John Brooke, Lord Cobham - CP Corrections?
Brad Verity
son and heir John. Nor does it provide a date of death other than the
year - 1464 - for Edward.
There are writs of diem clausit extremum for Edward Brooke, Lord
Cobham.
From Fine Rolls: "7 July 1464, Pontefract. Edward Broke of Cobham,
knight; Somerset and Dorset; Devon; Kent; Oxford; London (Mathew
Philype, mayor and escheator."
"17 Oct. 1464. Edward Broke of Cobham, knight; Norfolk and Suffolk."
Edward probably died in June 1464. His son and heir John Brooke was a
minor in 1464, and did not receive his inheritance until 1471, meaning
he was probably born in 1450.
From Patent Rolls: "10 Dec. 1467, Windsor. Grant, for 1,000 marks
paid to the king, to the king's uncle Edward Neville, knight, and his
executors and assigns of the custody of all castles, lordships,
manors, lands, rents, reversions, services and other possessions of
Edward Broke, knight, lord of Cobham, deceased, during the minority of
John, his son and heir, with the custody and marriage of the heir
without disparagement, and so from heir to heir, finding a competent
sustenance for the heir and supporting all charges. By p.s."
CP says John Brooke was married first to Eleanor, daughter of "( --- )
AUSTELL, of Suffolk" who dsp. Margaret, his second wife, was the
daughter of Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny. Victorian antiquarian W.
H. Hamilton Rogers's two-part 1898-99 Brooke family articles in
'Proceedings of the Somersetshire Archaeological and Natural History
Society' are CP's source for John Brooke's first marriage. But Rogers
doesn't cite any sources for this marriage in his articles, and my
guess is it is a mistake (there were other John Brookes alive in the
latter 15th-century). Brooke was unmarried in 1467 when he was age 17
or so, and Lord Abergavenny would certainly not have first married him
off to an obscure Suffolk lass over his own daughter.
Rogers makes Margaret Nevill, wife of John, Lord Cobham, the daughter
of Lord Abergavenny by his first wife Elizabeth Beauchamp, citing the
memorial brass of the couple in Cobham Church as his source. "This
descent explains the impalement of the shields on the brass, namely
Cobham, impaling Nevill, Warren, Clare, Despenser, and Beauchamp, with
a crescent for difference." CP differs from Rogers and makes
Katherine Howard the mother of Margaret, Lady Cobham, but cites no
source. As Margaret and John Brooke are mentioned in the Howard
Household books, CP is probably correct in making her daughter of
Katherine, not Elizabeth, and thus niece of the 1st Duke of Norfolk.
From Patent Rolls: "24 Oct. 1471, Westminster. Licence for John
Broke, son and heir of Edward Broke, knight, deceased, tenant in
chief, to enter freely into all castles, lordships, manors, lands,
reversions, rents, services, fees, views of frank-pledge, courts leet,
knights' fees, advowsons and other possessions in England and Calais
of which his father was seised in demesne and which should descend to
him. By p.s."
It's curious there's no mention of John having had to proof his age to
the escheator, or swear fealty, in the above entry. But there's no
mention of him being still under-age either, so he was probably age 21
that year and born in 1450.
Rogers does not mention any children for Edward Brooke other than the
son and heir. PA gives him a daughter Elizabeth Brooke (d. 1525),
wife of Robert Tanfield, of Gayton, co. Northampton.
It is apparently this alleged daughter Elizabeth Tanfield that made
the newsgroup conclude back in 2000, that Elizabeth Audley, wife of
Edward Brooke, was the daughter of James, Lord Audley, by his first
wife Margaret de Ros, rather than by his second wife, Eleanor Holland
(which is what CP says). The argument being that Elizabeth Audley had
her daughter Elizabeth immediately after her 1437 marriage to Edward
Brooke. But the son and heir was not born until 1450, so what is the
chronological evidence for Elizabeth Tanfield, daughter of Edward
Brooke and Elizabeth Audley?
Thanks and Cheers, ------Brad
Nathaniel Taylor
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote:
> CP provides no birthdates for Edward Brooke, Lord Cobham, or for his
> son and heir John. Nor does it provide a date of death other than the
> year - 1464 - for Edward...
Seeing this post for an instant I wondered why these Cobhams were so
familiar, but I just remembered what I had been reading only the other
day. Everyone who is interested in this family should know about the
magnificent Cobham brasses, and about the recent book which discusses
the in the (pretty full, for a study of this type) context of the
extended Cobham families and their burial/commemoration practices:
Nigel Saul, _Death, art & Memory in Medieval England: The Cobham Family
and their Monuments, 1300-1500_ (Oxford, 2001).
This gives no dense presentation of CP-level annotated genealogical
detail, but there is a strong overview of the family, its various
branches, and connections by marriage. The Cobham brasses (in two
principal churches, with others scattered about as well) are said to
leave the most significant surviving family group of brasses in Britain.
Googling 'cobham brasses' gets the EHR review of Saul's book, plus links
to images at the Monumental Brass Society or the Gothic Eye site, listed
via Chris Phillips' excellent pages.
Nat Taylor
Douglas Richardson
The Chancery suit abstracted below indicates that the subject of your
post, John Brooke, Lord Cobham (died 1512), left a will.
C 1/621/1
Date: 1529-1532
"Edward Cobham, knight, younger son of John Broke, Lord Cobham. v.
Richard Walden, knight, and Mary, his wife, late the wife of Robert
Blagge, Baron of the Exchequer.: Annuity charged by the will of
complainant's father on Lufton manor, and duly paid by Thomas, late
Lord Cobham, complainant's brother, but not since his death, the
premises being claimed as bought of him by the said Robert, who
devised the same to the said Mary for life." END OF QUOTE
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 346-347 has a good account of John Brooke,
Lord Cobham (died 1512). No mention is made of his will, however. So
the fact that John Brooke died testate would be another addition for
Complete Peerage.
John Brooke's mother, Elizabeth Audley (otherwise Tuchet), was clearly
the daughter of James Audley (otherwise Tuchet), by his 1st wife,
Margaret de Roos, as I stated back in 2002. Chris Phillips discusses
the matter on his website at the following web address:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/cobhamofkent.shtml
Among other evidences, Elizabeth's parentage is confirmed by Audley
family pedigree found in the 1532 Visitation of Norfolk, which
information was posted by Ronny Bodine (see copy of his post below).
Special thanks go to Ronny for his thoughtfulness in posting this
information.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
From: rbodi...@aol.com (RBodine996)
Subject: Re: Who is Elizabeth Audley's mother?
Date: 2000/04/18
Message-ID: <20000418083930...@ng-bh1.aol.com>#1/1
References: <009601bfa838$726638c0$1e453bcb@leo>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
I stepped into this a bit late and perhaps missed something, but
rifling
through my files the date of 1563 turns up the pedigree of Awdeley
from the
Visitation of Norfolk (Harleian Society, vol. 32, p. 10) wherein the
children
of James Toochett, Lord Audeley by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos were-
1. John Tochet, Lord Audeley.
2. Margaret, m. Sir Thomas Dutton.
3. Ann, m. Edward, Lord Cobham. **
By his 2nd wife, Eleanor, dau. of Edmund, Earl of Kent, he had-
4. Margaret, Lady Powes.
5. Ann, m. Richard Delabere.
6. Sir Humphrey Audeley.
7. Edmond, Bishop of Salisbury.
8. Thomas.
** The Complete Peerage does name the wife of Edward Brooke, 6th Lord
Cobham,
as being Elizabeth, dau. of James Tuchet by his 2nd wife, Eleanor
Holland.
Sir Richard Hoare in his The History of Modern Wiltshire, vol. 1, part
2, p.
227, also includes Elizabeth, wife of Edward Brooke, as a daughter of
the 2nd
wife.
Ronny Bodine
Carole Child
Just as a comment on this - living in the next parish to Cobham, I've
grown up always knowing the Cobham family brasses, so did not really
realise just how important they are. It's enough to make you weep when
you visit other churches and see the indented stones where the lattens
once were - just taken up and sold for scrap .....
Regards Carole Child
Brad Verity
> The Chancery suit abstracted below indicates that the subject of your
> post, John Brooke, Lord Cobham (died 1512), left a will.
> Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 346-347 has a good account of John Brooke,
> Lord Cobham (died 1512).
I wouldn't call CP's account "good". Subsequent research into the
families holding the Cobham title has shown that CP's account is
lacking, to say the least.
> No mention is made of his will, however. So
> the fact that John Brooke died testate would be another addition for
> Complete Peerage.
Great. Have you found this will? Has it survived?
> John Brooke's mother, Elizabeth Audley (otherwise Tuchet), was clearly
> the daughter of James Audley (otherwise Tuchet), by his 1st wife,
> Margaret de Roos, as I stated back in 2002.
"Clearly"? How so?
> Chris Phillips discusses
> the matter on his website at the following web address:
>
> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/cobhamofkent.shtml
Here is what Chris says. Note that Chris does not say "clearly" - he
says "appears to have been", and cites you as the source:
"In November 1436 it was agreed that Edward and Elizabeth would be
married by 2 February 1436/7 [Calendar of Close Rolls, 1435-41, p.
101]. Therefore, Elizabeth appears to have been the daughter of James
Tuchet, not by his 2nd wife, Eleanor (whose marriage had not been
consummated by 14 February 1429/30), but by his 1st wife, Margaret
Roos [see Complete Peerage, vol. 1, p. 341]. This is the parentage
indicated by a later visitation pedigree [Harleian Society, vol. 32,
p. 10; from Harleian MS 1552, a composite version from the visitations
of Norfolk, 1563, 1589, and 1613].
"(Complete Peerage, volume 14, corrects the account of Audley, making
James Tuchet's 2nd wife, Eleanor, the illegitimate daughter of Edmund
(de Holland), 4th Earl of Kent, by Constance, widow of Thomas (Le
Despencer), Earl of Gloucester, and daughter of Edmund (of Langley),
1st Duke of York. See further details at vol.4, p.281, note d
(Despenser) and vol.7, p.161, note h (Kent).)
"[The chronological and pedigree evidence was provided by Douglas
Richardson in July 2002.]"
> Among other evidences,
What other evidences?
> Elizabeth's parentage is confirmed by Audley
> family pedigree found in the 1532[sic] Visitation of Norfolk,
No, look at Chris's website passage again. It is not the actual 1532
[sic, for 1563] Visitation of Norfolk. Chris says it is "Harleian
Society, vol. 32, p. 10; from Harleian MS 1552, a composite version
from the visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589, and 1613". So, as Tim
Powys-Lybbe has pointed out regarding another Visitation pedigree that
is a key piece of evidence for your Stradling-Dennis line, we don't
know what the family member originally told the herald, or what the
herald wrote down. What we have is a manuscript composite that
someone made, supposedly from the original Visitations.
> which
> information was posted by Ronny Bodine (see copy of his post below).
> Special thanks go to Ronny for his thoughtfulness in posting this
> information.
Yes, thank you, Ronny.
> I stepped into this a bit late and perhaps missed something, but
> rifling
> through my files the date of 1563 turns up the pedigree of Awdeley
> from the
> Visitation of Norfolk (Harleian Society, vol. 32, p. 10) wherein the
> children
> of James Toochett, Lord Audeley by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos were-
> 1. John Tochet, Lord Audeley.
> 2. Margaret, m. Sir Thomas Dutton.
> 3. Ann, m. Edward, Lord Cobham. **
The first names of the daughters are wrong. Have you (Douglas, not
Ronny, since it is you, Douglas, who is publishing the revised
maternity of Elizabeth, wife of Edward Brooke, Lord Cobham), checked
the chronology of these three Audleys? When was John, Lord Audley,
married? When was 'Margaret' (actually, IIRC, her name was 'Anne')
married to Sir Thomas Dutton? Does it fall in line with the 1437
marriage date for Elizabeth Audley to Edward Brooke?
> By his 2nd wife, Eleanor, dau. of Edmund, Earl of Kent, he had-
>
> 4. Margaret, Lady Powes.
> 5. Ann, m. Richard Delabere.
> 6. Sir Humphrey Audeley.
> 7. Edmond, Bishop of Salisbury.
> 8. Thomas.
And what about the chronology for these Audleys? Do we have an
estimated marriage date for Sir Humphrey Audley? How about for his
sisters?
> Sir Richard Hoare in his The History of Modern Wiltshire, vol. 1, part
> 2, p.
> 227, also includes Elizabeth, wife of Edward Brooke, as a daughter of
> the 2nd
> wife.
And here is a work that, like CP, makes Edward Broke's wife the
daughter of Lord Audley's second wife. This doesn't support your
argument.
So, from manuscript evidence, supposedly taken from Visitation
statements made 100-150 years after Edward Brooke, Lord Cobham, died,
you have determined that the mother of his wife Elizabeth was the
first, not the second, wife of James, Lord Audley, even though the
only recorded son of Lord Cobham was not born until 1450, 13 years
after the 1437 marriage of the alleged post-puberty bride?
Cheers, -----Brad
Chris Phillips
> So, from manuscript evidence, supposedly taken from Visitation
> statements made 100-150 years after Edward Brooke, Lord Cobham, died,
> you have determined that the mother of his wife Elizabeth was the
> first, not the second, wife of James, Lord Audley, even though the
> only recorded son of Lord Cobham was not born until 1450, 13 years
> after the 1437 marriage of the alleged post-puberty bride?
Being sceptical about the value of visitation pedigrees in general, I agree
the visitation evidence isn't worth much.
But from the contemporary evidence, if Elizabeth was a daughter of James's
second wife, she could have been only about 6 at the date agreed for her
marriage. As far as I understand, she shouldn't really have been betrothed
at such an early age, let alone married.
One odd thing is that, according to my notes, the source cited by CP for
Elizabeth's parentage - "The Genealogist, N.S., vol. xxviii, part 1, p.
62" - actually says she was the daughter of James's first wife, not his
second.
Chris Phillips