Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
Doug Smith
daughter of Robert de Brewes (d. 1276) and his 2nd wife Beatrice de
Teyden.
Suzanne Doig in her post to SGM dated 1998-12-22, "Re: Donald, 8th
Earl of Mar" shows Beatrice de Teyden as the first wife of Robert "V"
Brus, Lord of Annandale (d. 1245).
Walford's Roll shows the arms of a John de Breuse whose father Robert
de Breuse died in 1276 as a differenced form of the Clare arms (having
a azure bordure).
Robert "V" of Annandale had a son Robert "VI" who was married to
Isabel de Clare.
It would seem likely that based on the heraldic evidence that that
John de Breuse was son of Robert "VI" who died 1294/5. At least this
would explain the Clare arms.
Obviously, there are some conflicts here. Does anyone have any
documentation to sort this out? Thanks.
Doug
Todd A. Farmerie
First of all, it is not clear to me that these two Beatrice de
Teyden brides must represent the same woman, but if so, there is
a significant difference between the descriptions - second wife
of the father vs. step-mother of the father (first wife of the
grandfather). Further, Robert de Brus VI died in 1295, not 1276.
I don't know where this Robert de Brewes fits, but the heraldry
could be misleading, as indicated by the following two
alternatives. He could have been a younger son of William de
Breuse of Bamber, who is said to have married Maud de Clare.
Likewise, CP mentions a Robert de Brewes who held land in
Gloucester, and thus may have been a vassal of the Clare Earls
(it was not uncommon in the early years of heraldry to difference
the arms of one's feudal lord).
taf
Chris Phillips
Doug Smith wrote:
> CP IX: 483 gives Hugh de Neville (d. 1269) a wife Beatrice de Brewes,
> daughter of Robert de Brewes (d. 1276) and his 2nd wife Beatrice de
> Teyden.
>
> Suzanne Doig in her post to SGM dated 1998-12-22, "Re: Donald, 8th
> Earl of Mar" shows Beatrice de Teyden as the first wife of Robert "V"
> Brus, Lord of Annandale (d. 1245).
I don't know the answer, but CP shows Hugh dying without issue, and his
widow Beatrice dying before July 1273 [presumably also without issue]
(citing Calendar of Inquisitions post mortem vol. 2, no 32).
It also says that Beatrice was the heir of her mother, Beatrice de Teyden,
who was herself the heir of her father. For Beatrice and her ancestry a host
of references are given, starting with Calendar of Inquisitions post mortem
vol. 2, nos 32, 160.
I should think these would make it clear which Robert de Brewes was
Beatrice's father. (At a guess, inquisition no 160 will be Robert's, giving
his death in 1276, and if so he can't be either Robert V or Robert VI of
Annandale.)
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
CIPM v.2 no.32, an inquisition for Walter de Evermuth dated 1272, tells a
slightly version in that Beatrice was the daughter of Walter de Evermuth and
that Robert de "Brywes" was holding Kneye alias Knaye, Lincs, and Runham,
Norfolk by courtesy of England because Beatrice had a daughter by him who
died without issue.
No 160, an inquisition for Robert de Brewes alias de Briws, de Bruys, dated
29 August 1276, is for Runham, Norfolk and Rysindone Basset, Gloucs.
Beatrice is described as a coheir of Walter de Evermuth. The heirs for
Runham were the three daughters of Jolland de Evermuth - Euphemia, wife of
Walter de Burgh, Margery, wife of Geoffrey de Fontibus, and Alice, the wife
of Walter Billingeye. For Rysindone Basset, the heir was Lettice, daughter
of Henry de Teyden.
Perhaps the Close Rolls and Fine Roll cited amend this information further.
There does not seem to be any information which identifies this Robert.
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:bde9pn$89c$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> CIPM v.2 no.32, an inquisition for Walter de Evermuth dated 1272, tells a
> slightly version in that Beatrice was the daughter of Walter de Evermuth
and
> that Robert de "Brywes" was holding Kneye alias Knaye, Lincs, and
Runham,
> Norfolk by courtesy of England because Beatrice had a daughter by him who
> died without issue.
>
> No 160, an inquisition for Robert de Brewes alias de Briws, de Bruys,
dated
> 29 August 1276, is for Runham, Norfolk and Rysindone Basset, Gloucs.
> Beatrice is described as a coheir of Walter de Evermuth. The heirs for
> Runham were the three daughters of Jolland de Evermuth - Euphemia, wife of
> Walter de Burgh, Margery, wife of Geoffrey de Fontibus, and Alice, the
wife
> of Walter Billingeye. For Rysindone Basset, the heir was Lettice,
daughter
> of Henry de Teyden.
Thanks for posting those details.
The first of these does make it sound possibly a bit more complicated.
Just in case anyone finds it useful, the full details given by CP [ix 483]
are:
"He [Hugh de Neville] m. Beatrice, da. of Robert DE BREWES (d. 1276) and h.
of her mother, Robert's 2nd wife, Beatrice, da. and h. of Paulinus DE TEYDEN
(by [? Beatrice,] da. and h. of Walter DE EVERMUE).(d)"
"(d) Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ii, nos. 32, 160; Close Rolls, 1234-37, p. 279
(where to Berte add [sic], and for Pauline read Paulini); 1242-47, p. 74;
1251-53, p. 334; Cal. Fine Rolls, vol. i, p. 7; B.M. Add. Chr. 8392; Duchy
of Lanc. Misc. 1/26, m. 4d."
(all the bracketed comments are CP's)
I'll add those other references to the list of things to look at.
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
had trouble coping with the various renditions of the name from the
inquisitions.
"Robert de Briwes alias de Brewes, de Brywes, de Bryus, de Briwys, de Brus,
de Bruys.
Writ 29 Aug 4 Edw I
Southampton. Inq. (undated)
Hupsonburn Kaumes. The manor, held of Ralph de Kaumes [RB-Camoys] by service
of 1/4 knight's fee.
John his son is his heir, and of full age.
Writ 28 Aug 4 Edw I
Gloucester. Inq Friday before St Matthew the Apostle, 4 Edw I
Rysindon Basset. The manor (extent given), with the advowson of the church
of Wyk', held of the earl of Cornwall of the honour of Wallingford, by
service of 1 knight.
John de Bryus, knight, his son aged 40 and more is his next heir.
Writ 29 Aug 4 Edw I
Surrey. Inq (undated)
Wiszly. The manor, held of Ralph Camoys by service of 1/4 knight's fee. [RB-
a moiety of this manor was given by Roger de Somery at fee farm to Robert
before 1240]
Heir as above, aged 40 or more.
Writ 28 Aug 4 Edw I
Somerset. Extent (undated).
Stapele. The manor (extent given), including 276 a. arable in Wodmanneuolde
and Underthehulle, 275 a. arable in the field of Stilham, Churcheye in the
marsh, Regweye and Gastone, 600 a pasture upon la Stapeldune, and the
advowson of the church, held of the king in chief of the fee of Mortain for
1/2 knight's fee.
Curilaunde in the manor of Stapele. 2 carucates land (extent given), held of
Richard de Cam, service unknown.
Hurdecote. The messuage and 1 virgate of land, worth 4 marks yearly, of the
land which was of Margery his wife, which she acquired before he married
her, tenure unspecified.
Writ 29 Aug 4 Edw I
Essex. Inq (undated)
Great Waker[ing]. The manor held of John de Nevile for life, by service of 1
knight's fee.
(unspecified) A grove of 7a. held of Hugh Conestabul by service of a clove
gillyflower yearly.
Suthorp in Sucherch. 47 1/2 a. land with a messuage, and 2a. marsh held of
Emma de Paggrave by service of 1d.
Heir as above.
Writ of plenius certiori, on the complaint of John de Neivill that the
escheator had taken into the king's hand the manor of Great Wakering, which
the said Robert held of him for life, 17 Sept 4 Edw I
Essex. Inq (undated)
Great Wakeringe. The manor was held for life as abovesaid, and ought to
revert to the said John and not to the heir of the said Robert."
[CIPM v.2 no. 194]
Robert figures in 'The Knights of Edward I' v. 5 p. 144, as Sir Robert de
Breuse, Justice of Pleas, where his arms are described as "A lion passant
gardant ermine' which is unlike any other Braose/Brus heraldry. However, his
son's are described as 'Or 3 chevrons gu. A bordure engrailed azure', which
as Doug Smith commented does rather reflect the Clare heraldry - 'Or 3
chevrons gu'. The only Clare connection I can make is that John's widow,
Margery, was holding a third of Bisseley manor, Worcs. of the heirs of
Gilbert de Clare in 1294. It is still not at all clear to me to which
family Robert and John belonged, but hopefully the above will aid further
research.
Cheers
Rosie
Doug Smith
> The following is the published IPM of Robert de Brewes. The scribe clearly
> had trouble coping with the various renditions of the name from the
> inquisitions.
>
Wow!! Great stuff Rosie. I am not at clear that the association with
the Lords of Annandale that some have made makes any sense.
Identifying this Robert de Brewes and his son John cooul prove
interesting. I am on the road will look at this weekend.
Thanks Again!!!
Doug
Doug Smith
Paul McKenzie posted this:
Inq. post. mort. in 1295 on
Gilbert de Clare, Earl, of (Gloucester and Hertford)
"Worchester. Inq. Wednesday after St. Hilary, 24 Edw. 1.
Bisseley. Two parts of the manor (extent given) held jointly with Joan his
wife of the king in chief and enfeoffment, service unknown, the third part
is held by Margery late the wife of John de Breuse in dower of the
inheritance of the said heirs of the said Gilbert. Gilbert his son, aged 5
at the feast of St. Mark last is his nxt heir."
Cal. Inq. post. mortem. Vol 3:p 234.
Doug
Rosie Bevan
Clares. I'm afraid that we can't really take this as evidence that there was
a family connection. As Todd suggested, it's possible that John was a knight
in the service of the earl. The line appears to be a cadet one, but to which
family (Braose of Bramber or Brus of Annandale/Skelton) is not immediately
obvious.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Smith" <al...@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
Doug Thompson
1.
> Paul Mackenzie has kindly informed me of a footnote on CP II p.307 note (f )
> which states that our Robert was the son and heir of John de Briwes of
> Staple who died in 1229. Unfortunately no sources are given, but this may
> take us further.
2.
> The line appears to be a cadet one, but to which
> family (Braose of Bramber or Brus of Annandale/Skelton) is not immediately
> obvious.
>
William de Braose (of Bramber), who died 1211 had a younger brother John who
would fit nicely into the position of John (father of Robert) above.
Only speculative but a search for any link may be worthwhile.
Doug Thompson
Rosie Bevan
So this John would be a son on William de Braose d.1179 and Bertha of
Gloucester?
There's a reference to John, father of Robert de Brewes in the Red Book of
the Exchequer p. 168, holding half a knight's fee of the Honour of Mortain
in Somerset between 1201-1210. This is clearly for Staple Fitzpaine which at
Domesday was worth £12 and held by the count of Mortain himself. It's
possible that John may have been given the manor by king John who possessed
the Honour from 1189.
No inquisitions have survived for John, son of Robert but a search of the
PRO online catalog brought the following up. It seems that John had a
daughter called Beatrice.
PRO E 210/8622
Thomas de Bucton, Archdeacon of Wells (1263 - 1266) to Sir John de Brywes
and Beatrice his daughter: Demise of the manors of Staple Fitzpaine
(Staples), Curland (Curylonde), and Bickenhall, a virgate in Hele in Orchard
(Portman), 100s. rent in Broadway (Bradewya), the manor of Wisley, a
messuage and carucate in Hodnell (Hodenhulle), the manor of Somborne, and a
virgate in Risington, which he had from the said John: Som.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Thompson" <doug.t...@virgin.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
Rosie Bevan
from whence it passed to the Percys of Northumberland.
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Smith" <al...@mindspring.com>
To: "Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
> Hi Rosie
>
> Great stuff that you have been finding! I agree, but I am leaning towards
> Braose not Brus. Todd is right, of course, but it is still possible that
> there was a Clare marriage explaining how Margery held Bisseley in dower.
> I am trying to find out more about Staple.
>
> Doug
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Rosie Bevan <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
> > To: Doug Smith <al...@mindspring.com>; <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Date: 6/28/2003 7:04:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
> >
> > Yes, this is what I was referring to, regarding the only connection with
> the
> > Clares. I'm afraid that we can't really take this as evidence that there
> was
> > a family connection. As Todd suggested, it's possible that John was a
> knight
> > in the service of the earl. The line appears to be a cadet one, but to
> which
> > family (Braose of Bramber or Brus of Annandale/Skelton) is not
immediately
> > obvious.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Rosie
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doug Smith" <al...@mindspring.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: Robert de Brewes (d. 1276)
> >
> >
Paul Mackenzie
""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:046d01c33d24$82316ca0$de00...@mshome.net...
Here are some references regarding this family. However, they do not show
who was the father of John.
BREOUSA OF SOMERSET AND DORSET
1297
Robert de Breousa
Returned from returned from the counties of Somerset and Dorset as holding
lands or rents to the amount of 20 pounds yearly value and upwards, either
in capite or otherwise, and as such summoned under general writ to perform
military service in person, with horses and arms &c in parts beyond the
seas - Muster at London, on Sunday next after the Octaves of St. John the
Baptist, 7 July 25 Edward 1
Parliamentary Writs & Military Summons - Palgraves 1:292 No 20
1297
Giles de Brewose returned from the counties of Somerset and Dorset as
holding lands or rents to the amount of 20 pounds yearly value and upwards,
either in capite or otherwise, and as such summoned under general writ to
perform military service in person, with horses and arms &c in parts beyond
the seas - Muster at London, on Sunday next after the Octaves of St. John
the Baptist, 7 July 25 Edward 1
Parliamentary Writs & Military Summons - Palgraves 1:290 No. 18
1300
Giles de Brewes, returned from the counties of Somerset and Dorset as
holding lands, either in capite or otherwise, to the value of 40 pounds
yearly and upwards and as such summoned under general writ to perform
military service against the Scots - Muster at Carlisle, on the navity of
St. John the Baptist, 24 June 28 Edward 1
Parliamentary Writs & Military Summons - Palgraves 1:335 No 19
1324
Robert de Breousa, Man-at-Arms returned by the sheriff of the county of
Somerset, pursuant to writ tested at Westminister, 9 May, as summoned by
general proclamation to attend the Great Council at Westminister, on
Wednesday next after Ascension day 30 May 17 Edward 11
Parliamentary Writs & Military Summons - Palgraves 2:589
1325
Joceus de Breousa alias de Brayhuse
Summoned, as from the counties of Somerset and Dorset, to pass into Guyenne
under the command of the Earl of Warrenne:- Muster at Portsmouth, on Sunday
next after Midlent, 24 March, he having also been previously required to
perform such service, by letters of privy seal..Writ tested at Westminister
20 Feb 18 Edward 11
Parliamentary Writs & Military Summons - Palgraves 2:589
Paul Mackenzie
""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:046d01c33d24$82316ca0$de00...@mshome.net...
Some more references.
ROBERT DE BREWES - of BASSETTERISINDON
1405
Release by Richard Eyr, of Lewe, to the abbot and convent Bruerne (de
Brueria), of his right in a messuage and land in Bassetterisindon, which he
had of the feoffment of Walter Hichecokes, clerk, which Paulinus de Tayden,
son of Henry de Tayden, long before the statue De Religiosis, had granted to
that house, and which John, a former abbot, predecessor to the then abbot,
had without the consent of the Chapter demised to Robert de Brewes, the
predecessor of the said Walter: (Glouc.
3 May, 6 Henry IV
E326/411
Paul Mackenzie
""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:046d01c33d24$82316ca0$de00...@mshome.net...
THEYDON MOUNT 5492 1992. 1334 Subsidy £25.44. See also VCH Essex, iv,
p. 277.
M
(Letter Close) Thurs; mercatum, gr 23 Sept 1225, by K Hen III to
Paulinus de Theyden (RLC, ii, p. 62). To be held at the manor.
M
(Charter) Thurs; gr 23 Jun 1239, by K Hen III to Robert de Briwes and
Beatrice his wife (CChR, 1226-57, p. 244).
F
(Charter) f, Michael (29 Sept); feria gr 23 Sept 1225, by K Hen III to
Paulinus de Theydon (RLC, ii, p. 62). To be held at the manor.
F
(Charter) vfm, Dedication of Mont St Michael (16 Oct); gr 23 Jun 1239,
by K Hen III to Robert de Briwes and Beatrice his wife (CChR, 1226-57, p.
244).
STAPLEFORD FITZPAINE 3263 1183. 1334 Subsidy £45.
M
(Charter) Tues; gr 23 Apr 1233, by K Hen III to Robert de Briwes (CChR,
1226-57, p. 177). To be held at the manor. Mandate to the sh of Somerset to
read the charter in full session of the county court and proclaim the market
and cause it to be held (CR, 1231-4, p. 212).
F
(Charter) vfm, Peter and Paul (29 Jun); gr 23 Apr 1233, by K Hen III to
Robert de Briwes (CChR, 1226-57, p. 177). To be held at the manor. Mandate
to the sh of Somerset to read the charter in full session of the county
court and proclaim the fair and cause it to be held (CR, 1231-4, p. 212).
Rosie Bevan
death, over his land holdings. It found that John de Brewes had enfeoffed
Thomas de Button, Archdeacon of Wells, with the manors of Staple and
Coriland. Afterwards Thomas had in turn enfeoffed John and his daughter
Beatrice and their heirs, in the manors. The marriage of Beatrice was given
to Robert Burnell, bishop of Bath and Wells, who married Beatrice to his
nephew Robert Burnell. Robert, the nephew, was 21 and over in 1292, and
Beatrice was 17 and they had a daughter. [Calendarium Genealogicum : Henry
II and Edward I , p. 460].
Whether the daughter and any other issue survived or not, by 1315 Staple had
passed to Robert fitz Payn, Steward of the King's Household. It remained
with the family until Isabella fitz Payn married Sir Richard Poynings
(d.1387), transferring the manor into that family [CP V 448-464].
Cheers
Rosie
Doug Thompson
> Thanks, Doug
>
> So this John would be a son on William de Braose d.1179 and Bertha of
> Gloucester?
Yes. He occurs as a witness in charters of William (II) de Ferrers, Earl of
Derby, where he is referred to as "Johanne de Braiosa, avunculo comitis".
This means he was a brother of Sibyl, mother of Earl William. Sibyl is known
to be Sibyl de Braose, daughter of William and Bertha.
Doug Thompson
Paul Mackenzie
Some more references confirming Hugh Nevill's marriage to Beatrice de Briwes
"Robert de Briwes to Hugh Nevill: Grant to him (with Beatrice his daugther
when she have married him) of the homage and service of Hugh Prilby and any
right that may come to him in respect of a tenement he held of him in
Horesby"
PRO DL 25/1650
On another point CP states the following, which seems incorrect.
"He [Hugh de Neville] m. Beatrice, da. of Robert DE BREWES (d. 1276) and h.
of her mother, Robert's 2nd wife, Beatrice, da. and h. of Paulinus DE TEYDEN
(by [? Beatrice,] da. and h. of Walter DE EVERMUE).(d)"
"(d) Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ii, nos. 32, 160; Close Rolls, 1234-37, p. 279
(where to Berte add [sic], and for Pauline read Paulini); 1242-47, p. 74;
1251-53, p. 334; Cal. Fine Rolls, vol. i, p. 7; B.M. Add. Chr. 8392; Duchy
of Lanc. Misc. 1/26, m. 4d."
(all the bracketed comments are CP's)
According to the Cal. inq. p.m. 32, 160, Beatrice was the daughter of
Walter. I am not sure where Paulinis de TEYDEN fits in the picture. Can
any one enlightment me.
Regards
Paul Mackenzie
Glass House Mountains
Queensland
Australia
Chris Phillips
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
> On another point CP states the following, which seems incorrect.
>
>
> "He [Hugh de Neville] m. Beatrice, da. of Robert DE BREWES (d. 1276) and
h.
> of her mother, Robert's 2nd wife, Beatrice, da. and h. of Paulinus DE
TEYDEN
> (by [? Beatrice,] da. and h. of Walter DE EVERMUE).(d)"
>
> "(d) Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ii, nos. 32, 160; Close Rolls, 1234-37, p. 279
> (where to Berte add [sic], and for Pauline read Paulini); 1242-47, p. 74;
> 1251-53, p. 334; Cal. Fine Rolls, vol. i, p. 7; B.M. Add. Chr. 8392; Duchy
> of Lanc. Misc. 1/26, m. 4d."
>
> (all the bracketed comments are CP's)
>
> According to the Cal. inq. p.m. 32, 160, Beatrice was the daughter of
> Walter. I am not sure where Paulinis de TEYDEN fits in the picture. Can
> any one enlightment me.
Yes, the inquisition post mortem on Walter de Evermuth, previously posted by
Rosie Bevan, isn't consistent with CP's scheme. I looked at some of CP's
other references yesterday to try to clarify it. They do seem to be
consistent with what CP says, so that inquisition appears to be in error.
In the first Close Roll entry cited - dated 18 June 1236 - with the
correction suggested - Robert's wife "Berta" is identified as the daughter
and heir of Paulinus de Teyden (without the correction she would have been
the daughter and heir of Paulina). Here Robert is doing homage for lands of
"Berta's" inheritance, custody of which the king had given to Walter de
Evermuth [Cal Close Rolls 1234-37, p. 279].
In the next entry - 8 November 1242 - Robert receives all the lands Walter
de Evermuth held in chief in Norfolk, as Robert he had married Beatrice,
Walter's "neptis" and heir [Cal Close Rolls 1242-47, p. 74].
In the third entry - 28 March 1253 - Robert is ordered to deliver his
daughter Beatrice, whose custody and marriage pertain to the king, to the
abbot of Pershore, the king's escheator, and the escheator is to deliver her
to Robert Wallerand, to whom the king has granted her custody and marriage
[Cal. Close Rolls 1251-53, p. 334].
So the inquisition post mortem on Walter took place about 30 years after his
death, and was presumably triggered by a dispute over Robert's holding in
Runham, after the death of Alice, Walter's widow. Robert held two thirds of
the manor by "courtesy of England", because he had had a daughter by
Beatrice, even though Beatrice the wife was dead, and Beatrice the daughter
had died without issue [Cal Fine Rolls vol. 1, p. 7 and the inquisition on
Walter]. After a lapse of 30 years, perhaps it's understandable that the
jurors were unclear about Beatrice's relationship to Walter, especially with
so many Beatrices involved.
That seems to provide the evidence for nearly everything said by CP
(although maybe it could be argued that the word "neptis" leaves some
ambiguity whether Beatrice was Walter's granddaughter or niece). I'm not
sure why CP gives the wife of Paulinus de Teyden as "[?]Beatrice", unless
it's based on speculation that the jurors were confused because Walter's
daughter was called Beatrice like all the other women involved.
As for Beatrice being Robert's second wife, he must have had a previous
wife, as from the inquisition posted by Rosie he left a son John aged 40 and
more after his death in 1276. Robert's wife Beatrice seems to have been
alive in 1242, but dead in 1253, so John' mother must have been an earlier,
not a later, wife.
Chris Phillips
Doug Thompson
c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk wrote on 29/6/03 12:54 pm:
> As for Beatrice being Robert's second wife, he must have had a previous
> wife, as from the inquisition posted by Rosie he left a son John aged 40 and
> more after his death in 1276. Robert's wife Beatrice seems to have been
> alive in 1242, but dead in 1253, so John' mother must have been an earlier,
> not a later, wife.
Also, in the IPM of Robert, posted by Rosie Bevan,
> Hurdecote. The messuage and 1 virgate of land, worth 4 marks yearly, of the
> land which was of Margery his wife, which she acquired before he married
> her, tenure unspecified.
So, if the IPM is accurate, here is his first wife, by name.
Doug Thompson
Paul Mackenzie
I found this reference at
http://hlsl.law.harvard.edu/bracton/Unframed/English/v4/338.htm
"With respect to what is said, that a parcener has betaken himself to
religion and so is civilly dead, it must be established by the bishop's
letters whether he may return to the world or not, according as he has
assumed the habit of probation or profession. On this matter may be found
[in the roll] of Trinity term in the fourth year of king Henry in the county
of Somerset,1 [the case] of John de Briwes.2 "
1. C.R.R., viii, 242-3 (Hil. 4); not in B.N.B.
2. Supra i, 421
I have noticed that the church seems to have an interest in these matters of
de Briwes, see
1. Inq. P. M. No. 160 on Robert de Briwes as compared to Inq. P. M. 194.
Also the religious body mentioned in Inq. P.M. No. 160 is Fecamps, which has
close associations with the de Braose.
2. PRO E 210/8622 states:
"Thomas de Bucton, Archdeacon of Wells (1263 - 1266) to Sir John de Brywes
and Beatrice his daughter: Demise of the manors of Staple
Fitzpaine(Staples), Curland (Curylonde), and Bickenhall, a virgate in Hele
in Orchard (Portman), 100s. rent in Broadway (Bradewya), the manor of
Wisley, a messuage and carucate in Hodnell (Hodenhulle), the manor of
Somborne, and a virgate in Risington, which he had from the said John: Som."
3.There was an inquiry made in 21 Edw I (1292), shortly after John de
Brewes'death, over his land holdings. It found that John de Brewes had
enfeoffed
Thomas de Button, Archdeacon of Wells, with the manors of Staple and
Coriland. Afterwards Thomas had in turn enfeoffed John and his daughter
Beatrice and their heirs, in the manors. The marriage of Beatrice was given
to Robert Burnell, bishop of Bath and Wells, who married Beatrice to his
nephew Robert Burnell. Robert, the nephew, was 21 and over in 1292, and
Beatrice was 17 and they had a daughter. [Calendarium Genealogicum : Henry
II and Edward I , p. 460].
{Rosie Bevan}
4. 1405. Release by Richard Eyr, of Lewe, to the abbot and convent Bruerne
(de Brueria), of his right in a messuage and land in Bassetterisindon, which
he
had of the feoffment of Walter Hichecokes, clerk, which Paulinus de Tayden,
son of Henry de Tayden, long before the statue De Religiosis, had granted to
that house, and which John, a former abbot, predecessor to the then abbot,
had without the consent of the Chapter demised to Robert de Brewes, the
predecessor of the said Walter: (Glouc.)3 May, 6 Henry IV E326/411.
One possibility is that John de Briwes' was part of the clergy, and this
matter went to court where he was considered civilly dead, hence the reason
for the two Inq. P. M. But which John de Briwes?. Also, I do not have
ready access to any libraries so I cannot check out the references 1.
C.R.R., viii, 242-3 (Hil. 4); not in B.N.B., 2. Supra i, 421. Moreover, I
do not know what the abbreviations stand for. Can any one help?.
Regards
Paul Mackenzie
Paul Mackenzie
"Paul Mackenzie" <paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:eCKLa.15$Rs6...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> Hi Rosie, Doug, Chris and others
>
> I found this reference at
> http://hlsl.law.harvard.edu/bracton/Unframed/English/v4/338.htm
>
> "With respect to what is said, that a parcener has betaken himself to
> religion and so is civilly dead, it must be established by the bishop's
> letters whether he may return to the world or not, according as he has
> assumed the habit of probation or profession. On this matter may be found
> [in the roll] of Trinity term in the fourth year of king Henry in the
county
> of Somerset,1 [the case] of John de Briwes.2 "
>
> 1. C.R.R., viii, 242-3 (Hil. 4); not in B.N.B.
>
> 2. Supra i, 421
>
>
> One possibility is that John de Briwes' was part of the clergy, and this
> matter went to court where he was considered civilly dead, hence the
reason
> for the two Inq. P. M. But which John de Briwes?. Also, I do not have
> ready access to any libraries so I cannot check out the references 1.
> C.R.R., viii, 242-3 (Hil. 4); not in B.N.B., 2. Supra i, 421. Moreover, I
> do not know what the abbreviations stand for. Can any one help?.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Mackenzie
My apologies I put in the wrong references. The correct references are:
1. 'Somersetiae'
2. C.R.R., viii, 388-90 (Easter 4); not in B.N.B.
Rosie Bevan
I think the records can be explained fairly reasonably in that for whatever
the reason, John II de Brewes had enfeoffed the Archdeacon of Wells
(consecrated bishop in 1267 and died 1274) with all of his lands, and the
latter had demised them back again. Technically the bishop of Bath and Wells
had then become the de Brewes' lord and that is why bishop Burnell, William
de Button's successor had the marriage of John's daughter.
The crown inquiry into John's enfeoffments came about because Staple was
held of the king in chief (whereas the other tenements had been held of
other people). It is possible that the main point of the additional inquiry
was to establish who was holding what from the king.
Please see more below
"Paul Mackenzie" <paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:eCKLa.15$Rs6...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> Hi Rosie, Doug, Chris and others
>
> I found this reference at
> http://hlsl.law.harvard.edu/bracton/Unframed/English/v4/338.htm
>
> "With respect to what is said, that a parcener has betaken himself to
> religion and so is civilly dead, it must be established by the bishop's
> letters whether he may return to the world or not, according as he has
> assumed the habit of probation or profession. On this matter may be found
> [in the roll] of Trinity term in the fourth year of king Henry in the
county
> of Somerset,1 [the case] of John de Briwes.2 "
>
> 1. C.R.R., viii, 242-3 (Hil. 4); not in B.N.B.
>
> 2. Supra i, 421
This item may relate to John's grandfather, John, who died in 1229. CCR viii
contains the Curia Regis Roll entries for 1219/1220. As John II died in
1292, I don't think there can be any doubt that this John de Brewes is a
different person.
>
> I have noticed that the church seems to have an interest in these matters
of
> de Briwes, see
>
> 1. Inq. P. M. No. 160 on Robert de Briwes as compared to Inq. P. M. 194.
> Also the religious body mentioned in Inq. P.M. No. 160 is Fecamps, which
has
> close associations with the de Braose.
This seems to relate to the late return by the sheriff of Gloucestershire,
which was with held by the bailiff of the abbott of Fecamp's liberty of
'Slouthtre', regarding Rissington Basset. This manor was held by Robert de
Brewes by courtesy of England, through his wife Beatrice de Teydon. Reading
this in conjunction with the 1405 release below, it looks as if the manor
was granted to the abbey of Bruerne, in Oxfordshire, by Paulinus de Teydon
(Beatrice' father), and John the abbott had enfeoffed Robert de Brewes
without consent of the chapter. I am wildly guessing the the abbey of
Bruerne was a cell of Fecamp and the bailiff of Fecamp was based in
'Slouthtre' (Upper or Lower Slaughter, Gloucs?) If anyone knows better
please sing out.
To recap on what we think we know
1.John de Brewes of Staple d.1229
2.Robert de Brewes of Staple d.1275
+ (1) Margery
3. John de Brewes of Staple b.c.1236, d.1292
+ Margery fl 1292
4.Beatrice de Brewes b.1275
+ Robert Burnel b.1271
5.Daughter Burnel fl 1292
+(2) Beatrice de Teydon
3.Beatrice de Brewes d.s.p.
+ Hugh de Neville d.s.p. 1269
Cheers
Rosie
Ken Knill
> He shows for the
> 1st wife of Robert de Brewes (d.1229) being Idonia (Mentioned Fine Roll,
> 13 Hem. III. 1229.
> 2nd wife being Beatrice, dau. and h. of Walter de Evermuth, and Alice.
> 3rd wife being Beatrice, dau. of Henry de Tayden
>
>
>
>
> I like more information Robert de Brewes (d.1229) mother according to
Elwes,
> Robert's mother was
> dau. or widow of Robert de Dunemede.
>
>
>
> Dave Knill...
Paul Mackenzie
"Ken Knill" <ke...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:be1eeo$fh3$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Dear Ken:
Can you post the full chart and references on this line according to Elwes?
It would be much appreciated. As you may have noticed from our earlier
postings the Robert de Brewes we were discussing died in 1276 and not 1229.
Is this a new Robert de Brewes?
Unfortunately I have no information on this Robert de Dunemede. I do not
have ready access to libraries. In a month's time I will being going to
Sydney, so I'll check then.
Regards
Paul
Rosie Bevan
Thank you for this additional piece of information.
From the discussion you have probably noticed that the pedigree has a few
errors, in that Robert did not die in 1229, that Beatrice was not daughter
of Walter de Evermuth, and that the second and third wives appear to have
been confounded. Also one of Robert's wives was called Margery (whom I
suspect may have been his widow).
The reference to the 1228 Fine Roll entry is interesting and it was probably
Idonia who was mother of John born before 1236.
Also interesting is the reference to Robert de Dunemede. I'd seen the entry
in the Calendarium Rotulorum Chartarum (p.10) of the confirmation made by
King John in 1200 to J. de Briwes of the custody of the lands and heirs of
Robert de Denemed' in Sussex and wondered whether they were connected.
Robert did not inherit any lands in Sussex according to the various
inquisitions post mortem.
Does Elwes accompany the chart with any other primary sources?
Cheers
Rosie