CP Correction? - Joan (de Stafford), Lady Cherleton
Brad Verity
the Cherleton article) to have married John Cherleton, 3rd Lord
Cherleton of Powis. No date or source for this marriage is provided,
though the birthdate of their elder son is given (without a source) as
25 Apr. 1362. Lord Cherleton died 13 July 1374, when his son, aged
12, would have become a ward of the crown.
CP goes on to say that Joan, the widowed Lady Cherleton, next married,
before 16 Nov. 1379, Gilbert Talbot, 3rd Lord Talbot. He was a
widower, and in the Talbot article, CP provides a source for this
marriage that it didn't in the Cherleton article:
"When Joan was granted a pardon, for a fine of 100 marks, for her
trespass in marrying him without lic. (Cal. Patent Rolls, 1377-81, p.
403)."
CP says Joan died "before 1397", but provides no source.
Yet, an entry in the Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem casts some
doubt as to whether Joan, Lady Cherleton, did marry Lord Talbot:
"353. JOAN LATE THE WIFE OF JOHN DE CHERLETON, lord of Powys, knight.
(Writ missing.)
GLOUCESTER AND THE MARCH OF WALES ADJACENT. Inq. taken at Glocestre,
Wednesday after the Close of Easter, 51 Edward III.
She held no lands &c. in the said county and march in dower or for
life.
HEREFORD AND THE MARCH OF WALES ADJACENT. Inq. taken at Hereford,
Thursday before Palm Sunday, 51 Edward III.
Similar verdict.
E.Inq.P.M.File 42.(4.)"
Joan could have married Gilbert Talbot without license between fall
1374 and her death. As Easter of 51 Edward III would be spring 1377,
that gives her over two years, but then the Patent Roll entry of
November 1379 (which I haven't yet checked) makes no sense. Gilbert
Talbot died in 1387 (leaving a son Richard who was of age to fully
inherit), and CP refers to IPMs conducted after his death, but makes
no mention of dower being assigned to his widow Joan.
Is it possible Gilbert Talbot married another Joan? Is it possible
that the 1377 IPMs were not for Margaret de Clare's granddaughter
Joan, widow of John de Cherleton, lord of Powys?
The 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis, father of Joan's husband John, was
also named John, and did not die until 1360. Though CP only mentions
one wife for him - Maud, daughter of Queen Isabella's lover Roger de
Mortimer - perhaps he married a second wife named Joan, who survived
him and died in the spring of 1377?
If the UCLA Library has them, I'll double-check the 1379 Patent Roll
entry and the 1387 IPMs for Gilbert Talbot, and (if they exist - CP
makes no reference to them) the 1360 IPMs for John de Cherleton, 2nd
lord of Powis, and the 1374 IPMs of his son John, 3rd lord of Powis.
But if anyone knows anything further or cares to speculate about this,
please share.
Cheers, ---------Brad
Brad Verity
Margaret de Clare, it turns out, died in 1397, not "before 1397" as CP
states.
From an order to the escheator of Salop in the Calendar of Fine Rolls:
"2 Aug. 1397, Westminster. Joan late the wife of John de Charleton,
'chivaler,' who held certain lands of the king in chief in dower or
otherwise for life of the inheritance of John son and heir of the said
John; Salop and the adjacent march of Wales."
Then, in her IPM for Salop and the March of Wales, "taken at
Shrewsbury, Monday before the Assumption, 21 Richard II [1397]", it is
stated: "She died on Friday after St. James last. John, aged 30 years
and more, is son and heir of the said John and Joan."
The dower properties of Joan's 1397 IPM match up to the properties
listed in her late husband's 1374 IPM.
So, what of the spring 1377 IPMs of my previous post? Were they for a
different Joan, widow of John de Cherleton, lord of Powis? Probably
not. Since neither of them provides a date of death, they probably
were not IPMs, but another type of inquisition, commissioned for the
following:
From Calendar of Fine Rolls: "7 Feb. 1377, Westminster. Order to
William Walshale, escheator in the county of Salop and the march of
Wales adjacent,--if it be true, as the king is informed, that Joan
late the wife of John de Cherleton of Powys, who held in chief, has
married herself to Gilbert Talbot, knight, without the king's licence,
after taking her bodily oath that she would not marry without such
licence,--to take into the king's hand without delay all the lands
which Gilbert and Joan hold as Joan's dower of the inheritance of the
said John, so that he answer at the Exchequer for all the issues
thereof until the king be satisfied of the forfeiture which pertains
to him, or until further order."
What is strange is I can (so far) find no record of Joan having held
any dower in the lands of her second husband Gilbert Talbot after his
1387 death. There seems to be no record of her receiving dower, or a
separate 1397 IPM for her as Gilbert's widow.
We can also add some information to Joan's elder son John de
Cherleton, 4th lord of Powis, that CP doesn't have.
After his father's death on 13 July 1374, the custody of the lands
were granted on 20 July to Richard, son of the Earl of Arundel (and in
1376, Earl of Arundel himself). They were re-granted the following
year.
From Calendar of Fine Rolls: "18 May 1375, Westminster. Commitment to
Richard de Arundell, knight, son of the earl of Arundel, by mainprise
of John de Arundell and Edward Seint Johan, of the wardship of all the
lands late of John de Cherleton of Powys, knight, who held in chief,
to hold from the death of the said John until the lawful age of John,
his son and heir, rendering 371l.19s.10.25d. yearly by equal portions
at Michaelmas and Easter Exchequers, and also paying to Roger de
Cherleton, 'chivaler,' 28l.1.75d. yearly for the offices of forester
and 'pentoill,' keeping up the castle and manors late of the said John
which are in the king's hand, without waste or destruction, finding
all necessaries for the heir, and supporting all charges incumbent on
the said castle and manors. By K. and by bill of the treasurer."
Richard, earl of Arundel, arranged for his daughter Alice to be
married to young John de Cherleton, but exactly when I haven't been
able to determine. John's Proof of Age provides some further info.
"I [the escheator of Salop] caused the said earl [of Arundel] to be
warned by William Doun, Richard Scot, Henry Broun and Richard Saltere
to be present at Shrewsbury on Thursday after the Translation of St.
Thomas the Martyr, 6 Richard II [1382], and to be present at Le Pole
in the march of Wales on Wednesday after the same feast; and he
signified by William Herdewyk, his attorney, by letters directed to me
and remaining in my possession, that the said heir [John de Cherleton]
was 21 years of age on Monday after St. Mark last, and that he (the
earl) had nothing to say against the lands of his inheritance being
delivered to him."
The Proof of Age provides the date and location of John's birth: "the
said John son of John was born at Le Pole and baptized in the church
there on Sunday the feast of St. Mark, 35 Edward III, and was 21 years
of age and more on Monday after the same feast, 5 Richard II."
As John de Cherleton's 1401 IPM makes no mention of a widow or dower,
I assume Alice his wife predeceased him. The chronology casts some
doubt as to Alice being the mother of Cardinal Henry Beaufort's
illegitimate daughter.
Cheers, --------Brad
Brad Verity
> The Proof of Age provides the date and location of John's birth: "the
> said John son of John was born at Le Pole and baptized in the church
> there on Sunday the feast of St. Mark, 35 Edward III,
Le Pole was the medieval name of Powis Castle, which still exists in
fine form today.
Cheers, --------Brad
Tim Powys-Lybbe
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
And methinks also that Powys was the medieval name for said pad.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Chris Phillips
> So, what of the spring 1377 IPMs of my previous post? Were they for a
> different Joan, widow of John de Cherleton, lord of Powis? Probably
> not. Since neither of them provides a date of death, they probably
> were not IPMs, but another type of inquisition, commissioned for the
> following:
>
> From Calendar of Fine Rolls: "7 Feb. 1377, Westminster. Order to
> William Walshale, escheator in the county of Salop and the march of
> Wales adjacent,--if it be true, as the king is informed, that Joan
> late the wife of John de Cherleton of Powys, who held in chief, has
> married herself to Gilbert Talbot, knight, without the king's licence,
> after taking her bodily oath that she would not marry without such
> licence,--to take into the king's hand without delay all the lands
> which Gilbert and Joan hold as Joan's dower of the inheritance of the
> said John, so that he answer at the Exchequer for all the issues
> thereof until the king be satisfied of the forfeiture which pertains
> to him, or until further order."
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realise that inquisitions other than
"post mortem" ones (other than proofs of age) were included in the modern
calendars. I wonder if the confusing 1377 inquisition was
misfiled/misinterpreted at some point?
> The Proof of Age provides the date and location of John's birth: "the
> said John son of John was born at Le Pole and baptized in the church
> there on Sunday the feast of St. Mark, 35 Edward III, and was 21 years
> of age and more on Monday after the same feast, 5 Richard II."
"Le Pole" is the place now called Welshpool, (formerly) in Montgomeryshire
(see CP vol. 3, p. 160).
Chris Phillips
Brad Verity
> "Le Pole" is the place now called Welshpool, (formerly) in Montgomeryshire
> (see CP vol. 3, p. 160).
Thanks Chris (and Tim) for the correction. I was going by the
following:
"The site was known to have had a castle or fortress building since at
least 1196. During medieval times Powis was known as Pool, Poole, or
Pole Castle. Locally it was also known by the names Red Castle or
Castell Coch. The reference made in the name Red Castle was on account
of the red stone from which the Castle is built."
I found it on a website.
http://www.dicamillocompanion.com/Houses_hgpm.asp?ID=1634
Cheers, --------Brad