William the Conqueror and his uncle Walter
Leo van de Pas
This lineage is broken down in segments and there are a few questions I have about the early ones.
The first one is headed Pedigree Chart 1: to 1066
It starts with the vague heading COUNTS OF ANJOU a line connects downwards to Raoul Taisson, Radolphus Andegavensis (or Angers) lived at Thury, married Alpaďde.
They had two sons, the elder Raoul Taisson (wife's name unknown) Seigneur de Cinglais, Lord of Thury. Held lands in the Cotentin ca.1030. Witnessed charter of Mont St.Michel. At the battle of Val de Dunes, Founded Abbey of Fontenay. He is shown to be the father of :
Raoul Taisson, Seigneur de Cinglais, "Taisson de Tignolles". Lived at Mutrcy. Present at the Battle of Hastings, 1066. He married Matilda, Cousin of William the Conqueror.
The second is headed Pedigree Chart 2 : to 1066, the family of Raoul Taisson's wife
On top we start with Fulbert of Falaise and he has two children displayed:
Arlette (or Herleve) mother of William the Conqueror, and Walter.
Walter has two daughters displayed, Clara and Matildas, wife of Raoul Taisson
Pedigree chart 3 : to 1086
Raoul Tasson, at the battle of Hastings, married to Matilda, daughter of Walter, uncle of William the Conqueror. Witnessed charter of foundation of Abbey of Fonteneay. In the Founding charter she is described as "Mathildis filia Gualteri avunculo Guglielmi Regis Anglorum." They had two sons, Osbern Fitztezzon, in Cheshire in 1086, and Jourdain, Seigneur de Cinglais.
Jourdain, Seigneur de Cinglais, married Letitia, daughter of Neil de St.Sauveur, Vicomte de Cotentin.
parents of Raoul, his wife unknown,
and father of
Jeanne, wife of Robert Bertrand, Lord of Briquebec.
Pedigree Chart 4 : 1050-1242
Osbern Fitztezzon, Domesday tenant. Held lands in Cheshire and Lincolnshire, living in 1119.
Wife unknown, father of William FitzOzbern (Witnessed charter of Richard, Earl of Chester ca.1119) and Hugh FitzOsbern
Hugh FitzOzbern, Lord of the Manor of Dodleston. Held lands in Lincs. 1114. Signed documents in 1093, 1119 and 1124, wife unknown,
father of
Osbern Fitzhugh "Osbern Meschyn", in 1119, signed a charter in 1124, wife unknown
father of
William FitzOzbern may have given tithes to nuns of St.Mary, Chester between 1153 and 1181, wife unknown
father of
Idonea, alive in 1242, inherited Domesday lands, married Helto de Boydell who died before 1180 they had at least four sons. From here on the Boydell family continues till the present.
Is anyone interested in these Boydells? Is the above correct? Can anyone add to it?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Rosie Bevan
I'm not familiar with the continental side and leave that for other to
comment, but some of the English genealogy is trackable via Domesday People
and Domesday Descendants.
1. Ralph Taisson d. by 1079=Matilda, dau. of Walter, uncle of William the
Conqueror DD 1122
2. Ralph Taisson d. aft 1129/30=Adeliza DD1122
3. Jordan Taisson d.1178=Letitia d + h Roger de St Sauveur DD1121
4. Ralph forfeited English lands 1204
4. Roger
4. Jordan
Osbern filius Tezzonis is listed in Domesday People p. 316, as a tenant of
the Earl of Chester in Lincolnshire, but not as the brother of Ralph
Taisson, and I'm unsure if there is a documented connection or not. The
descent of his land in Newball, Lincs., of the Honour of Chester, is covered
in HKF II p.175-76 indicating that Hugh de Newball was Osbert's heir. DD 333
says that Hugh's heir was Idonea, wife of Helto de Boisdel. Osbern was
succeeded by Hugh by 1118 and Helte was active in 1175 and died in 1180.
Helte and Idonea's son, Hugh died in 1200 and he was followed by Alan, his
brother. Alan's son John was dead by 1233 and Idonea Boydel occurs in
1242-3. There are clearly a few generations between the Idoneas and they are
not the same. By the 1260s Newball was no longer held by the Boydel family.
It's not looking particularly sound. Is there documentation with the line?
Cheers
Rosie
Peter Stewart
> Dear Leo
>
> I'm not familiar with the continental side and leave that for other to
> comment, but some of the English genealogy is trackable via Domesday People
> and Domesday Descendants.
>
> 1. Ralph Taisson d. by 1079=Matilda, dau. of Walter, uncle of William the
> Conqueror DD 1122
> 2. Ralph Taisson d. aft 1129/30=Adeliza DD1122
> 3. Jordan Taisson d.1178=Letitia d + h Roger de St Sauveur DD1121
> 4. Ralph forfeited English lands 1204
> 4. Roger
> 4. Jordan
Something appears to be wrong in the DD entries, Rosie, but I can't help
much from books - I've just smashed my glasses (Spencer, I wasn't drunk)
& can barely read from the screen by zooming in.
According to Léopold Delisle in _Histoire du château et des sires de
Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte_ (Valognes, 1867) p. 31 Letitia was niece and
not daughter of Viscount Roger. He quoted a charter (loc. cit., note 1)
where she is called "neptis Rogerii vicecomitis", but I can't find this
by scanning the preuves section and as there is no cross-reference given
it probably isn't there anyway. Maybe you will have better luck.
Anyway, Letitia and Jordan were married by 1145, and only two sons were
named ca 1165, Ralph and Roger (preuves p. 72, no. 52). The same two
were named by Letitia ca 1180, after her husband's death (p. 81, no.
58), so unless there was also a short-lived third son named Jordan, or
he was omitted on these occasions for some other reason, he seems to be
one too many.
Peter Stewart
Rosie Bevan
The evidence you were looking for that Leticia was niece of Roger de St
Sauveur is found on p. 78 of the preuves section of 'Histoire du château et
des sires de Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte', where she refers to herself as
"...Leticia, neptis Rogerii vicecomitis et uxor Jordani Thessonis...". It is
doubtful that she would refer to her herself as a 'neptis' if she was a
daughter so you are right on that count. I wonder if it's possible that she
could be a granddaughter, though, with the names of her daughters being
Matilda and Cecily and her second son bearing the name Roger. If Roger le
vicomte and his wife Cecily (daughter of Enguerrand de Port) had a son, he
would be named Roger, after the vicomte's father. It's possible that there
was such a son and that he died in the lifetime of his father, but no
evidence exists in the cartulary. In fact there is very little of Roger's
except a pancarte of 1136 (pp.59-65) and an extract of a pancarte from St
Stephen's, Caen (p.58).
As you note Leticia names Ralph and Roger as her sons after Jordan's death
(p.81). In 1188 Jordan's heir, Ralph de Taisson, gave a hermitage to the
abbey and the gift (p.82) was witnessed by "Jordano Taisson fratre meo". He
must have been a half brother and not a son of Leticia.
Cheers
Rosie
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie, Peter, et al.,
In addition to the Tesson family, there is a kinswoman of
Henry I of England still looking for proper placement. This
is Sibyl de Falaise, 1st wife of Baldwin de Boulers.
She is described as a 'nepta' to King Henry I of England,
who gave the Honour of Montgomery as her maritagium (a good
indicator of a 'close' connection). Besides older attempts
to place her erroneously as a niece (and thereby a
granddaughter of the Conqueror), she was likely a descendant
of a sibling of Herleve/Arlette, the mother of Duke/King
William [1].
She would be a good candidate as a great-granddaughter of
either Walter or Osbern (or another unidentified sibling of
Herleve). Besides her infamous grandson Renaud FitzUrse
(one of the murderers of Becket), she is an ancestress of
the Lords Engaine, the later Lords Basset of Weldon, and
many more besides.
Any evidence/suggestions?
Cheers, and thanks,
John
NOTES
[1] cf. CP under Engaine;
DP 440, re: her daughter Matilda and son-in-law
Richard FitzUrse;
Dugdale, Baronage of England I:598 (sub Boulers);
Farmerie, <Re: FitzUrse and de Cantelou/Cantilupe>,
SGM, 11 May 2002
Peter Stewart
scarcely add up to a useful fraction without glasses as you see.
Viscount Roger had a brother Nigel, who I suppose could have been
Letitia's father; equally the chronology seems to allow for her to be a
granddaughter of this generation as you suggest. She might have named a
daughter after Cecily if brought up by her, whether this was her
grandmother or her aunt/great-aunt by marriage.
The Taisson family was important enough for the younger Jordan to have
left traces despite being only a step-son of the heiress to
Saint-Sauveur, if that's what he was. The only occurrence I can find is
his attestation, as the first witness, to a charter of Henry II dated
1182-3, known from an inspeximus of 1339 [JH Round, _Calendar of
Documents Preserved in France..._ (London, 1899) p. 311 no. 870]. Beyond
this I will have to defer to other eyes, it isn't worth my visiting a
library today.
Peter
Rosie Bevan
I'm revising my opinion that Jordan was not the son of Leticia after reading
the footnote on p.35 of Delisle's history. A fragment of a charter by
Leticia to Hambye is witnessed by "Jordano Tesson, filio meo". As Ralph and
Roger are involved in the gift by their parents i.e.it is done with their
knowledge and agreement, just naming two sons may be an economical way
whereby it is on record that the heir and the spare have confirmed the gift
and there is no need to get further confirmation after the deaths of their
parents.
Delisle lists their 5 children thus
1. Ralph, son and heir. Lost two manors in Notts. and Kent in 1204. Dead by
1214. He left 3 daughters Pernel, wife of William Paynel, Joan married a
sire of Briquebec and Matilda was wife of Richard de Harcourt, who succeeded
his father in law to the barony of St Sauveur.
2. Roger d. aft 1231
3. Jordan
4. Matilda married c.1198 to William de Soliers
5. Cecily married to Fulk Paynel
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
To: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com>; <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: William the Conqueror and his uncle Walter
> Dear Peter
>
> The evidence you were looking for that Leticia was niece of Roger de St
> Sauveur is found on p. 78 of the preuves section of 'Histoire du chāteau
> > According to Léopold Delisle in _Histoire du chāteau et des sires de
Chris Phillips
> In addition to the Tesson family, there is a kinswoman of
> Henry I of England still looking for proper placement. This
> is Sibyl de Falaise, 1st wife of Baldwin de Boulers.
>
> She is described as a 'nepta' to King Henry I of England,
> who gave the Honour of Montgomery as her maritagium (a good
> indicator of a 'close' connection). Besides older attempts
> to place her erroneously as a niece (and thereby a
> granddaughter of the Conqueror), she was likely a descendant
> of a sibling of Herleve/Arlette, the mother of Duke/King
> William [1].
>
> She would be a good candidate as a great-granddaughter of
> either Walter or Osbern (or another unidentified sibling of
> Herleve). Besides her infamous grandson Renaud FitzUrse
> (one of the murderers of Becket), she is an ancestress of
> the Lords Engaine, the later Lords Basset of Weldon, and
> many more besides.
I have notes of various contributions posted here on the problem of Sibyl's
ancestry.
It seems that opinions have differed on whether she was the daughter of
William de Falaise, lord of Stogursey, Somerset. CP and Keats-Rohan say that
she was, but Sanders, English Baronies, p. 23, says it seems she wasn't
(citing Regesta ii, no 1923; J.Bain, 'Notes on William de Courtenay, founder
of Worspring Priory, in Genealogist NS iii 193-7). Apparently one older
suggestion was that she was actually an illegitimate daughter of Henry I.
As Rosie Bevan has pointed out, Keats-Rohan (DP p. 474) quotes a suggestion
by P. Busey ("William of Falaise", N & Q for Somerset and Dorset, vol. 33,
Sept. 1992, pp. 146-7) that William may have been the son of William de
Moulins, son of Walter de Falaise, brother of Herleve de Falaise. This
agrees with your suggestion above.
Last year Stewart Baldwin posted that Kathleen Thompson (whose paper I still
haven't seen) did not accept that Sibyl was the daughter of William of
Falaise, but suggested the possibility that she was an illegitimate daughter
of Robert, Duke of Normandy (and thus really Henry I's niece).
Chris Phillips
Michael Harris
The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec. I suspect Gunnor’s sister was Turquetil’s second wife. This was her first marriage and she first gave birth to Walter Giffard. Walter was perhaps Turquetil’s youngest and last child before he dies and his wife remarries to Osbern. Walter was not Osbern’s son and the Bolbec tenants of Giffard are maternal kinsmen. Walter’s prominence among Turquetil’s children is perhaps due to his mother, the sister-in-law of Duke Richard, King William's grandfather. This makes Walter an avunculus of King William.
Michael Harris
Peter Stewart
> Replying to an interesting old post. I believe the avunculus (maternal uncle) Walter is actually Walter Giffard.
>
> The first Walter Giffard was the first born of his mother, who subsequently remarried to Osbern de Bolbec. From FMG: the Genealogia Fundatoris of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire states ”Turketillus frater Turulphi” married “aliam sororem comitissæ Gunnoræ” and that she was the mother of “duos…filios…Walterum de Giffard primogenitum…” This does not contradict Guillaume de Jumieges who also states that Walter Giffard was her first born and that she married Osbern de Bolbec.
Torigni in his additional book of Gesta Normannorum ducum): the passage
in question explicitly states that Walter Giffard was the son of Osbern
- "Tercia autem sororum Gunnoris comitisse, nupsit Osberno de Bolebec.
Ex qua genuit Galterium Gifardum primum et Godefridum patrem Willelmi de
Archis", literally meaning "The third sister of Countess Gunnor married
Osbern de Bolbec. By whom he begot the first Walter Giffard and Godfrey
father of William of Arques".
Robert de Torigni is not a perfectly reliable authority for genealogy,
but setting a late monastic foundation history against his information
is dicey at best. David Douglas in his biography of William the
Conqueror identified the latter's uncles Osbern and Walter as brothers
of his mother Herleve, sons of her father Fulbert, see table 6. The
names Osbern and Walter were common enough that the most prominent
bearers are not necessarily the relevant or even the likeliest ones in
every ducal context.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
Michael Harris
[1] Who is the avunculus Walter (older male relative) of Duke William?
[2] Was Turquetil de Tourville potentially the father of the first Walter Giffard?
Your reply is with respect to the second question, but let’s proceed with the first and separately address the second. A very exciting work in progress concerns William Pictavensis aka William of Poitiers, undoubtedly an extremely near relation and possibly the father of Ralph Grammaticus I, paternal ancestor of myself and many team members at https://groups.io/g/crispincousins. A leading expert concerning William Pictavensis is R.H.C. Davis, author of "from Alfred the Great to Stephen." Davis teamed up with Marjorie Chibnall, who specializes in translations of Latin, which she terms a highly fluid language. Together, they translated the work of William of Poitiers, which unfortunately exists as a single copy missing the first and last pages. The missing first page likely provides some biographical information about the author, and the absence of this page greatly distressed Davis. Consequently, Davis was forced to rely on the work of Orderic and his amazing intuition to provide a short biography of the author. With great respect to Davis and Chibnall, I will shortly publish an expansion of this biography. An excerpt from this work concerns William's pedigree. William of Poiters is the son of Anschetil, lord of Les Preaux. This Anschetil, whose brothers use the moniker Efflanc, is the son of Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny, the son of Turquetil de Tourville. This pedigree fits nicely with everything we know about Ralph Grammaticus I.
Interestingly, Davis highlights the very close connection between William of Poitiers and Bishop Odo and states that “if the connection with Odo can be established beyond doubt, we may find that we have solved some of the problems of WP’s sources (that WP’s work was not widely reproduced). The hypothesis is proposed that William of Poitiers is none other than the forefather of the family Albini Rufus and Roger de Albini is perhaps among his sons. William, the father of Roger de Albini, had very close ties with Bishop Odo, who was his overlord in Normandy. At Domesday in England, Bishop Odo is the overlord of Ilbert de Lacy, overlord of the Pictavensis and Grammaticus families.
While researching William of Poitiers, it became clear that he answered the pope's call of 1063 to save Christendom in Spain. Once again, I stumbled on Walter Giffard, perhaps second of that name, who also answered the pope’s call to arms in Spain. Interestingly, “Giffard le Peiteuin,” is the name given by Geoffrey Gaimer to Walter Giffard. This is the same moniker found among the Pictavus relations of Grammaticus in Yorkshire. Walter is likely to have known William Pictavensis well and perhaps shared William's moniker for the same reason ...as a well-educated graduate of Saint-Hilaire-le-Grand of Poitiers. Alternatively, perhaps Walter Giffard led the Poitou contingent under the banner of the Duke of Aquitaine. I hope to finish and publish this effort soon "William Pictavensis, father of Roger de Albini," and apologies for the long prologue.
During this pivot to Walter Giffard, I inspected previous research that proposed Walter Giffard is perhaps the mysterious “Uncle Walter” of young Duke William. During the course of that effort, the true identity of "Uncle Walter" has perhaps been revealed, the chamberlain Walter who attended young Duke William. The identity of this Uncle Walter is the primary subject of this research note. Upon reflection, “Uncle Walter” of Duke William was not likely the same as Walter Giffard, chronologically most likely second of that name. Birthright was the singular driving force of these times, a fact that modern scholars often forget or overlook. This was also my mistake when first contemplating the identity of Uncle Walter. From the descriptions of Orderic, Walter was a chamberlain of the young Duke, which would have been in hereditary succession of a previous chamberlain. This realization doesn't totally rule out Walter Giffard if Walter is indeed a great grandson of Turquetil de Tourville as suspected, but we have stronger candidates as successors in the office of chamberlain.
Multiple hereditary offices of the ducal or royal chamber existed in Normandy and post-Conquest England overseen by a High Chamberlain, but period documents rarely specify which office is intended. For example, one of King William’s learned clerks of the privy exchequer (the king’s finances, not the realm) was the chamberlain Ansgot Rufus de Albini (of Rochester, Burwell and elsewhere), called “camerarius regis” in one document and simply “clerico” in another. In the same office, the chamberlain Herbert Rufus (a near kinsman of Ansgot) was specifically called “regis cubicularius et thesaurarius,” specifying that he was the king’s privy comptroller, a clerk of the privy exchequer, an office sometimes also called “clerici de Camera.” Specificity of office was often not required, since everyone of the period understood exactly who was being referenced.
Among the two most reasonable candidates, “Uncle Walter” is potentially a presumed son of the chamberlain Fulbert as suggested by Douglas. Most scholars understand “Fulberti cubicularii ducis” to mean that Fulbert was an officer of Duke William’s chamber. However, that is not necessarily the case. Fulbert may have been among the chamberlains of Duke Robert II, succeeded in that hereditary office by his son Walter, presuming the chamberlain Walter of Duke William’s minority was in fact Fulbert’s son. OK so far. However, we do not find any sons of Fulbert mentioned by Guillaume of Jumieges or by Orderic or subscribing to charters (Douglas is clearly mistaken) or named in other period documents. But for the sake of argument, suppose for the moment that Fulbert did have a son named Walter who was chamberlain to Duke William during his minority.
Orderic states "Willemus enim ex concubina Rodberti ducis nomine Herleva, Fulberti cubicularii ducis filia natus.” As is often the case, we cannot know exactly which hereditary office of the king’s chamber was occupied by Fulbert. But as a prerequisite to occupy that office, we know that Fulbert must be a member of a qualified family of some stature in descent from a great Danish family as were all the Norman nobility of that period. Such is especially true for those most trusted officers of the ducal (Normandy) or royal (England) chamber. Furthermore, the politics and rules of Norman society (some were laws, other customs) would not have allowed Duke William’s marriage to the daughter of a lowborn burgess, no matter her qualities. These two observations go hand-in-hand.
William de Jumieges says “Pelles enim et renones ad iniuriam ducis uerberauerant ipsumque pelliciarium despective vocauerunt, eo quod parentes matris eius pollinctores extiterant.” Translations of Orderic taken from a translation of this passage by William de Jumieges often make Fulbert a tradesman and tanner and embalmer. Douglas suggests “the origins of Herleve were humble.” Numerous scholars such as Douglas fail to recognize that this context would have been impossible.
Authors of the Wikipedia page for Fulbert are not caught up in the mythistory of Fulbert and share an excellent perspective.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulbert_of_Falaise
Pollinctores is “a term that seems not to have been clearly understood by French poets writing as early as the late 12th century, who translated it differently. Apparently based on this passage, Wace called Fulbert a tanner/skinner/furrier, while Benoit de Sainte-Maure referred to him as a tailor.” “Indirect evidence makes it unlikely Fulbert occupied such a lowly social status as a mere tanner.” “His daughter Herleva was accepted by the Count of Flanders as a proper guardian for his own daughter, something unlikely were she born to a tradesman.” Regardless of the exact career of Herleve’s parents intended by William de Jumieges (eg, royal forester?), we can be certain that Fulbert is of a qualified family.
There is much to appreciate about “William the Conqueror:” by Douglas, although Eleanor Searle is critical of certain aspects of his work. [Possible History, Speculum, Volume 61, Issue 4]. She provides an insightful and slightly humorous criticism of historians who propagate “mythistory,” including commentary concerning Fulbert.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/epdf/10.2307/2853967
“Our own world views will get in the way of our argument as they inevitably get in the way of our reconstruction of the world views of the past.” Searle is of the same opinion that Fulbert could not possibly have been a low born burgess. She states “I suspect that many historians have rather liked the notion of romantic, helpless, lowborn mistresses. It is only a suspicion, but it makes me wonder whether there are not more ladies who need rescuing from historians.” As an aside, scholars also misunderstand what Orderic meant by his tongue in cheek comment, “raised from the dust.” To Searle’s point, we must let go of modern sensibilities to properly immerse ourselves in a period ten centuries removed.
We have been discussing a passage from a charter of Saint-Wandrille dated to [1035/55] that contains the witnesses “Osbernus avunculus comitis, Walterius fr. Eius...” This charter of Saint-Wandrille concerns a gift of the church of Arques made by William, the Count of Arques, son of Duke Richard II by his second wife Papia. The gift of this church was William’s prerogative. This William is not the young duke as Douglas and many other scholars assert, but rather his uncle, the count (comitis) of Arques. Guillaume of Jumieges names “Richardum...atque Robertum et Willelmum” as the three sons of “dux Richardus” and his wife “Goiffredum Britannorum comitem ...sororem ...Iudith” Another son is archbishop Mauger. Naturally, Count William of Arques is the first to subscribe to the charter as “Will comitis,” followed by his brother Mauger as “Malgerii archiepiscopi.” We also find his other brothers, “Ric et Roberti comitum fratris,” followed by “Osbernus avunculus comitis, Walterius fr. eius.” Walter Giffard also witnesses separately from Osbern’s frater. Witnessing separately, “Walterius fr. eius” and Walter Giffard are two distinct people.
Douglas is clearly mistaken when using the charter of Saint-Wandrille to assert that Osbernus and Walterius are the brothers of Herleve. Instead, Osbern and Walter are the brothers of Papia, the wife of William, Count of Arques. Douglas also points to “Walteri avunculi comites,” contained in a charter catalogued by Fauroux, but this is the same situation. William the Conqueror signed charters prior to the Conquest as Duke of Normandy and not as a count. I haven’t seen the original Latin charter published by Faroux, but this is perhaps the same Walter, uncle of Count William de Arques.
The hereditary office of High Chamberlain of Normandy, charged with management of the offices of the duke’s chamber, was vested in the family of Gerold de Roumare. As an aside, Douglas states that Ralph, son of Gerold of Tancarville, appears as chamberlain as early as 1035. Gerold did have a son Ralph who was chamberlain, but chronologically, the Ralph of 1035 could not have possibly been his son and was more likely Gerold’s uncle or brother. Gerold and another grandson of Turquetil de Neufmarche, Hugh de Grentmesnil, succeed their grandfather as castellan of Neufmarche circa 1065. Gerold’s father is Count Walter le Rous (le Ewrus), [Book of Lacock] while Hugh’s father is named Robert. [Guillaume of Jumieges]
The moniker le Rous (OF) or Rufus (Latin) is the same as used by the descendants of Turquetil’s brother, Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny. Theroulde’s progeny serve in hereditary offices of the king’s chamber in England, including the office of clerk of the privy exchequer (eg, Ansgot Rufus, Ralph Grammaticus I, his son Ralph Grammaticus II aka le Rous, William Pictavensis, Geoffrey de Clinton (William’s son or grandson), Herbert Rufus, Richard Rufus, William Rufus, etc).
In summary, Osbernus and Walterius are likely the brothers of Papia and I find no evidence that Herleve had a brother named Walter. Please correct me if other references exist in support of Douglas’ assertion. Which brings us back to main question …who is the uncle Walter mentioned by Orderic? We find a second, more likely candidate.
Interestingly, Douglas continues, “This Walter had at least two daughters. One named Clara became a nun at Montivilliers.” Although mistaken in several other respects, Douglas is undoubtedly correct that Duke William’s uncle is the same Walter who married a woman who retired to Montivilliers. Crispin and Macary, authors of “Faliase Rolls” leveraged the work of G. A. La Roque "Hist. Geneal. Maison de Harcourt" and other sources to state “Turquetil married Anceline, sister of Toustain, seigneur de Montfort-sur-Risle, and had issue: Anchetil, and Walter de Lescelina who married Beatrice, abbess of Montivilliers, natural daughter of Robert I., Duke of Normandy, as well as Leceline de Turqueville, the wife of William, comte d'Exmes (later(d'Eu), an illegitimate son of the same duke.”
Crispin and Macary appear to have had access to some useful documents that are not always specified. Consequently, some of this history is difficult to validate. Lescelina is probably not a place, but rather the name of Walter’s sister who married Count William d’Eu. But the main point is that “Uncle Walter” married a woman who retires to Montivilliers. This supports his identification as Count Walter le Rous, the son of Turquetil de Neufmarche and grandfather of Gerold de Roumare, forefather of the Tancarvillle chamberlains of Normandy. Crispin and Macary name Beatrice, daughter of Richard I as the nun or abbess of Montivilliers whereas Douglas names the nun Clara. Regardless of the exact identity, women of the ducal family retired to Montivilliers, and one such aunt of Duke William was the wife of Count Walter le Rous.
The Book of Lacock does not specify where Walter was count; only that he was the lord of Roumare. Walter’s moniker is spelled “le Ewrus.” Based on research involving Walter’s kinsmen, we understand that this is equivalent with “le Rous,” which is possibly a variation of “le Riche,” the moniker of Walter’s great grandfather. Walter is the avunculus of Duke William by his marriage to an aunt of Duke William who retired to Montivilliers. Circa 1065, Gerold and another grandson of Turquetil de Neufmarche, Hugh de Grentmesnil, succeed their grandfather as castellan of Neufmarche. Count Walter is obviously dead or retired by this time. Shortly afterward, Walter’s son Gerold witnessed a charter dated Apr 1067 as “Giraldi di Novomercato" under which "Willelmus dux Normannorum Anglorum rex" confirmed rights to the abbey of Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire. Turquetil had another son named Geoffrey, whose son Osbern is often found in context with his first cousin Gerold de Roumare. For example, "Giroldus" gave the "ecclesiam de Rolmare" to Saint-Amand de Rouen with the consent of William I King of England, witnessed by "Osbernus de Novoforo." The chamberlains of Normandy bore arms charged with cinquefoils (five petal flower of the hawthorn bush), likely a canting device for le Rous, as did most of Turquetil’s progeny. We find numerous people testifying to charters as Count Walter during the period of Uncle Walter’s life. With further investigation, we might be able to expand this biography of Count Walter.
We can infer what happened. Turquetil de Neufmarche, hereditary chamberlain of Normandy and guardian of young Duke William, was assassinated in late 1040-early 1041 along with Alain III de Bretagne, Osbern de Crepon and Gilbert de Brionne. Upon his father’s death, the office of hereditary High Chamberlain was subsequently assumed by Count Walter le Rous, who resumed his father’s duty as guardian of the young duke. A paternal kinsman in the generation of Duke William’s grandfather (Duke Richard II or a brother) had a daughter who was married to Count Walter le Rous and subsequently retired to Montivilliers. This obviously makes him an avunculus of Duke William. Most likely, it is this son of Turquetil who Orderic calls “Uncle Walter.”
Regards all,
Michael Harris
Peter Stewart
bit of misinformation in it, but for the record Davis did not "team up"
with Chibnall to translate William of Poitiers (who was a priest trained
in that place, hence bynamed 'Pictavensis', not the father of anyone).
Davis made a literal translation of William's 'Gesta Guillelmi' from the
early-17th-century edition by Duchesne, and after Davis' death Chibnall
(without the aid of psychic teamwork) revised and rewrote this for
publication.
Peter Stewart