Origin of the Despensers

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johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 9, 2014, 4:55:09 PM6/9/14
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Dear all,

In searching for the origins of the Despenser family that rose to prominence in England during the thirteenth century there are certainly plenty of erroneous statements in print. Many of these are based on pedigrees drawn up by heralds "deliberately and fraudulently invented" [1]. However, there are some clues which enable us to make an educated guess at the early family tree of the Despensers.

The chart pedigree of the family in Complete Peerage, vol. 4, p. 260 starts with a Thomas le Despenser. He is said in other sources to have died about 1207. This Thomas Despenser, who apppears to have lived to an old age, was the son of Geoffrey Despenser, as shown in an undated charter of Garendon abbey in Leicestershire: Thomas Despenser, son of Geoffrey Despencer granted and confirmed to Garendon abbey, 10 bovates in Burton with the consent of his overlord for this land, Ansketil de Berges [2].

Geoffrey le Despenser had a brother called Ivo de Alspath. Between 1155 and 1167, Ivo de Hallespad' and Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother were witnesses to a charter of Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester granting lands to the abbey of Combe in Warwickshire [3].

Ivo de Alspath was also known as Ivo son of Ansketil. Before 1153, Geoffrey dispensator and Ivo son of Ansketill witnessed a gift of Ranulf Earl of Chester to the abbey of St. Mary, Coventry [4].

From this we can reasonably conjecture that the father of Geoffrey and Ivo was called Ansketil. This Ansketil must have lived early in the twelfth century.

Ansketil's identity is revealed in a survey of the properties held by Burton abbey, Staffordshire compiled about 1126 [5]. The following land is listed amongst the abbey's possessions: "In Waterfala sunt ij bouate terre quas dedit nobis Aschetillus dispensator quietas & solutas ab omni seruicio & posuit super altare per unum cultellum, & hoc idem concesit in capitulo Galfridus filius eius & recepti sunt ipsi & vxor eiusdem Aschetilli defuncta in communione fraterne societatis & oracionum & beneficiorum etc" [6].

In Waterfal there are two bovates of land which were given to us by us by Aschetill Despenser, quit and free from all service [confirmed] by a knife placed on the altar and the same has been granted by his son Geoffrey, and he and the wife of Aschetill who died are received into the communion of brotherly fellowship and prayers and benefits. [My translation .. coud probably be improved !]

Waterfal is in Totmonslow Hundred, Staffordshire, but unfortunately this place does not appear in the Domesday survey, so it seems unlikely that the line can be extended back any further.

The Despencer family tree appears like this:

Ansketil Despenser (d. bef. 1126)
______________________I______________
I I
Geoffrey Despenser (d. ca. 1160) Ivo de Alspath
I __________________________________
I I
Thomas Despenser (d. ca. 1207) Elias Despenser (d.s.p.)
________I______________________________
I I I
Thomas (d. 1218) Hugh (d. 1238) Geoffrey (d. 1251)

That Thomas Despenser had a brother Elias is shown by a charter of Ivo de Alspath, granting land in Alspath, Warwickshire to the monks of Kirby, which is witnessed by Thomas dispensatore and Elias, his brother [7]. Elias Despenser was granted part of the manor of Arnesby, Leicestershire by Henry II, which in 1211-12 was held by his brother Thomas Despenser, indicating that Elias died without heirs before this date [8].

I would like to point out that the identification of Ansketil as the founder of the Despenser family is not a new discovery. A footnote in Josiah Wedgwood's review of early Staffordshire history, printed in 1918, states, "Aschetillus dispensator, i.e., Ansketyl, founder of the great House of Despencer" [9]. Something that seems to have been overlooked during the last 100 years.

Best regards,

John

References:
1. John Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901), 302
2. John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the county of Leicester, Vol. 3, Part 2, (1804), 817
3. Shakespeare Centre Library and Archive, Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/192]
4. Calendar of Charter Rolls, Vol. 5, (1916), 103
5. John Horace Round, The Burton Abbey Surveys, English Historical Review, 20 (1905), 275-289
6. C.G.O Bridgeman, The Burton Abbey Twelfth Century Surveys, Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Third Series 1915 (1918), 225
7. Shakespeare Centre Library and Archive, Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/524]
8. Hubert Hall, ed., Red Book of the Exchequer, Vol. 2 (1896), 586
9. Josiah C. Wedgwood, Early Staffordshire History, Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Third Series 1915 (1918), 168

johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 10, 2014, 1:19:26 AM6/10/14
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Dear all,

As a confirmation of the identification of Ansketil Despenser as the ancestor of the comital Despenser family, I note that in an inquisition to return the
value of the lands in Staffordshire, which had been held by Hugh le Despencer, late Earl of Winchester in 1329, he was found to be holding land in Waterfal.

Commission to William le Botiller of Weme and roger Hilary. Guldeford. 10 March 3 Edward III. [1329.]
Extent and inquisition :- Stafford. Thursday ... 3 Edward III.
Hugh le Despenser, late earl of Winchester, held in co. Stafford a third part of the manor of Alstanesfeld and tenements in Denston, Watrefal and Ruyshton Spenser. Extent given.
Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous (Chancery), Vol. 2 (1916), 266, No. 1073

Best regards,

John


Robert Spencer

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Jun 10, 2014, 8:10:17 AM6/10/14
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Thank you John.

Can you Identify and place this Richard in this same family??

Richard Despenser of Burton, and Holm, Notts.

" Habemus in Burton, de dono Ricardi Dilpensatoris,
de Burton, annuum redditum XLS. recipend' de
Amabilia filia Willielmi, filii Yvonis de Prestewold,
pro una bovata terre in Burton, fine tofto. Hanc
bovatam terre predicta Amabilia & heredes sui tenent
de nobis & successoribus nostris per cartam libere &
quiete; reddendo indc nobis & successoribus nostris
Xhd. ad n terminos; fcil', ad Pafcha xxa\ & ad
Mich* xxcf. & capitalibus dominis dimidiam libram
cumini ad Natale Domini, pro omni servicio & exactione
ad nobis pertinentibus, salvo forinseco servicio
de quodam prato. Item habemus, de dono ejufdem
Ricardi Dispenfatoris, quoddam pratum quod dicitur
Holm, quod jacet inter divisas de Brocton & Hickling;
& quatuor feliones, cum prato adjacente, juxta divisas
de Brocton, in liberam, puram, & perpetuam eleemosinam.
Mem', redditus i n s . inict."10

Second question: is Ivo de Prestwald the same as Ivo de Alspath??

Ivo de Ellespathe occurs in about 1155 in manor of Alspath. 'Ivone filio Aschetilli', witness to confirmation of a gift to St.
Werburgh's abbey of Raby, co. Warwicks., ca. 1135-40 [Barraclough,
charter #21 - from P.R.O., C.53 (Chancery Charter Rolls), no. 73,
m. 10
Page 155: The church of Alspath was confirmed to the monks of Coventry Priory
c. 1160 by Ivo de Allespath,] and again c. 1230 by his grandson James le Bret.

Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 10, 2014, 9:19:01 AM6/10/14
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From Footnotes: Staffordshire Historical Collections, vol. 5 part 1
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=461

The Burton Cartulary. Burton was a Benedictine Abbey, founded early in the 11th century. The cartulary is a collection of charters and other documents which the abbey compiled as proof that it owned its lands.
Folios 5-18 (out of sequence)

Waterfall was held under the Despencers, Earls of Winchester, temp. E. III. (Inquisitions), and this deed gives us the names of two ancestors of this great historical family, of whom no mention is made by Dugdale in his "Baronage." Dugdale in fact was unable to carry back the history of this branch of the Despencers further than the Hugh le Despencer who was Sheriff of Staffordshire 8 Henry III.

Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 11, 2014, 11:30:07 AM6/11/14
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John can you please translate this , I believe it relates to Anschitil..

This ties into the information the John Ravilous posted re: a charter
confirming a gift of land to Garendon Abbey by Hugh de Berges,
and confirmed by his son Ansketil (i.e. Anschetil de Berges).
The gift was confirmed by the uncles of Ansketil:

'..ego Turstinus de Queniburgo cum consilio et con-/
sensu Radulphi fratris mei ...' [1]


The exact dating of this charter is not resolved to date
(I am hoping to hear from Dr. Postles on the matter). However,
if the earlier date of ca. 1133-1135 (close on the foundation of
Garendon Abbey in 1133 by Robert, Earl of Leicester) is correct,
then the 'Radulf de Queniburg' you have found may be the son, or
grandson, of either Thurstan or Radulf de Queniborough.

Several questions that I have at present (directly related
or not):

The Leicester survey of ca. 1124-1129 [2]
i

1.. The Leicester survey [2] also identifies two holdings or
areas, which were held by one Anschetil or Asketil:

A. 1st paragraph, H[underdum] de Lanegeton'

'In sscanketon' Comes Lerc[estriæ] x. car. Ansch' ij. car.'

B. 2nd paragraph, H[undredum] de Chiburd'

'.-In eadem villa xii. car. de feodo Ansch'. In alia
chiburd' Walt[erus] de Bell'campo xj. car., ..'

Identification of this particular Ansketil, and whether
these holdings have any relation to Burton on the Wolds (or other
- future - Despenser holdings) may be helpful in the current
endeavour. If the above is part of the 'fee of Anketil de Berges'
of which Thomas le Despenser held Burton in 1166, then, we should
be that much closer....



NOTES

[1] Dr. David A. Postles (University of Leicester), Medieval
Palaeography: Transcriptions and Translations of Charters,
published at http://www.le.ac.uk/elh/pot/char2.html
a twelfth-century charters from the
cartulary of Garendon Abbey [BL Lansdowne MS 415]

[2] The Leicestershire Survey(1124-1129), Extract from Feudal
England, XIth & XIIth Centuries by J. H. Round. Published
1909. pp 196-214

from: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~framland/framland/fs1.htm

TEXT OF THE SURVEY.

"Conies Lerc[estri]æ vj. car.

H[underdum] de Lanegeton'.-In eadem villa Comes Lerc[estriæ] xj. car. et j.
virg. Ibidem Ric[ardus] Basset iii. car. et. j. virg. In thorp Eustaci[us]
iij. car. et. iii. virg. In alia Langeton' Abbas de Burg' iiij. car. et iii.
virg. Ibidem Henricus de pport j. car. In thurlington idem Henricus xij. car.
In sscanketon' Comes Lerc[estriæ] x. car. Ansch' ij. car.

H[undredum] de Chiburd '.-In eadem villa xii. car. de feodo Ansch'. In alia
chiburd' Walt[erus] de Bell' campo xj. car., Ricardus Basset j. car. In
bocton Comes Leicestriæ xij. car. In carleton' idem Comes x. car. Et Monachi
Sancti Arnulphi v. virg. Et de ssoch' Regis iij. virg.

H[undredum] de Knossinton.-In eadem villa ij. car. de Honore. de Blida. Et
Henricus de ferr' iij. car. et. iii. virg. In Osolinstona Rex D[avid] vij.
car. In Picwell et in Lucerthorp de feudo Rogeri ed Moubray xv. car. In
Neubotel Robertus de ferr' j. car. et dim.

In Burg' Marm' iij. car. In Balbegrave vj. car. iij. bov, minus de Soch[a]
Regis. In Mardefeud iij. car. de eadem Soch[a]. In alia Mardefeud iij. car.

GOSECOTE WAP'.

H[undredum] de Lodinton[e], in Sceftinton[e] Norm[anus] de Verdun viij. car.
et dim. Ricardus Bass[et] iii. car. et dim. In Gokebia Normannus de Verdun
vj. car. In Adelacston[e] v. car. et j. virg. de feodo Regis David. Et de
Soch[a] Regis iij. virg. In Ludinton[e] Ricardus Basset xii. car. In Thorp et
in Twyford Ricardus de Roll[os] ix. car. j. bov. minus. Ibidem Henricus de
ferr[ariis] ix. car. j. bov. minus. Et de Soch[a] Regis v. car. Ex hiis
Grimbaldus tenet dim. car. et Rex D[avid] j. car. In Norton{e] x. bov. Walter
de Bello campo vj. car. Et Roger de Moubray iiij. car. et iij. virg.

H[undredum] de Tilton.-In eadem villa ij. car. 5. bov. minus de Soch[a]
Regis. Ibidem Walt[erus] de Bello campo iij. car. Archiepiscopus j. car. In
Neuton[e] Walter de Bello campo iiij. car. Roger de Moubray viii. car. In
Lousebia Rex David xij. car. In Watebergia Dominicum Regis iiij. car. In
Hallested Normannus de Verdun iii. car. 5. virg. minus.

H[undredum] de bebia.-In eadem villa Abbas de Croyland xij. car. In Cahiham
iiij. car. de Soch[a] Regis. Comes Lercestrie ii. car. In Hung'ton ix. car.
In Siglebia ix. car. et. vj. bov. et dim. De Comite Lercestriæ. Ibidem Comes
Cestrie iij. car. Ibidem Ricardus Basset ij. car. Robertus de ferrer[iis] v.
bov.

H[undredum] de Barkbia.-In eadem villa v. car. de feodo de Belvar[o]. In
Hamelton' et in thorp vi. car. de eadem feudo, et de feodo Comitis Lercestriæ
j. car. et dim. In Thormedeston Canonici iij. car. In Crocheston[e] ij. car.
et j. bov. et dim. de Soch[a] Regis. In Neubold[e] Robertus de ferer[iis] j.
car. et dim. In Barnesby Rex iij. car. et dim. bov. Ibidem Comes Lercestriæ
xiij. bov. In Gadesby [t]erra Reg[is] viij. car. et dim. et dim. et dim.
(sic) bov.
Ibidem Episcopus Lincolniensis viij. bov. Comes Lercestræ j. car. et dim.
bov. Ricardus Basset dim. car. Rex D[avid] ij. car.

H[undvedum] de Essebia.-In eadem villa Rex David v. car. Ibidem Hugo de
Lerc[estria] j. car. In Humberstay Roger de Ram[is] viij. car. Ibidem Walter
de Mustere j. car. Rad[ulfus] de Martinwast iij. car. In Mardegrave Comes
Lercestriæ xij. car. In thurmedeston idem Comes car. (sic). Idem in Burstall
ix. car. Idem in Anlepia vij. car. Idem in Anesting[e] vj. car.

H[undredum] de Resebia.-In eadem villa Ricardus Basset v. car. Ibidem Comes
Cestrie ij. car. et dim. Rex David iiij car. et dim. In Quenburg[o] xii. car.
de feodo de Belvar[o]. In Soften[e] Comes Lercestriæ xij. car. In Brokesbya
Comes (sic) Cestrie v. car. Rex David j. car. quam Pip[er]d tenet. In
Quenebia vj. car. De feodo de Belvar[o]. In thurketleston[e] de feodo Comitis
viii. car. In Cropeston[e] iii. car. In Rodeleia terra Regis v. car.

H[undrednm] de Magna Dalbia.-In eadem villa Episcopus Lincolniensis ix. car.
et dim. Radulfus Basset j. car. et iij. bov. Ibidem Wil[elmus] Gam[erarius]
j. car. In frisebia Comes Cestrie iii. car., et de Soch[a] Regis viij. car.
In Rederbia Comes cestrie vi. car. In Asfordebia Comes Lercestriæ xiij. car.
In Wartnadeby de Soch[a] Regis vi. car.

Hundredum de Dalbia super Wald'-In eadem villa ix. car. de feodo Edwardi de
sar[esbiria], Comes Lercestrie iij. car. In Grimestona de Soch[a] Regis iij.
car. j. bov. et dim. minus. Ricardus Basset iii. car. In Saxebia Comes
Lercestrie v. car. et de Soch[a] Regis j. car. In Siwaldebia Comes Lercestrie
vj. car. In Cosinton[e] Comes Cestrie vj. car. In Horton[e] Robertus de Jor'
ij. car.

H[undredum] de Turstanestona.-In eadem villa Thomas x. car. et iij. virg.
Ibidem Roger de Moubray xiiij. bov. In Wileges ij. car. de eodem feudo. In
Rachedal[e] vj. car. de eodem feudo. In Houbia vij. car. et j. virg. de feodo
Thome. Ibidem de feodo Albemarl' iiij. car. et iij. virg.

Notes: John Ravilious

Another connecting piece to the puzzle:

The entry from the Leicester survey (ca. 1124-1129) which
states (see immediate prior post),

' H[undredum] de Chiburd'

'.-In eadem villa xii. car. de feodo Ansch'. In alia
chiburd' Walt[erus] de Bell'campo xj. car., ..'
I find that Chiburd' evolved in time to Kibworth:

Chiburd/Chiburde -> Chyburd -> Shyburd -> Keeburth -> to
the 'modern' Kibworth, or two Kibworths:

Kibworth Harcourt, and
Kibworth Beauchamp

It would appear the 'alia Chiburd' of Walter de Beauchamp
referenced above in 1124/9 became Kibworth Beauchamp; how
well does that lend a hand in identifying Ansketil/Anschetil
of Kibworth (above) as a member of the Harcourt family?

more notes on Ascketil de Harcourt.

George F Farnham's article in Leics. Archeol
Soc 15, 103ff, on 'The Harcourt Family'? Some of it's a recit. of
Round's article in _The Ancestor_, 11:155, on Hascetill de Haruc as
witness to Roger E of Warwick's settlement of the marr. of Roger's
da. Agnes to Geoff. de Clinton -- it describes a Harcourt pedigree in William Salt of 1914 that names Anchitel de Harcourt's sons and cites Yvo in connection with Wolvey, Garendon Abbey, etc. (Yvo gives land in Wolvey, held under
E of Warwick as a marriage portion with his sis. Beatrice, and
Farnham reconstructs Yvo and Yvo's son Robert's gifts to Garendon
Abbey.)

Robert Spencer

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Jun 11, 2014, 12:45:48 PM6/11/14
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John, it appears there were 2 Asketil de Berges one perhaps had an alias of Prestwald, one had a a wife named Dionesia, the other wife's name was Rohese.

Hope that helps..

Robert

johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 11, 2014, 2:09:09 PM6/11/14
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Dear Robert,

'..ego Turstinus de Queniburgo cum consilio et consensu Radulphi fratris mei ...

I, Thurstan de Queniborough, with the advice and consent of Ralph my brother.

The two holdings of Ansketil in the Leicestershire survey made between 1124 and 1129, of were in Shangton (sscanketon') and Kibworth (Chiburd').
See: John Horace Round, "The Leicestershire Survey (1124-1129)", Feudal England (1909) pp. 196-214
https://archive.org/details/feudalenglandhis00rounuoft

There is no evidence that Shangton or Kibworth were ever held by the Despensers:
'Shangton', A History of the County of Leicestershire: Volume 5: Gartree Hundred (1964), pp. 293-297.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22070

'Kibworth', A History of the County of Leicestershire: Volume 5: Gartree Hundred (1964), pp. 167-187. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22057

Whoever this Ansketil was, it does not appear that he was the same person as Ansketil dispensator, the ancestor of the Despensers. Please note that Ansketil (in all its various spellings) was a fairly common name in 12th century England.

Regards,

John

Robert Spencer

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Jun 11, 2014, 4:39:43 PM6/11/14
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Dear John, here is another Ivo de Alspathe connection to Bedfordshire which I also previously tried to connect..to Robert le Despenser. of Beeston, Beds.

Also a connection to the same Richard Despenser of Burton , I asked your opinion on before, in relation to William le Bret de Alspath.

3 Ed 1 " Habemus in Burton, de dono Ricardi Dilpensatoris,de Burton, annuum redditum XLS. recipend' de Amabilia filia Willielmi, filii Yvonis de Prestewold,pro una bovata terre in Burton, fine tofto. Hancbovatam terre predicta Amabilia & heredes sui tenentde nobis & successoribus nostris per cartam libere &quiete; reddendo indc nobis & successoribus nostrisXhd. ad n terminos; fcil', ad Pafcha xxa\ & adMich* xxcf. & capitalibus dominis dimidiam libramcumini ad Natale Domini, pro omni servicio & exactionead nobis pertinentibus, salvo forinseco serviciode quodam prato. Item habemus, de dono ejufdemRicardi Dispenfatoris, quoddam pratum quod diciturHolm, quod jacet inter divisas de Brocton & Hickling;& quatuor feliones, cum prato adjacente, juxta divisasde Brocton, in liberam, puram, & perpetuam eleemosinam.Mem', redditus i n s . inict."

The line involved is :

Ivo de Alspath, aft 1178, Constable of Coventry, witness to charter in 1141. aka "Ivone" = Aelicia
____________________________________
|
(dau. NN) le Despenser married Warin fitz Fulcher
_____________________________
|
Warin de Aslpath - Stephen de Seagrave had grant of land of Warin, son of Warin fitz Fulcher (grandson of Ivo de Alspath) ' of all his land which he held in Allespathe,with the homage, rents and services of freemen and villeins, etc., to hold of the said Warin,..' dated as 'before 1241'[8]
__________________________________
|
William Brito s. of Warin gave land in Meppershall
to Chicksand priory (Charters to Chicksand Priory, xvi, p. 118). In
1242 William Brito held one and a half hides of the barony at Halton
(Fees, 887).
___________________________
|
Annabelle le Bret de Alspath (2nd wife of her cousin Gerard). She was an co- heiress of Alspath.
___________________________
|
Gerard de Alspathe ( the one who helped Roger Mortimer escape from the Tower of London)

Source: DD, I notice a Willelm Brito holding 1/2 fee of Simon de Beauchamp of
Bedford in 1166. William Brito s. of Warin gave land in Meppershall
to Chicksand priory (Charters to Chicksand Priory, xvi, p. 118). In
1242 William Brito held one and a half hides of the barony at Halton
(Fees, 887). [Red Bk of Exch, ed. Hall (1897), 319-22 -- cited in
DD, 187.] Yes, these sites are all in Beds

al...@mindspring.com

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Jun 11, 2014, 5:24:02 PM6/11/14
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'Parishes: Meriden', A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 4: Hemlingford Hundred (1947), pp. 147-155. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42671&strquery=alspath Date accessed: 19 April 2013.

Shows a somewhat different descent with William son of Walter de Alspath.

"There was another manor of ALSPATH held by a family deriving their name from the place. Ivo de Ellespathe occurs in about 1155, (fn. 52) and in 1202 his daughter Alice was dealing with land in Alspath. (fn. 53) On 1 June 1257 Gerard (II) son of Gerard (I) de Alspath (or Seintliz, said to have married a coheir of Alspath) (fn. 54) received a grant of free warren in his demesne lands of Alspath. (fn. 55) This Gerard (II) about 1270 did homage to Richard de Amundeville at Berkswell for lands of which the location is not specified: (fn. 56) he married one Milicent, (fn. 57) and died in 1282, when his lands, being held of Richard Fitzalan, then a minor, were taken into the king's hands. (fn. 58) About this time a Walter de Alspath is said to have been styled 'lord of Alspath'; (fn. 59) his son William on 22 July 1304 received a grant of free warren here, (fn. 60) which he exercised in 1308 by seizing a ferret and nets belonging to men who were rabbiting on the edge of his wood. (fn. 61) William is said to have had a daughter Annabel who married, as his first wife, Gerard (III) son of Gerard (II). (fn. 62) The second wife of Gerard (III) was Maud, apparently daughter of Osbert de Clinton, (fn. 63) and by her he had a son John, whose daughter Margery married William Cockes. (fn. 64) She, as a widow, sold the estate to John Chetwynd; (fn. 65) and in 1510 William Chetwynd, owner of Meriden Hall, had laid waste 100 acres of arable land, leaving ten men to wander unemployed. (fn. 66)."

Doug Smith

Robert Spencer

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Jun 11, 2014, 8:44:59 PM6/11/14
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Hi Doug, I believe that line descends from Alice de Alspath , there were 5 dau.'s of Ivo, one who's name is unknown married a Warin fitz Fulcher.

The Gerard de Alspathe , who helped Roger Mortimer escape from the Tower of London, had a doube descent from Ivo.

Regards, Robert

al...@mindspring.com

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Jun 12, 2014, 6:03:27 AM6/12/14
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Hi Robert

There may well be a double descent. Both of these descents say the father of Annabel was named William. One says William was son of Walter and the other says William was son of Warin.

Doug Smith

Robert Spencer

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Jun 12, 2014, 7:15:32 AM6/12/14
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Could Warin and William be one and same? I have litigation case that may clear this up, I will post it later today. There was litigation between the dau.'s of with their husbands named in the case.
Dear Doug, you raise a very good point.

But this post regarding Ivo was started in order to show & point out the Richard Despenser, in the Latin text, being involved with this family of Ivo.
Who is this Richard, I keep asking, no one seems to have an answer. I have only see him witness charters when it involves a Bishop of Chester or Warwicks. Could he be a member of the Despenser family and be a Despensatore to one of the Bishops. Being a Despenser and granting land to Ivo and his heirs seems to indicate he is a member of this family.
I cant find anyone else ever mentioning him before, I believe he is connected and may help in our efforts to push the Despenser line back or at least show they have connections to Holm and Hickling, Notts.,which is very close to Loughborough, and to Geoffrey Despenser.

Have you found any lands belonging to Despenser's in Nottingham in Holm and Hickilng area close to the border.


Thanks
Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 12, 2014, 7:31:03 AM6/12/14
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Walter le Bret sued Warin son of Fulcher, Thomas de Arden, Gerard de
Senlis ?, and Walter son of William. and their wives for a messuage in
Coventry. Alice is the dtr. who married Walter le Bret.
Lordship, Knighthood and Locality A study in English Society c. 1180-c. 1280_.Ivo can be found in _The Early Records of Medieval Coventry_ Peter R. Coss, British Academy Records of Social and Economic History, n.s. 11(Oxford, 1986)
nos. 2,3,8,12.

So that rules out them being the same person, but shows they probably both married dau.s of Ivo de Alspath.

I think it implies the 5 dau's married a Walter le Bret, a Warin de Fulcher, a Thomas de Arden, a Gerard Sienlitz and a William who had died previous to the litigation but who left a son named Walter.

Robert

al...@mindspring.com

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Jun 12, 2014, 7:38:26 AM6/12/14
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Hi Robert

Yes I show the five daughters with those husbands.

As for Richard:

Cartularium Monasterii Sancti Petri Gloucestriæ. Volume I. Edited by William Henry Hart. Longman, Roberts, and Green. London. 1863, pps 376-384.

Which you cited Richard in and a daughter Sybil de "Ewyas" who may have married someone with land in Ewyas as well as Hugh Ledene.
There are numerous familial relationships about the Ledene family including sisters of Hugh named Petronilla, Mabilia, and Sybil. Unfortunately i studied French in high school rather than Latin.

The above sisters appear to have been married to Henry de la Ford, Simon Pssavant, and Richard de Wigmore. It appears that Geoffrey de Ledene and his wife Milicent were the parents of the siblings.

I did not see more Richard the steward.

Doug Smith

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 12, 2014, 9:17:57 AM6/12/14
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On Tuesday, 10 June 2014 13:10:17 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote:
> Thank you John.
> Can you Identify and place this Richard in this same family??
>
> Richard Despenser of Burton, and Holm, Notts.
>
> " Habemus in Burton, de dono Ricardi Dilpensatoris,
> de Burton, annuum redditum XLS. recipend' de
> Amabilia filia Willielmi, filii Yvonis de Prestewold,
> pro una bovata terre in Burton, fine tofto. Hanc
> bovatam terre predicta Amabilia & heredes sui tenent
> de nobis & successoribus nostris per cartam libere &
> quiete; reddendo indc nobis & successoribus nostris
> Xhd. ad n terminos; fcil', ad Pafcha xxa\ & ad
> Mich* xxcf. & capitalibus dominis dimidiam libram
> cumini ad Natale Domini, pro omni servicio & exactione
> ad nobis pertinentibus, salvo forinseco servicio
> de quodam prato. Item habemus, de dono ejufdem
> Ricardi Dispenfatoris, quoddam pratum quod dicitur
> Holm, quod jacet inter divisas de Brocton & Hickling;
> & quatuor feliones, cum prato adjacente, juxta divisas
> de Brocton, in liberam, puram, & perpetuam eleemosinam.
> Mem', redditus i n s . inict."10
>
> Second question: is Ivo de Prestwald the same as Ivo de Alspath??
>
> Ivo de Ellespathe occurs in about 1155 in manor of Alspath. 'Ivone filio Aschetilli', witness to confirmation of a gift to St.
> Werburgh's abbey of Raby, co. Warwicks., ca. 1135-40 [Barraclough,
> charter #21 - from P.R.O., C.53 (Chancery Charter Rolls), no. 73,
> m. 10
> Page 155: The church of Alspath was confirmed to the monks of Coventry Priory
> c. 1160 by Ivo de Allespath,] and again c. 1230 by his grandson James le Bret.
> Robert

Robert, the extract from the Croxton Abbey cartulary, as quoted by Nichols, means:

"We have in Burton [on the Wolds], by the gift of Richard Dispensator of Burton, 40s. yearly rent received from Amable daughter of William, son of Yvo de Prestwold, for a bovate of land in Burton, without a toft. This bovate of land the aforesaid Amable and her heirs hold from us and our successors by charter freely and quietly; rendering therefor to us and out successors 40s. at two terms, namely at Easter 20s. and at Michaelmas 20s., and to the chief lords 1/2 lb cumin at Christmas, for all service and dues pertaining to us, save foreign service for a certain meadow.

Item, we have, by the gift of the same Richard Dispensator, a certain meadow that is called Holm, which lies between the boundaries of Broughton and Hickling; and 4 selions, with adjacent meadow, beside the bounds of Broughton, in free, pure and perpetual alms."

Holm is not a habitation but a piece of low-lying meadow next to the Dalby Stream which divides the parish (and manor) of Hickling from that of Broughton. ('holm' is a description more than a name - it was a word in the local Anglo-Scandinavian dialect meaning 'island' and was commonly used to describe low-lying land next to watercourses or marshes.)

Yvo de Prestwold was the tenant of a freeholding in Burton - his only relationship with Richard Dispensator is that he was Richard's tenant, or possibly the tenant of a predecessor to Richard; it isn't clear whether at the time when Richard gave the holding to the abbey the tenant was Amable or her father William or her grandfather Yvo.

Yvo was a common forename at this time, and there doesn't seem to be much reason to identify this Yvo de Prestwold, tenant of a rather small freeholding in Burton on the Wolds (probably about 15 acres), with Yvo de Alspath. Especially as it is uncertain when Yvo de Prestwold was living.

Matt Tompkins

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 12, 2014, 10:37:41 AM6/12/14
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On Thursday, June 12, 2014 2:17:57 PM UTC+1, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> > " Habemus in Burton, de dono Ricardi Dilpensatoris,
> > de Burton, annuum redditum XLS. recipend' de
> > Amabilia filia Willielmi, filii Yvonis de Prestewold,
> > pro una bovata terre in Burton, fine tofto. Hanc
> > bovatam terre predicta Amabilia & heredes sui tenent
> > de nobis & successoribus nostris per cartam libere &
> > quiete; reddendo indc nobis & successoribus nostris
> > Xhd. ad n terminos; fcil', ad Pafcha xxa\ & ad
> > Mich* xxcf. & capitalibus dominis dimidiam libram
> > cumini ad Natale Domini, pro omni servicio & exactione
> > ad nobis pertinentibus, salvo forinseco servicio
> > de quodam prato. Item habemus, de dono ejufdem
>
> "We have in Burton [on the Wolds], by the gift of Richard Dispensator of Burton, 40s. yearly rent received from Amable daughter of William, son of Yvo de Prestwold, for a bovate of land in Burton, without a toft. This bovate of land the aforesaid Amable and her heirs hold from us and our successors by charter freely and quietly; rendering therefor to us and out successors 40s. at two terms, namely at Easter 20s. and at Michaelmas 20s., and to the chief lords 1/2 lb cumin at Christmas, for all service and dues pertaining to us, save foreign service for a certain meadow.
>

After posting that it occurred to me that 40s. would have been an impossibly large rent from a bovate, especially a free one, so I've just had a look at the original text in Nichols and find that it was actually 40d. (and 20d. at each of Easter and Michaelmas) - a much more plausible amount.

Matt

Robert Spencer

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Jun 12, 2014, 12:41:59 PM6/12/14
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Thank you Doug and Matt for your time and patience. Thank you Matt for looking at a Prestwald gift and translation.

One more question: Is there a possible connection to Richard Dispensator to Geoffrey Dispensator. Whereas I see Geoffrey as being the same as Geoffrey de Hickling, and Richard gave a gift of land called Holm that is near Hickling. Have you seen him in other Charters.

al...@mindspring.com

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Jun 12, 2014, 5:38:42 PM6/12/14
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On Thursday, June 12, 2014 12:41:59 PM UTC-4, Robert Spencer wrote:
> Thank you Doug and Matt for your time and patience. Thank you Matt for looking at a Prestwald gift and translation.
>
>
>
> One more question: Is there a possible connection to Richard Dispensator to Geoffrey Dispensator. Whereas I see Geoffrey as being the same as Geoffrey de Hickling, and Richard gave a gift of land called Holm that is near Hickling. Have you seen him in other Charters.

Certainly possible. I have not seen other useful charters.

Doug Smith

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 13, 2014, 4:08:14 AM6/13/14
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From: Matt Tompkins
Sent: 12 June 2014 14:18
>
> Yvo de Prestwold was the tenant of a freeholding in Burton - his only relationship with Richard Dispensator is that he was Richard's tenant, or possibly the tenant of a predecessor to Richard; it isn't clear whether at the time when Richard gave the holding to the abbey the tenant was Amable or her father William or her grandfather Yvo.
>
> Yvo was a common forename at this time, and there doesn't seem to be much reason to identify this Yvo de Prestwold, tenant of a rather small freeholding in Burton on the Wolds (probably about 15 acres), with Yvo de Alspath. Especially as it is uncertain when Yvo de Prestwold was living.
>

It may be possible to give some dates to Yvo de Prestwold and his son William. George Farnham's article in TLA&HS 17, 'Prestwold and its Hamlets in Medieval Times' contains two early references to an Ivo de Prestwold and his son William, and another to a William son of Ivo, who may be the same people as those named in the Croxton cartulary:

p. 14. 1251-2, Book of Fees, Ivo de Prestwold appears in a list of 8 tenants in Hoton near Prestwold. One tenant holds 8 bovates, Ivo and another each have 4, and the remaining 5 each have 2 bovates.

p. 19 1285, 'William the son of Ivo de Prestwold' is one of five tenants of Simon Basset of Sapcote whom he sued in the Common Pleas over a free tenement that they held from him in Prestwold.

p. 24 1327, 1332, a 'William son of Ivo' pays the lay subsidy in Burton, 3s. 3d. in 1327 and 3s. in 1332. There are 12 taxpayers in Burton in 1327 and 14 in 1332. In the latter year one man pays 6s. and the remaining thirteen pay either 3s. or 2s.

These people are all clearly peasant farmers.

http://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/FarnhamPrestwoldPagesfromVolume17.pdf

Matt Tompkins

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 13, 2014, 5:03:20 AM6/13/14
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On Thursday, 12 June 2014 17:41:59 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote:
>
> One more question: Is there a possible connection to Richard Dispensator to Geoffrey Dispensator. Whereas I see Geoffrey as being the same as Geoffrey de Hickling, and Richard gave a gift of land called Holm that is near Hickling. Have you seen him in other Charters.
>


The Richard Dispensator of Burton on the Wolds who gave a bovate in Burton and a meadow in Hickling to Croxton Abbey seems to have lived about a century later than the Geoffrey Despenser whose son Thomas gave land in Burton to Garendon Abbey, but they must surely have belonged to the same family.

I'm unclear what evidence there is for the existence of this 'Geoffrey de Hickling', so it is difficult to comment on him. In an earlier post (13 April, subject: 'Geoffrey "Galfiridus" le Despenser update') you said:

"Galfridus Dispensator de Hickeling. ... , held land at Hickling, Notts. a massage and 20 acres and 2 meadows. Owned land and cottage in Burton on Wolds, some of the The Hickling property was granted to the priory and still mentioned at the time of Henry Despenser- Bishop of Norwich and his brother Hugh le Despenser, descendants. In a deed regarding Rempston, Geoffrey is named as "of Hickling". He is also believed to be the same as Geoffery de Rempston, Nottinghamshire."

What was your source for these references?

Matt

Robert Spencer

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Jun 13, 2014, 6:36:37 AM6/13/14
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Hi, Matt, I will get those sources sorted out soon, in the meantime can you please look at this and try to date it by whatever means and translate it please to English. I can't place the time period of course, perhaps you can.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=mVg-AQAAIAAJ&q=Galfridus+rampeston&dq=Galfridus+rampeston&hl=en&sa=X&ei=db5GU4zSMK_lsATSnYKQAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

It relates to a Geoffrey de Hickling and the place Rempston is mentioned also in the text, but unfortunately it's only a snippet, so enlarge it, unless you can access the original source. It says its pt. 1. The Hundred of East Gascote by John Nichols 1971 - Leicestershire (England), But I looked at both below with no success:

The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester : Vol. 3, Part 2
http://cdm15407.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/2904/rec/1

And also at part 1 here :

http://cdm15407.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/6931/rec/5

Hope you have better luck..

Thank you for the help..
Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 13, 2014, 7:03:55 AM6/13/14
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Dear Matt, would the following help date for date Thomas Despenser..

Sir Christopher Hatton 's book of Seals
Charter N°3 circa. 1170
"Notification by Thomas The Despenser, Geof. de Jort , Will. de Munford,
Henry son of Serlo and Rich. his brother and Rob son of Picot that they have
given 'Locholmuvro de fulifen beside Holywell Hall to Garendon abbey"

and Garendon Cartulary in Monasticon by Dugdale T5 p332 : we have in a
charter (EdwIII):
"Concessionem etiam et confirmationem quas idem comes per idem scriptum
fecit eisdem abbati et monachis , de donationibus quas Robertus de Torz
(Jorz) , Willielmus de Torz (Jorz), et Thomas Dispensiarus fecerunt
praedictis monachis in feudo ipsius comitis de Haliwellhawe (Holywell Hall)

Regards, Robert

Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)

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Jun 13, 2014, 8:00:49 AM6/13/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
From: Robert Spencer
Sent: 13 June 2014 11:36
That snippet says, so far as I can read it:

To all etc. Geoffrey Dispensator of Hickeling, greetings. Know that I have given etc to God and the church of St Mary of Gerondon, and to the monks serving God there, for the good of my soul, three roods of meadow, of my fee, in Thrumandole, in the territory of Rampeston; namely those three roods which Hugh de Monte formerly held of me, to hold etc. Witnesses: Philip ...

I'm afraid I can't date it, nor do I know where this passage might be found in Nichols' History of Leicestershire. But it must be unlikely that this is the same man as Geoffrey Dispenser son of Ansketil and father of Thomas etc, since this man lives in Hickling, and it seems unlikely that the other Geoffrey would have lived there.

Incidentally, it's not really right to refer to this man as Geoffrey de Hickling - he was Geoffrey Dispensator of Hickling, ie residing in Hickling. He seems to have been rather small fry - I gather from Thoroton's Nottinghamshire that he did not hold a manor in Hickling, so his landholding there must have been submanorial, and his gift of three roods of meadow in Rempstone was a small one, the sort a wealthy peasant might make (3 roods is just 3/4 of an acre - meadow was the most valuable type of land and most peasant landholdings only included a few acres of it , but nevertheless this was not a substantial endowment).

He is, of course, not the same man as the Geoffrey de Hickling who held the manor of Hickling in Norfolk from either Thomas de Valognes or Eustace de Vescy in 1212.

Matt Tompkins

Robert Spencer

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Jun 13, 2014, 11:48:24 AM6/13/14
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Matt, thank you for that rendering and evaluation.

I have two points. I know who you refer to in Norfolk the Geoffrey de Hickling whose father was Brianus (Brian), but this Hickling is in Notts., on the border only 4-6 miles from Loughborough, across the border.

I believe one of my sources for Geoffrey Dispensator of Hickling was that Thoronton, had him as "of Hickling" and as the ancestor of the Despenser's. I'm still looking for that source and link, I remember him actually stating that he normally would not elaborate, but as this family was of his county and was well known to him, that he was going into more detail or something similar ( from memory).

Thanks again, your very fast.

Robert

al...@mindspring.com

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Jun 13, 2014, 11:51:47 AM6/13/14
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I found this at kettlenet.uk for what its worth:

"Indicative of where we start from, these two examples are twelfth-century
charters from the cartulary of Garendon Abbey [BL Lansdowne MS 415]. We will
continue to concentrate on charters, but later in the course considering some
other classes of document. Our first priority, however, is to become
proficient with the diplomatic, Latin and palaeography of charters from the
twelfth through to the early fourteenth centuries."

3.
clesie sancti andree eiusdem uille Preterea concessi predictis monachis et
hac mea carta confirmaui donationem Hugonis et Asketilli filii eius/

the church of Saint André of the same village besides having given the
aforesaid monk and this, my charter, confirms this gift to Hugo and his son,
Asketill

4.
Hugo de Berges et Asketillus filius eius nepos meus deo et ecclesie sancte
MARIE de Gerold', tres uidelicet/

Hugo of Berges and his son Asketill, my god-son, and the holy church Mary of
Gerold, three obvious

4.
ecclesie inde aliquam iniuriam intulit ego Turstanus et fratres mei cum
predicto nepote nostro Aske-/

the church thenceforth unjust within, I Thurstan (?) and my brother predict
our descendent Asketill

- Dr. D.A. Postles
"Medieval Palaeography: Transcriptions and Translations of Charters" [web]
1998
English translation provided by Anna Kettle & Eric R. Anctil

It appears a bit garbled.

Doug Smith

Robert Spencer

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Jun 13, 2014, 12:37:30 PM6/13/14
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Wow Doug, this is very interesting..great find..Thanks so much.
A quick translation of online for:

ecclesie inde aliquam iniuriam intulit ego Turstanus et fratres mei cum
predicto nepote nostro Aske-/

the church thenceforth unjust within, I Thurstan (?) and my brother predict
our descendent Asketill

Online translation:

"church from an injury inflicted, I Turstan and my brothers when I said our nephew Aske"

Perhaps Matt will render his much better translation..if willing..

If this is the same Asketil ,then would this mean he has an uncle Turston or Thurston???

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 13, 2014, 1:03:57 PM6/13/14
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On Friday, 13 June 2014 16:48:24 UTC+1, Robert Spencer wrote:
<snip>
> I believe one of my sources for Geoffrey Dispensator of Hickling was that Thoronton, had him as "of Hickling" and as the ancestor of the Despenser's. I'm still looking for that source and link, I remember him actually stating that he normally would not elaborate, but as this family was of his county and was well known to him, that he was going into more detail or something similar ( from memory).
>

I'm not aware of Thoroton saying anything like that in his Antiquities of Nottinghamshire. He does have a couple of interesting references to families called Dispenser living in the area in the 13th century:

On p. 41 (of Throsby's 1797 edition of the Antiquities) he mentions a freeholder family called Spencer living in Gotham, about 5 miles west of Hickling, in his own time (the 1660s) 'whose ancestors have held some Thing (two Yard-Land, I think) and been resident here since the time of Sir Saher de St. Andrew, about the beginning of the reign of King Henry the Third' (on p. 40 he mentions a Robert Despencer, presumably one of this family, who was among several people sued by the lord of a manor in Gotham in 11 Hen III - 1226-7).

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gz4uAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA41&dq=thoroton+nottinghamshire+%22two+Yard-Land%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ESubU5yrDKfH7Abj0oCAAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thoroton%20nottinghamshire%20%22two%20Yard-Land%22&f=false

On p. 354 he mentions a fine dated 42 Hen III [1257-8] in which a Robert de Hawton gave the Priory of Thurgarton 10 bovates of land in Hawton (about 7 miles north of Hickling) in exchange for the advowson of Hawton - one of the villeins or serfs who were transferred to the Priory along with the land was Walter le Dispenser.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=03tbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=thoroton+nottinghamshire+%22Walter+le+Dispenser%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AySbU_HnLMT5PJH6gYAN&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=thoroton%20nottinghamshire%20%22Walter%20le%20Dispenser%22&f=false

Matt

Matt Tompkins

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Jun 13, 2014, 1:35:08 PM6/13/14
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It seems this kettle.net site has copied a page from Dave Postle's Medieval Palaeography website (which he created around 2000, as a teaching aid for the university of Leicester's MA in English Local History course, I think). Its present home is the Anglo-Norman website, here:

http://paleo.anglo-norman.org/medfram.html

The page which has been copied is here:

http://paleo.anglo-norman.org/charfram.html

but now contains the texts of two other charters from the Garendon Abbey chartulary - I suspect kettle.net copied an early version.

The charters on kettle.net are probably ones which were abstracted by Nichols and are already known, but for what it's worth the phrase you're interested in, 'ego Turstanus et fratres mei cum predicto nepote nostro Aske-', means 'I Thurstan and my brothers and our aforesaid nepos Aske-'. I haven't translated the word 'nepos' because it is famously impossible to do so, having no direct equivalent in English - it has been much discussed in soc.gen.med.

Matt Tompkins

Robert Spencer

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Jun 13, 2014, 5:10:14 PM6/13/14
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Thanks Matt for the links and the translation..

This looks like it refers to Thurston de Queniborough, and his brothers referring to their nephew Asketil de Berges. In this case nepos probably means nephew , rather than Kin. This would also confirm it more likely that his father was Hugh de Berges, as we know he married a Queniborough.

What does anyone else think??

Robert

Douglas Richardson

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Jun 14, 2014, 7:16:34 PM6/14/14
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On Thursday, June 12, 2014 7:17:57 AM UTC-6, Matt Tompkins wrote:

< Yvo was a common forename at this time, and there doesn't seem to be much <reason to identify this Yvo de Prestwold, tenant of a rather small freeholding <in Burton on the Wolds (probably about 15 acres), with Yvo de Alspath. <Especially as it is uncertain when Yvo de Prestwold was living.

Dear Matt ~

Yvo/Ivo is one of those names that editors and archivists leave in the Latin form. What is this name in the vernacular?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)

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Jun 15, 2014, 3:14:50 AM6/15/14
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From: Douglas Richardson
Sent: 15 June 2014 00:16
>
> Yvo/Ivo is one of those names that editors and archivists leave in the Latin form. What is this name in the vernacular?
>

Ive or Yve in English and, I think, also in French, though I suspect at the time of the Conquest it might have been Ivo(n).

Matt

Robert Spencer

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Jun 16, 2014, 11:22:46 AM6/16/14
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So with the Hugh de Berges again shown as the father of Ansketil Despenser or seemingly proved once again, ( the first time proved by Ravilious and Chris Nash and others) do we agree that the Family tree appears like this: ( revised from John's 1st post)with conjectures as noted.
1. Hugh de Berges = sister of Thurston de Quineburg
2. Ansketil Despenser (d. bef. 1126) held land in Waterfal, Stafforshire = Rohese
3. Geoffrey Despenser (d. ca. 1160) - Ivo de Alspath (->1178)- Ansketil de Berges= Dionesia
4. Thomas Despenser (d. ca. 1207) - Elias Despenser (d.s.p.) (cousin)

Children of Thomas Despenser = Recaura
Thomas d. 1218) (CP, iv, 260)= Joan, dau. of Hugh de Insula (Red Book, ii, 584
Hugh (d. 1238)
Geoffrey (d. 1251)
Rohese = Stephen de Seagrave
Henry (->1213) kt. of Lord Stapleford
William
Robert

From John Ravilous posts:

For proof for Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] as cousin to Thomas Despenser :

The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges:
" De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'.
Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia
pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s.
....
Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro
eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19]

For children of Thomas Despenser :
He gives a few more children of Geoffrey Despenser: * Note: A Henry and Robert Despenser are both confirmed to have witnessed charters with brother Thomas , and it seems Sir. Hugh Despenser gifted land in Willmington, Bedfordshire, to his brother Henry which he in turn gifted to the priory and became a kt. of Lord Stapleford of Willmington.
Geoffrey ( dvp < 1191), Thomas le Despenser, of Loughborough(-<1218), Rohese, m. Stephen de Segrave, Henry (->1213), Robert (->1215), Geoffrey le Despenser, of Martley (-1251), and William .

The source for the son "William" comes from Douglas Richardson, who in 2002, posted that Thomas le Despenser (died c. 1207)
had another son, William le Despenser, who died in or before 1242, leaving lands at Loughborough, Leicestershire. William's heir was his
nephew, Hugh le Despenser II (died 1265). For evidence of William's existence, see Curia Regis Rolls, 17 (1991): 140, 291-292.

Proof's for Hugh de Berges:

Hugo de Berges', made a gift of 3 carucates to Garendon abbey in Burton
on the Wolds, later confirmed by son Ansketil together with his
(Ansketil's) uncles Thurstan de Queniborough and Radulf[2]. This gift
occurred in 1133 (year of the foundation of Garendon) or later. (also Nichols, Hist. Leicestershire vol. III, courtesy Clive West)
Re: Wife of Hugh de Berges : she was the sister of Thurstan de Queniborough and his brother Radulf, her father may have been the William de Queniborough who held
lands of Geoffrey de la Guerche at Domesday Book, 1086., evidently had lands in Burton on the Wolds and Prestwold, co. Leics.
as her maritagium[2].
We know that Geoffrey and Ivo were brothers from the
charter evidence provided by Barraclough in The Charters
of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester. See prior threads
on SGM, esp. <Origins of the Despensers (con't)> (31 Dec
2002 et seq.). The charters which are particularly
relevant are #s 25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 72, 73, 82, 83,
85, and 99.
The witnesses to these charters are given, in part, as
' Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo...' [charter
#82]. See also evidence given on the A2A site, esp. the
following charter witnessed by "Ivo de Hallespad' ", and
" Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother", dated ca. 1155x1167:
' Confirmation from Robert son of earl Robert of Leicester
to God and Saint Mary of Cumba and the monks of the
Cistercian order there serving God, for the souls of his
father and mother and ancestors and for the safety of his
own body and soul and of his wife and children, of the gift
of his father Robert to the said abbey of the land of Smithe
which Richard de Camvilla held of his (Robert the younger's)
fee.
Witnesses: Richard abbot of Legr', Thurstan abbot of Gerad'
[Garendon], Robert abbot of Pipwell', Ralph Basset, William de
Hasting', William Burdet, Ernulf de Bosco, Ivo de Harwecurt,
Richard Mall' and Ancarill' Mall' his brother, Ivo de
Hallespad', Geoffrey 'dispensario' his brother and many
others. ' [A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:

Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467], DEEDS AND
PAPERS: Warwickshire: Combe alias Smite, DR10/192 ]
Geoffrey Despenser (d. ca. 1160) dispensator to the Earl of Chester
Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, charters
#25, 35-37, 50, 55-59, 64, 73, 85, 99[4]
[also, ? Gaufrido dispensario...? and ? Galfrido dispensatore..? ]
'Gaufrido dispensatore', witness together with brother Ivo de Alspath
of recognition of Eustace fitz John as constable of Chester, ca. 1144-45
[Barraclough, charter #73, cites B. L. Cott. Charter xvi, 36; collated,
where mutilated, with Bodleian Library, Dugdale MS. 17, p. 82 and
P.R.O., D.L. 42/1[4]]
"Geoffrey 'dispensario' ",witness to a charter ca. 1155-67 with his
brother Ivo de Alspath ("Ivo de Hallespad' ") - A2A, Shakespeare
Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/1 - DR10/467] , DEEDS AND PAPERS: Warwickshire: Combe alias
Smite, [ DR10/192 ][5]
Proof of his identity for Geoffey as father of Thomas le Despenser provided
by charters in the Garendon chartulary, printed in Nichol's History
of Leicester. Charters are recorded for gifts to Garendon by
" Thomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris "
[Nichols III/2:817, 14.b., and Nichols III/2:815, 12.a. (name
given as 'Tomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris') [3]]
Thomas Despenser (d. ca. 1207) 'dispensator' of the Earl of Chester
proof of his parentage provided by charters in the Garendon
chartulary, printed in Nichol's History of Leicester:
" Thomas Dispensator. (14.b.)
... Thomas Dispensator, filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris,
salutem........ x bovatas terre, cum omnibus pertinentiis
suis, in campo de Burtona, concessu Asketilli de Berges
domini mei de eadem terra,... "[Nichols III/2:817[3]]
My notes: This Asketilli de Berges named as "my lord" of Thomas le Despenser above, is not his grandfather but probably kin ( maybe an uncle) . Asketil de Berges who = Dionesia, he and his wife are named as witnesses in grant of land to Garendon Abbey, his grandfather Asketill married "Rohese". Both Asketill's are named in another charter together.
Back to John Raviloius notes:
Omnibus filius sancte matris ecclesiae Tomas Dispensator,
filius Gaufridi Dispensatoris, salutem. Sciatis me concessise &
confirmasse donationem patris mei, quam fecit monachis de
Geraldonia[m], videlicet, de tota[m] terra[m] quam reclamavit in
Stantona[m]. Et sicut ille prefatam donationem eoram monachis &
multis aliis festibus super altare posuit, sic & ego manu mea[m]
eandem donationem super altare Dei obtuli & concessi, ut monachi
eam teneant libere & quiete a me, & a cunctis heredibus meis, in
perpetuam elemosinam. Semitam quoque in campo eorum, per quam
ego & homines mei incedere solebamus, que erat ad gravamen eorum,
& ad detrimentum segetum, quietam omnino concessi.
Hii fuerunt testes; Willielmus abbas Legrecestrie, Hugo
Barre, Willielmus Burdet, Willielmus de Widevill, Gaufridus
filius Algot, Willielmus de Rudevill, Gillebertus filius Picot,
Gillebertus de Segrave, Radulphus Fridei, Ricardus filius
Nicholai, Gaufridus Ostianus, Gilbertus Forestarius, Asketillus
de Torp, Johannes Constantin, Gaufridus de Curci, Ranulphus
Leblud. " [Nichols III/2:815[3]]

'Thoma dispensatore', witness together with Elias, 'his brother'
of the gift of Ivo de Alspath, 'ca. 1160', of a virgate of land
to Monks Kirby (A2A, Meriden (Alspath) [ DR10/524 ][5],[4],[7].
See text from PRO, below.


amerced 40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire, as
noted by Farrer [9]. The record in the Pipe Roll of 22 Hen II
identifies both Thomas le Despenser and his cousin, Hugh de Berges:
" De misericordia Regis pro foresta sua. In Legercestrescr'.
Tomas dispensator redd. comp. de .xl. s. de misericordia
pro foresta. In thesauro .xx. s. Et debet .xx. s.
....
Hugo de Berc [Berch in C.R.] debet dimidiam marcam pro
eodem. Sed requirendus est in Rotel'. " [19]

' Thoma dispensatore ', witness to grant by H(ugh), Earl of Chester
(d. 1181) to Bertram, his chamberlain, of Mabel, daughter of
William Flamenc, and her inheritance of Meles, ca. 1162-1181 :
"Testibus Bertramo de Verd', Johanne, constabulario Cestr', Radulpho
Dapifero de Monte Alto, Roolant de Verd', Thoma dispensatore,
Giliberto filio pibot, Willelmo Barb'ap'l et multis aliis apud
Cestr'." - A2A, Manchester University, John Rylands Library:
Rylands Charters [RYCH/1 - RYCH/1942], RYCH/1274[5]
?Thoma dispensator? or ?dispensarius? [also ?Toma?], witness to
numerous charters of the Earls of Chester, ca. 1178-1207 (charters
#192, 194, 203, 261-2, 265, 272, 288-9, 302-3, 313, 316, 321, 334,
341, in G. Barraclough)'[4]
charter confirming grant of 10 bovates in Burton to Garendon abbey,
dated 1177x1190:
? Tomas Dispensator. (4.b.)
Sciatis me dedisse, concessione & bona voluntate uxoris
mee Recuare & heredum meorum & hac carta mea confirmasse, Deo et
ecclesie Sanct Marie de Gerondonia, et monachis....etc etc..
x bovatas terra cum omnibus pertinentiis suis in campo de Burton
concesssu Asketilli de Berges domini mei de eadem terra, liberas
et quitas ab omni terreno servicio et consuetudine mihi &
heredibus meis pertinente, salvo forensi servicio; & excepto
quod annuatim dabunt mihi & heredibus meis 2 solidus ad festum
Sancte Crucis post Pascham. Preterea dedi eisdem monachis
....etc.....pro salute anime mee & patris & matris mee, &
precipue pro anima filii mei Gaufridi 1111 solidos quos pro
predicta terra ......etc.... Ut inde habeat annuatim conventus
pitanciam in die anniversario eiusdem fillii mei, hoc est
crastino Nativitatis Sanct Marie. ........etc etc......
Hiis testibus; Roberto comite Legrecestrie, Petronilla
comitissa. ? [Nichols, ibid., Vol. III, Part 2, pp. 810-811[3],
courtesy Clive West[8]]
acquired Arnesby and Loughborough, co. Leics. on the death of his
brother Elias:
' The successor of Ellis was Thomas Despenser, who was amerced 1 mark
in 1166 for a default in Leicestershire. This Thomas was amerced
40s. in 1176 for forest trespass in Leicestershire.... he was
presumably the donor to [Garendon] abbey of 10 bovates in Burton on
the Wolds, Leics., of the fee of Asketil de Berges,...' [ Farrer,
HKF II:58, citing Pipe Roll 12 Hen II, p. 70; 22 Hen II, p. 185;
and Cal. Chart. Rolls iv. 475[9]]
_____________________________
~ the grant of land in Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon
abbey reads:
'the grant of the same Asketil of the gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten
bovates of land in his fee, in the same town' - CCR IV:475[10]
Thomas obviously held his lands (or at least these 10 bovates) in Burton
of Ansketil de Berges (elsewhere Ansketil de Prestwold), evidently
his first cousin.
' Honors and Knights' Fees ii:58 et seq. gives Ellis Despenser enfeoffed of
Loughbourough by Hugh de Beauchamp after 1158. Ellis succeeded by
Thomas, living 1166. This Thomas donated 10 bovates in Burton on the
Wolds, Leics. of the fee of ASKETIL de Berges.' (the cite by Farrer
references CCR IV:475)[11]
'Thomas Dispensator gave to Stephen de Segrave with Roese his daughter
in free marriage a rent of 2s in Burton', to them and the heirs of
their bodies' (CP IV: 259n)[6]
'Thomas Despenser', witness to charter of Ranulf, Earl of Chester to
the burgesses of Coventry, ca. 1199-1204[12](this is included in
Barraclough, Charters[4])
'Thomas Dispensarius, quartam partem. ' [held 1/4 of a knight's fee of
the Honour of Peverell, A.D. 1201-12 - Red Book of the Exchequer
I:180[13]]
grant to church of St. Nicholas, ca. 1160
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970], Warwickshire -Meriden (Alspath)
date: c. 1160
?Gift from Ivo de Aellespat to the monks of St. Nicholas of
Kirkebi [Monks Kirby] of a virgate of land in Aellespet which
belonged to Godwin and his heirs, to hold in free alms for the
soul of the said Ivo, his ancestors and successors, and for
the deeds committed by the said Ivo on the lands of St.
Nicholas during the civil war.
Witnesses: Thomas steward (dispensatore), Elias, his brother,
Richard cornmonger (frumentino), Robert, his son, Gilbert, son
of Pichot, Roger, his son, Nigel de Amundavilla, Thomas de
Bikenhulla, William Brittone, Roger reeve (preposito), William
reeve (preposito), Adam, son of Godwin.?[5]

Regards, Robert

johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2014, 5:21:08 PM6/16/14
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Dear Robert,

You have apparently not understood my first post in this thread. Hugh de Berges and his son Ansketil de Berges were not connected to the Despensers. Ansketil de Berges and Ansketil Despenser were different people, who lived at different times.

Thomas Despenser, son of Geoffrey Despencer granted and confirmed to Garendon abbey, 10 bovates in Burton with the consent of his overlord for this land, Ansketil de Berges.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis Thomas Dispensator, filius Galfridi Dispensatoris, salutem. Sciatis me dedisse, & hac carta mea confirmasse, Deo & ecclesie Sancte Marie de Geroldonia, & monachis ibidem Deo servientibus, pro salute anime mee, & patris mei, & uxoris mee, & liberorum meorum, & omnium antecessorum meorum, x bovatas terre, cum omnibus pertinentiis suis, in campo de Burtona, concessu Asketilli de Berges domini mei de eadem terra, in perpetuam elemosinam, liberas & quieias ab omni terreno servitio & consuetudine mihi & heredibus meis pertinente, reddendo nobis annuatim 11 solidos ad festum Sancte Crucis post Pascha, salvo forensi servitio. Et ego Thomas Dispensator & heredes mei hanc donationem sicut perpetuam elemosinam nostram contra omnes homines guarantizabimus, & defensores astabimus. His testibus; Gilberto de Segrave, Roberto filio Herdolfi, Roberto filio Asketilli, Gilleberto filio Picot, Ricardo filio Serlonis, Willielmo Putrel, Willielmo de Jort, Odone filio Picot, Nicholao filio Ricardi de Torp, Galfrido filio Nicholai, Luca patre suo, Ricardo Frumentino.
John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the county of Leicester, Vol. 3, Part 2, (1804), 817

Ansketil Despenser died in or before 1126 - he could hardly be same person as Ansketil de Berges, the overlord of Thomas Despenser who granted land to Garendon some time after 1160.

Regards,

John

Robert Spencer

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Jun 16, 2014, 5:51:52 PM6/16/14
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Dear John,

Please read my notes: What I stated does not disagree with yours.

Ansketil de Berges who married Dionsia was the "Overlord" of Thomas Despenser and was probably his uncle, not his grandfather.

His grandfather is still Ansketil Despenser who married Rohese.,I am agreeing that they are two different people.

I fail to see how this precludes Hugh de Berges from being the father of Ansketil Despenser.

Hugo de Berges', made a gift of 3 carucates to Garendon abbey in Burton
on the Wolds, later confirmed by son Ansketil together with his
(Ansketil's) uncles Thurstan de Queniborough and Radulf[2]. This gift
occurred in 1133 (year of the foundation of Garendon) or later. (also Nichols, Hist. Leicestershire vol. III, courtesy Clive West)

Re: Wife of Hugh de Berges : she was the sister of Thurstan de Queniborough and his brother Radulf, her father may have been the William de Queniborough who held lands of Geoffrey de la Guerche at Domesday Book, 1086

Robert


johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2014, 3:57:40 AM6/17/14
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Dear Robert,

The simple and straightforward family tree that I outlined in my post fits the contemporary evidence. Of course it may be wrong, there could have been two Geoffreys or two Thomases, where I have only shown one. On the other hand, in order to make your family tree of the Despencers fit the contemporary documents, you have had to invent some people for whom there is absolutely no evidence, such as Ansketil de Berges, grandson of Hugh de Berges. I really think that there is no connection whatsoever between the Berges family and the Despensers, other than they both donated land to Garendon abbey. They were neighbours, not family.

Regards,

John


Robert Spencer

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Jun 17, 2014, 7:01:43 AM6/17/14
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"It is naturally given to all men to esteem their own inventions best."
-- Thomas More

Please note the 2 Asketill de Berges, one who appears to the same as Asketill Despenser who married Rohesia (Rohese), the other apparently a figment of my imagination.

A record of a charter of Alicia, wife of Richard Frumentinus granting
a gift of land between Burton and Seggelhelwara etc. to Garendon
priory: Witnesses include: Asketill de Berges; Dionesia, wife of
Asketill; Rohesia, wife of Asketill de Berges; Aelicia, wife of Ivon
of Prestwold. [Nichols, Hist. Leicestershire.] The complete source I am attempting to obtain from John Ravilious via Academia.edu in due course, however he seems not to have checked his messages lately.

As to my other inventions, namely the 3 missing sons of Thomas Despenser and Recaura from your chart.

Henry is even mentioned in a confirmation of Henry le Despenser's rights in Willington from his brother Hugh. and as I tried to explain, I found that Henry Despenser later gifted the same land at Willimgton to the prior and becomes a kt. of Lord Stapleford of Willimgton. I have no idea what happened to him after that point.
Robert and William are also shown witnessing charters as they came of age.

A 2nd source for the son "William" comes from Douglas Richardson, who in 2002, posted that Thomas le Despenser (died c. 1207) had another son, William le Despenser, who died in or before 1242, leaving lands at Loughborough, Leicestershire. William's heir was his nephew, Hugh le Despenser II (died 1265). For evidence of William's existence, see Curia Regis Rolls, 17 (1991): 140, 291-292.

Sources for Henry, Robert are from:

G. Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls
of Chester, c. 1071-1237 (1988: The Record Society of
Lancashire and Cheshire). The information provided (in rough
chronological order, not charter # order) is:

Doc # # of charter (Barraclough's enumeration)

Date period of charter creation (chronology by
Barraclough, discussed in detail in the text)

Name of the 'Despenser(s)' witnessing the charter [in
specific cases, a Despenser is involved in the
transaction]

Name as
in text As given in Latin by Barraclough (verbatim)


Doc # Date Name Name as in text

25 ca 1143-53 Geoffrey le Despenser ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
35 ca 1130-40 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
36 ca. 1135 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
37 ca 1135-40 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
50 ca 1141 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
55 1141-43 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensario...'
56 1141-43 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
57 1141-44 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
58 1145-46 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'
59 1141-45 Geoffrey ' Galfridus dispensator..'
64 1147-48 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensario...'
73 1144-45 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'

82 1145-47 Geoffrey and ' Gaufrido dispensatore
his brother, Ivo et Ivone fratre suo...'

85 1147-48 Geoffrey ' Galfrido dispensatore..'
99 1150-53 Geoffrey ' Gaufrido dispensatore..'

192 ca. 1178 Thomas le Despenser ' Toma dispensatore,..'

194 ? Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
203 1186-1200 Thomas ' Thoma dispensario,...'
261 1191-1203 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
262 1191-1194 Thomas ' Thoma dispensario,...'
265 ca.
1199-1204 [2] Thomas ' Thoma Dispenser [sic],..'
272 1194-1203 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
288 1198-1202 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
289 1199-1204 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
313 1199-1204 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
302 1198-1206 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
303 1186-1207 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
321 1200-1203 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
334 1201-1204 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
341 1206 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'
316 1199-1213 Thomas ' Thoma dispensatore,..'

[Thomas 'senior' d. 1207; following are refs. to Thomas 'junior']

357 1208-1216 [4] Thomas [charter]; ' Thome dispensatoris...'
Hugh [witness] ' Hugone despensatore,..'

379 1214-1216 ______ and ' ________,
Thomas Thoma dispensariis,...'

260 1191-1194 Hugh le Despenser ' Hugone dispensario,..'
271 1194-1202 Hugh ' domino Hugone de
Spenser [sic],...'

306 1193-1200 Hugh and ' Hugone,
Thomas and Thoma,
Henry Henrico dispensariis,..'

276 1194-1208 Thomas and ' Thoma
Henry et Henrico dispensariis,.'
231 1208-1210 Thomas and ' Thoma,
Henry Henrico dispensariis,..'

337 1205 [3] Thomas, ' Thoma dispensario,....
Henry, Henrico dispensario,
Hugh and Hugone dispensario,
and Thomas * Thoma dispensario,...'

315 1211-1212 Hugh and ' Hugone et
Thomas and Thoma et
Henry Henrico dispensariis,..'

333 1190-1204 Henry le Despenser ' Henrico dispensatore,..'
207 1200- Henry ' Henrico dispensario,..'
282 1207-1213 Henry ' Henrico dispensario,..'
283 1208-1216 Henry ' Henrico dispensario,..'
338 ? Henry ' Henrico Despenser [sic],..'

258 1208-1217 Hugh and ' Hugone
Thomas et Thoma dispensariis,..'

211 1207-1211 Hugh le Despenser and ' Hugone Despensir,
his brother, Thomas Thoma fratre suo,...'

359 1215-1216 Hugh and ' Hugone dispensario,
Thomas Thoma dispensario,...'

350 1207-1217 ______ le Despenser and ' ______ dispensatore,
his brother Henry Henrico fratre eius,...'

212 1207-1211 Hugh and ' Hugone
Henry et Henrico dispensariis,.'

351 1207-1217 Hugh, ' Hugone dispensario,...
Thomas and Henry, Thoma et Henrico,
Robert, Roberto,
Geoffrey Galfrido dispensariis,..'

375 1214-1216 Thomas and ' Thoma dispensatore
his brother Robert et Roberto fratre eius,..'

214 1210-1218 [1] Hugh and ' Hugone
Thomas and et Thoma
Robert and et Roberto
_______ et ______ dispensariis,..'

381 1214-1217 Hugh and ' Hugone
Thomas and et Thoma
Henry and et Henrico
Robert and et Roberto
Geoffrey et Galfrido dispensariis,.'

394 CHARTER OF LIBERTIES,
1215 Hugh and ' Hugone dispensario,
Thomas and Thoma dispensario,...
Robert Roberto dispensario...'

402 1218-1229 Hugh and ' Hugone
Geoffrey et Galfrido dispensariis.'

354 1215-1217 Hugh ' Hugone dispensatore,...'
384 1218-1229 Hugh ' Hugone dispensatore,...'
408 1218-1223 Hugh ' Hugone expensatore [sic],.'
386 1220-1225 Hugh ' Hugone dispensario,..'
290 1220-1226 Hugh ' Hugone dispensario,..'
389 1220-1226 Hugh ' Hugone dispensario,..'
416 1224-1227 Hugh ' Hugone dispensatore,...'


[1] confirmation of Henry le Despenser's rights in Willington

[2] confirmation of gift of Thomas le Despenser to Garendon Abbey

[3] Barraclough writes re: the Despenser references in this charter
(p. 339),
' The three dispensers, Henry, Hugh and Thomas, were the
sons of the Thomas dispensarius named also in the witness
list, and it seems that the title had now become a patronymic.'

[4] Charter granting certain rights to Thomas le Despenser in his fee
of Barrow (Barraclough, pp. 355-56

Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 17, 2014, 7:14:53 AM6/17/14
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I realize that in my previous post tha the 2nd Asketill,who has a wife named Dionesia, has no name however this may help to provide his origin and last name.

Hugo de Berges', made a gift of 3 carucates to Garendon abbey in Burton on the Wolds, later confirmed by son Ansketil together with his (Ansketil's) uncles Thurstan de Queniborough and Radulf[2]. This gift occurred in 1133 (year of the foundation of Garendon) or later.

(1.1.1) Ansketil de Berges of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. married Rohese. Gift by 'Hugo de Berges et Asketillus filius eius' of 3 carucates in Burton to Garendon abbey, confirmed by his uncles Thurstan and

Radulf de Queniborough 'cum predicto nepote nostro Asketillo' [5]. Of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. [also Nichols, Hist. Leicestershire vol. III, courtesy Clive West[8. Spouse: Rohese. Children:
*Hugh de Berges (als Hugh de Prestwold)
*Geoffrey le Despenser
*Ivo de Alspath, constable of Coventry (->1178)


(1.1.1.1) Hugh de Berges (de Prestwold) of Burton on the Wolds, Co. Leics. CCR records ' the grant

of Asketill son of Hugh de Prestwold of the gift of Hugh his father, de Prestwold, of twenty acres of land

in Prestwald .....; the gift of the said Asketill of eight acres of land in the said town' - CCR IV:475[8]

(1.1.1.1.1) Ansketil de Prestwold ('de Berges') of Burton and Prestwold =Dionisia. 'Asketill son of Hugh de Prestwold', he made further grants, confirming gifts of land in Prestwold, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey by his father [cf. CCR][8] the grant of the same Asketil of the gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten bovates of land in his fee, in the same town' of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. to Garendon abbey [CCR IV:475[8

Regards, Robert

Robert Spencer

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Jun 17, 2014, 7:25:06 AM6/17/14
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Again this whole thing about the Hugh de Berges may hinge on the relationships of the Prestwald , Berges and Despenser families. If Hugh de Berges and Hugh de Prestwald are the same person as John Ravilous and others seemed to have believed back in 2002 and 2003 posts.

Thank you John for your posts and good work, it's very much appreciated by many including myself.

johnmw...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2014, 9:08:27 AM6/17/14
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Dear Robert,

Nichols History of Leicestershire is available online at the University of Leicester Special Collections website. However, it is only possible to see one page at a time and they take forever to download. For what its worth, here is the link for Vol. 3, part 2:

http://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/2904

Regards,

John

Robert Spencer

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Jul 6, 2014, 8:21:14 PM7/6/14
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Dear John, I found the following entry in Notitia monastica: or, an account of all the abbies, priories, and houses of friers, heretofore in England and Wales; and also of all the colleges and hospitals founded before A.D. MDXL. By the Right Reverend Doctor Thomas Tanner, late Lord Bishop of St. Asaph ; published by John Tanner ... .. (1744

Tghe entry can be found here: https://archive.org/details/notitiamonastica00tann

The Asketilli de Berges appears to be the same as the Asketil de Berges the Geoffrey Despenser calls his "overlord" and who many thought was the father of Geofreey Despenser.

I need help in dating this event:

Vidi in Mon. Angl. torn. i. p. 768, etc. cart.
4 Ed. 3. n. 17. confirmantem concelTiunes fundaloris
Robert com. Leiccftr. et benefactor, quamplur.
fcil. Margarerae comitiirae Lincoln. Margarerae
de Ferraiiis comitillie Derby, Will, de
Dixcl, Rogcri dc Quincy com. Winron, Ranulphi
com. Ceftriae, Asketili de Berges, Gilberti de
Colevilla, Roberti de Burgs, Will. de Harcourt,
etc. P. 772. carras Havvilliae comiriffae de Albamarlc,
er Will. com. Albamarle de iv. caiucat.
teirae in Eftwell.


I hope i have identified some of those named and by thier death date hope I am correct in that this must have happened prior to 1148 but maybe much earlier as some I can not identify.
I believe this entry contains:

Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester (1104 - 5 April 1168)
Ranulph de Gernon, 2nd Earl of Chester (1099-1153)
Asketilli de Berges
William de Harourt was born circa 1100 and died circa 1148
Gilbert de Colvilla
Robert de Brugs

Whoever this Aketil de Berges is he seems to be a fairly important guy if indeed he was named before William de Harcourt who Ravilous conjected was Ansketil Despenser's brother at one point in his research as shown below:

Ansketil
> I
> I
> Robert de Harcourt
> ______________I_ . _ . _ . _ . _
> I I
> William de Harcourt Ansketil
> I 'Aschetillus'
> I ____________I_______
> I I I
> Ivo de Harcourt Ivo de Geoffrey
> ('Harwecurt') Alspath 'despenser'
> ('Hallespad') ('dispensario')
> [1] I
> _____________I .
> I ____________I___________
> I I I
> NN Thomas 'le Elias
>(prob. daughter) Despenser ' 'le Despenser'
> I fl. 1199-1204 [1] [2]
> I [1] I____
> I _________I______________________ I
> I I I I I I
> James 'Brito Thomas I GEOFFREY I Nigel
> of Alspath d.s.p. I le Despenser I fl. ca.
> 1218 I of Martley, Worcs. I 1230
> I d. 1251 I
> ________I = Emma de I
> I HARCOURT I
> I I I
> Hugh le Despenser I Rohese
> of Loughborough & c. I =Stephen
> d. bef 31 May 1238 John de
> I d.s.p. Segrave
> I d. 1241


NN de Queniborough
of Queniborough and Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
1.
~ 'Willelmus' held lands in Stache and Queniborough, Leics.
of Geoffrey de la Guerche at Domesday Book, in 1086 [DD 652][1],[2]

~ 'He also held 5 carucates of land in Burton on the Wolds. This
may have been the land of Durand Malet who held 5 carucates of land
in Burton on the Wolds in chief from the king. To this land
coincidentally belonged one and a half carucates of land
in Prestwold.'[3]
I
_______________I_________________________________________
I I I I
NN, a daughter Thurstan de Radulf de Herbert de
= Hugh de Berges Queniborough Queniborough Queniborough
1.1. 1.2. 1.3. 1.4.
I
I
I
Ansketil de Berges
of Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics.
gift by 'Hugo de Berges et Asketillus filius eius' of 3 carucates
in Burton to Garendon abbey, confirmed by his uncles Thurstan and
Radulf de Queniborough 'cum predicto nepote nostro Asketillo'[5]
1.1.1.
____I________________________________________________________
I I I
I I I
Hugh de Berges Geoffrey le Despenser Ivo de Alspath
(de Prestwold) 'dispensator' constable of Coventry
1.1.1.1. 1.1.1.2. 1.1.1.3.
(de Prestwold) " Gaufrido dispensatore et Ivone fratre suo"
of Burton on the witnesses to charter #82 of the Earl of
Wolds, co. Leics. Chester, ca. 1135-1153. [13]
CCR records ' the grant
of Asketill son of Hugh de
Prestwold of the gift of Hugh
his father, de Prestwold, of twenty acres of land
in Prestwald .....;
the gift of the said Asketill of eight acres of
land in the said town' - CCR IV:475[8]
I
____I_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ________________________
I I I
Ansketil de Prestwold Thomas 'dispensator' Elias
of Burton on the Wolds of Burton on the Wolds of Arnesby
and Prestwold, co. Leics. gave 10 bovates in Burton and
1.1.1.1.1. to Garendon abbey [8] Loughborough
'Asketill son of Hugh de d. 1207 co. Leics.
Prestwold', he made further 1.1.1.1.2. 1.1.1.1.3.
grants, confirming gifts of I
land in Prestwold, co. Leics. I
to Garendon abbey by his father I
[cf. CCR][8] I
' the grant of the same Asketil of the I
gift of Thomas Dispensator of ten I
bovates of land in his fee, in the I
same town' of Burton on the Wolds, I
co. Leics. to Garendon abbey I__________
[CCR IV:475[8]] I
I I
___I____________ _____________________I_____________
I I I I I I
Thomas Elias de Thomas Hugh le Rohese I
heir; Prestwold dsp 1218 Despenser = Stephen I
d.v.p.[7] "Elias filius 1.1.1.1.2.1. of Burton de Segrave I
1.1.1.1.1.1. Anketilli de & c., co. (d. 1241) I
de Prestwald"[7] Leics. 1.1.1.1.2.3. I
1.1.1.1.1.2. 1.1.1.1.2.2. I
' Ellis son of Anketil (of Prestwold) I
gave land in Cotes to Stephen de I
Segrave ' [before 1242, de Segrave ___________________________I
having d. in 1241]. [6] I I I
Henry Robert Geoffrey
1.1.1.1.2.4. 1.1.1.1.2.5. 1.1.1.1.2.6


Thank you
Robert

Matt Tompkins

unread,
Jul 7, 2014, 2:57:34 AM7/7/14
to
Robert, the date of the event is clear within it - 4 Ed. 3.

This is a 1330-1 charter, presumably of Edward III, confirming to Garendon Abbey the grants made to it by its founder Robert earl of Leicester and benefactors Margaret countess of Lincoln etc. These various benefactors probably made their gifts at widely varying dates.

As so often, your OCR has garbled the 18C print and one has to go to the original for a clear reading. You omitted to mention the page number there, but for anyone who wants to have a look, it is p. 237. (Though since Tanner is merely quoting a charter mentioned in Dugdale's Monasticon, vol. i p. 768, it might be better to go directly to his source.)

Matt Tompkins
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