the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai

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John P. Ravilious

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Jan 4, 2007, 3:40:25 PM1/4/07
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Dear Peter, Leo, et al.,

While currently reading through notes from Vanderkindere's
edition of Gislebert de Mons (not a short-term project), I noted the
following chart which is largely supported by the documents and notes
I have read thus far [1]:

Wéry le Sor (le Roux), épouse l'héritière de Chièvres.
I
Wéry le Barbu.
________I__________________
I I
Thierry d'Avesnes, Ida, épouse Fastré 1er,
+ vers 1106. avoué de Tournai,
+ avant 1092.
_________________I____________
I I
Gossuin d'Oisy, Fastré II, avoué de Tournai,
seigneur d'Avesnes + apres llll.
a la mort de son oncle Thierry. I
I
I
Gautier Ier Pulechel, avoué de Tournai,
épouse la fille d'Evrard Radou 1er,
châtelain de Tournai, + 1147.
_________________________________I__
I I
Thierry, + jeune. Nicolas,
épouse Mathilde de Laroche,
+ apres 1169.
_________________________________I___
I I
Jacques, + 1191, Ida,
épouse Adelvie de Guise. épouse Guillaume IV,
châtelain de Saint-Omer.

My own notes and the entries I've seen in Genealogics takes this
record from Fastré I onward, but I had not seen the identification of
his wife and her brief ancestry previously. The marriage of Nicholas
d'Avesnes to Maud/Matilda de la Roche is probably the earliest
important marriage of the family from a traditional genealogical
perspective, as this brings in the Carolingian and other ancestry of
the Counts of Namur. The descent from Jacques d'Avesnes on down is
rather well known, esp. as regards his younger son Burchard's
marriage to Margaret of Flanders and all that was engendered there
(Philippa of Hainaut, Edward III of England's queen, &c, &c.).

If there is any correction to the above, or any linkage to any
further ancestry (auspicious or otherwise), that information would be
greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES:

[1] Leon Vanderkindere, ed., La Chronique de Gislebert de Mons
(Bruxelles: Libraire Kiessling et C'ie, 1904), p. 76, note (1).


=======================================


Descendants of Fastré I, advocatus of Tournai


1 Fastré d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1092[1]
Occ: advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]

Spouse: Ida d'Avesnes [2]

Children: Fastre II (->1111)


1.1 Fastré II d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1111[1]
Occ: advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]

Spouse: Richilda[1]

Children: Wautier I (-1147)


1.1.1 Wautier I d'Oisy
----------------------------------------
Death: 1147[2],[1]
Occ: lord of Avesnes, Conde and Leuze
advocatus of Tournai [Vogt of Doornik]


' Walter le beau ', lord of Avesnes [ "Walterus dominus de Avethnis,
agnomine Pelukels " - Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense,
43 (p. 75)[2]]

Spouse: Ada of Tournai
Father: Everard I, châtelain of Tournai

Children: Nicholas (-~1170)
Everard (-1190)
Thierry


1.1.1.1 Nicholas of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: abt 1170[1]
Occ: lord of Avesnes

lord of Avesnes

Walter of Avesnes was succeeded by his son Nicholas:
' Waltero predicto succesit Nicholaus filius ejus, homo pacificus et
discretus;...
Ille Nicholaus uxorem habuit Mathildem, filiam Henrici comitis de
Rocha in Ardenna, patrui sepedicti Henrici comitis Namurcensis, et
Alidis comitisse Hanoniensis,... ' [Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon
Hanoniense, 43 (pp. 76-77)[2]]


Spouse: Mahaut de la Roche[1]
Father: Henri, comte de la Roche (-1138)
Mother: Mahaut of Limburg

Children: Jacques (-1191)
Fastré


1.1.1.1.1 Jacques of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: 7 Sep 1191, Battle of Arsuf, Palestine[3]
Occ: lord of Avesnes

leader of the Flemish troops, 3rd Crusade
commander of the Flemish contingent at the Battle of Arsuf,
7 Sept 1191 (slain)[4]


cf. Gislebert of Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, 43 (p. 77)[2]]


Spouse: Adela de Guise[1]
Death: 1207[5]
Father: Bouchard, seigneur de Guise (-?1166)
Mother: Alix

Children: Wautier II (-ca1246), m. Margaret of Blois
Jacques
Guillaume (-1219)
Burchard (-1244),
Mahaut
Alix
Ida
Ada


1.1.1.1.1.1 Burchard of Avesnes
----------------------------------------
Death: 1244[1]

4th son (named for maternal grandfather)
cleric, canon of St. Pierre of Lille and archdeacon of Laon;
left the church.

Knight, of Avesnes; divorced 1221 (consanguinity)

1st husband of Margaret of Flanders

Spouse: Margaret of Flanders
Birth: 2 Jun 1202[1]
Death: 10 Feb 1280
Father: Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut
(Latin) Emperor of Constantinople (1171-1205)
Mother: Marie of Champagne (ca1173-1204)
Marr: bef 23 Jul 1212[1]

Children: John d'Avesnes, count of Hainaut(1218-1257)


1. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Flanders and Hainault," Paul
Theroff's Dynastic Genealogy Files,
http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/
2. Leon Vanderkindere, ed., "La Chronique de Gislebert de Mons,"
Bruxelles: Libraire Kiessling et C'ie, 1904,
courtesy Googlebooks.
3. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
4. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
5. Mike Talbot, "de Guise," Feb 6, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.

* John P. Ravilious

Leo van de Pas

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Jan 4, 2007, 4:10:50 PM1/4/07
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Dear John,

I hoped Warlop would have something, but nothing there. You say you had not
seen previously the identification of Fastre I d'Oisy's wife as a Avesnes,
but on genealogics she is recorded as Ade (d'Avesnes). My source is
Schwennicke volume III/1 Tafel 50. Here she is recorded as daughter of
(Wedric II).

The interesting part is that as sources is given :
Leon Vanderkindere, Le Chronique de Gislebert de Mons, 2nd edition 1904
Eberhard Winkhaus, Ahnen zu Karl Dem Grossen und Widukind
Dek, the Counts of Holland
and several more, I stop quoting here because I do have Dr. AWE Dek on the
Counts of Holland.

The chapter on the House of Avesnes starts with

Fastre d'Oisy, voogd van Doornik, end 11th or beginning 12th century,
married Ada or Ida, daughter of Wedric II, Lord of Avesnes, who died about
1076.

Fastre has a footnote, which seems tantalising, S. A. Waller Zeper, Jan van
Henegouwen, heer van Beaumont, The Hague 1914, Tafel 1
would love to see that tafel.

Sorry that I could not be of more help.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia.

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Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: the house of Avesnes, and the advocates of Tournai

WJho...@aol.com

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In a message dated 1/4/07 12:37:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< The descent from Jacques d'Avesnes on down is
rather well known, esp. as regards his younger son Burchard's
marriage to Margaret of Flanders and all that was engendered there
(Philippa of Hainaut, Edward III of England's queen, &c, &c.). >>

This also goes down via his brother Walter (d Jan 1243/4) to all sorts of
interesting people through the Counts of St Pol and then on into the Widville
family and then everyone.

Will Johnson

WJho...@aol.com

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Jan 5, 2007, 12:00:09 AM1/5/07
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In a message dated 1/4/07 12:37:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Spouse: Margaret of Flanders
Birth: 2 Jun 1202[1]
Death: 10 Feb 1280
Father: Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders and Hainaut
(Latin) Emperor of Constantinople (1171-1205)
Mother: Marie of Champagne (ca1173-1204)
Marr: bef 23 Jul 1212[1]

Children: John d'Avesnes, count of Hainaut(1218-1257) >>


But but.... also children Baudoin d'Avesnes Sire of Beaumont b Sep 1219 ?
He m Felicite de Coucy and had Beatrice d'Avesnes

Beatrice m Henry IV Count of Luxembourg and had Henry VII, the Holy Roman
Emperor

yes? no?

Thanks
Will

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