Brian Boru's supposed daughter "Blanaid" of Ossory
Michael O'Hearn
Does anyone have any concrete information on Boru's
daughters? Ossory, being in
modern Laois/Tipperary, wouldn't have been a huge
distance away from Cashel
where the Kings of Munster's royal seat was located.
Kincora, Boru's fabled
stronghold, was in Clare as far as I recall. Unless
"Blanaid" was illegitimate
and her mother lived in Ossory, it seems an unusual
way for a daughter of Boru's
to describe herself. Boru himself was from Thomond,
in Co. Clare, so a daughter
would surely either describe herself as from there, or
as a Princess of Munster
or Ireland?
My guess is that the reference to Malcolm's wife
Blanaid as a daughter of Brian Boru is from one of the
royal genealogies of Britain. Brian's second wife
Eachraidh is a daughter of Cearbhall or Carroll, King
of Ossory. Cearbhall (Kierval) is also the father of
Audna or Ethne, mother of Earl Sigurd of the Orkneys.
Sigaurd (Siward) apparently married Dovada or Donada,
a daughter of Malcolm II and Blanaid.
Doda/Donada/Donalda/Dovada was also apparently married
to Findlaech of Moray and mother of MacBeth. Duncan I
is the son of Crinan the lay abbot of Dunkeld and his
wife Bethoc (Beatrix, Beatrice), also a daughter of
Malcolm II and Blanaid. Thus the co-conspirators
MacBeth and Thorfinn may actually have been
half-brothers and cousins to Duncan I whom they
conspired to kill, all three perhaps being
grandchildren of Malcolm II and Blanaid.
=====
Michael O'Hearn
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Sean MacLochlainn
news:2001081720240...@web13805.mail.yahoo.com...
> Unless "Blanaid" was illegitimate and her mother lived in Ossory, it
seems an unusual
> way for a daughter of Boru's to describe herself. Boru himself was from
Thomond,
> in Co. Clare, so a daughter would surely either describe herself as from
there, or
> as a Princess of Munster or Ireland?
No idea what the original question was, but illegitimacy counted for little
against paternity and "Princess of Munster" or "Princess of Ireland" look
like modern fancy.
Sean
Stewart Baldwin
O'Hearn) wrote:
This has been discussed before in great detail, so I would suggest
looking through the archives, using the names of the above individuals
(in various combinations) as keywords. The key points are as follows:
There does not appear to be any good reason to believe that Blanaid
ever existed. From what I can tell, she appeared from out of the blue
in Roger Chatterton Newman's biography of Brian, with no evidence to
support her existence. She has since been picked up from there by
some websites and by some historical fiction written by Morgan
Llywelyn (which sometimes contain some not very accurate genealogical
tables of Brian's family that some people insist on using, being
apparently unaware that a novel is a fairly poor place to go for
genealogical documentation). The fact that this alleged daughter of
Brian does not appear in recent histories of Scotland (which would
certainly have mentioned her if any good evidence for such a marriage
was known) indicates that Blanaid should be regarded as almost certain
fiction.
It does remind me, however, that I neglected to mention this claimed
marriage when I wrote up the page for Malcolm II in the Henry Project.
Even though it is almost certainly false, this should be mentioned in
the "Commentary" section on Malcolm's page, so it looks like I have
some revising to do when I get the chance.
A few other inaccuracies in the above statements should be pointed
out.
1. Brian's wife Echrad (Eachraidh) was not a daughter of king Cerball
of Osraige (Ossory). She was a daughter of Carrlus mac Ailella of the
Uí Áeda Odba, a dynasty of the population group known as the Gailenga,
a group unrelated to the Osraige. The dynasty descended from Áed
Odba, who died in 701 [Annals of Ulster], but the exact line of
descent of Carrlus from Áed Odba is unknown. The name of the father
of Echrad has sometimes been erroneously give as Cerball, an error
that is due to the fact that the name Cerball has sometimes been
Anglicized as "Charles" (also erroneously). Thus, some have falsely
"corrected" the name Carrlus (the middle Irish form of Charles) to
Cerball, on the assumption that it had been incorrectly Anglicized.
However, the name Carrlus is a genuine name that appears in the Irish
sources from the ninth century on (probably as a borrowing from the
Norse, or, less likely, in imitation of Charlemagne), and there is no
need to make this false "correction" to the name of Echrad's father.
The error that Echrad's father was Cerball of Osraige is apparently
another blunder added to this original mistake.
2. While the sagas (such as Orkneyinga saga) do say that jarl Sigurd
of Orkney (d. 1014) was a maternal grandson of an Irish king named
Cerball, it is quite unlikely, for obvious chronological reasons, that
his grandfather was the famous Cerball of Osraige (d. 888).
3. The claim that king Mac Bethad of Scotland (Macbeth) was a maternal
grandson of Malcolm II is poorly documented, and quite likely to be
false. See Malcolm's page at the Henry Project website.
Stewart Baldwin
McMchlncp
seems an unusual
> way for a daughter of Boru's to describe herself. Boru himself was from
Thomond,
> in Co. Clare, so a daughter would surely either describe herself as from
there, or
> as a Princess of Munster or Ireland?
No idea what the original question was, but illegitimacy counted for little
against paternity and "Princess of Munster" or "Princess of Ireland" look
like modern fancy.
>>
I don't think that she was illegitimate, supposing that she was from Ossory in
the sense that her mother may have been Eachraidh, daughter of Cearbhall the
King of Ossory, and wife of Brian Boru. I haven't been able to find the source
where Malcolm's bride may be styled as a "woman of Ossory" other than as stated
in the referenced post. (It may be that she would not describe herself thus,
but that the Scots describe her thus.) Blanaid's mother may also have been Mor
who is a daughter of Flan O'Hyne of Galway, assuming that she was in fact
Brian's daughter. Roger Chatterton Newman suggests that she was given in
marriage to Brian before he became Ard Ri, which would probably indicate that
either Mor or Eachraidh is her mother. If indeed there is solid evidence that
Malcolm's wife Blanaid was from Ossory, then there is at least some reason to
suppose that this refers to Eachraidh the daughter of Cearbhall and wife of
Brian.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> It does remind me, however, that I neglected to mention this claimed
> marriage when I wrote up the page for Malcolm II in the Henry Project.
> Even though it is almost certainly false, this should be mentioned in
> the "Commentary" section on Malcolm's page, so it looks like I have
> some revising to do when I get the chance.
Which reminds me. There should be a "Last Modified:" date on the
Henry Project pages (and anyone citing the pages should include
this date, along with the author, page and project in the
citation).
taf
Michael O Hearn
Cearbhall is listed in O'Brien Pedigree as a son of Olioll Fionn. The name has
been anglicized as Carroll which translates to Carl or Charles in English. The
Ely O'Carroll were not Osraigh but Cianachta. However, the territory in which
O'Carroll lived at a later date may have been designated in later Scottish
sources as Ossory. Eachraidh may have been ni Carroll (referring back to an
earlier king) before her marriage to Brian, as patronymics were just beginning
to come into use at the time, which the scribes could then have written as ni
Carrlus. Alternatively, if her father was of the Gailenge of Brega or Mide
there is little likelihood that a daughter of hers married to Malcolm would
have been called "of Ossory" even by the Scots.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
Ossory appears to be from George Buchanan (1505-1582) who was tutor to Mary,
Queen of Scots and King James I, probably his "Rerum Scoticarum Historica"
published in 1582.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
he is the same as Carroll meaning "warlike champion" who was one of Brian
Boru's leading swordsmen at the battle of Clontarf and probably the eponymous
ancestors of the O'Carrolls of Ely. I believe that he was of the Cianachta of
Ely and that his territory could thus have been termed Ossory by the Scots in
referring to the place of origin of their Queen Blanaid.
Michael
Sean MacLochlainn
news:20010818114836...@mb-fy.aol.com...
That's a lot of belief but very little substance.
Sean
Michael O Hearn
The alternative for Cearbhall of Ely would be Cearbhall of Ossory who lived, as
previously stated, in the 9th century. According to Woulfe, there is also a
minor sept of O'Carrolls from Ossory of which this Cearbhall may be the
eponymous ancestor. However, it is also the case that the eponymous ancestor
of O'Carroll of Ely is variously claimed to be the Cearbhall who is undoubtedly
mentioned in "Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh" and contemporary of Brian Boru, as
well as another more distant 9th century king Cearbhall ancestor as stated in a
paper by Margaret Hogan delivered at the Carroll Clan gathering in Birr in
1999.
If in fact the supposition that Malcolm II's wife was from Ossory does appear
in Buchanan's work and is authentic, and assuming that she was a daughter of
Brian Boru and that the marriage was arranged before Brian became Ard Ri as
Roger Chesterton Newman implies in his book, then in all likelihood she was
probably a daughter of Eachraidh ni Cearbhall. This could mean that Eachraidh
was from the Ossory sept of Ui Cearbhall (O'Carroll) or that she was perhaps
from the Cianachta sept of Ui Cearbhall (O'Carroll). The father of Carroll of
Ely was Aed according to Margaret Hogan's dissertation. In the O'Brien
pedigree Eachraidh's father is said to be Olioll Fionn. The Clan Cian claimed
descent from their progenitor Olioll Olum of the same first name. Moreover, as
reflected in subsequent historical events, the Dal Cais of which Brian belonged
were not on very good terms with Osraighe but were on good terms with Ely.
My conclusion is that if and only if Brian Boru was in fact the father-in-law
of Malcolm II, then in all probability Malcolm's wife was a daughter of Brian
and his second wife Eachraidh ni Cearbhall, and that Eachraidh ni Cearbhall was
the daughter of Cearbhall ancestor of Ely O'Carroll.
Michael
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
The problem with these beliefs is that primary sources of high quality
prove them quite unambiguously to be COMPLETELY false. I was
apparently not clear enough when I said this before, so let me repeat
it more plainly. First, Cerball/Cearbhall and Carrlus (the Middle
Irish equivalent of the name Charles) are NOT the same name. It is
true that Charles has sometimes INCORRECTLY been used as an
Anglicization of the quite different Irish name Cerball, but that does
not make them the same name. The early sources (e.g., the Banshenchas
as it appears in the Books of Lecan and Uí Maine) quite clearly give
the name of Echrad's father as Carrlus (a not very common name that is
attested in Ireland from the ninth century on). The fact that some
LATE sources, confusing the two different names, erroneously change
this name to Cerball (or some other spelling of the same name) is
without any relevance whatsoever. Echrad's father was named Carrlus,
NOT Cerball/Cearbhall.
Secondly, the Book of Lecan version quite clearly states that Carrlus
was king of Ui Áeda Odba, would would make him of the Gailenga, and
not of the Ciannachta.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>...
>If in fact the supposition that Malcolm II's wife was from Ossory does appear
>in Buchanan's work and is authentic, and assuming that she was a daughter of
>Brian Boru and that the marriage was arranged ...
I thank you for the reference to Buchanan, and I will check it out
when (and if) I can find a copy. However, the assumptions in your
statement are contradictory. If Malcolm's wife is "from Ossory", that
would in fact be evidence that the said wife was NOT also a daughter
of Brian Boru (a claim for which no evidence has ever been advanced
that I know of), as a daughter of Brian would not be called a woman
from Ossory.
Stewart Baldwin
Michael O Hearn
>prove them quite unambiguously to be COMPLETELY false. I was
>apparently not clear enough when I said this before, so let me repeat
>it more plainly. First, Cerball/Cearbhall and Carrlus (the Middle
>Irish equivalent of the name Charles) are NOT the same name. It is
>true that Charles has sometimes INCORRECTLY been used as an
>Anglicization of the quite different Irish name Cerball, but that does
>not make them the same name. The early sources (e.g., the Banshenchas
>as it appears in the Books of Lecan and Uí Maine) quite clearly give
>the name of Echrad's father as Carrlus (a not very common name that is
>attested in Ireland from the ninth century on). The fact that some
>LATE sources, confusing the two different names, erroneously change
>this name to Cerball (or some other spelling of the same name) is
>without any relevance whatsoever. Echrad's father was named Carrlus,
>NOT Cerball/Cearbhall.
>
>Secondly, the Book of Lecan version quite clearly states that Carrlus
>was king of Ui Áeda Odba, would would make him of the Gailenga, and
>not of the Ciannachta.
That is a worthwhile bit of information. It would cause me to considerably
revise my view concerning the political relationships of Brian's clan vis a vis
the rest of Ireland, Gailenga territory being quite a bit further to the north
and east as well as being outside Munster. I would have to guess then that at
the time of the marriage Brian's brother Mahon was already king of Munster
thereby giving the clan some status in Ireland as a whole. I do plan to
consult the O'Carroll pedigree to see if there is any reference to Brian Boru
which I doubt to be the case.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
>when (and if) I can find a copy. However, the assumptions in your
>statement are contradictory. If Malcolm's wife is "from Ossory", that
>would in fact be evidence that the said wife was NOT also a daughter
>of Brian Boru (a claim for which no evidence has ever been advanced
>that I know of), as a daughter of Brian would not be called a woman
>from Ossory.
Absolutely correct. The best available evidence does not support the
proposition that the wife of Malcolm II of Scotland was a daughter of Brian
Boru.
Michael
Stewart Baldwin
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>Which reminds me. There should be a "Last Modified:" date on the
>Henry Project pages (and anyone citing the pages should include
>this date, along with the author, page and project in the
>citation).
Something similar has also been suggested to me in private e-mail
correspondence, and I think it is a good idea. The main question is
how to implement it, and I think that question is related to the
question of how pages get into the database in the first place, which
needs to be discussed first.
When I was originally thinking about this project, one of the
possibilities that I thought about was to have the pages done along
the same lines as articles in a scholarly journal, by going through
some sort of peer review (or "refereeing") process. For the benefit
of those not familiar with the typical process in such journals, let
me give a brief description. There are some variations in different
fields (and even from one journal to another), but typically, when an
article is submitted for publication to a "refereed" journal, the
editor first rejects any articles that are obviously unsuitable for
the journal (for reasons such as unsuitable subject matter or obvious
lack of quality). The ones that make it past this initial cut are
then sent to a (or perhaps more than one) "referee" (a researcher who
works in the area relevant to the paper), who is then supposed to read
the paper more carefully and give comments, along with a
recommendation as to whether or not the paper should be accepted, and
any recommendations for changes that need to be made first. I'm not
sure how it is in other fields, but my own experience in the field of
mathematics is that the referee's advice about whether or not the
paper should be accepted is usually (but not always) followed.
One of the problems that a genealogical database has is that of
quality control. Some databases (e.g., Ancestral File) deal with this
by having no quality control whatsoever, and in others the quality
control depends on the knowledge (or lack thereof) of a single
individual. One possibility for the Henry Project would have been to
use a refereeing process similar to scholarly journals, in which pages
would be analogous to articles, which would then be sent to "referees"
for recommendations about whether or not they got included. I decided
against that process partly because I do not believe that it is
logistically possible (there are too many "articles" that would have
to be refereed by too few individuals), and partly becasue I think it
is better to get as wide a range of opinions as possible.
Thus, I decided to have the submissions go through a two stage
process. The "provisional" stage (as all of the pages currently
submitted are) corresponds roughly to the refereeing process, except
that it is the participants of the newsgroup and mailing list as a
whole that are acting as an analogue of the referees, and it is up to
the Editorial Board to decide which (if any) of the suggestions,
comments, complaints, etc. about a particular page need to be
addressed. At some point, once the Editorial Board feels that enough
time has elapsed that people have had a chance to have their say, the
pages then get accepted into the "main" database (which is empty at
the moment).
That brings us back to the subject of indicating changes. I agree
completely that once pages become a part of the "main" database, any
significant later changes should be noted and dated. I am less
certain that this is a good idea while pages are still in the
"provisional" phase. Such pages are very susceptible to having typos,
spelling mistakes, or even overlooked children or other missing
information that somebody might point out. Thus, I am inclined to
believe that the authors and Editorial Board ought to have the
flexibility of making changes to the provisional pages without having
to note the date of every single change.
For the accepted pages, how does something like this sound?
1. Once accepted into the main database, the dates of original
submission and acceptance will be noted on the page.
2. Minor changes (such as correcting minor typos, minor changes in
format) that do not affect the information given on the page can be
made at any time without noting the change.
3. If changes are made which do alter something of substance (such as
correcting an incorrectly typed date, or adding an overlooked child),
the date of the change will be noted, along with a description of the
change made.
4. If major revisions are made to a page which has already been
accepted into the database, then it will be regarded as a new version,
and a link to the old version (or all older versions, if applicable)
will be provided for the benefit of those who want to examine the
contents of the older version(s).
Comments?
Stewart Baldwin
Albert B. Bach
> Thus, I decided to have the submissions go through a two stage
> process. The "provisional" stage (as all of the pages currently
> submitted are) corresponds roughly to the refereeing process, except
> that it is the participants of the newsgroup and mailing list as a
> whole that are acting as an analogue of the referees, and it is up to
> the Editorial Board to decide which (if any) of the suggestions,
> comments, complaints, etc. about a particular page need to be
> addressed. At some point, once the Editorial Board feels that enough
> time has elapsed that people have had a chance to have their say, the
> pages then get accepted into the "main" database (which is empty at
> the moment).
If this group can't get it right, who could? There appears to be no
small number of people with excellent source material available to
them. This referee process sounds good. I hope all those with ready
input, and there are a handful, provide such.
> For the accepted pages, how does something like this sound?
>
> 1. Once accepted into the main database, the dates of original
> submission and acceptance will be noted on the page.
I don't know why date of orignal submission is important. Date of
acceptance and posting would be analogous to the publication date in a
journal. That should be sufficient for tracking it for the audience
to the project.
> 2. Minor changes (such as correcting minor typos, minor changes in
> format) that do not affect the information given on the page can be
> made at any time without noting the change.
Sure.
> 3. If changes are made which do alter something of substance (such as
> correcting an incorrectly typed date, or adding an overlooked child),
> the date of the change will be noted, along with a description of the
> change made.
If you use a colored footnote #, and provide your "change log" at the
bottom of the page, not only could you provide the date of the change,
what changed (from "..." to "...") but also the why and on what
authority.
> 4. If major revisions are made to a page which has already been
> accepted into the database, then it will be regarded as a new version,
> and a link to the old version (or all older versions, if applicable)
> will be provided for the benefit of those who want to examine the
> contents of the older version(s).
Whatever old edition you keep in the background, if it's been changed
ala step 3, include the final changes that prompted the new version.
Even though it's old, it will have all the same information. The new
version will incorporate all the corrections without referencing the
changes that produced it. No sense keeping a page on the internet
with errors on it. Even if there are newer versions of it "nearby,"
what keeps an internet search from landing on an old, error filled
page? If you keep the old version, keep with it all the changes that
produces the new version. (Obviously you could only keep one
"previous" version on file, or you'll have multiple "changed"
versions. Perhaps just make note of the dates of versions earlier
than this?)
Peter E. Murray
or otherwise of any woman who could have been mistaken for Malcolm's wife.
(Ref: George Buchannan (d1582). The History of Scotland. 4 vol. Transl from
the Latin by J Aikman. Blackie, Fullarton & Co., Edinburgh, 1827).
Peter
----------
> From: Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com>
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Brian Boru's supposed daughter "Blanaid" of Ossory
> Date: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:54 PM
>
> On 18 Aug 2001 20:45:46 GMT, mcmc...@aol.com (Michael O Hearn)
> wrote:
>
> >...
> >If in fact the supposition that Malcolm II's wife was from Ossory does
appear
> >in Buchanan's work and is authentic, and assuming that she was a
daughter of
> >Brian Boru and that the marriage was arranged ...
>
> I thank you for the reference to Buchanan, and I will check it out
> when (and if) I can find a copy. However, the assumptions in your
> statement are contradictory. If Malcolm's wife is "from Ossory", that
> would in fact be evidence that the said wife was NOT also a daughter
> of Brian Boru (a claim for which no evidence has ever been advanced
> that I know of), as a daughter of Brian would not be called a woman
> from Ossory.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
Michael O Hearn
The sept of O'Carroll of Ossory is supposedly descended from an ancestor king
named Cearbhall who lived in the 9th century. This would seem to be very
unusual insofar as patronymic surnames only became common in Ireland around
1000 A.D. and O'Clerigh of Galway is thought to be the oldest with an ancestor
named Clerigh who lived during the mid to late 10th century. In any event,
there could have been a later Cearbhall of this or another Ossory sept, or a
possible wife of Malcolm II from Ossory could have been from this same sept and
therefore have been called Blanaid ni Cearbhall if in fact Blanaid was her
first name as it appears in some genealogies relating to Malcolm II and also
the Stewart kings of Scotland. It is also stated in some genealogies that
Malcolm's mother and wife of Kenneth I was a princess of Leinster so it would
not be unreasonable that Malcolm may have married a daughter of an Ossory sept
whether or not this appears in a work of George Buchanan.
The connection with Brian Boru could have come later due to the supposition
that his second wife Eachraidh was a daughter of Cearbhall son of Olioll Fionn
as stated in some genealogies, and that she descended from the Ossory sept.
Even so, the connection with Ossory would still be problematic insofar as the
petty kingdom ruled by Brian's father Cinneidi in Thomond was not on very good
terms with Ossory as appears from the Annals. A more likely connection could
be made with the sept of O'Carroll of Eile, but the Cearbhall of this sept who
later fought alongside Brian at Clontarf appears from the genealogy to be a son
of Aodh or Aed, not Olioll Fionn. The Cianachta of Eile do claim a more
distant ancestral descent from Oilioll Olum who has the same first name as
Eachraidh's grandfather Oilioll Fionn as it appears in the O'Brien genealogies.
The references to Carolus of the Gailenga as father of Eachraidh in the Book of
Lecan and in the Book of Ui Maine would tend to be supported by the fact that
Cinnedi's wife and Brian's mother Bebinn ni Flaherty was from Galway, and a
branch of the Gailenga migrated at an early date from the Meath-Cavan-Dublin
region of Leinster into Brefny and northern Mayo from the latter region which
sprang the septs of O'Hara and O'Gara therey being fron Connaught as is the
O'Flaherty sept. Lecan is located in Sligo and Ui Maine territory is in east
Galway both adjacent to the Gailenga territory in Mayo. The Ui Gailenga are
also Cianachta claiming descent from Oilioll Olum who bears the same first name
as Eachraidh's grandfather in the O'Brien genealogies. (I have also seen a
reference to Blanaid wife of Malcolm II as a daughter of Brian Boru and his
first wife Mor ni hEidhin from the O'Hynes sept of Galway.)
If indeed the suppositions that the wife of Kenneth I and mother of Malcolm II
was a Leinster princess, and that the wife of Malcolm II was an Irishwoman from
Ossory are authentic, then the supposed connection with King Brian could have
come about later if in fact Blanaid wife of Malcolm II was descended from the
O'Carroll sept of Ossory and thus called Blanaid ni Cearbhall, and when
compared with the O'Brien genealogy which states that Eachraidh's father was
named Cearbhall (not Carolus), it may have been assumed in Scotland that the
wife of Malcolm II, Blanaid ni Cearbhall of the Ossory O'Carroll sept, was a
daughter of Brian Boru and Eachraidh his second wife. This could then have
appeared in later genealogies such as that of the Stewart kings of Scotland and
England which also show descent through the English line from the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicles.
None of this of course is meant as proof that Malcolm II's wife was named
Blanaid, that she was an Irishwoman from Ossory, or that she belonged to a sept
of O'Carroll.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
Should be "Malcolm's mother and and wife of Kenneth II was a princess of
Leinster . . ."
Michael
Michael O Hearn
>II
>was a Leinster princess . . .
Likewise, this should read:
"If indeed the supposition(s) that the wife of Kenneth II and mother of Malcolm
II was a Leinster princess . . ."
Michael
Michael O Hearn
>named Clerigh who lived during the mid to late 10th century.
Cleireach is thought to have flourished as early as 850 A.D.. Still even
supposing a 9th century ancestor for the O'Carroll sept, it would not change
the hypothesis that Blanaid ni Cearbhall of Ossory could have existed, and that
she could have become Queen of Scotland through marriage to Malcolm II.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
Ossory could be that a daughter of Echraidh was born either during or after her
marriage to Gilla Patraic who is presumably the eponymous ancestor of
Fitzpatrick of Ossory. If a daughter was born of this marriage, and Echraidh's
marriage to Brian Boru was subsequent to the marriage, then the daughter could
have become a stepdaughter of Brian and could thus have been considered by the
Scots as being both from Ossory by virtue of being born there, and a daughter
of King Brian. She could have been Blanaid or Blanead wife of Malcolm II. If
an actual daughter of Echraidh and Brian, the attribution of her as being of
Ossory would pertain more to her mother's marriage to Gilla Patraic if indeed
this was before her marriage to Brian.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
MacBeth. Legend has it that the wife of Kenneth II and mother of Malcolm II
was a Leinster princess. The possibility exists that Malcolm II's wife was
from Ossory and a daughter of Brian Boru although both of these traditions are
not necessarily connected. Giolla Padraig mac Dunnchada was King of Ossraigh
from 976-996 A.D. and was married to Echraidh. Their daughter Aife was married
to Donnchad Mael na mBo of Ui Cheinnselaig who apparently died in 1006 A.D..
Duncan the son of Malcolm II and Bethoc was born in 1007 A.D.. Chronologically
it would thus be possible for Bethoc's mother who may have been named Blanaid
to have lived in Ossory as a child during the time that Eachraidh was married
to Giolla Padraig and while he was king of Ossory, and to have been born during
the time that Eachraidh was married to Brian Boru. Thus she could have
simultaneously been a daughter of Brian Boru and from Ossory. The proximity of
Leinster province to Scotland would also add support to these traditions.
As in the case of Dermot MacMurrough of Leinster, subsequent British monarchs
appear to have shown a particular affection for the Fitzpatrick descendants of
Giolla Padraig of Ossory. This could be explained if there was a kinship
relation with the ancestors of Dermot distantly related to the Leinster
princess married to Kenneth II if indeed that was the case, and a similar
though perhaps indirect kinship relation with the Fitzgerald sept if indeed a
stepdaughter of Giolla Padraig married Malcolm II.
Whether or not any actual historical evidence exists to support either of these
traditions remains to be seen.
Michael
Sean MacLochlainn
> The proximity of Leinster province to Scotland would also add support to these
traditions.
I live in Leinster and out of England, Wales and Scotland it is least proximate
to Scotland.
Sean
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>There is little if any information on the Scottish Queens prior to the
>time of MacBeth. Legend has it that the wife of Kenneth II and mother
>of Malcolm II was a Leinster princess.
In this case, the "legend" can be attributed to a specific early
source, namely "Berchan's Prophesy", a king list of Scottish kings
which was rewritten as a prophesy.
>The possibility exists that Malcolm II's wife was from Ossory and a
>daughter of Brian Boru although both of these traditions are not
>necessarily connected.
In this case, ZERO evidence has been put forward in support of either
the claim that Malcolm's wife was from Osraige or that she was a
daughter of Brian.
>Giolla Padraig mac Dunnchada was King of Ossraigh from 976-996 A.D.
>and was married to Echraidh. Their daughter Aife was married to
>Donnchad Mael na mBo of Ui Cheinnselaig who apparently died in 1006
>A.D..
The "Banshenchas" does make Aife the daughter of a certain Gilla
Pátraic, but does not otherwise identify this Gilla Pátraic, so one
cannot identify his with one of the kings of Osraige of that name
without further evidence. It is true that the name Gilla Pátraic was
common in the ruling dynasty of Osraige at the time, but it was also
used by other families.
>Duncan the son of Malcolm II and Bethoc was born in 1007 A.D..
>Chronologically it would thus be possible for Bethoc's mother who may
>have been named Blanaid to have lived in Ossory as a child during the
>time that Eachraidh was married to Giolla Padraig and while he was
>king of Ossory, and to have been born during the time that Eachraidh
>was married to Brian Boru. Thus she could have simultaneously been a
>daughter of Brian Boru and from Ossory. The proximity of Leinster
>province to Scotland would also add support to these traditions.
Unfortunately, this is all speculation, with no supporting evidence.
>Whether or not any actual historical evidence exists to support either
>of these traditions remains to be seen.
I have not yet seen anything that would even justify the word
"tradition" for these claims, for I have seen no source earlier than
the late twentieth century that makes either of these claims.
Stewart Baldwin
Michael O Hearn
He was actually grandson of Malcolm II, and son of Crinan the lay abbot of
Dunkeld. However, the above statement is not unlike some genealogical sources
which are not very precise, e.g. Huntingdon's entry referring to Macbeth as
nepos of Malcolm II. I would take this to be the best evidence available as to
Malcolm's paternal descent albeit that it is not contemporary. Sometimes these
sources are the only clues we have. I recall there being a similar designation
with regard to Duncan as nepos of Malcolm II perhaps from Berchan's Prophecy,
and I doubt that anyone would contend that this does not accurately mean
grandson as pertaining to Duncan in this context. I did come across a
scholarly conjecture which I can no longer locate on the web making Macbeth the
grandson of Kenneth II as inferred from his supposed claim to the right of
succession to the kingship under the Scottish law of tanistry which was at that
time not based on primogeniture. I find this argument unpersuasive in that the
Scottish as opposed to the Pictish law of succession was never through the
maternal line. Macbeth's claim would probably have been as strong or stronger
as a grandson of Malcolm. Both the claims of Macbeth and Duncan appear to be
based upon the lineages of their wives. The assumption seems to be that
Malcolm II had killed all of the potential male successors under the system of
tanistry (with the exception possibly of one distant relative) so as to insure
the succession of his grandson and heir apparent Duncan who was related through
the female line being the son of Bethoc and Crinan. I have also seen reference
that Kenneth II tried to change the law of succession to insure his son's
kingship but to no avail.
>The "Banshenchas" does make Aife the daughter of a certain Gilla
>Pátraic, but does not otherwise identify this Gilla Pátraic, so one
>cannot identify his with one of the kings of Osraige of that name
>without further evidence. It is true that the name Gilla Pátraic was
>common in the ruling dynasty of Osraige at the time, but it was also
>used by other families.
With no other evidence as to whom Malcolm II's wife may have been, this at
least provides a starting point. The fact that the descendants of Giolla
Padraig of Ossory became the Fitzpatrick sept and that he was himself king
would lead me to suppose that he would be the most likely candidate to marry
Eachraidh the former or subsequent wife of Brian Boru.
>Unfortunately, this is all speculation, with no supporting evidence.
The supporting albeit circumstantial evidence is that Eachraidh was wife of
both Brian Boru and Giolla Pagraig, that at the same relevant time the present
or future king of Ossory was named Giolla Padraig, and that both of these
marriages occurred at a time in which, given a possible generational span of
say twenty years, it would not be inconceivable that a daughter of hers (e.g.
Blanaid) was Married to Malcolm II of Scotland with granddaughters perhaps
becoming the wives of Sigurd and Macbeth (e.g. Doada) and of Duncan I (e.g.
Bethoc), given also the historical references to Malcolm's mother as being a
Leinster princess, the geographical proximity of Leinster to Scotland and
Wales, and the subsequent history of the British Crown's affection for
individuals of certain families notably MacMurrough of Leinster and
Fitzpatrick of Ossory. Again, in the abscence of any other evidence to the
contrary with regard to the ancestry of Malcolm II's wife, all that can be done
is to prove that such a relationship with a daugher of Brian Boru who may have
been from Ossory is not chronologically implausible.
>I have not yet seen anything that would even justify the word
>"tradition" for these claims, for I have seen no source earlier than
>the late twentieth century that makes either of these claims.
Obviously. In fact, practically all of the history of Scotland and Ireland at
this and earlier periods is based upon some form of oral tradition. It is
probable that Scottish succession not being through the maternal line, there
was little if any reason to record the names of Scottish queens. Since no
grave inscription on the island of Iona has been found which confirms the
actual identity of Malcolm II's wife, we are left with only oral tradition
which we can only demonstrate as not being chronologically inconsistent with
the hypothesis that Malcolm II's wife was simultaneously a daughter of Brian
Boru who also happened to be from Ossory. I seriously doubt that modern
commentators would have had sufficent incentive to completely fabricate such
claims which I therefore attribute to independent oral traditions of a very
early date . . .and I know that I did not make it up myself.
I do accept the validity of the historico-critical method to arrive at truth in
matters such as these.
Michael
Michael O Hearn
(e.g.
>Bethoc). . .
Should read:
. . .becoming the wives of Sigurd father of Thorfinn and of Findlaech father of
Macbeth (e.g. Doada) and of Duncan I (e.g. Bethoc). . .
Michael
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> >>Duncan the son of Malcolm II and Bethoc was born in 1007 A.D..
>
> He was actually grandson of Malcolm II, and son of Crinan the lay abbot of
> Dunkeld. However, the above statement is not unlike some genealogical sources
> which are not very precise, e.g. Huntingdon's entry referring to Macbeth as
> nepos of Malcolm II.
> I did come across a
> scholarly conjecture which I can no longer locate on the web making Macbeth the
> grandson of Kenneth II as inferred from his supposed claim to the right of
> succession to the kingship under the Scottish law of tanistry which was at that
> time not based on primogeniture.
Tanistry was not so much a law as it was a tradition. The "law"
of succession was that whichever royal relative managed to get
together an army big enough to kill the previous king became his
successor.
> Macbeth's claim would probably have been as strong or stronger
> as a grandson of Malcolm.
The problem with this is that Macbeth was active on an
international stage years before malcolm's death, while Duncan
was not. He was almost certainly older, and that begs the
question, why wasn't he Malcolm's heir?
> Both the claims of Macbeth and Duncan appear to be
> based upon the lineages of their wives.
Not Duncan. Macbeth's was primarily based on being a strong
military leader (even hero) with a large army and political base
behind him, which Duncan didn't have.
> The assumption seems to be that
> Malcolm II had killed all of the potential male successors under the system of
> tanistry (with the exception possibly of one distant relative) so as to insure
> the succession of his grandson
Not to mention to keep them from killing him (Malcolm).
> say twenty years, it would not be inconceivable that a daughter of hers (e.g.
> Blanaid) was Married to Malcolm II of Scotland with granddaughters perhaps
> becoming the wives of Sigurd and Macbeth (e.g. Doada) and of Duncan I (e.g.
> Bethoc),
Even IF Macbeth were nepos of Malcolm, there is no evidence that
his mother was the same woman who was married to Sigurd, who is
not named in any trustworthy source.
taf
taf
Michael O Hearn
of Malcolm II aside from fiction, mythology, and psuedo?history is with regard
to a document pertainig to the Stewart royal family. In this document the wife
of Malcolm is given as Blanead a daughter of Brian Boru. Her name is not
spelled the same as the Blanaid of fictional accounts leading me to the
supposition that the genealogy is based upon an indepencent source. (I do not
recall whether there is any reference to Malcolm's wife in Shakespeare's
"Macbeth". However, there is apparently some activity in the play on the part
of Macbeth's mother (who may historically be the same person according to later
accounts).
I do know that there are genealogies available in the British Museum which form
the basis of family histories. I do not know whether any such information is
also available from the British Royal College of Heralds. This would seem to
be the logical starting point for any research to pursue with regard to written
records pertaining to the maternal ancestry of Malcolm II of Scotland. It is
my contention that such written genealogical information may be based upon
reliable oral traditions of a very early date.
Most written genealogies are of little value historically although they can
form the basis of, for example, recognition as a chief or member of a sept as
recognized within the Republic of Eire.
Michael
areth...@gmail.com
> Michell Murphy writes:
>
> Does anyone have any concrete information on Boru's
> daughters? Ossory, being in
> modern Laois/Tipperary, wouldn't have been a huge
> distance away from Cashel
> where the Kings of Munster's royal seat was located.
> Kincora, Boru's fabled
> stronghold, was in Clare as far as I recall. Unless
> "Blanaid" was illegitimate
> and her mother lived in Ossory, it seems an unusual
> way for a daughter of Boru's
> to describe herself. Boru himself was from Thomond,
> in Co. Clare, so a daughter
> would surely either describe herself as from there, or
> as a Princess of Munster
> or Ireland?
>
> My guess is that the reference to Malcolm's wife
> Blanaid as a daughter of Brian Boru is from one of the
> royal genealogies of Britain. Brian's second wife
> Eachraidh is a daughter of Cearbhall or Carroll, King
> of Ossory. Cearbhall (Kierval) is also the father of
> Audna or Ethne, mother of Earl Sigurd of the Orkneys.
> Sigaurd (Siward) apparently married Dovada or Donada,
> a daughter of Malcolm II and Blanaid.
> Doda/Donada/Donalda/Dovada was also apparently married
> to Findlaech of Moray and mother of MacBeth. Duncan I
> is the son of Crinan the lay abbot of Dunkeld and his
> wife Bethoc (Beatrix, Beatrice), also a daughter of
> Malcolm II and Blanaid. Thus the co-conspirators
> MacBeth and Thorfinn may actually have been
> half-brothers and cousins to Duncan I whom they
> conspired to kill, all three perhaps being
> grandchildren of Malcolm II and Blanaid.
>
> Brian Boru had three daughters, one was married to Malcom II of scotland, the other to the earl of desmond and lastly the youngest to sitric olaffson viking king of dublin, his favorite daughter I have read. they have the records incorrect most of the children came from his first wife Deidre or Mor, whichever name you want to call her, she was his favorite wife and most beloved of all of them. The last wife was his disaster...
>
>
>
> =====
> Michael O'Hearn
>
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