Re: Alice -- wife of John Hoar(e)
fc...@charm.net
I have my doubts about the existence of Alice Lisle as a daughter of
John Lisle and Alicia Beconshaw, but I am certainly not an expert on
the subject.
> The problem with this argument is threefold:
> first, Bridget Lisle was born in 1632, 4+ years before the suggested
> marriage date
I have seen the claim that she was born about 1632 which I doubt. If
you have any documentation for that date, please share it. If she were
born in 1632, she would have given birth to her only two children at
age 38 and 41, and lived until 91. I more inclined to believe that she
is the Bridget (dau of John and Alicia) christened in Putney on 29 Sep
1645, a period when John Lisle was frequently in London.
> two, 4 children of John Lisle & Lady Alice (including
> young Alice) were christened by 1636
Again if you have actual christening records, I would love to see them.
> finally, records indicate
> the Lisle's had 12 children by early 1648, translating into a 12
> children in 12 years if we use 1636 as the marriage year - bordering
> on the impossible.
Which children are born before 1648? Alicia Beconshaw was born about
1614 according to DNB, which is consistent wit her age at execution.
The date could be later but certainly not earlier. Her will dated 1682
(proved 1689) mentions a daughter Anne under 21 (born after 1661?).
There is no mention of a daughter Alice.
The will of Alice Lisle as transcribed in NEHGS Vol. 39 p.65 1885:
ALICIA LISLE of Moyles Court in the County of Southampton, widow, 9
June, 1682, with codicil of same date, proved 11November, 1689. To the
poor of the parish of Ellingham two pounds within one year after my
decease. I have settled upon Thomas Tipping of Wheatfield in the
County of Oxford, Esq. and Christopher Warman of Milborne Weekes in the
County of Somerset, gentleman, their heirs and assigns, the reversion
and inheritance of the moiety of the manor of Moyles Court, alias
Rockford Moyles and over-Burgatt and several other manors, lands,
tenements and hereditaments in the said County of Southampton and in
the County of Dorset and elsewhere, mentioned in an indenture
tripartite, dated 19 Feb. 1678, to be conveyed to William Tipping,
Esq., for five hundred years, who hath since conveyed and assigned over
his interest, &c. to the said Thomas Tipping and Christopher Warman;
which said conveyance is in trust for the payment of certain debts in a
schedule thereunto annexed, &c. &c. The overplus (after payment of
such debts) to my worthy friends, the said William Tipping and Mrs.
Frances Tipping his sister, Richard Lloyd, citizen and linen-draper of
London, and Triphena his wife, to hold forever upon this especial
trust, &c. to discharge my funeral expenses and pay debts, &c, and to
pay unto my daughter Anne twelve hundred pounds at the age of one and
twenty years or day of marriage, to pay unto my grandaughter -------
Hore, daughter of my daughter Bridgett, now in New England, the sum of
one hundred pounds at age one and twenty or day of marriage, to pay
unto my daughter Mary an annuity or yearly of six pounds during her
natural life, but if said daughter Mary marry against their consent
said annuity shall cease, to pay to daughter Mabella Lisle an annuity
of forty pounds (under same conditions). The residue to be distributed
among my daughters' children as they (the trustees) shall think fit.
To cousin Judah Rie ten pounds within two years after my decease. To
William Carpenter, my servant, thirty pounds (in two years). In the
codicil she bequeaths to daughter Margaret, now the wife of Mr.
Whitaker, seventy pounds (in two years). Witnesses Anne Tipping,
William Withrington, John Swan and Abiah Browne.
Ent. 159
Even if there were such a daughter Alice born bef 1632 how would she
have married John Hoar. He immigrated from England about 1640 with his
mother. The Hoars were from Gloucestershire. He was bearing arms in
Scituate by 1643. How would he have met a daughter of John Lisle and
married her. His brother Leonard graduated from Harvard in 1650 and
then went to England in 1653 where he became involved with at least one
regicide. He preached two Sermons at the death of Sir Henry Mildmay's
wife. So it seems that the Hoars and the Lisles don't become connected
until the end of the 1650's at the earliest by which time John Hoar and
his wife Alice have already had their children. I think you might have
better luck with the identity of Alice if you look into the families
that were associated with the Hoars, the Quincys, Hincksmans and
possibly the Sewalls.
Good Luck,
Fred Chalfant
al...@mindspring.com
>[snip]
Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would appear
that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
John Hoar is alleged to have been brother of the Leonard Hoar who
became President of Harvard. Leonard's wife is alleged to have been
Bridget Lisle.
Doug
fc...@charm.net
al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Not an expert on this family, but based on this will it would appear
> that the Alice married to John Hoar was daughter of Bridget and
> grandaughter of the Alice who wrothe the will.
>
>
> Doug Smith
That is not the case for three obvious reasons.
1. Bridget [Lisle] Hoar's two children were named Bridget and
Tryphena(d.y.) Bridget is known to have married Rev. Thomas Cotton
2. Bridget's children were born in the 1670's and Alice wife of John
Hoar was bearing children about 1650 (or earlier) and thus must have
been born before about 1630.
3. Besides the impossibilty of the dates he would have been marrying
his niece.
Fred
fc...@charm.net
Cotton family. It has some valid information information, but also
some egregious errors.Things come into focus if one realizes that #1
and # 2 are the same person.
Leonard Cotton (b. abt 1690 son of Rev Thomas Cotton and Bridget Hoar)
married Hanna ------ (note this is the only name for his spouse as
listed in Hampton Falls and Newbury V.R. the idea. The idea that he
married a daughter of John Lisle is absurd, see Savage Vol 2.
pp431-432). Whether he married secondly a Mary Freeze is up in the air.
The evidence is lacking. Apparently Hannah was the mother of all of his
children:
1. Thomas Cotton (b. Mar 15, 1724 Hampton Falls, New Hampshire d. Dec
29, 1781 Lewiston, Maine) m. Nov 5, 1757 Brunswick, Maine, Agnes Smith
(widow of Isaac Hinckley) NOTE: His 2Ggrandson was Joseph Potter
Cotton, Assistant Secretary of State and close confidant of Herbert
Hoover.
2. Leonard Lisle Cotton bap. Jul 3, 1726, Newbury, Massachusetts,
married June 10, 1749, Rochester, Massachusetts, Nema Coombs.
3. John Cotton bap. Dec 24, 1727, Manchester, Massachsetts. He was the
Loyalist.
4. Bridgert Hannah Cotton bap. May 2, 1731, Ipswich Massachusetts, m.
Sep 17, 1747, Brunswick, Maine, Samuel Coombs.
5. Benjamin Cotton bap. Apr 2, 1732, Ipswich, Massachusetts, apparently
died young.
6. Jacob Cotton bap. Apr 2, 1732, Ipswich, Massachusetts
7. Benjamin Cotton bap. Sept.1, 1734, Ipswich, Massachusetts
8. Dorothy Cotton b. Dec. 18, 1736, Newbury, Massachusetts
9. James Cotton b. Aug. 3, 1739, Newbury, Massachusetts
10. Mary Cotton bap. Oct. 31, 1742 Newbury, Massachusetts
11. Alicia Cotton bap Feb. 17, 1744-5 Newbury, Massachusetts
It might have been more helpful if you had quoted all of the article in
NEHGR Vol 4 p92 1850
Apparently this descent was compiled by an unnamed British officier in
Maine in 1766 and presented to John Cotton. As there is no original we
can't even determine whether the account was incorrect or whether it
was the trancription that was wrong or even if it had been trancribed
more than once.
Fred
starbuck95 wrote:
> NEHGR, 4:92:
>
> No. 1---Leonard Cotton, Gentlemen [sic], son of Reverend Thomas
Cotton,
> married Alicia [sic] Lisle, the daughter of Lord John Lisle [sic],
> aforesaid. His son
>
> No. 2---Leonard Cotton, Jr., married Mary Freeze, and settled in
> Newburyport, Mass., whence, in the time of the Indian Wars, he
removed
> to Virginia with the younger portion of his family. The posterity of
> his sons Jacob, Benjamin and James, are still found in Virginia and
> North Carolina."
> His elders sons,
> No. 3---"Thomas of Brunswick and
> No. 4--John of Litchfield lived and died in Maine.
> No. 4--John, born 1727, died 1824, left no sons.
> No. 3---Thomas Cotton, of Brunswick, married the widow of Isaac
> Hinckley, who was killed by the Indians, and whose maiden name was
> Smith, of York [Maine].
> Children.
> No. 1---Mary, married Stephen Pennel of Topsham.
> No. 2---Martha, married Joel Thompson, Esq., of Lewiston.
> No. 3---Sarah, died young.
> No. 4---Ruth, died young.
> No. 5---Isaac married Elizabeth Sylvester; Sons Isaac,
Sylvester,
> Thomas.
fc...@charm.net
RD 600
starbuck95 wrote:
> This daughter, Bridget (Hoar) Cotton, may have American descendants.
> See NEHGR, 39:64, where her son, Leonard Cotton, is shown as "eldest
> son, settled in America," and himself the father of "Colonel Cotton,
an
> American Loyalist." Would Leonard Cotton be a 'new' immigrant for
> Gary's lists?
fc...@charm.net
for the Cotton information.
I agree with you that there isn't anything of much value that you
didn't quote. I was just concerned that someone who might not have read
the entire entry might not know the origin of it.
Again no offence intended.
Fred
starbuck95 wrote:
> >>This one piece in NEHGR has probably caused the most confusion for
> the Cotton family. It has some valid information information, but
also
> some egregious errors. Things come into focus if one realizes that #1
> and # 2 are the same person.
>
> I don't find the errors all that 'egregious,' just typical for a
> document written much after the event (we should try to be at least a
> little sophisticated in our analyses).
>
> >>It might have been more helpful if you had quoted all of the
article
> in NEHGR Vol 4 p92 1850.
>
> No need to get snippy. I don't think I left out anything of much
> value.
>
> You might have said 'thank you' for my pointing out some new
ancestors
> for you in the _Oxford Dictionary of National Biography_ accounts of
> the Cotton and Spencer families!
al...@mindspring.com
Yes,
I have looked into this family now. See CP V: 622 and Vistation of
Hants.
It would appears that Sir John Lisle had a first wife named Elizabeth
Hobart. They were married abt Feb 1631/2 with one son, William.
Elizabeth died 15 Mar 1633. Sir John married 2nd 23 Oct 1636 Alice
Beconshaw with six daughters, Bridget, Triphena, Margaret, Anne, Mary
and Mabel. I see no Alice by either marriage.
I have not found any evidence that the Alice married to John Hoar was a
Lisle.
Doug Smith