughgood, the
Same Sir John Thoroughgood that was guardian of Anne Constable, Col.
Richard Lee I's wife. All of it is just circumstantial evidence and
Speculation but the evidence does seem to point to a connection
Between John Payne of VA and Robert Payne, a salter in London.
"VCH Hunts goes on to state that Sir Robert and his son and heir
Robert (presumably the Robert aged 9 in 1613 shown in the Visitation)
Were dealing with the manor in 1629, citing Lansd. MS. 921, fol. 40;
Feet of F. Hunts. East. 4 Chas. I. There’s a probate on the TNA site
Of Robert Payne of Southoe dated 24 Nov 1632 which may be Sir Robert,
Although it could just as easily be the son born 1604. It would cost
£3-50 to download the will to find out. You would then find out if
it's the will of Sir Robert, whether he names a son John as a
Beneficiary."
I have actually examined Robert Payne's will and he was the son of Sir
Robert Payne of Midloe. He doesn't mention a brother John Payne
Neither does his mother Lady Elizabeth (Rotherham) Payne.
"You say the will of Robert Payne of St Neots/ Wintringham was
Probated in 1654. There’s a will on TNA of Robert Payne of St Neots
Probated on 29 June 1655 –is this the same one? If so how does it
Describe John? “My son John Payne” or “my son John Payne of
Virginia”?"
It just describes him as "my son John Payne. It doesn't mention that
John Payne was in Virginia.
"I can’t see how the will dated 1622 of Robert Payne of London
Connects to the Huntingdonshire Paynes. There’s no mention of Hunts in
It; he leaves £100 to the town of Basingstoke, Hampshire (Hants); and
The brothers and sisters that he names are not mentioned in the Hunts
Visitation. But which Robert would it be? Robert son of Edward died
1654/5, so it’s not him. Robert of St Neots who purchased Midloe died
In 1603; his son Sir Robert and Sir Robert’s son Robert B 1604 were
Both alive in 1629, so it’s none of these three either."
"If Thoroughgood is a real connection to your John, rather than a
Contrived one, then it seems to me as though you should be looking in
Basingstoke, Hants, rather than St Neots Hunts. The IGI, extracted
Entry so reliable, has the baptism of Robert Paine at Basingstoke on 2
Jan 1665, son of Robert & Joane, so there were Robert Paynes living in
That town."
This is a very interesting point that you make. Years ago I did a
Search at IGI and found an extracted record for a Florentine Payne in
Hampshire. So maybe John Payne of VA belongs to to the Hampshire
Payne family. Obviously this avenue needs to be explored in greater
Detail.
"So far I’ve seen nothing but speculation that John Payne of Virginia
Might be a John Payne from St Neots. As Renia pointed out, Paynes were
Two a penny at that time, and it’s going to be difficult to prove
Which one it was that emigrated."
Yes. It's all just circumstantial evidence and speculation. I think
The Hampshire connection may be worth pursuing.
Chuck Owens
marianne dillow
I forgot to mention that on my Conway and Eltonhead lines they both lead to the Lee's of Virginia. Through Edwin Conway and Martha Eltonhead's son Edwin Conway, JR and on down plus Martha Eltonhead's sister, Alice, who married Henry Corbin.
Marianne Dillow