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The Family of Cecily Fleming
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John Watson
Jun 15, 2015, 9:00:13 AM6/15/15
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Dear all,
A few weeks ago there was an interesting discussion here regarding Cecily Fleming (d. bef. 1423), second wife of Robert Waterton of Methley (d. 1425).
I, like many others before me, had assumed that Cecily was of the family of Fleming of Wath, Yorkshire and Croston, Lancashire. However there is no real evidence of this, so I decided to search for more information on Cecily's family. I started with two pieces of information: (1) it is highly likely that Cecily was the sister of Richard Fleming, bishop of Lincoln (d. 1431) and (2) that bishop Richard Fleming was born in the village of Crofton, near Wakefield, Yorkshire [1].
So I started looking for references for Flemings in and around Crofton. The information I found makes it possible to put together a highly conjectural and rather skeletal pedigree for the family of Fleming of Crofton.
One of the major problems in my search was that the first member of the family that I identified; Cecily's grandfather John, used two different names. He appears in records both as John de Bradley and as John Fleming of Bradley. I have no idea where he originated; there are quite a few places called Bradley in England.
1. John Fleming of Bradley (ca. 1345-1412) m. Alice (?Woderove)
On 8 August 1372, John of Gaunt appointed his "good friend" John de Bradeley as master of the grammar school in Crofton, near Wakefield, Yorkshire [2]. On 2 August 1397, John de Bradlay of Crofton was one of the executors of the will of John Woderoue of Normanton [3]. In 1401-02, John de Bradlay was holding land in Crofton of the prior of St. Oswald, Nostell [4]. On 13 February 1402, the king granted for life to John Flemmyng of Bradeley and Alice his wife, two tuns of red wine of Gascony yearly from the king's wines in the port of Kingston upon Hull [5]. On 24 January 1404, the chief butler in the port of Kingston upon Hull, was sent a reminder by the king that the wine should be delivered to John Flemmynge of Bradeley and Alice his wife with arrears to the date of the original grant [6]. In 1415, the Wakefield Manor Rolls record that John Flemmyng of Crofton, alias Magister John de Bradelay, was dead and Robert Flemmyng, his son and heir, paid 12d. heriot for 3 acres [7].
1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1365-1425) married Margery.
In 1418, the Wakefield Manor Rolls record that Robert Flemmynge paid 12d. heriot on the death of his father John Flemmynge of Crofton alias Magister John de Bradelay for 1 acre and 1 rood [8]. On 4 kal May 1420, Robert Flemyng, nobleman, of the diocese of York, and Marjory (Marierie) his wife had a papal indult for a portable altar [9].
1.1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1385-1459).
The will of Robert Fleming, dated 20 April 1459 and proved on 18 July 1459. To be buried in the abbey of Saint Oswald, Nostell. Leaves the residue of his goods to Master Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln and lady Beatrice Waterton who he makes his executors [10].
1.1.2 Richard Fleming (ca. 1387-Jan 1431)
Bishop of Lincoln 1419-1431 [1].
1.1.3 Cecily Fleming (ca. 1390-1422)
Married as his second wife, before March 1408 [11], Robert Waterton of Methley, Yorkshire.
1.1.1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1416-1483)
Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln [12].
That appears to be an outline of the family. If anyone can help fit in some missing pieces of the jigsaw, I would be very grateful.
Regards,
John
References:
1. R. N. Swanson, 'Flemming , Richard (d. 1431)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004.
2. Sydney Armitage-Smith, ed., John of Gaunt's Register, vol. 1, Camden Third Series, 20 (1911) 111.
3. Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 24 (1919), 320.
4. Inqusitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, vol. 6 (1920), 604.
5. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry IV, vol. 2: 1401-1405 (1905), 41.
6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry IV: vol. 2: 1402-1405 (1929), 245.
7. A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 48.
8. A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 54.
9. Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 7: 1417-1431 (1906), 337.
10. J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Part II, Surtees Society 30, 1855, 229.
11. Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 6: 1404-1415 (1904), 145.
12. Cecil H. Clough, 'Flemming, Robert (1416-1483)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004.
A few weeks ago there was an interesting discussion here regarding Cecily Fleming (d. bef. 1423), second wife of Robert Waterton of Methley (d. 1425).
I, like many others before me, had assumed that Cecily was of the family of Fleming of Wath, Yorkshire and Croston, Lancashire. However there is no real evidence of this, so I decided to search for more information on Cecily's family. I started with two pieces of information: (1) it is highly likely that Cecily was the sister of Richard Fleming, bishop of Lincoln (d. 1431) and (2) that bishop Richard Fleming was born in the village of Crofton, near Wakefield, Yorkshire [1].
So I started looking for references for Flemings in and around Crofton. The information I found makes it possible to put together a highly conjectural and rather skeletal pedigree for the family of Fleming of Crofton.
One of the major problems in my search was that the first member of the family that I identified; Cecily's grandfather John, used two different names. He appears in records both as John de Bradley and as John Fleming of Bradley. I have no idea where he originated; there are quite a few places called Bradley in England.
1. John Fleming of Bradley (ca. 1345-1412) m. Alice (?Woderove)
On 8 August 1372, John of Gaunt appointed his "good friend" John de Bradeley as master of the grammar school in Crofton, near Wakefield, Yorkshire [2]. On 2 August 1397, John de Bradlay of Crofton was one of the executors of the will of John Woderoue of Normanton [3]. In 1401-02, John de Bradlay was holding land in Crofton of the prior of St. Oswald, Nostell [4]. On 13 February 1402, the king granted for life to John Flemmyng of Bradeley and Alice his wife, two tuns of red wine of Gascony yearly from the king's wines in the port of Kingston upon Hull [5]. On 24 January 1404, the chief butler in the port of Kingston upon Hull, was sent a reminder by the king that the wine should be delivered to John Flemmynge of Bradeley and Alice his wife with arrears to the date of the original grant [6]. In 1415, the Wakefield Manor Rolls record that John Flemmyng of Crofton, alias Magister John de Bradelay, was dead and Robert Flemmyng, his son and heir, paid 12d. heriot for 3 acres [7].
1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1365-1425) married Margery.
In 1418, the Wakefield Manor Rolls record that Robert Flemmynge paid 12d. heriot on the death of his father John Flemmynge of Crofton alias Magister John de Bradelay for 1 acre and 1 rood [8]. On 4 kal May 1420, Robert Flemyng, nobleman, of the diocese of York, and Marjory (Marierie) his wife had a papal indult for a portable altar [9].
1.1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1385-1459).
The will of Robert Fleming, dated 20 April 1459 and proved on 18 July 1459. To be buried in the abbey of Saint Oswald, Nostell. Leaves the residue of his goods to Master Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln and lady Beatrice Waterton who he makes his executors [10].
1.1.2 Richard Fleming (ca. 1387-Jan 1431)
Bishop of Lincoln 1419-1431 [1].
1.1.3 Cecily Fleming (ca. 1390-1422)
Married as his second wife, before March 1408 [11], Robert Waterton of Methley, Yorkshire.
1.1.1.1 Robert Fleming (ca. 1416-1483)
Robert Fleming, dean of Lincoln [12].
That appears to be an outline of the family. If anyone can help fit in some missing pieces of the jigsaw, I would be very grateful.
Regards,
John
References:
1. R. N. Swanson, 'Flemming , Richard (d. 1431)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004.
2. Sydney Armitage-Smith, ed., John of Gaunt's Register, vol. 1, Camden Third Series, 20 (1911) 111.
3. Miscellanea, Thoresby Society, 24 (1919), 320.
4. Inqusitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, vol. 6 (1920), 604.
5. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry IV, vol. 2: 1401-1405 (1905), 41.
6. Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry IV: vol. 2: 1402-1405 (1929), 245.
7. A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 48.
8. A. Gibbons, ed., The Northern Genealogist, vol. 6 (1903), 54.
9. Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 7: 1417-1431 (1906), 337.
10. J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Part II, Surtees Society 30, 1855, 229.
11. Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 6: 1404-1415 (1904), 145.
12. Cecil H. Clough, 'Flemming, Robert (1416-1483)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004.
Ian Goddard
Jun 15, 2015, 9:29:00 AM6/15/15
to
On 15/06/15 14:00, John Watson wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> A few weeks ago there was an interesting discussion here regarding Cecily Fleming (d. bef. 1423), second wife of Robert Waterton of Methley (d. 1425).
Symon Flemyng & Johanna uxor ejus were taxed 4d in Almondbury in 1379.
> Dear all,
>
> A few weeks ago there was an interesting discussion here regarding Cecily Fleming (d. bef. 1423), second wife of Robert Waterton of Methley (d. 1425).
Fleminghouse Lane survives as a place name in Almondbury. Bradley
nearby at the confluence of the Colne and Calder is one of the various
places of that name in the county.
--
Hotmail is my spam bin. Real address is ianng
at austonley org uk
joe...@gmail.com
Jun 15, 2015, 12:24:26 PM6/15/15
to
CP 25/1/278/145, number 24.
Link: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no278/IMG_1062.htm
County: Yorkshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St Martin, 14 Richard [II] [12 November 1390].
Parties: John Woderoue, John Bradlay of Crofton', Master Robert Woderoue and John Snytall', chaplain, querents, and Thomas Staynton' of Wollay and Elizabeth, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 2 messuages, 2 tofts, 6 acres of land and 12 shillings of rent in the vill of Ponte Fracto.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas and Elizabeth have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Woderoue, as those which the same John, John Bradlay, Master Robert and John Snytall' have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Elizabeth to John, John, Master Robert and John and the heirs of John Woderoue for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: John, John, Master Robert and John have given them 100 marks of silver.
-Joe Cook
Link: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/CP25%281%29/CP25%281%29no278/IMG_1062.htm
County: Yorkshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St Martin, 14 Richard [II] [12 November 1390].
Parties: John Woderoue, John Bradlay of Crofton', Master Robert Woderoue and John Snytall', chaplain, querents, and Thomas Staynton' of Wollay and Elizabeth, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 2 messuages, 2 tofts, 6 acres of land and 12 shillings of rent in the vill of Ponte Fracto.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas and Elizabeth have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John Woderoue, as those which the same John, John Bradlay, Master Robert and John Snytall' have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Elizabeth to John, John, Master Robert and John and the heirs of John Woderoue for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: John, John, Master Robert and John have given them 100 marks of silver.
-Joe Cook
johnmw...@gmail.com
Jun 17, 2015, 1:24:29 AM6/17/15
to
I found a further reference to a family called Fleming at Bradley. In a deed of ca. 1330, which mentions Joan (daughter of Thomas de Tothill) wife of William son of John le Flemming of Bradelay. This John and William were probably ancestors of the John Fleming of Bradley who lived at Crofton.
Charles T. Clay, ed., Yorkshire Deeds, vol. 4, 56, No. 201.
https://books.google.com/books?id=qe_dM79mFtQC&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q&f=false
The index states that this Bradley is near Huddersfield. Is that the same Bradley mentioned in your post? Being from the North Riding, my West Riding geography is somewhat limited.
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard
Jun 17, 2015, 4:34:58 AM6/17/15
to
Hipperholme and Lindley are all familiar and clearly recognisable with
minor changes in modern spelling. Linlandis might be the Lillands which
seems to be a low-lying area across the river from Brighouse.
Here's the map with Rastrick central:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=414072&y=421771&z=120&sv=rastrick&st=3&tl=Map+of+Rastrick,+West+Yorkshire+[Town]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf
Elland is to the west, Bradley to the east, Hipperholme to the north and
Fixby to the south. Lindley is south of Elland and the Lillands are on
the little promontory under the rectangle with "66" on it.
The close proximity of all the other places mentioned make that Bradley
the most likely but it's just possible, however that the now vanished
Bradley Hall could have been meant. That's a little further away here.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=406285&y=426600&z=120&sv=406285,426600&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=729&ax=406285&ay=426600&lm=0
I have PDFs of volumes 1 - 3 of the charters from archive.org. I looks
as if someone has helpfully republished vol 4 in hard copy which means
it's unlikely to ever appear as a PDF - unless someone knows different.
Ian Goddard
Jun 17, 2015, 6:23:12 AM6/17/15
to
John,
A quick check through the indexes of the 1st 3 volumes of Wakefield
Manorial Rolls (available from archive.org) shows Flemings in the manor
as early as 1274.
A quick check through the indexes of the 1st 3 volumes of Wakefield
Manorial Rolls (available from archive.org) shows Flemings in the manor
as early as 1274.
Ian Goddard
Jun 17, 2015, 7:02:40 AM6/17/15
to
On 17/06/15 11:23, Ian Goddard wrote:
> John,
>
> A quick check through the indexes of the 1st 3 volumes of Wakefield
> Manorial Rolls (available from archive.org) shows Flemings in the manor
> as early as 1274.
>
Court on 25 Aug 1307:
> John,
>
> A quick check through the indexes of the 1st 3 volumes of Wakefield
> Manorial Rolls (available from archive.org) shows Flemings in the manor
> as early as 1274.
>
Reynald le Flemang, son and heir of Sir William le Flemang, deceased,
offers himself as true and lawful heir of the said William, in the
tenements he held of the Earl in his fee, and of full age, as is proved.
He was received to fealty, which he did; and, required by his fealty
to admit the lawful services arising from the tenements he claims to
hold of the Earl, he says that he holds the manor of Clifton with its
appurtenances, by homage, fealty and suit every three weeks in the
lord's Court at Wakefeld, and by a rent of 20s He pays 40s for a relief,
and an ox to the Steward [?].
I think this will be the relevant Clifton
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=415960&y=422965&z=120&sv=415960,422965&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=729&ax=415960&ay=422965&lm=0
William appears in the earlier rolls initially as plain William & then
as Sir William.
There was also a John F with a son Robert and a sister Alice.
On 07 Jun 1307 John is a juror at Rastrick & is described as being "of
Dalton"
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=416440&y=416850&z=120&sv=416440,416850&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=729&ax=416440&ay=416850&lm=0
John Watson
Jun 17, 2015, 7:33:35 AM6/17/15
to
I think that you are confusing Early Yorkshire Charters, volumes 1 to 3 by William Farrer, with Yorkshire Deeds. The Yorkshire Deeds, volumes 1 to 10, were published by Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1909 and 1955 as part of the Record Series. Cambridge University Press has recently re-published them as paperbacks and they are available in "preview" mode on Google Books, as are volumes 4 to 10 of the Early Yorkshire Charters series, also recently reprinted by CUP.
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard
Jun 17, 2015, 7:42:13 AM6/17/15
to
On 17/06/15 12:33, John Watson wrote:
> I think that you are confusing Early Yorkshire Charters, volumes 1 to 3 by William Farrer, with Yorkshire Deeds. The Yorkshire Deeds, volumes 1 to 10, were published by Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1909 and 1955 as part of the Record Series. Cambridge University Press has recently re-published them as paperbacks and they are available in "preview" mode on Google Books, as are volumes 4 to 10 of the Early Yorkshire Charters series, also recently reprinted by CUP.
I am indeed, thanks.
> I think that you are confusing Early Yorkshire Charters, volumes 1 to 3 by William Farrer, with Yorkshire Deeds. The Yorkshire Deeds, volumes 1 to 10, were published by Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1909 and 1955 as part of the Record Series. Cambridge University Press has recently re-published them as paperbacks and they are available in "preview" mode on Google Books, as are volumes 4 to 10 of the Early Yorkshire Charters series, also recently reprinted by CUP.
Douglas Richardson
Jun 25, 2015, 6:44:30 PM6/25/15
to
Dear John ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
There evidently was a close connection between the Fleming family, of Sharlston, Yorkshire and the Fleming family, of nearby Crofton, Yorkshire. I note that Robert Flemyng, Esq., of Sharlston, Yorkshire, made Robert Flemyng, Dean of Lincoln, an executor of his will dated 1458. As indicated in your post, Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln, is likely the nephew of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton.
Sharlston is 4 miles east of Wakefield, Yorkshire, whereas Crofton is roughly four miles southeast of Wakefield, Yorkshire. In other words, Sharlston and Crofton are adjacent parishes.
See the following weblink for the location of Sharlston and Crofton:
http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=MMREDR#Y3A9NDAuNzM3ODAxfi0xMTEuODU5NTk2Jmx2bD00JnN0eT1yJnE9U2hhcmxzdG9uJTJDJTIwVW5pdGVkJTIwS2luZ2RvbQ==
For further particulars of the Fleming family of Sharlston, see Yorkshire Archaeological & Topographical Journal 8 (1884): 19, available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=__82AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA19
John Fleming, "cousin and heir" of a different "Cicily Fleminge, deceased, made a fine for a messuage and land in Sharlston, Nov. 20, 1522 (Newland Court Roll.)." [Reference: Miscellanea, Vol. 1 (Yorkshire Archaeological Soc. Record Series 61) (1920): 18].
In 1571 a crest was granted to another John Flemyng, of Sharleston, Yorkshire. The grant states that the said John Flemyng was "the sonne of John Flemynge, the sonne of John Flemynge, the sonne Will'm Flemynge and of Alice his wyfe, one of the daughters and heires of Henry Langfelde." [Reference: Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica 1 (1868): 1-2].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
There evidently was a close connection between the Fleming family, of Sharlston, Yorkshire and the Fleming family, of nearby Crofton, Yorkshire. I note that Robert Flemyng, Esq., of Sharlston, Yorkshire, made Robert Flemyng, Dean of Lincoln, an executor of his will dated 1458. As indicated in your post, Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln, is likely the nephew of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton.
Sharlston is 4 miles east of Wakefield, Yorkshire, whereas Crofton is roughly four miles southeast of Wakefield, Yorkshire. In other words, Sharlston and Crofton are adjacent parishes.
See the following weblink for the location of Sharlston and Crofton:
http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=MMREDR#Y3A9NDAuNzM3ODAxfi0xMTEuODU5NTk2Jmx2bD00JnN0eT1yJnE9U2hhcmxzdG9uJTJDJTIwVW5pdGVkJTIwS2luZ2RvbQ==
For further particulars of the Fleming family of Sharlston, see Yorkshire Archaeological & Topographical Journal 8 (1884): 19, available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=__82AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA19
John Fleming, "cousin and heir" of a different "Cicily Fleminge, deceased, made a fine for a messuage and land in Sharlston, Nov. 20, 1522 (Newland Court Roll.)." [Reference: Miscellanea, Vol. 1 (Yorkshire Archaeological Soc. Record Series 61) (1920): 18].
In 1571 a crest was granted to another John Flemyng, of Sharleston, Yorkshire. The grant states that the said John Flemyng was "the sonne of John Flemynge, the sonne of John Flemynge, the sonne Will'm Flemynge and of Alice his wyfe, one of the daughters and heires of Henry Langfelde." [Reference: Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica 1 (1868): 1-2].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Ian Goddard
Jul 3, 2015, 4:02:41 AM7/3/15
to
Today's local paper (Huddersfield Examiner) includes an article on
Kirklees Estate. In passing it mentions that the original priory on the
site was founded in 1155 by Reiner le Fleming, lord of the manor of
Wath-on-Dearne. It doesn't quote any source but if correct this pushes
the Fleming ancestry back in both the Clifton (where Kirklees is
situated) and Wath areas.
Kirklees Estate. In passing it mentions that the original priory on the
site was founded in 1155 by Reiner le Fleming, lord of the manor of
Wath-on-Dearne. It doesn't quote any source but if correct this pushes
the Fleming ancestry back in both the Clifton (where Kirklees is
situated) and Wath areas.
Jordan Vandenberg
Jan 5, 2018, 12:50:26 AM1/5/18
to
Good day,
I know that there are a number of Robert Flemings living at the time (circa 1365-1430) of Robert Fleming, father of Cecily Fleming, but I came across a reference to a Robert Fleming that was born around 1367 who was the son of a John Fleming. I thought it was worth posting in case they are in fact one and the same, because the information in the IPM where he is mentioned lists further ancestry beyond his father.
The IPM is for a John Cheynduyt and is dated from May 1427. The relevant section that mentions Robert Flemyng lists him as aged 60 and more, and gives the following ascent from him.
Robert Flemyng s.of John Flemyng s.of Richard Flemyng s.of Margery Hokisham (Hokyssahm)
The relevant passage is quoted below.
"Margery Hokisham was formerly seised in her demesne as of fee of 4 messuages and 3 a. land in Trewollack and Cant. By her charter shown to the jurors, she gave these to Bartholomew Berkley and the heirs of his body. Bartholomew was seised for the whole of his lifetime according to the form of the gift and from him the right to the messuages and land descended successively to the following, who all died seised according to the form of the gift: Benedict as his son and heir; Joan mother of John Cheynduyt as daughter and heir of Benedict; and John Cheynduyt as her son and heir, who died without heir of his body. The messuages and land are held of Robert Flemyng by service of paying him 6s. yearly, each messuage worth 6s. 8d. yearly and each acre 12d. yearly. John Cheynduyt also held a messuage in Bodwin of Benedict Geffer [d], worth 6s. 8d. yearly, service unknown. All the messuages and land should revert after his death to the same Robert Flemyng , who survives, as kinsman and heir of Margery Hokisham , as son of John son of Richard son of Margery, according to the form of the gift. Robert is aged 60 years and more."
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/22-805/
Additionally, in Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, Volume 11 and excerpt states that Margery Hokisham was the wife of Richard le Flemeng and the daughter of Robert de Hokyssahm (Hokisham)
https://books.google.ca/books?id=VOA4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA297&lpg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Again, I am not sure if this is the one and the same Robert Fleming that was father of Cecily Fleming whom John Watson was researching, but perhaps someone with more knowledge on the Flemings in England at the time can shed some more light on it.
Take care,
Jordan Vandenberg.
I know that there are a number of Robert Flemings living at the time (circa 1365-1430) of Robert Fleming, father of Cecily Fleming, but I came across a reference to a Robert Fleming that was born around 1367 who was the son of a John Fleming. I thought it was worth posting in case they are in fact one and the same, because the information in the IPM where he is mentioned lists further ancestry beyond his father.
The IPM is for a John Cheynduyt and is dated from May 1427. The relevant section that mentions Robert Flemyng lists him as aged 60 and more, and gives the following ascent from him.
Robert Flemyng s.of John Flemyng s.of Richard Flemyng s.of Margery Hokisham (Hokyssahm)
The relevant passage is quoted below.
"Margery Hokisham was formerly seised in her demesne as of fee of 4 messuages and 3 a. land in Trewollack and Cant. By her charter shown to the jurors, she gave these to Bartholomew Berkley and the heirs of his body. Bartholomew was seised for the whole of his lifetime according to the form of the gift and from him the right to the messuages and land descended successively to the following, who all died seised according to the form of the gift: Benedict as his son and heir; Joan mother of John Cheynduyt as daughter and heir of Benedict; and John Cheynduyt as her son and heir, who died without heir of his body. The messuages and land are held of Robert Flemyng by service of paying him 6s. yearly, each messuage worth 6s. 8d. yearly and each acre 12d. yearly. John Cheynduyt also held a messuage in Bodwin of Benedict Geffer [d], worth 6s. 8d. yearly, service unknown. All the messuages and land should revert after his death to the same Robert Flemyng , who survives, as kinsman and heir of Margery Hokisham , as son of John son of Richard son of Margery, according to the form of the gift. Robert is aged 60 years and more."
http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/22-805/
Additionally, in Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, Volume 11 and excerpt states that Margery Hokisham was the wife of Richard le Flemeng and the daughter of Robert de Hokyssahm (Hokisham)
https://books.google.ca/books?id=VOA4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA297&lpg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Again, I am not sure if this is the one and the same Robert Fleming that was father of Cecily Fleming whom John Watson was researching, but perhaps someone with more knowledge on the Flemings in England at the time can shed some more light on it.
Take care,
Jordan Vandenberg.
John Watson
Jan 5, 2018, 1:58:51 AM1/5/18
to
Thanks for the information. There were lots of different and unconnected Fleming families throughout England and Scotland at that time. I can't see any connection between these Flemings of Cornwall and those of West Yorkshire.
Regards,
John
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