JOAN PRINCESS OF WALES
Sandy McDougall
Hello All,
I may have missed the message if it has been discussed, if so I am
sorry for a repeat.
What is the current general concensus on the mother of Joan, wife of
Llewelyn ap Iorwerth?
Also, is Joan or Joanna correct?
Thanks, Sandy
William A. Reitwiesner
Sandy McDougall <sa...@MOSQUITONET.COM> posted:
> I may have missed the message if it has been discussed, if so I am
>sorry for a repeat.
>
> What is the current general concensus on the mother of Joan, wife of
>Llewelyn ap Iorwerth?
>
> Also, is Joan or Joanna correct?
The consensus is that she's called "Joan".
As for her mother, there's one and only one place where her mother is
named, and that's in the Tewkesbury annals. It's been published, and you
can see the entry yourself. You may have to go to one of the larger
research libraries, but it's in the *Rerum Britannicarum Medii Aevi
Scriptores* series, vol. 36 (1864), and it's called "Annales de
Theokesberia". Look on page 101, and you'll see this entry:
Obiit domina Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini, filia regis
Johannis et reginae Clemenciae, iii. kal. Aprilis.
Translated into English it reads "Died lady Joan lady of Wales, wife of
Llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clemencia, 30 March." (I may
have the date wrong, but it's been a long time since I studied medieval
chronology).
So, how do we interpret this entry? It's obviously wrong in what it
actually says, because there never was a Queen Clemencia in England. Some
have said that "reginae" is the part that's wrong, and that Joan's mother
was a woman named Clemencia. Some of these say that Clemencia was a woman
of low birth, others try to find a Baron's wife or daughter living at about
the right time named Clemencia (so far I've seen five different candidates
put forward). Others say that it's the "Clemenciae" part that's wrong (or
it's a description, "the kind queen"), and that Joan was a legitimate
daughter of John by his first wife Isabel, and was illegitimated when John
divorced Isabel. Or that Joan's mother was John's sister-in-law
Constance. Another group says that both "reginae" and "Clemenciae" are
wrong and that "reginae Clemenciae" means Agatha Ferrers, daughter of the
Earl of Derby. Quite a lot of disagreement over what two little words
mean, but on the other hand those two little words are *all* we have to go
on.
So what's the answer? Which should you put in your charts? Answer:
whichever one you want to. Your guess is as good as anybody else's.
Those who are interested in who it was who said what about Joan's mother
can find citations in my article, "The children of Joan, Princess of North
Wales", in *The Genealogist* (APSG), vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-
95, notes 13 and 14. Since 1980 there have been some more candidates
brought forward, but without much (or any) evidence beyond the Tewkesbury
annals.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@loc.gov