Elizabeth Carew mother of Sir Thomas Lewknor
Rosie Bevan
Lewknor brought forth a number of versions. I am adding another one which
seems to me entirely plausible and well researched.
From William Bayley, Account of the House of D'Oyly, 1845.p.95
ROGER LEWKNER of Bradhurst, co Sussex; who married Margaret, daughter of Sir
John Carew of Molesford, co Berks [Lewknor ped. Add MS 5523 fol. 17 and Harl
MS 6164 fol.23b] (Or, three lions passant in pale sable) and died 1401 2 Hen
IV, a young man; his nuncuperative will being proved Feb 1401-2 in the
Prerogative Court of Canterbury. His IPM was not however until 13 Hen IV
when it was found that he had died seized of all his father's estates in
Sussex, and that his son and heir Thomas was then aet 19 [Esch 13 Hen IV
no.28 ; Cott MS Faust C x] [That makes him born 1394]
SIR THOMAS LEWKNOR, aforesaid of Bradhurst, co Sussex & co who had
previously in 5th Hen IV been found heir,
through his grandmother Joane D'Oyly to the extensive estates of the Tregoze
family at Goring, co Sussex, and elsewhere in that county, on the death of
John Tregoze of Goring, son of Sir Henry Tregoze, Knt : on which occasion
the jury returned that "Thomas Lewknor was the cousin and heir of the
deceased (being the son of Roger, the son of Joan, the daughter of Margaret
D'Oyly, sister of Sir Henry Tregoze) and that the said Thomas was 12 years
of age. [Esch 5 Hen IV John Tregoze]. Sir Thomas thus acquired many numerous
estates in Sussex ; moved his seat to Goring ; was knight of the shire for
Sussex in 1 Hen VI (1423) and was thrice married. His first wife was
Elizabeth, daughter of his maternal kinsman and guardian Nicholas Carew of
Beddington, co. Surrey (ancestor of the Baronets Carew of Beddington) by
Mary his wife. She died s.p. Sept 1410 and was buried in Beddington church
[Manning's Surrey, II 523-9]. He married secondly Philippa, relict of Sir
Richard Berners, daughter and, by death s.p. of her brother Richard
Dalyngrigge, sole heiress of Walter Dalyngrigge, son of Sir Roger
Dalyngrigge of Bodiam Castle, co. Sussex, and cousin and heiress of Sir John
Dalyngrigge, Knt.
[Bayley goes on to say that Thomas Lewknor's third wife was Catherine
Pelham, but on my copy he has realised his mistake and crossed it out. In
his handwriting he has added "this relates to his grandson" and "his third
wife was Elizabeth Echingham"]
Has anyone any experience of obtaining copies of Harleian MS?
Are these available from the British Museum or the PRO?
I would be grateful for some advice.
Cheers
Rosie
A Channing
Philippa as the cousin of Sir John D., and not sister as given in some
sources. However I have her grandfather as another Sir John D., not Sir
Roger.
The following is from the National Trusts guide to Bodiam Castle (1991),
which appears to have been well researched:
(fixed font)
Sir John Dalygrigge
]
Sir John D = Joan de La Lynde
]
------------------------------------------------
] ]
Sir Edward D (c1346-by 1395) Walter D
Builder of Bodiam Castle ]
] ]
-------------- ------------------------
] ] ] ] ]
Sir John D Margaret Richard William Philippa
(-1408 sp) = Sir T Sackville (-1470 sp) =(1) Sir R
Barnes
= Alice ] = (2) Sir
Thomas Lewknor
(-1443) ] ----------------]
She m2 ] ]
Sir Thomas Edward Sir Roger L =(1) Eleanor d of Ld Camoys
Botiler of Dedisham ] =(2) Isabel d of Roger
Etchingham
in Slinfold ]
(-1478) ]
]
------------------------------------------------------
] ]
Sir Thomas L = Katherine d of Sir John Pelham Sir Roger L = Mary West
of Trotton ] and wdw of John Bramshot of West Dean ]
(c1456-1484)] ]
] ]
Sir Roger Lewknor (-1543) Sir Lewis L
(The Bodiam estate went
to his descendants)
The tomb brass of Sir Walter and Lady Dalyngrigge (c 1390) are at Fletching
church, Sussex.
The mutilated remains of an effigy thought to be that of Sir John
Dalyngrigge who was buried at Robertsbridge Abbey is extant. (Presumably
the Sir John who died 1408)
Richard D inherited the estates on the death of Alice wife of Sir John D.
Richard was predeceased by his brother William and himself died in 1470.
Both brothers died without issue and in accordance with Sir John D's will
the estates passed to Philippa
Sussex Archaeological Collection gives details of other issue of Philippa
and Thomas Lewknor.
Rosie wrote,
ŠAdrian (Surrey, UK) <ACha...@CompuServe.Com>
NB There should _not_ be an(y) attachment(s) to this plain text message
Kevan L. Barton
This is very good. It tracks with the pedigree I sent you earlier except in
a couple of areas: the dates for Sir Roger Lewknor; and the name of his
wife.
The Sussex Arch. Collections referenced earlier gives his ob. as 10 Edw IV
(c 1471) and his IPM as 13 Edw IV (c 1474); and that he was Knight of the
Shire in 4th Henry IV (1404). Your reference states that he died 2 Hen IV
(1401) and that his IPM was in 13 Hen IV (c 1412). The conflicts these
dates present will have to be solved by someone having access to the IPM
proceedings to make sure we're talking about the same Roger Lewknor.
I lean towards your source. The reason being is Roger's son Thomas was born
in c1392 (aet. 19 13th Hen IV [source:Sussex] and aet 12 5th Hen IV (your
source)). Let's say his father was 20 when Thomas was born. That would make
his birthday c. 1372. So, he'd have been close to 100yrs old at death if
Sussex is correct!
To make matters a little more complicated, Sussex says that Thomas had a
brother, Sir John Lewknor, of Goring, Knight of the Shire, 1450; sheriff, 29
Henry VI; M.P. for Horsham, 1459. Proclaimed [what does this mean?] after
Tewksbury, 27th April 1471 (Rym. Foed. II. p. 710). It doesn't say John was
older, but the order in which they're treated on the pedigree chart does
infer that. Also, John was of Goring? This brother stuff really doesn't
complicate matters and can be simply excused as younger sibling matters. No
marriage or children are offered for this John.
For what it's worth, the Lewknor quarterings does include in this order:
Lewknor, Dalyngrudge, Tregoz, Folyott, Camoys, Bardolph, Grandison,
Echingham, Braose, ......, ......, D'Oyley, ....., Goring, and .......
However, they do appear to be out of order.
And last of all, you provide a Margaret Carew as the wife of Roger and
daughter of Sir John Carew of Molesford, co. Berks. Does this help us find
the right John Carew?
Cheers,
kevan
Kevan L. Barton
This is to only share a lead on the identity of Sir John Carew, the father
of Elizabeth/Margaret Carew who married Roger Lewknor father of Thomas
Lewknor.
Your earlier post stated that Sir John Carew was of Molesford, co. Berks.
Taking Molesford as the hint, I relooked at "700 Years of the Bosville
Family", page 397-98, and noted that Molesford was included as the
possession of the Carews up to the father of the Sir Nicholas Carew who
married Lucy Willoughby. Oh, to make a long story short, this Nicholas
Carew is not shown to be of Molesford. This could mean that Molesford
(Moulesford) passed to another brother. Nicholas' brother was a "Sir John
Carew ancestor of the Carews of Anthony Cornwall." His wives were 1,
Elinor, dau. and heir of William Mohun of Ottery, and 2)Joan, dau. of Sir
Richard Talbot.
If this Sir John is the one we're looking for, our Elizabeth/margaret Carew
who married Roger Lewknor could, therefore, be the first cousin of the
Nicholas Carew who married Mercy Hayme (the parents of Elizabeth Carew who
married Thomas Lewknor, the son of the above Roger Lewknor.)
Anyway, this is something to look into. I just may be talking out the side
of my head, but the generations fit, the family connections fit, the landed
connections may fit, and the names potentially fit. Anyway, there's
something to really chew on.
Cheers,
Kevan
A Channing
<snip>
>
> The Sussex Arch. Collections referenced earlier gives his ob. as 10 Edw
IV
> (c 1471) and his IPM as 13 Edw IV (c 1474); and that he was Knight of the
> Shire in 4th Henry IV (1404). Your reference states that he died 2 Hen IV
> (1401) and that his IPM was in 13 Hen IV (c 1412). The conflicts these
> dates present will have to be solved by someone having access to the IPM
> proceedings to make sure we're talking about the same Roger Lewknor.
<snip>
As per my previous post, I think these dates are errors and should be 10 &
13 _Hy IV_. In this source his son Sir Thomas is given as aged 19 in 13 Hy
IV, and the most likely source for his age would be his fathers ipm.
In the Sussex Arch. Collections there is what looks like a ref. to a
foot-note against Sir Roger but unfortunately no foot-notes were
reproduced in this article. I suspect it would have been a correction to
these dates.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
cbe...@xtra.co.nz (Rosie Bevan) wrote:
> My original question about the identity of Elizabeth Carew, wife of Roger
> Lewknor brought forth a number of versions. I am adding another one which
> seems to me entirely plausible and well researched.
>
<snip>
>
> Has anyone any experience of obtaining copies of Harleian MS?
> Are these available from the British Museum or the PRO?
> I would be grateful for some advice.
There's a big stack in the (new) British Library at Euston. They refer
to them as the "Harley" (as in Harley Davidson) collection and there are
four thick volumes of a catalogue of them. If you can provide the
Harleian MS number, they'll get the right document out for you. It can
take an age going through the catalogues if you don't know the reference
number; they are not indexed on the computer (yet).
Copies are different. They send them off to a specialist photography
department and charge your for same. I shudder to think of the price.
And you need a reader's ticket, reportedly difficult to obtain but they
gave me one when I queued up at the relevant desk.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org