Theophano, wife of Otto II of Germany
Becky Pyle
II of Germany in 972? Ancestral Roots (7th edition) says her father was Leo
Phokas. But I've just found an article in The Genealogist (Vol. 2, #1 -
1981) by Lindsay L. Brook that says she might be the daughter of Romanus II
and his 2nd wife Theophana (Anastasa) whom he married in 956.
Was she the mother of Otto's daughter, Matilda of Saxony? Any help will be
appreciated - thank you!
I've been following the discussion about Latin with interest. My mother
insisted that I take it in high school. While I probably couldn't read a
whole document any more, I have never ever regretted taking it. I wish they
still offered it in our area high schools.
Becky Kenton Pyle be...@foryou.net
Urbana, OH
D. Spencer Hines
Your Mother Is Smart. You, Of Course, Already Know That.
Latin, Mathematics, Genealogy and Mozart Will All Make Anyone Smarter.
: )
That Governor in Georgia Understands *Part* of the Equation.
All Four Are Better --- But This Is A Menu. <g>
DSH
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D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates
and chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, ---
while every able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the
ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]
Becky Pyle wrote in message
<3.0.5.32.1998123...@pop.foryou.net>...
Jared L Olar
>Who were the parents of Theophana (born 956-8, died 991) who married
Otto
>II of Germany in 972? Ancestral Roots (7th edition) says her father was
Leo
>Phokas. But I've just found an article in The Genealogist (Vol. 2, #1 -
1981) by Lindsay
>L. Brook that says she might be the daughter of Romanus II and his 2nd
wife >Theophana (Anastasa) whom he married in 956.
>
>Was she the mother of Otto's daughter, Matilda of Saxony? Any help will
be
>appreciated - thank you!
The late Sir Anthony Richard Wagner has a relevant endnote in his book
_Pedigree and Progress_. In that book Wagner accepted the Romanus II
scenario, and Prince Toumanoff gave reasons in favor of it. I join
Wagner and Toumanoff here.
I do not have my sources at hand, but as I recall Otto's daughter Matilda
married Edzo of Lorraine, and from their daughter numerous descents are
traceable. Edzo's wife was indeed the daughter of Theophano.
Others here doubtless can fill you in more extensively, especially on the
Phocas scenario.
Jared Olar
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sk...@ix.netcom.com
>On 30 Dec 1998 16:12:02 -0800 be...@foryou.net (Becky Pyle) writes:
>>Who were the parents of Theophana (born 956-8, died 991) who married
>Otto
>>II of Germany in 972? Ancestral Roots (7th edition) says her father was
>Leo
>>Phokas. But I've just found an article in The Genealogist (Vol. 2, #1 -
>1981) by Lindsay
>>L. Brook that says she might be the daughter of Romanus II and his 2nd
>wife >Theophana (Anastasa) whom he married in 956.
>>
>>Was she the mother of Otto's daughter, Matilda of Saxony? Any help will
>be
>>appreciated - thank you!
>
>The late Sir Anthony Richard Wagner has a relevant endnote in his book
>_Pedigree and Progress_. In that book Wagner accepted the Romanus II
>scenario, and Prince Toumanoff gave reasons in favor of it. I join
>Wagner and Toumanoff here.
>
Vasiliev's charts in _History of the Byzantine Empire_ (1952) concur
on Romanus II.
>I do not have my sources at hand, but as I recall Otto's daughter Matilda
>married Edzo of Lorraine, and from their daughter numerous descents are
>traceable. Edzo's wife was indeed the daughter of Theophano.
>
>Others here doubtless can fill you in more extensively, especially on the
>Phocas scenario.
>
I would be interested in more on the Phocas supposition. Vasiliev
shows Theophano's mother Theophano had a second husband, Nicophorus II
Phocas, who succeeded Romanus II. Might this be a source of
confusion?
Francisco Antonio Doria
>1981) by Lindsay L. Brook that says she might be the daughter of Romanus II
>and his 2nd wife Theophana (Anastasa) whom he married in 956.
>
>Was she the mother of Otto's daughter, Matilda of Saxony? Any help will be
>appreciated - thank you!
That's what is given by Previté-Orton, but looks like there is no issue fromk this marriage. I mean, it became extinct.
Chico Doria
-----
Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
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Andrew S. Kalinkin
> I would be interested in more on the Phocas supposition. Vasiliev
> shows Theophano's mother Theophano had a second husband, Nicophorus II
> Phocas, who succeeded Romanus II. Might this be a source of
> confusion?
I also would be interested in this Phocas hypothesis.
Does AR give any source to it? And if the same book
dates this marriage 972, it is even more interesting.
Theoretically such marriage was possible in 963-969,
during the reign of Nicephorus II, but in 972? What
was the point for Otto to marry his son to a daughter
of defeated and convicted rebel?
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Moscow, Russia
Richard Borthwick
>On 30 Dec 1998 17:13:50 -0800, ardg...@juno.com (Jared L Olar) wrote:
>
>>On 30 Dec 1998 16:12:02 -0800 be...@foryou.net (Becky Pyle) writes:
>>>Who were the parents of Theophana (born 956-8, died 991) who married
>>Otto
>>>II of Germany in 972? Ancestral Roots (7th edition) says her father was
>>Leo
>>1981) by Lindsay
>>>L. Brook that says she might be the daughter of Romanus II and his 2nd
>>wife >Theophana (Anastasa) whom he married in 956.
>>>
>>>Was she the mother of Otto's daughter, Matilda of Saxony? Any help will
>>be
>>>appreciated - thank you!
>>
>>_Pedigree and Progress_. In that book Wagner accepted the Romanus II
>>scenario, and Prince Toumanoff gave reasons in favor of it. I join
>>Wagner and Toumanoff here.
>>
>Vasiliev's charts in _History of the Byzantine Empire_ (1952) concur
>on Romanus II.
>
>>I do not have my sources at hand, but as I recall Otto's daughter Matilda
>>married Edzo of Lorraine, and from their daughter numerous descents are
>>traceable. Edzo's wife was indeed the daughter of Theophano.
>>
>>Others here doubtless can fill you in more extensively, especially on the
>>Phocas scenario.
>>
>shows Theophano's mother Theophano had a second husband, Nicophorus II
>Phocas, who succeeded Romanus II. Might this be a source of
>confusion?
>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
empress Theophano. His habits were described as monk-like. No Byzantine
source I know of credits him with porphyrogenetic offspring. It is likely,
however, that he was a great-uncle of Theophano. If Gunther Wolf's
arguments are seen as clinching the solution to Theophano's origins, then
she was the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros (brother of the notorious
Bardas) and Sophia Phokaina (who was daughter of Leon Phokas and niece of
Nikephoros II). A Davids has this to say about Wolf's hypothesis:
"There had been much discussion about her [Theophano's] identity until
Gunther Wolf firmly establishedthat she belonged to the family of the
Skleroi through her father Constantine, brother-in-law of John Tzimiskes;
Theophano's grandfather on her mother's side was a brother of the emperor
Nikephoros II Phokas. ..." (pp.107-108)
The one explicit genealogical detail we know about Theophano (and that from
the best primary source!) is that in the imperial marriage diploma of 14
Apr 972 she is described as the emperor John Tzimiskes' "neptis" or niece.
(John's first wife was Maria Skeraina, Theophano's putative paternal aunt.)
Given the prime western requirement that the bride should be a
porphyrogennete, if Th. had been the daughter (porphyrogennete or
otherwise) of an emperor the marriage diploma would have proclaimed the
fact (in addition to any relationship she may have had to the reigning
Byzantine emperor). Whatever one's position on Wolf's hypothesis, one thing
seems clear - Theophano was unlikely to be a daughter of Romanos II or any
other emperor.
I recall that this subject has already received a reasonably extensive
coverage in this group to which I contributed and gave fairly extensive
references. I would suggest a search of the archives. The details of the
recent Davids paper to which I referred above are:
A Davids "Marriage negotiations between Byzantium and the West and the name
of Theophano in Byzantium (eighth to tenth centuries)" in *The Empress
Theophano: Byzantium and the West at the turn of the first millenium* ed.
by A Davids (Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 1995), pp.99-120.
NOTE: This collection is deliberately not about the genealogy of the
empress but about political and cultural issues. The papers were given at
an international conference at Hernen castle in the Netherlands in 1991 to
mark the millennial anniversary of the empress' death at Nijmegen.
Urania
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au says...
[snip]
>>The one explicit genealogical detail we know about Theophano (and that
from
>the best primary source!) is that in the imperial marriage diploma of 14
>Apr 972 she is described as the emperor John Tzimiskes' "neptis" or
niece.
[more snip]
The word NEPOS should have a health warning attached to it in all
genealogical circles. It can mean either NEPHEW/NIECE or
GRAND-DAUGHTER/-SON.
You need other evidence to sort out which one the scrivener meant when he
wrote the word ...
sk...@ix.netcom.com
Borthwick) wrote:
<SNIP what he was replying to, a multi-level incorporation>
>
>Nikephoros II would be an unlikely candidate as a father for the western
>empress Theophano. His habits were described as monk-like. No Byzantine
>source I know of credits him with porphyrogenetic offspring. It is likely,
>however, that he was a great-uncle of Theophano. If Gunther Wolf's
>arguments are seen as clinching the solution to Theophano's origins, then
>she was the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros (brother of the notorious
>Bardas) and Sophia Phokaina (who was daughter of Leon Phokas and niece of
>Nikephoros II). A Davids has this to say about Wolf's hypothesis:
>"There had been much discussion about her [Theophano's] identity until
>Gunther Wolf firmly establishedthat she belonged to the family of the
>Skleroi through her father Constantine, brother-in-law of John Tzimiskes;
>Theophano's grandfather on her mother's side was a brother of the emperor
>Nikephoros II Phokas. ..." (pp.107-108)
>
>The one explicit genealogical detail we know about Theophano (and that from
>the best primary source!) is that in the imperial marriage diploma of 14
>Apr 972 she is described as the emperor John Tzimiskes' "neptis" or niece.
>(John's first wife was Maria Skeraina, Theophano's putative paternal aunt.)
>Given the prime western requirement that the bride should be a
>porphyrogennete, if Th. had been the daughter (porphyrogennete or
>otherwise) of an emperor the marriage diploma would have proclaimed the
>fact (in addition to any relationship she may have had to the reigning
>Byzantine emperor). Whatever one's position on Wolf's hypothesis, one thing
>seems clear - Theophano was unlikely to be a daughter of Romanos II or any
>other emperor.
>
>I recall that this subject has already received a reasonably extensive
>coverage in this group to which I contributed and gave fairly extensive
>references. I would suggest a search of the archives. The details of the
>recent Davids paper to which I referred above are:
>A Davids "Marriage negotiations between Byzantium and the West and the name
>of Theophano in Byzantium (eighth to tenth centuries)" in *The Empress
>Theophano: Byzantium and the West at the turn of the first millenium* ed.
>by A Davids (Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 1995), pp.99-120.
>NOTE: This collection is deliberately not about the genealogy of the
>empress but about political and cultural issues. The papers were given at
>an international conference at Hernen castle in the Netherlands in 1991 to
>mark the millennial anniversary of the empress' death at Nijmegen.
>
The opacity of the foregoing, relying as it does in the final analysis
on a negative implication from a "marriage diploma," compares
unfavorably to the clarity of the Wagner/Toumnoff discussion (with
Jared Olar's valuable glosses), which I think worth reproducing here
for those who didn't follow through on the pointer to the archives.
Olar's contribution was the oldest article (on this topic) in the
archives, and I didn't see anything that improved upon it. Here it
is:
QUOTE
Hi Dave. Here's some helpful information quoted from Sir
Anthony
Richard Wagner's book PEDIGREE AND PROGRESS, 1975, page 258:
"The parentage of Theophano, wife of the Emperor Otto II, has
been much disputed. The evidence and arguments are summarized and
discussed in a recent article by Count Ruedt-Collenberg, 'Wer war
Theophano'.
"Prince Toumanoff (in a letter of 5 Nov. 1972) comments that
though this well sums up all the arguments, it fails, in his view, to
draw correct conclusions. 'That she is referred to as a niece of John
Tsimisces, instead of as a daughter of Romanus II is no argument,
because
at the moment of her marriage she was indeed the niece of the then
reigning Emperor, i.e. John I. Vasiliev has shown that Romanus and
Theophano indeed has another child, so that there is room for
Theophano
in their family. Her name, rare enough, is that of Romanus II's
low-born
wife, assumed after her elevation. . . .'"
I'll interrupt here for a moment--Prince Toumanoff is referring to the
objection to the onomastic argument. Since then currrent
naming-tradition
of Greek noble families in the Eastern Roman Empire was that children
not be
named after their parents, some have used this to show that Theophano
could not have been the daughter of Empress Theophano. However,
'Theophano'
was only a regnal name of Romanus' wife, who om any event was
low-born. She
might not have perfectly followed prevailing custom in naming her
children.
Anyway, naming traditions are never hard and fast rules--exceptions to
prevailing customs can often be found.
To continue with Wagner and Toumanoff:
"'. . . Finally, there is only one serious argument, cited by
Ruedt-Collenberg, namely, that of affinity and no trace of
dispensation,
in connexion with the marriage, or just betrothal, of Romanus II's
granddaughter Zoe to Theophano's son Otto III, i.e. her first cousin.
But the situation is not as simple as that. On the Western side, the
fact (adduced by Ruedt-Collenberg) that we have no trace of a
dispensation for such a marriage is rather an argument from silence,
and
silence complicated by the presence of an anti-Pope; he was a
Byzantine
creature and it was he who, prior to becoming an anti-pope, carried on
the negotiations for the marriage (_C.M.H._, VI, (1966), p.184); he
quite
obviously would have acceded to the wishes of his Imperial protector
at
Constantinople. On the Byzantine side, one notices very often that
the
intransigence of the clergy withers before a forceful Emperor such as
Basil II. Indeed, Zoe later married her second cousin (once removed)
Romanus Argyrus and no questions were asked. In view of all this, I
personally consider Theophano a daughter of Romanus II, unless
stronger
argument to the contrary is produced.'"
So my question would be--Has stronger argument to the contrary
been produced? Prince Toumanoff's argument's seem cogent enough, and
I
favor the "daughter of Romanus II" theory as opposed to the "Theophano
Skleros" theory. Of course, either theory can link Empress Theophano
to
Armenian nobility--the same, in fact, as that which seems to have
produced
the Macedonian Dynasty.
By the way, has anyone else noticed that "Ancestral Roots" has
garbled
the info. about Theophano? Even the 7th. edition retained that old
typo
about the Skleros and Phokas families!
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
UNQUOTE
>
Jared L Olar
writes:
>The one explicit genealogical detail we know about Theophano (and that
>from the best primary source!) is that in the imperial marriage diploma
of
>14 Apr 972 she is described as the emperor John Tzimiskes' "neptis" or
>niece. (John's first wife was Maria Skeraina, Theophano's putative
paternal
>aunt.)
>
>Given the prime western requirement that the bride should be a
>porphyrogennete, if Th. had been the daughter (porphyrogennete or
>otherwise) of an emperor the marriage diploma would have proclaimed
>the fact (in addition to any relationship she may have had to the
>reigning Byzantine emperor). Whatever one's position on Wolf's
hypothesis, one
>thing seems clear - Theophano was unlikely to be a daughter of Romanos
II or
>any other emperor.
Not having read Wolf, I wonder if anyone might abstract his arguments and
his evidence that Theophano's marriage diploma would have called her a
porphyrogenete if she had in fact been one.
Francisco Antonio Doria
>his evidence that Theophano's marriage diploma would have called her a
>porphyrogenete if she had in fact been one.
>
>Jared Olar
I have already pointed out this here in connection to `Leo, an Armenian'
in the ancestry of Basil I: one must go to the original text (in Greek)
and argue out of it. Neptis is Latin.
Chico Doria
-----
Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
Richard Borthwick
Otto I for his son in which 'neptis' in an accusative form occurs is a
Latin document.
Francisco Antonio Doria
Sorry for my mistake. But - could you post it to me, then? I really don't
like to discuss translated stuff.
Chico Doria
Neptis/nepta is more frequently gradndaughter.
Richard Borthwick
clarissimam..."
You are quite right that 'neptis' can and classically did mean
granddaughter. By this time however it had acquired quite a wide extension
of meaning in the West (see Jackman's note on this in *Prosopon* No.8
(http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/prosop/PRSPN8.stm) at the Unit for
Prosopographical Research website. The reference in the imperial diploma is
unlikely to mean granddaughter. The emperor John married twice - first to
Maria Skleraina and secondly to the elderly princess Theodora of the
Macedonian dynasty. He married Maria between 959 and 963 (during the reign
of Romanos II) and she died before 969. Theophano was married in 972 and is
thought to have been born in 956 (though ES I.1:10 does not give a birth
date for her while ES I:6 does). In any case while at a squeeze she might
have been John's daughter she could not have been his granddaughter.
Richard Borthwick
Sorry I forgot to cite my reference for the details on Maria and John. W
Seibt *Die Skleroi. Eine prosopgraphisch-sigillographische Studie* (Vienna,
1976) p.29. For John's second wife see G Ostogorsky *History of the
Byzantine State* trans. by J Hussey (Oxford, 1968) p.294.
Francisco Antonio Doria
>clarissimam..."
...Theophano, of Johannes, emperor at Constantinople, [niece? gdaughter]
very illustrious... in a literal translation. Yes, you're right, it's
ambiguous. Very much like `genos' in the text that refers to Basil's
ancestry. In that latter case I'd vote for `clan,' `extended family,'
instead of simply something like `nationality,' a meaningless concept at
that time.
Thanks for the text,
Chico Doria