Stafford of Grafton problems
Clagett, Brice
was born in 1400, I believe, and was killed in 1450.
Their son Humphrey Stafford (not, so far as I know,
a knight), who married Catherine Frey, was born about
1426, I believe.
If these dates are right, it seems much more likely
that Sir Marmaduke Constable, born about 1455, was
a son-in-law of the younger Humphrey than of his
father.
Clagett, Brice
Eleanor Aylesbury had a daughter Joyce certainly suggests that she
could have been the wife of Sir Marmaduke Constable. But I think a
case can still be made that Lady Constable was daughter of the younger
Humphrey Stafford.
The notion that Sir Marmaduke was born in or about 1443 comes from
his memorial inscription at Flamborough, which claims that he was
70 years old when he commanded the left wing at Flodden. Such a claim
is, I would say, fairly shaky evidence. (I can't
resist mentioning that this tomb has on top of it a curious blob of
stone which is alleged to represent Sir Marmaduke's heart and a toad,
though when I saw it I was unable to discern such shapes. The story is
that his death occurred when he accidentally swallowed a toad, which
proceeded to eat his heart.)
His father's ipm, CIPM 2S 1:153, says that Marmaduke was then "aged 31
years and more." It is true that, when an age so given in an ipm is a
round number (30 and more, 40 and more), it sometimes means quite a
few years more; but "31" has an aura of precision to it, and I would
therefore be inclined to believe that Marmaduke was born in 1457/8 or,
at most, a year or two earlier. The ipm of Marmaduke's mother, CIPM
2S 1:526, in 1496 says that he was then "aged 40 and more."
If Sir Marmaduke was born in the late 1450s, his wife Joyce must have
been considerably older than he even if she was born in the last year
of her father's life (11450) or posthumously, and this doesn't fit well
with parents who began their family in the 1420s. All things considered,
the chronology seems to me to suggest pretty strongly that Joyce's
father was the younger Humphrey.
Clagett, Brice
having to compose a correction or clarification as soon as
I've printed it out. (Seeing it on a screen somehow doesn't
do it for me.) In my post of earlier today I managed to
omit the crucial fact that the ipm of Sir Robert Constable,
father of Sir Marmaduke, was made in 1488. I should have said
that if he was 31 in that year he was, of course, born in
1456/7. Also, Sir Humphrey Stafford died in 1450, of course,
not in "11450."
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> I never seem to be able to post a message these days without
> having to compose a correction or clarification as soon as
> I've printed it out. (Seeing it on a screen somehow doesn't
> do it for me.)
You are not alone in precisely this.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson
I show that Joyce Stafford's husband, Marmaduke Constable, was Sheriff
of Yorkshire in 1481, 1489, and 1509. In general, men were about 40
when they first served as sheriff in this time period. If so, we can
roughly "guesstimate" that Marmaduke Constable was born about 1441.
If we gave Marmaduke a five year margin (40 years plus or minus 5
years), it would place his birth no later than 1441/1446.
In contrast, I find by a former post by Adrian in the newsgroup
archives that Katherine Fray, wife of Joyce Stafford's brother,
Humphrey Stafford, was born about 1447 (she being aged 14 at her
father's death in 1461). I have copied the pertinent part of Adrian's
former post below.
Given that Katherine Fray was younger than the approximated birthdate
of Joyce Stafford's husband, Marmaduke Constable, I find it impossible
to accept the statement that the chronology suggests "pretty strongly"
that Katherine Fray was Marmaduke Constable's mother-in-law. As best
I can determine, Marmaduke Constable and Katherine Fray were members
of the same generation. I trust you concur.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - -
From: "Affray" <aff...@ukonline.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
References: <owHoa.34798$4P1.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sir George COTTON
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:51:57 +0100
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Jon (et al),
<SNIP>
When Sir Thomas Baldington died in August 1436 Agnes Baldington was 8
years
old, Alice Baldington 1 year old and Isabella Baldington 1 month old.
Dame
Agnes then married Sir John Fray, circa 1437, just after he had become
chief
Baron of the Exchequer, and she had another four daughters by him,
Elizabeth, Margaret, another Agnes, and Katherine. When Sir John Fray
died
in July 1461, his daughter's ages were given as 21 years, 19 years, 18
years, and 14 years, respectively. The third husband of Dame Agnes was
John
(Lord) Wenlock, who had previously been married to Elizabeth (née
Drayton),
the widow of Christopher Preston . It is pertinent to note that Dame
Agnes
must have firstly become pregnant in 1427/8, and therefore she was
probably
in her mid sixties by 1471, and I have evidence suggesting that John
(Lord)
Wenlock was about 70 years old!
Adrian
bcla...@cov.com ("Clagett, Brice") wrote in message news:<B1F75BF666FCFD4F9B3...@cbiexm01dc.cov.com>...
Renia
> Dear Brice ~
>
> I show that Joyce Stafford's husband, Marmaduke Constable, was Sheriff
> of Yorkshire in 1481, 1489, and 1509. In general, men were about 40
> when they first served as sheriff in this time period. If so, we can
> roughly "guesstimate" that Marmaduke Constable was born about 1441.
> If we gave Marmaduke a five year margin (40 years plus or minus 5
> years), it would place his birth no later than 1441/1446.
According to the Dictionary of National Biography, Sir Marmaduke
Constable was born about 1755 and died in 1513. His memorial gives his
age at death as 70, making him born about 1443. But the IPMs of his
parents in 1488 (his father) and 1496 (his mother) gives his age then as
over 31 and over 40, respectively, making his birth more probably a
decade or so later. In 1482 he was Steward of the Honour of Tutbury in
Staffordshire, and he was Sheriff of Staffordshire in 1486/7 and Sheriff
of Yorkshire in 1487/8. He was again Sheriff of Yorkshire in 1509/10.
The DNB does not mention him being Sheriff of Yorkshire in 1481.
Burke's Commoners has this to say:
Sir Marmaduke Constable, knt. of Flamburgh, in Yorkshire, married twice:
by his second wife, Margery, daughter of Henry, Lord Fitzhugh, he had no
issue; but by the first, Joyce, daughter of Sir Humphrey Stafford, knt.
he had (with two daughters) four sons.
Renia
Renia
> Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
>> Dear Brice ~
>>
>> I show that Joyce Stafford's husband, Marmaduke Constable, was Sheriff
>> of Yorkshire in 1481, 1489, and 1509. In general, men were about 40
>> when they first served as sheriff in this time period. If so, we can
>> roughly "guesstimate" that Marmaduke Constable was born about 1441. If
>> we gave Marmaduke a five year margin (40 years plus or minus 5
>> years), it would place his birth no later than 1441/1446.
>
>
> According to the Dictionary of National Biography, Sir Marmaduke
> Constable was born about 1755 and died in 1513.
Oops. I mean born about 1455.
Douglas Richardson
You can find Marmaduke Constable listed as Sheriff of Yorkshire in
1481, 1489, 1494, and 1509 on the following website:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/yrksdict/sheriffs.txt
This list of Yorkshire sheriffs is taken from Thomas Langdale's
Topographical Dictionary of Yorkshire published in 1822.
If this information is accurate, it would be a correction for the
Dictionary of National Biography information you have posted.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message news:<bur4hb$it9$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
Jay
additions, caveats and corrections welcome. I believe his parents
were 4th cousins once removed.
maternal line
2. Margaret Stafford
4.&5. Ralph de Stafford and Katherine de Hastang (dau of John Baron
Hastang of Chesby)
8. & 9. Edmund de Stafford and Margaret Basset (dau of Ralph Basset of
Drayton d. 1299)
16. & 17. Nicholas de Stafford and ? de Langley (dau of Geoffrey de
Langley)
32. & 33. Robert de Stafford and Alice Corbet (dau of Thomas Corbet of
Caus Castle d. 1274)
64. & 65.Hervey de Stafford and Pernell de Ferrers (dau of William de
Ferrers 3rd Earl of Derby)
128. & 129. Hervey Bagot and Milicent de Stafford
paternal line
2. John de Stafford of Bramshall and Almcote
4. & 5. Sir William de Stafford of Bramshall & Almcote and Isabella
8. and 9. Sir William de Stafford of Sandon and Ermentrude Fitz
Wakelyn
16. and 17.Sir William de Stafford of Bramshall and Adetha Vernon
32. & 33. (same as 65. and 65 above)
Jim Weber
Kay Allen, in a post to SGM, 26 Feb 1999, citing Coll. Hist. Staffs.,
has Ermentrude, da. & coh. of William FitzWalkelin as first wife (m.
bef. 1252) of Sir William Stafford (1225-58) (#16 in your line). They
were parents of of Gundred who married Robert de Stafford & were
parents of Isabel. Sir William Stafford's 2nd wife was Auda, widow of
Hugh Beauchamp, eldest daughter of Vernon of Sandon, by whom he sired
William the son (b. c1255); and William the son (#8 in your line) m.
bef. 1272, Cecily, da. & h. of Robert Waure of Amblecot.
In a post to SGM, on 5 Mar 2003, Rosie Bevan stated that Ermentrude,
daughter of Robert f. Walchelin (d. 1232) m. William de Stafford fl.
1286. So Rosie's post may be indicating that the younger William, as
you have it, was husband of Ermentrude (either that or the elder
William's death date was aft. 1268 instead of 1258).
Anyway, it appears that many close-cousin marriages took place at this
time in the Stafford family, and I never saw anything about
dispensations, etc.
Then again, maybe I have missed some of the posts on this subject,
which might shed further light on the matter.
Jim Weber
heli...@yahoo.com (Jay) wrote in message news:<d51b1746.04012...@posting.google.com>...
> Ralph Stafford of Grafton's ancestry for review: suggestions,
> additions, caveats and corrections welcome. I believe his parents
> were 4th cousins once removed.
>
<snip>
Jay
> Jay,
>
> Kay Allen, in a post to SGM, 26 Feb 1999, citing Coll. Hist. Staffs.,
> has Ermentrude, da. & coh. of William FitzWalkelin as first wife (m.
> bef. 1252) of Sir William Stafford (1225-58) (#16 in your line). They
> were parents of of Gundred who married Robert de Stafford & were
> parents of Isabel. Sir William Stafford's 2nd wife was Auda, widow of
> Hugh Beauchamp, eldest daughter of Vernon of Sandon, by whom he sired
> William the son (b. c1255); and William the son (#8 in your line) m.
> bef. 1272, Cecily, da. & h. of Robert Waure of Amblecot.
>
> In a post to SGM, on 5 Mar 2003, Rosie Bevan stated that Ermentrude,
> daughter of Robert f. Walchelin (d. 1232) m. William de Stafford fl.
> 1286. So Rosie's post may be indicating that the younger William, as
> you have it, was husband of Ermentrude (either that or the elder
> William's death date was aft. 1268 instead of 1258).
>
> Anyway, it appears that many close-cousin marriages took place at this
> time in the Stafford family, and I never saw anything about
> dispensations, etc.
>
> Then again, maybe I have missed some of the posts on this subject,
> which might shed further light on the matter.
>
> Jim Weber
I think perhaps the combined solution of William b. 1225 but d. aft
1286 seems to make the most sense. Making Margaret and John straight
4th cousins. Do you know the origins of the Robert de Stafford that
married Gundred de Stafford?
Jim Weber
Yeah, Doug Gentile, in a post to SGM on 20 Oct 1999, states that
Robert Stafford (c1253-bef. 1303) who m. Gundreda Stafford, was son of
Robert Stafford (b. c1220, d. bef. 4 Jun 1261) by Alice Corbet, being
younger brother of Nicholas Stafford (d. 1 Aug 1287) who was father of
Edmund 1st Lord Stafford (b. 15 Jul 1273, d. bef 12 Aug 1308).
BTW I found another post by Ronny Bodine, 23 Aug 2001, which supports
Kay Allen's post (ie. The elder William m. (1) Ermentrude
FitzWalkelin; (2) Auda, elder sister & coheiress of Warin de Vernon of
Sandon.
Rosie Bevan, in the 5 Mar 2003 posting, traces the FitzWalchelin line
back to a Walchelin/Walkelin of Radbourne, Derbys (1086-aft. 1125).
Rosie states that there is some evidence that he was connected to the
Ferrers, Earls of Derby. FWIW Burke's Commoners, p. 127, states that
Walkelin of Radbourne is son of Henry de Ferrers who was father of
Robert de Ferrers, 1st Earl of Derby.
Jim Weber
heli...@yahoo.com (Jay) wrote in message news:<d51b1746.04012...@posting.google.com>...
rosie bevan
The pedigree I quoted from the Derbyshire Archaeological Journal may be
wrong that William de Stafford, husband of Ermentrude was alive in 1286. The
indications are that she was married to the elder one, as posted by Kay, for
in 1245/6, Sir John Chandos and Margaret his wife, on the one part, and Sir
William Stafford and Ermentrude his wife, on the other part, entered into an
agreement by fine concerning the right of
patronage to the churches of Radborne and Egginton. If the elder William was
born around 1225, he could not have produced a son of age to make such an
agreement in 1245.
Cheers
Rosie
Ronny Bodine
I would otherwise not have become aware of it for some time. And
thank you Doug for pulling up my posting of 2001 on this subject. I
was missing it from my own files and had completely forgotten I had
made this posting, a matter now rectified.
Having brought myself up to date, at this point I still support the
belief that Joyce, wife of Sir Marmaduke Constable, was the daughter
of Sir Humphrey Stafford of Grafton (1400-1450) and not of his
like-named son. Whereas in 1478, Eleanor, widow of the elder Sir
Humphrey, specifically names a daughter Joyeux (=Joyce), there appears
to be no record, as of yet, of a Joyce as daughter of the younger
Humphrey Stafford, Esq. The marriage of her parents, probably in
1423-4 and her birth 20 or so years later places the events in
acceptable parameters without a stretch of the imagination.
Ronny Bodine
Peter Sutton
I have set out below some notes on Sir William de Stafford of Sandon and
Bramshall and of Amblecot (c. 1255-1339) which I have extracted from
Historical Collection for Staffordshire Volume: 1917 - Staffordshire
Parliamentary History Vol: 1, 1213-1603 (Wedgewood)
This source shows his parents as being Sir William de Stafford (c. 1225-58)
by his second wife Auda (d. 1276/9) widow of Hugh Beauchamp of Bedford and
eldest sister and coheiress of Warin de Vernon of Sandon (c.1220-51).
Volume 1933 of the Historical Collection for Staffordshire - The Mainwarings
of Whitmore & Biddulph in the County of Stafford compiled by J. G.
Cavanagh-Mainwaring shows that William de Stafford (1225-1258) had Gundreda
by his first wife Ermentrude dau. and coheir of Robert FitzWalkelin and
calls her dau. and heir although she could not have been her father's heir,
because there was male issue, but she could have been her mothers heir.
Cavanagh-Mainwaring shows that Sir William the elder married secondly Alda,
shows issue but does not say what it is. I therefore presume that Sir
William de Stafford the elder's children were, in order of birth:
1. Gundreda (Ermentrude Mother)
2. Sir William de Stafford (Alda or Auda Mother)
3. Sir Robert de Stafford (Alda or Auda Mother)
The entry in Staffordshire Parliamentary History reads:
"Sir William de Stafford of Sandon and Bramshall and of Amblecot (jure
uxoris) MP Staffs: 1290, 1298, 1306, 1307-8, 1311-12, 1313 (3), 1318 (and
possibly 1294, 1296, 1297, 1314 (1), 1314 (2)).
Born c. 1255 Son and heir of Sir William de Stafford of Bramshall (d.
1252/8)
[The father Sir William de Stafford (c. 1225-58) had married first
Ermentrude, daughter & coheiress of William FitzWalkelyn before 1252: and
was the son and heir of Sir William de Stafford (c. 1195-1245) who was
himself the second son of the whole blood of Hervey Bagot of Bramshall and
Melicent de Stafford the heiress of the Stafford Barony. So that our Sir
William the first MP for Staffordshire was second cousin to the contemporary
Lord of Stafford, and his grandsons Sir James and Sir John were fourth
cousins of the great Earl of Stafford whose sister and daughter they
respectively married]
by his second wife, Auda (d. 1276/9) widow of Hugh Beauchamp of Bedford
eldest sister and coheiress of Warin de Vernon of Sandon (c. 1220-51)
[Warin de Vernon, through whom Sandon came to this Stafford family, had
three sisters and coheiresses Auda or Ada, who married 1st Hugh Beauchamp,
2nd William de Stafford, 3rd William Trumwyn. Margaret married to Sir
Richard Wilbraham, whose representative in 1273 and 1296 was Richard le
Botiler. And Rose who married before 1269, John son of John de Littlebury,
who was dead and succeeded by his son William in 1273. The Littlebury
interest in Sandon had vanished by 1284 but the Botiler interest in Sandon
continued for some time. The above Warin de Vernon was son of another Warin
de Vernon (c. 1195-1240) by Margaret daughter and coheiress of Ralph
d'Audeville and grandson and heir of that Warin de Vernon (c. 1170-1249) who
married Auda a Coheiress of the Wich Malbanc Barony in 1190. The Wich
Malbanc Barony included both Sandon and Alstonfield and William de Malbanc,
the last Baron (d. 1190) got Sandon. I believe in marriage with Auda
Beauchamp; for Eyton has observed that Stephen de Beauchamp, probably the
Sheriff in 1166-7 held Sandon. The Erdeswicks, as heirs of the Staffords
held Sandon till the reign of Charles I]
which Auda remarried 1259 as her third husband, Sir William Trumwyn of
Cannock who died in 1296. Sir William de Stafford married, before 1272
Cecily daughter and heiress of Robert de Wauve of Amblecot. He was
presented, wrongly, as of age and not yet a knight in 1272. Knighted
1275/80; one of the executors of Nicholas, Lord Audley 1299, Chief
Commissioner of Array for Staffordshire in 1299 and 1308. With Robert de
Pype and William Wrottesley he was made a justice in 1300 to secure the
observance of the Great Charter in Staffordshire. Indeed he was a
Commissioner of Oyer and of Gaol Delivery and Collector of Subsidy in almost
every year from 1300 to 1319. He is the first of the first three men to be
made "Custodes Pacis", JP's in 1307, and reappears on the Commission down to
the year 1320. His close association with the Stafford Earls is witnessed
by his testimony that he lifted the future Earl Ralph from "the sacred font"
at his christening in 1301.
In the troubles of the next reign he followed Lancaster, was taken prisoner
at Boroughbridge, 1322 and imprisoned in Alton Castle, whence his grandsons,
James and John tried to release him "vi et armis".
He was pardoned 19 March 1323. The Stafford-Swynnerton and
Stafford-Ipstones feuds 1320-6 were principally carried on by his grandsons
under his directions and he was only not thrown into the Marshalsea in 1328
because the Sheriff reported that he was "so old and infirm that he could
not produce him". His son William de Stafford junior had married Isabel,
daughter and coheiress of Sir Robert de Stafford by Gundred the heiress of
Anslow, and had died leaving five sons: James (MP for Staffordshire 1328),
John (MP for Stafforshire 1339 & 1340), Edmund, William and Walter.
Sir William the father was still alive in 1337 when he enfeoffed John de
Stafford the second brother in Bramshall and even in 1339 when as William de
Stafford "the Elder" he was sued.
He is a suitable MP to begin the list for his Stafford descendants of
Sandon; of Seile, Derbyshire; of Grafton Worc.; of Southwick, Northants; of
Hook, Dorset; of Huncote; of Frome Somerset etc. supplied more MPs to
Westminster than any other family name whatever yet for 250 years they have
been utterly extinct.
He bore arms: Silver, a Chevron gules charged with five besants, or"
Regards
Peter
Jay
several problems I had on my Stafford lines, thanks!!!
Clagett, Brice
wife of Sir Marmaduke Constable, was indeed the daughter of
Sir Humphrey Stafford (d. 1450) and Eleanor Aylesbury. The
decisive fact seems to be that Katherine Fray was only 14
years old in 1461. She could not have been the grandmother
of Sir Marmaduke Constable's children Robert and Eleanor,
who were born in the 1470s.
This means that Katherine Fray married, as his first wife,
a man about 20 years older than she -- unusual, but such
things do happen.