Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
Brad Verity
husbands & her children.
CP: "At an early age she m., 1stly, before Nov. 1380"
Saul [p. 26]: "This Joan was a remarkable woman who lived into her
seventies."
This would place Joan's birth prior to 1363, which seems too early.
Her first child was born in 1386, so a birth of about 1370 for Joan,
Baroness Cobham, seems a good guess.
CP: "Sir Robert Hemenhale, of Norfolk, who d. 1391, and was bur. in
Westminster Abbey."
Saul [p. 26]: "Joan's first match had probably been arranged by her
parents. The husband chosen for her was a distinguished Norfolk
knight, Sir Robert Hemenhale of Polstead in Burnham Norton. Hemenhale
died in September 1391 ... For Robert's inquisition, see 'CIPM', xvii,
nos. 62-3 ... In his will Robert had requested burial in the choir of
the Carmelite friary at Burnham (PRO, PROB 11/1, fo.60), but his
wishes were overridden and he was buried at Westminster Abbey, in St.
John the Evangelist's chapel (B. Harvey, 'Westminster Abbey and its
Estates in the Middle Ages', Oxford, 1977, 378). It is unclear what
achievements or connections qualified him for this honour. The family
had a strong military tradition. For evidence of their performance of
military service, see PRO, C76/15m.20 (John Hemenhale, 1340);
C76/38m.17 (Ralph Hemenhale, 1359); C61/82m.7 (Sir William Hemenhale,
1369). Perhaps Robert had a distinguished soldiering record, although
there is no mention of him in the chronicles."
CP: "By him she had a s., William, who d.s.p., after 1391."
Saul [p. 26]: "[Hemenhale died] leaving as his heir a five-year-old
boy William described later as an 'idiot' ... Robert had made an
enfeoffment of his estates in 1389, the purpose of which was clearly
to avoid a wardship ('CCR 1389-92', 90). The ruse was uncovered after
William's death in 1402 ('CIPM', xix, nos. 154-5), and an inquiry
ordered in 1406 ('CPR 1405-8', 304)."
CP: "She m., 2ndly, Sir Reynold Braybrooke, who d.s.p.m.s., at
Middleburg on the Scheldt, 20 Sep. 1405, and was bur. in Cobham
Church."
Saul [pp. 26-7]: "His widow held Radwinter Hall (Essex) and five
Suffolk manors in dower. [footnote: Butler, 'Robert Braybrooke, Bishop
of London (1381-1404) and his Kinsmen', 94-5.] Immediately afterwards,
she married again. Her husband this time was Sir Reginald Braybrooke,
a junior member of an important east-midland family distantly related
to the princess of Wales." Later [p. 239]: "Joan was envisaged as a
sort of bridge between the old world and the new. By the end of the
1380s, after the deaths first of her parents and then of her first
husband, her grandfather [John, 3rd Lord Cobham] had taken her under
his wing. He brought her to live at Cobham. In 1391 he arranged for
her to be remarried to the courtier knight, Sir Reginald Braybrooke."
[p. 27]: "...and in the following year [1405] he [Sir Reginald
Braybrooke] accompanied Thomas of Lancaster to Flanders. On the
latter occasion, during the unsuccessful attack on Sluys, he sustained
a wound that was to prove fatal. Lingering for four months, he died
at Middleburg on 20 September."
Saul: "Her two boys by Braybrooke had both died in early youth ...
There is a definite poignancy in the boys' appearance on the brasses.
The boys' names are given: Reginald and Robert on Braybrooke's (the
elder boy being named after his father)."
CP: "She m., 3rdly, within a year of his death, as 2nd wife, Sir
Nicholas Hawberk, who d. (leaving by her a son, John, who d. an
infant) 9 Oct. 1407, and was bur. in Cobham Church."
Saul [pp. 27-9]: "Joan's next husband was almost certainly found for
her by the king. Sir Nicholas Hawberk, a self-made man of apparently
limited means, had begun his career, like Braybrooke, in the royal
household. He first appears as a king's esquire around 1391, and he
was knighted shortly after. [footnote: 'CPR 1388-92', 487; '1391-6',
205. In Nov. 1390, as simply 'Nicholas Hawberk esquire' (not yet
'king's esquire'), he was pardoned at Baldwin Bereford's behest for a
murder ('CPR 1388-92', 319).] His origins and background are obscure.
He cannot have been related to the Leicestershire gentry family of
Hawberk, for his arms are different. [footnote: The Leicestershire
Hawberks bore 'argent on a bend sable three knots of rings or' (J.
Nichols, 'The History and Antiquities of Leicestershire', 4 vols.;
London, 1795-1811, ii, pt I, 350).] His name suggests that he was
probably of German descent. His coat-of-arms has close affinities
with some German blazons, and the triple mount and chapourny partition
are better accommodated in the context of Rhenish than English
heraldry. [footnote: As noted by Glover, on the evidence of Hawberk's
seal, his arms were 'checky argent and gules, a chief nebulee per fess
gules and or' (Nichols, 'Memorials of the Family of Cobham', 330).] A
reasonable hypothesis may be to see him as a member of the German and
Bohemian retinue that came to England in the wake of Richard II's
marriage to Anne of Bohemia, the emperor's daughter. If the case for
his foreign origin is to be accepted, then he is probably to be
identified with the 'Here Nikel Bergo' whom Richard retained in
December 1393. Whatever lands, grants and offices he picked up in
England, he owed to royal patronage. In 1396 Richard appointed him to
the important offices of sheriff and constable of Flint. [footnote:
'CPR 1396-9', 49.] Eight months later he was given the hand in
marriage of Maud, widow of John, Lord Le Strange of Knockin (Salop)--a
grant which strengthened his position in the Welsh marches. In 1399,
in common with many other of Richard's knights, he successfully
managed the transition to Lancastrian service. The esteem in which he
was held by the new king is indicated by the diplomatic tasks
entrusted to him. In 1401 he accompanied Richard's widow, Isabelle,
on her return to France, and in the following year, perhaps because of
his German origin, he was made one of the escorts for Blanche, the
king's daughter, on her journey to Germany to be married. [footnote:
Waller, 'The Lords of Cobham', 90.] A few years before this, in
September 1400, his wife had died. He was granted custody of her
heir, with the prospect of political and financial gains that this
offered. [footnote: 'CPR 1399-1401', 424.] But in 1405 he landed a
much richer prize: the hand of Reginald Braybrooke's widow, Joan. The
marriage was to be short-lived, however. Nicholas died only two years
later, in 1407." Later, Saul says: "her one son by Hawberk was
stillborn or had died in infancy."
CP: "She m., 4thly, as 3rd wife, before 18 July 1408, Sir John
Oldcastell"
Saul [p. 29]: "At the beginning of 1408 Joan married again. Her next
husband--her fourth--was a Herefordshire knight, Sir John Oldcastle of
Almeley. The match may well have been arranged by the Prince of
Wales."
CP: "She m., 5thly, Sir John Harpeden, who survived her for 24 years,
and d. 1458, being bur. in Westm. Abbey."
Saul [pp. 30-1]: "Joan's fifth and last husband was another soldier.
This was Sir John Harpedon, scion of a Poitevin noble family..."
Later, Saul says [p. 216]: "His family background is obscure. His
name suggests that he was descended from Sir John Harpedon, the
Poitevin knight who was seneschal of Saintongue in the 1370s.
[footnote: For his career, on which the Anonimalle chronicler was
well-informed, see 'The Anonimalle Chronicle 1333 to 1381', ed. V.H.
Galbraith (Manchester, 1927), 115,116,188.] This John Harpedon's son,
another John, acquired the lordship of Belleville and entered French
allegiance, rising to the office of chamberlain to Charles VI.
[footnote: The younger John's French allegiance was noted in his
father's inquisition in 1396: 'CIPM', xvii, no. 289. For the role of
the younger John in French politics, see J.B. henneman, 'Olivier de
Clisson and Political Society in France under Charles V and Charles
VI' (Philadelphia, 1996), 139,203, 312 n.49. He acquired the lordship
of Belleville by his father's marriage to Jeanne, Olivier de Clisson's
sister; for the Clisson genealogy, see ibid. 205.] Although it cannot
be proved, there is a fair likelihood that John Harpedon, Joan's
husband, was this second John's son. [footnote: In his inquisition
post mortem of 1438, his father was said to have been called 'John':
PRO, C139/86/28m.10.] It is conceivable that burial in [Westminster]
abbey was his reward for entering English allegiance."
Saul [p. 218]: "In his final years he [Harpedon] lived in England.
For the duration of his marriage to Joan he had control of the Cobham
and de la Pole inheritances jure uxoris. [footnote: It is not known
when he married Joan. A terminus ante quem of June 1428 is provided
by a reference in Glover's notes to an indenture which he possessed
containing evidences relating to the descent of the Cobham estates:
Nichols, 'Memorials of the Family of Cobham', 341.] But after Joan's
death, he had to live largely on his patrimonial estates, which were
less ample. [footnote: He was lord of Harpsden (Oxon.): 'Feudal Aids',
iv, 200. According to his inquisition, he also held Swinbrook in the
same county (PRO, C139/86/28). In an exchequer court case of 1434 he
was described as 'of Berkshire' (BL, Harley Roll C30); so presumably
he held lands there too. Again according to his inquisition, in
Huntingdonshire he held the former de la Pole manors of Everton and
Offord by life grant from his wife's daughter and her husband Sir
Thomas Brooke. There were no children by his marriage to Joan; his
heir was said to be Isabella, wife of Robert Olyver, esquire, the
daughter of Elizabeth, daughter of Gilbert, brother of Harpedon's
father John (PRO, C139/86/28).]"
Saul [p. 31]: "John survived his elderly wife by a little over four
years. The latter died on 13 January 1434, and her husband in May
1438. [footnote: PRO, C139/86/28: not 1458, as Waller, 'The Lords of
Cobham', 99.]
CP: "In this brass [Joan, Lady Cobham's] her 2nd husband only (by whom
only, apparently, she had surviving issue) is commemorated. On the
brass are no less than 6 sons and 4 daughters."
Saul [p. 31]: "Joan had numerous issue by her first three husbands,
among them a couple of sons by Braybrooke and another by Hawberk.
However, only one of the brood survived to adulthood: Joan, a daughter
by Braybrooke, who became her mother's heiress." Later, Saul says:
"Alongside the figure and above the inscription are two groups of
children--ten in all, six sons and four daughters ... The patron's
purpose in commissioning them is clear: to create the impression of
Joan the fecund mother, the begetter of a great brood. Yet the
reality of her experience was very different. Not only is it highly
unlikely that she ever bore ten children--the plates were presumably
stock issue--but not one of the boys she bore survived to manhood.
When she died in 1434 her heir was her daughter by Braybrooke: which
accounts for her identification as Braybrooke's wife on the epitaph
('uxor domini Reginaldi Braybrook militis'). So this remarkable
brass, with its intense interest in children and virtuoso display of
heraldry, is at one level a celebration of lineage, but another a
study in the concealment of failure."
CP: "Joan, apparently, suo jure Baroness Cobham, only surv. da. and h.
(by the 2nd husband, Sir Reynold Braybrooke), was, at her mother's
death, wife of Sir Thomas Brooke."
Saul [p. 31]: "The responsibility of finding a husband for her [Joan
Braybrooke] was undertaken by Oldcastle. By an agreement made on 20
February 1410 Joan was contracted to marry the son of a west-country
knight, Thomas Brooke. Thomas's father, another Thomas, gave an
undertaking to pay Oldcastle 1,300 marks on the day of the wedding,
which was to take place before Whit Sunday, and in return the Brookes
were assured that Joan Braybrooke, who was aged six, would inherit her
mother's possessions. [footnote: Nichols, 'Memorials of the Family of
Cobham', 392; 'House of Commons', ii, 375-6.]"
So Joan Braybrooke was born in 1403.
Cheers, ------Brad
Reedpcgen
>
>Baroness Cobham, seems a good guess.
If she were age 12 when fully married, a birth of about 1368 would technically
be expected (but reality does not always conform to theory).
Paul
Jim Weber
FWIW,
Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd Edition, p. 382, states that Joan's
father (John de la Pole) died "shortly before 20 Aug 1367", which
would more or less require her to be born in or before 1368. However
PA2 on the very next page (383) states that Joan was still underage
when she married for the 2nd time between Sep 1391 and Feb 1392. It
is unclear which of the indicated sources were used for the two
conflicting pieces of information. Nigel Saul's date of 1380 for John
de la Pole's death might solve the conflict.
Jim Weber
Brad Verity
Jim,
I had a chance at the UCLA Library this afternoon to copy the IPMs for
John, 3rd Lord Cobham, and Sir Robert Hemenhale, and they help shed a
little more light on Joan, Lady Cobham's, birthdate.
> FWIW,
>
> Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd Edition, p. 382, states that Joan's
> father (John de la Pole) died "shortly before 20 Aug 1367", which
> would more or less require her to be born in or before 1368.
I don't know what Faris's source was for John de la Pole's death as
"shortly before 20 Aug. 1367".
> However
> PA2 on the very next page (383) states that Joan was still underage
> when she married for the 2nd time between Sep 1391 and Feb 1392.
It wasn't the Reynold Braybrooke article in Roskell's HOP that was the
source for Faris's above statement. That article neither provides an
estimated birthdate for Joan de la Pole, Baroness Cobham, nor mentions
her being underage at her 1391/2 marriage to Braybrooke.
> It
> is unclear which of the indicated sources were used for the two
> conflicting pieces of information. Nigel Saul's date of 1380 for John
> de la Pole's death might solve the conflict.
Unfortunately, the volume of the Calendar of Fine Rolls covering the
year 1380 was not on the shelf at the UCLA Library, so I could not see
if there was a writ of diem clausit extremum issued for Sir John de la
Pole that year.
However, from the IPM of Sir John de Cobham [3rd Lord Cobham], taken
at London 3 Feb. 1408, "Joan, wife of Nicholas Hawberk, knight, is his
kinswoman and next heir, being the daughter of Joan, his daughter,
aged 30 years and more." The Wiltshire, Kent and Surrey IPMs agree as
to his heir.
So Joan was born prior to 1377. We know her heir by her first husband
Sir Robert Hemenhale was a son William, born about 1386/7, according
to the special 1405/6 Inquisitions taken regarding Sir Robert
Hemenhale. From the Norfolk Inquisition taken at Snettisham 20 Nov.
1406, it was found that Sir Robert Hemenhale was the son and heir of
Ralph Hemenhale, a tenant-in-chief of the king, and became a ward of
Edward III at his father Ralph's death. From a Suffolk Inquisition
taken at Brandon on 23 Nov. 1406, it was found that Katherine
Hemenhale, the mother of Sir Robert Hemenhale, survived her husband
Ralph, and died on 14 Jan. 1390 - her heir in 1406 was her daughter
Joan, wife of Sir Edmund de Thorp, aged 40 years and more. The same
Norfolk and Suffolk Inquisitions found that William Hemenhale, "an
idiot from birth", was the son and heir of Sir Robert Hemenhale, and
was aged four years and more at his father's death on 15 Sept. 1391.
William Hemenhale died 18 Dec. 1402 aged 15 or 16.
Since Joan (de la Pole), Lady Cobham, was a mother in 1386/7, her age
of '30 and more' in Feb. 1408 had to have been off by several years.
It's possible the age indicates she was not yet 40, so born after 1367
- if so, that plus her (presumably) eldest child's birth in 1386/7,
makes 1370 a good estimate for her birth. This, however, would not
make her "still underage" at her 1391/2 marriage to Braybrooke, as
Faris claimed. Indeed, it's impossible for Joan to have been
"underage" in 1391/2, unless the "age" referred to was 21 - and even
then that's stretching it by making her a mother at 14 or under.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, ------Brad
Mark Harry
with the Blewett family of Devon, who according to the visitations
were descended on the female line from Elizabeth, daughter of Sir
Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, via the St Maur family, Elizabeth marrying
John de St Maur and their daughter Joan being said to have married
Walter Blewett.
In a thread dated October 1998 and entitled "CP XIV FitzPayne, Grey
and Bryan part 3" Paul Reed noted that the IPM of Elizabeth (dated
1457) names her son and heir as Thomas de St Maur, then aged 26 and
hence born c. 1431. He also noted that the IPM of her husband John de
St Maur in 1438 named as his son and heir Thomas, then aged 11 and
hence born c. 1427.
Thomas Brooke, father of Elizabeth, was born c. 1391, as he was stated
to have been aged 26 years on the death of his father in 1417/8,
according to an article on the Brookes in "Proceedings of the Somerset
Archaeological and Natural History Society" (vol. 44 part 2, circa
1898). He is said to have had 10 sons and 4 daughters, including
Elizabeth (whose marriage is given, as is that of her daughter Joan to
a Blewett). There is nothing there to suggest that Thomas had a
previous marriage, or that Joan Braybrooke was not the mother of all
his children.
However, after reading Brad's postings and especially his information
that Joan Braybrooke was only 6 in 1410 when her stepfather Sir John
Oldcastle arranged her marriage, how can Joan be Elizabeth's mother?
She would have been 24-28 years old when Thomas de St Maur, her
putative grandson was born!
Does anyone have a solution for this? Was Elizabeth an illegitmate
daughter of Thomas born before his marriage in 1410, or are the dates,
or some of them, wrong? Or was Elizabeth instead a daughter of Sir
Thomas Brooke senior, father of the Thomas who married Joan
Braybrooke?
Chris Phillips
Mark Harry wrote:
> Does anyone have a solution for this? Was Elizabeth an illegitmate
> daughter of Thomas born before his marriage in 1410, or are the dates,
> or some of them, wrong? Or was Elizabeth instead a daughter of Sir
> Thomas Brooke senior, father of the Thomas who married Joan
> Braybrooke?
I'm not sure whether we've reached a consensus, but there's at least there's
a strong possibility that the estimate of Joan's birth date as c. 1304 is
based on an age of "30" given 30 years later, which could have been a "round
figure", indicating she was was in her 30s, or perhaps even older.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
I wrote:
> I'm not sure whether we've reached a consensus, but there's at least
there's
> a strong possibility that the estimate of Joan's birth date as c. 1304 is
> based on an age of "30" given 30 years later, which could have been a
"round
> figure", indicating she was was in her 30s, or perhaps even older.
Sorry - I seem to be having more trouble than usual with this date. Read
"birth date of c. 1404"!
Chris Phillips
Brad Verity
Mark, with Paul Reed announcing a hiatus from the newsgroup, I'll try
and respond as best I can.
> I have been reading this thread with interest, as I have a connection
> with the Blewett family of Devon, who according to the visitations
> were descended on the female line from Elizabeth, daughter of Sir
> Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, via the St Maur family, Elizabeth marrying
> John de St Maur and their daughter Joan being said to have married
> Walter Blewett.
Elizabeth Brooke having a daughter named Joan makes sense, as Joan was
the first name of Elizabeth's mother, Joan (Braybrooke), Lady Cobham.
What is the evidence for this Joan St. Maur/Walter Blewett marriage?
> In a thread dated October 1998 and entitled "CP XIV FitzPayne, Grey
> and Bryan part 3" Paul Reed noted that the IPM of Elizabeth (dated
> 1457) names her son and heir as Thomas de St Maur, then aged 26 and
> hence born c. 1431. He also noted that the IPM of her husband John de
> St Maur in 1438 named as his son and heir Thomas, then aged 11 and
> hence born c. 1427.
Here is the full relevant text from Paul Reed's October 1998 post:
"The IPM of John de St. Maur states that he died Wednesday 16 Oct.
1415. It
also states that he was son of Richard de St. Maur, lord of
Castlekary, and
that John's wife, Margaret, yet living [the inquisition was taken 30
mar. 1416]
daughter of John Erlegh, esquire, held land in Blakeford and
Prestlegh, and the
advowson of Blakeford jointly, by the grant (levied by fine) of
Richard St.
Maur, knight, at the rent of a rose. John also held the manor of
North Molton
and the advowsons of North Molton and Blaketoryton. His heir was his
son John,
aged 6 in 1416."
Now this IPM (of John de St. Maur, the father of Elizabeth Brooke's
husband) is published, I believe, in the most recent volume of CIPMs.
Unfortunately, I have no access to it as the UCLA Library does not yet
have this latest volume. However I believe our newsgroup colleague
Rosie Bevan has ready access and I'll ask her if she can gather any
further details from it.
"5. John St. Maur, son and heir of Margaret, born ca. 1410,"
Since John was a minor when he inherited from his father, there would
be a proof of age for him about 1431 - I'll recheck the Fine, Close
and Patent Rolls and see if there's any mention of him paying homage
to receive livery of his paternal inheritance. The Proof of Age (if
there was one - sometimes the king just let a very favored inheritor
enter his/her lands without one) would also be in the CIPMs, but the
1430s have not yet been published.
"is stated to have
married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Broke [Brooke], and to have
died 17
Hen. VI [before his mother, hence he would not have held her lands].
I'm not clear here what source states that Elizabeth was the daughter
of Sir Thomas Broke.
"John's
IPM says he died seised of 2/3 of the manor f North Molton, etc.
William
Cheyne and Margaret his wife, 'late wife of John de St. Maur, father
of John
named in the writ" held manors and advowsons in dower. John died
Thursday 25
Sep. 1438,"
This death date matches the writ of diem clausit extremum for him from
the Fine Rolls abstract I posted in the 'Birthdate of Edward Brooke'
thread.
"his son and heir Thomas, was aged 11 in 1438."
"The IMP of Elizabeth, widow of John St. Maur, states she d. 6 Aug.
1457, and
that her son and heir Thomas, was aged 26."
OK, this is great - I'm so glad Paul had looked these all up 5 years
ago - it saves me having to comb through the Fine Rolls trying to find
when Elizabeth (Brooke), Dame St. Maur, may have died. I was thinking
she was young enough to remarry after St. Maur's death in 1438, but
apparently she did not.
As for Thomas St. Maur's conflicting ages in his father's and mother's
IPMs, there may be a way to determine when he was born with more
certainty. Since he, like his father, was a minor when he inherited,
there would be a Proof of Age needed for him to enter his father's and
grandmother Margaret's inheritances. Hopefully, we can determine if
one was taken in about 1451, and that (if it still exists) would give
us a more exact birthdate for him.
The IPM of Thomas's grandmother Margaret should also be checked, as it
may provide on him, but it also, unfortunately, is not published.
"She held the manor of
Mighelchurche by the gift [charter dated 23 July 1425] of Sir Thomas
Broke,
knt., deceased, her father. She also held land in North Molton in
dower."
Great, here's the evidence of Elizabeth St. Maur being the daughter of
Sir Thomas Broke. My guess is that she received the manor from her
father as a marriage portion, and 1425 would then be the date she
married St. Maur.
"6. Sir Thomas St. Maur, son and heir, b. ca. 1427-1431, is stated to
have
married Philippa Hungerford, daughter of Sir Edmund Hungerford. He
died 26
Oct. 5 Hen. VII [1489] seised of North Molton, co. Devon, Bakeford,
Presteley,
BEKYNGTON, Rode, Credelyngcote, DURSTON, Babcury, and Pury, co.
Somerset [CIPM
Hen. VII]. His son and heir John, who is stated in the inquisition to
have
married Elizabeth, daughter of Richard Chocke [Choke, knight, of Long
Aston,
co. Somerset, Justice of the Comon Pleas], predeseased him, so his
heir was
found to be that John's son William, aged 19 or 20."
Sir Thomas's IPM is published and the UCLA Library does have both
Henry VII IPM Calendar volumes, so I'll check it when I'm at the
Library tomorrow.
> Thomas Brooke, father of Elizabeth, was born c. 1391, as he was stated
> to have been aged 26 years on the death of his father in 1417/8,
OK, if the elder Sir Thomas Brooke died in 1418, then the one who made
a grant to his daughter Elizabeth in 1425 would have to be the younger
one, husband of Joan Braybrooke.
> according to an article on the Brookes in "Proceedings of the Somerset
> Archaeological and Natural History Society" (vol. 44 part 2, circa
> 1898). He is said to have had 10 sons and 4 daughters, including
> Elizabeth (whose marriage is given, as is that of her daughter Joan to
> a Blewett).
Do you have a copy of this article, Mark? If so, I would pay you for
sending me a copy of it. I don't have access to 'Proceedings of the
Somerset Archaeological and Natural History Society', and that article
seems to be the sole source for the 14 children of Thomas Brooke and
Joan Braybrooke.
> There is nothing there to suggest that Thomas had a
> previous marriage, or that Joan Braybrooke was not the mother of all
> his children.
There was no time for a previous marriage - Brooke was about age 18 in
1410.
> However, after reading Brad's postings and especially his information
> that Joan Braybrooke was only 6 in 1410 when her stepfather Sir John
> Oldcastle arranged her marriage, how can Joan be Elizabeth's mother?
> She would have been 24-28 years old when Thomas de St Maur, her
> putative grandson was born!
Evidence - including the St. Maur posts by Paul Reed that you
referenced - is mounting that the "about 6 in 1410" age for Joan
Braybrooke is incorrect. HOP apparently surmised Joan's age at
marriage by working from an estimated date of birth for her of 1404.
How HOP arrived at that date is unknown, but Douglas Richardson and
Chris Phillips have guessed that they used Joan's age returned in the
1434 IPM of her mother Joan (de la Pole), Lady Cobham (another
unpublished IPM), which makes a lot of sense.
> Does anyone have a solution for this? Was Elizabeth an illegitmate
> daughter of Thomas born before his marriage in 1410, or are the dates,
> or some of them, wrong?
Well, the likeliest explanation is that HOP's estimated birthdate of
1404 for Joan Braybrooke is incorrect. Elizabeth would not have
merited such a good match (the St. Maurs were tenants-in-chief) if she
had been an illegitimate daughter. Her marriage in 1425 - 15 years
after that of her own parents - suggests she was the eldest daughter,
if not eldest child. I'm not so happy with a birthdate of 1427 for
Elizabeth's son Thomas St. Maur. That makes her an awfully young
mother, but perhaps it was actually a year or two later.
> Or was Elizabeth instead a daughter of Sir
> Thomas Brooke senior, father of the Thomas who married Joan
> Braybrooke?
The evidence of the 1425 grant to her of Mighelchurche manor would
seem to rule out this possibility - see above.
Hope this helps. Now we're ready to tackle Elizabeth's purported
daughter Joan St. Maur, wife of Walter Bluett. I find this line
particularly fascinating because Elizabeth Brooke is an unbroken
female-to-female descent from Eleanor of Castile, Queen of England.
Cheers, -----Brad
Patricia Junkin
Zouche properties? Alan la Zouche held North Molton and and William la
Zouche, Blaketoriton. Almeric la. Z. held it in 1314. He had children and
at least one daughter.
"The IPM of John de St. Maur states that he died Wednesday 16 Oct.
> North Molton
> and the advowsons of North Molton and Blaketoryton. His heir was his
> son John,
> aged 6 in 1416."
Pat
----------
>From: bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity)
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
>Date: Mon, Dec 8, 2003, 5:27 PM
Rosie Bevan
The entire published IPM is reproduced below.
"JOHN DE SANCTO MAURO
342 Writ 20 Oct 1415
SOMERSET. Inquisition. Ilchester. 30 March.
John son of Richard de Sancto Mauro, knight, lord of Castle Cary, held
jointly with Margaret his wife, daughter of John Erlegh, to them and the
heirs of their bodies by a grant of Richard his father, by a fine of 1408
[CP 25/1/201/34, no.15], 3 messuages, 8 carucates, 60 a. meadow, 100 a.
pasture and 30 a. wood in Blackford and Prestleigh with the advowson of
Blackford. In Blackford 2 messuages, 5 carucates, 35 a. meadow, 100 a.
pasture and 30 a. wood are held of Elizabeth lady Botreaux, service unknown,
annual value £20; and in Prestleigh, 1 messuage, 3 carucates, 25 a. meadow,
100 a. pasture and 50 a. wood, are held of William Palton, knight, service
unknown, annual value £10.
He died on 16 Oct. last. John the son of Margaret and himself is aged 7
years and more.
343 Writ 24 Nov. 1415
DEVON. Inquisition. Exeter. 19 Dec.
He held the manor of North Molton with knight's fees and the advowsons of
North Molton and Black Torrington to himself and the heirs male of his body
of the king in chief by knight service, by the grant of John Chytterne and
John Bromflet, clerks, to Richard Seymour, knight and Ela his wife, Edmund
Seyntlon, clerk and William de Brythleigh, to them and the heirs male of the
bodies of Richard and Ela with remainder to his right heirs, by a charter
dated 13 Nov. 1378 and shown to the jurors. They held accordingly. Edmund
and and William de Brythlegh died during the lifetime of Richard and Ela,
who had issue Richard, John and Nicholas. Richard the eldest son died
without heirs male. John, the subject of this inquisition, was the 2nd son.
He married margaret, daughter of John Erlegh, esquire, and held the manor
until his death.. Nicholas the third son was captured at Harfleur and held
prisoner in France. he is said to be still alive.
Date of death and heir, aged 6 years and more, as above.
C 138/12, no.36
E 149/105, no.17"
[CIPM XX nos. 342-343]
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <bat...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
<snip>
> Now this IPM (of John de St. Maur, the father of Elizabeth Brooke's
> husband) is published, I believe, in the most recent volume of CIPMs.
> Unfortunately, I have no access to it as the UCLA Library does not yet
> have this latest volume. However I believe our newsgroup colleague
> Rosie Bevan has ready access and I'll ask her if she can gather any
> further details from it.
>
<snip>
Rosie Bevan
John de St Maur was the great great-grandson of Nicholas de St Maur and
Ellen la Zouche, dau. and coh. of Alan la Zouche and Ellen de Segrave. He
held North Molton and Black Torrington by a settlement and male entail
placed on the manors by his grandfather, Richard, in 1378, as established by
my previous post. This meant that they did not return with the bulk of the
estates to the la Zouche family when Alice Seymour married William, Lord
Zouche of Haringworth. The date of John's death would suggest he died in
France shortly after Harfleur; his younger brother had been taken prisoner
there.
The following inquisition explains how the manors passed from the la Zouche
family to the St Maurs.
"191 ALAN LA ZOUCHE, SON OF ROGER LA ZOUCHE
Commission of certiori to Thomas Cheyne, escheator, William Brightelegh,
William Servynton and William Luscote to enquire what estate the said Alan
had at his death in the manor of Northmolton, and to whose hands the manor
has come and who has since received the issues. 25 May, 41 Edward III.
DEVON. Inq. taken before Thomas Cheyne, escheator, William Brithlegh and
William Luscote at Morthmolton, Monday after the translation of St edward
the King, 41 Edward III.
Northmolton. Roger la Souche was seised of the manor, to which the advowson
of the church belonged, in demesne as of fee and right, and gave the same to
Alan la Souche, his son, and Eleanor his son's wife, and the heirs of thei
bodies. Alan and Eleanor were seised thereof and received the profits, and
had issue Maud and Ellen. maud married Robert de Holland, and Ellen Nicholas
Seymore. Afterwards Alan died in seisin of the manor and advowson, and of
other manors in other counties, in 1 Edward II, and Eleanor was in
possession of the manor and advowson for nearly a year after his death. When
she died, the said Robert and Maud and Nicholas and Ellen entered the
aforesaid manor and the other manors, as of the right and inheritance of
Maud and Ellen, and a partition was made between them, so that the manor and
advowson of Northmolton and certain manors in other counties fell to the
pourparty of Nicholas and Ellen, who continued their estate therein for
nearly 8 years, as the jurors believe, and had issue a certain Nicholas
Seymor. Afterwards Nicholas the father died; and after his death Ellen was
in possession of the manor and advowson as her right and inheritance for
nearly a quarter of a year. She afterwards married Alan de Churleton, and
they held the manor for nearly 30 years. Ellen died in seisin thereof, and
after her death Alan de Churleton held it by courtesy of England for nearly
15 years, and died in seisin. After his death the king caused the escheator
to seize the manor into his hand, and by his writ caused it to be delivered
to Nicholas son of Nicholas as son and heir of Ellen, who was in possession
for half a year and died in seisin thereof. After his death the king, by
reason of the minority of Richard, his son and heir, caused the manor to be
seized by the escheator into his hands, and from that time received the
issue thereof until by his letters patent he granted the custody of the
manor and heir to the lady Isabel his daughter until the lawful age of the
heir. The said lady is still receiving the issues."
[CIPM XII no.191]
The following gives the descent of John Seymour taken mostly from CP XI
358-362.
1. Alan la Zouche=Eleanor de Segrave
2.Ellen la Zouche d.1360=Nicholas Seymour (St Maur/Sancto Mauro) d.1316.
She married 2ndly Alan de Charlton
3.Nicholas Seymour d. 1350/1=Muriel Lovel
4.Richard Seymour 3 Sept 1355-15 May 1401=Ela de St Lo d. 8 Feb
1410
5.Richard Seymour d.s.p.m. 6 Jan 1409=Mary Peyvre d. 25 July
1409
6. Alice Seymour b 23 July 1409=William la Zouche of
Haringworth d.1463
5. John Seymour c 1480 -1415=Margaret Erlegh
6. John Seymour c.1409-1438=Elizabeth Brooke d.1457
5. Nicholas Seymour
CP XI 361 has Ela de St Lo dying between 28 Nov 1409 and 13 Feb 1409/10. Her
inquisition [CIPM XIX no.712] says she died on 8 February 1410. It was not
until her death that John Seymour actually gained possession of the manors
of North Molton and Black Torrington.
As an aside, the unfortunate Alice Seymour was born 6 1/2 months after her
father's death and 2 days before her mother's.
Hope this is of use.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <paju...@erols.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
Patricia Junkin
Thank you so much for this information. Almeric/Emeri is my puzzle. The
informatio I have indicates that a William la Zouche inherited Blaketoriton
from his father Alan. This William being the brother of Roger and Ela
Longspee. Almeric then inherits tenure in the property from his father
William.
1313: IPM of Richard de Waumford alias de Wamforde.
Blaketor. the hundred, held of the Emery la Souche by knights service
rendering 13s.4d. yearly p.211
1314 Devon. Inq. 5 May 7 E II [1314] IPM of Alan la Zouche
Kingąs Nymet. The mnor held by Geoffrey de Cornwall in chief by knights
service.
Blaketoriton. The manor held by Emery la Zuche by knights service.
Evidently in 1334 Almaricąs children at his IPM were minors and in the ward
of Alan de Cherlton who had married Helen/Elene la Zouche following the
death of her first husband, Nicholas St. Maur. [I am still searching for
Almeric's IPM.]
Representation of this Helen/Elene/Eleanor vested in William Lord Zouche of
Harryngsworth.
If the property was male entail, then may I presume that Almeric had only
daughters and reversion was to the right heirs of Nicholas and Elene.
Pat
----------
>From: Rosie Bevan <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
>Date: Mon, Dec 8, 2003, 10:21 PM
Mark Harry
which includes quite a lot on the Cobhams as well. I copied it from
the journal when I visited the Westcountry Studies library at Exeter
last year and will be happy to send you a copy.
> > What is the evidence for this Joan St. Maur/Walter Blewett marriage?
As fas as I know to date, only the above article and the Blewett
pedigree as given in Vivian's Visitations of Devon, under "Blewett of
Holcombe Rogus", where Joan the wife of Walter is described as the
daughter of John Maure, or de St Maur, and Elizabeth daughter of
Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham. I am quoting this from memory now.
Walter left an IPM dated 1481. I have seen an abstract of the portions
of it relating to Devon, which was one of a number that were done by
the Devon & Cornwall Record Society and microfilmed by the Mormons.
From memory though there was no mention therein of his wife. However,
there was a mention that there were additional portions relative to
Somerset, which D&CRS did not supply any further details of. I have
not been able to find any transcriptions/abstracts of the same to
date.
Mark
Rosie Bevan
It seems we are looking at three layers of tenure of the same property in
the early 1300s. Amaury would have held of Ellen la Zouche and her
husbands - explaining why his heirs were in the custody of Alan de Cherlton
in 1335. But it also evident by the inquisitions of the Waumfords, that they
were holding of Amaury. As your research indicates, he was alive in 1313
when Richard de Waumford died holding his manor of Whitlegh and the hundred
of Black Torrington, but dead by 1335 when Thomas, son and heir of Richard
de Waumford, died. There is no IPM for Amaury.
It is likely that the heirs of Amaury la Zouche, and Nicholas Waumford, son
and heir of Thomas de Waumford, had not survived by 1378 when the settlement
and entail was made by Richard de Seymour/St Maur, and as this period spans
the Black Death it would not be surprising. The moiety of the la Zouche
inheritance, minus North Molton and Black Torrington, passed back into that
family after five generations of St Maur possession, via Alice de St Maur,
and that is why William, Lord Zouche of Harringworth was Ellen's
representative.
I hope this makes sense.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Junkin" <paju...@erols.com>
To: "Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>; <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
Patricia Junkin
Once again, many thanks. If this Almeric/Emeri was dead in 1335, then the
Almeric/Emeri of Cambridgeshire is yet another man and perhaps the uncle of
this Almeric.
1289 Emery (Almaricus) son and heir of William de la Zusche alias la Zouche
Writ to Peter Heym and Robert de Radington, to enquire whether the said
Emery, who is in the king零 wardship, is of full age as he says, or not 3
May 17 EI [1289]
Devon: Inq. Friday the eve of St. Barnabas 17 E I
The said Emery who was born at Toteleye and baptised in the church of
Blaktoriton
was 21 on th morrow of St. Edmund the king in the year above said.
I have a reference refering to an IPM relating to Almeric/Emeri d. 21 Sept.
1334 wherein the the wardship of his minor children are mentioned. Will need
to re-check this if no IPM exists for him.
Pat
----------
>From: Rosie Bevan <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Cobham of Cobham Corrections - Part 2
>Date: Wed, Dec 10, 2003, 4:59 AM
>
> King零 Nymet. The mnor held by Geoffrey de Cornwall in chief by knights
> service.
> Blaketoriton. The manor held by Emery la Zuche by knights service.
>
> Evidently in 1334 Almaric零 children at his IPM were minors and in the ward
Mark Harry
>
> > > What is the evidence for this Joan St. Maur/Walter Blewett marriage?
>
> As fas as I know to date, only the above article and the Blewett
> pedigree as given in Vivian's Visitations of Devon, under "Blewett of
> Holcombe Rogus", where Joan the wife of Walter is described as the
> daughter of John Maure, or de St Maur, and Elizabeth daughter of
> Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham. I am quoting this from memory now.
Vivian on p 92 of his Devonshire visitations gives Walter's wife as
"Joan. da. to John Maure (St Maure) and Elizabeth his wife, da. of Sir
Thomas Brooke, Kt., Lord Cobham". The source for the entire Blewett
pedigree up to and including this point is given as Harl. MS 889, fo.
271.
Westcote's "View of Devonshire" (p 513), dated circa 1630, tells us
that "Walter Bluet, esq., married Joan, daughter of John St Maur and
Elizabeth his wife, daughter of Thomas Brook, Lord Cobham".
Pole's "Devon", p 208, (contemporary with Westcote) mentions "Walter
Blewet, of Holcombe Rogus, wch by Jone, daughter of John St Maure, had
issue" etc
The descent also appoears in Watney's "Wallop Family", chart 113,
although this certainly would have been derived from one or more of
the above.
Mark