Berthe, Merovingian Princess
Jldimond
Merovingian princess. She is reputed to be the grandmother of Bertrada de
Laon, the wife (ca 740) of Pepin and mother of Charlemagne. What is research,
pro or con, regarding her Merovingian connections? From which Merovingian is
she descended (I've seen Clovis II)? Who are the spouses of Berthe? Martin de
Laon, son of Anseghisel of Metz and St Begga of Landen (seems absurd, for by
some reckonings this is her own uncle), or Norbert d'Aquitaine, or someone
else? Who is the father of child Caribert (aka Haribert, Cambert, etc.), early
count of Laon? Stuart cites ES, deVajay, Levillain v 49-50, and Moriarty 232.
Hope the academic community can help me sort this mess out.
mike stone
>Who are the spouses of Berthe? Martin de
>Laon, son of Anseghisel of Metz and St Begga of Landen (seems absurd, for by
>some reckonings this is her own uncle),
Is there necessarily anything absurd about that?
In later centuries, quite a few Hapsburgs and others marrried their nieces
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
"The English people are like the English beer.
Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire
Leo van de Pas
too
many errors. A more serious source for this subject is "Caroli Magni
Progenies" by Siegfried Rosch, published in 1977 by Degener Verlag.
On page 52 he records his version of the ancestors of Charlemagne :
1.Charlemagne
2.Pepin the younger
3.Bertrada/Berta the Younger/Berta of Laon
4.Charles Martell
5.Chrotrud
6.Heribert/Caribert, Count of Laon
8.Pepin
9.Chalpaida/Alpais
12.NN
13.Berta the Elder, on 23 June 721 (with her son 6) founded the first
convent/monastery at Pruem
16.Ansegisel
17.Begga
26.Hugobert, died 697/698 Seneschall in 693, 694; Pfalzgraf in 697
27.Irmina, died before 710 died as Abbess of Convent Oeren (Trier)
54.NN brother of a Dux Theotaris who owned property in Echternach
and ca.682 made gifts to the monastery of Weissenburg i.E. and died
before 706.
Sadly, I don't see any Merovingian links.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Jldimond <jldi...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 5:53 AM
Subject: Berthe, Merovingian Princess
> Stuart's Royalty for Commoners, line 214, page 158, asserts that Berthe
was a
> Merovingian princess. She is reputed to be the grandmother of Bertrada de
> Laon, the wife (ca 740) of Pepin and mother of Charlemagne. What is
research,
> pro or con, regarding her Merovingian connections? From which Merovingian
is
> she descended (I've seen Clovis II)? Who are the spouses of Berthe?
Martin de
> Laon, son of Anseghisel of Metz and St Begga of Landen (seems absurd, for
by
Kotliar
I think the argument made is that the Count Haribert of Laon was some how a
member of the Merovingians. Why this assertion is made, I don't know. For i
have never seen anything detailing his ancestory.
Fred Tiedemann Croese
Settipani is correct, Berthe de Prüm is a Merovingian Princess.
1. Charlemagne, Roi des Francs 768-800, empereur 800-814.
2. Pépin le Bref, Roi des Francs 751-768.
3. Berthe de Laon, Reine 751-783.
4. Charles Martel, Duc des Francs 717-741.
5. Rotrude
6. Caribert Hardrad de Laon, Comte de Laon.
7. Gisèle (?)
8. Pépin d'Herstal, Maire du Palais 688/90-714.
9. Alpaide
10. saint Liévin, évêque de Trèves.
11. Willigarde
12. N.N.
13. Berthe de Prüm
16. Ansegisel, domestique.
17. Begga, abbesse d'Andenne.
18. Childebrand, dignitaire.
20. Guérin, Comte de Paris 654-676.
21. Gunzie, soeur de Basin évêque de Trèves.
22. Théodon, Duc de Bavière 682/690-716.
23. Folchaide, Duchesse de Bavière.
24. Hugobert, sénéchal 693, comte du Palais 697.
25. Irmine, abbesse d'Oeren.
26. Thierry III, Roi de Bourgogne (670 & 673), Roi de France (690-691).
27. Clothilde Dode, Reine des Francs, régente 690/1 - 5 juin 692.
51. N.N.
52. Clovis II, Roi des Francs de Neustrie 640-657.
102. Dagobert I, Roi des Francs 629-639.
103. Ragentrude
104. Dagobert I, Roi des Francs 629-639.
105. Nantilde
--
Fred Tiedemann Croese
E-Mail: f...@bart.nl
Genealogical Home Page (5400 individuals):
http://www.bart.nl/~ftc/index.html
Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:00d201bf2d7c$3db17d60$bf3e3bcb@leo...
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> >From: jldi...@aol.com (Jldimond)
>
> >Who are the spouses of Berthe? Martin de
> >Laon, son of Anseghisel of Metz and St Begga of Landen (seems absurd, for by
> >some reckonings this is her own uncle),
>
>
> In later centuries, quite a few Hapsburgs and others marrried their nieces
Yes, but we are not talking about the Hapsburgs and others in later
centuries.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> > too
> > many errors. A more serious source for this subject is "Caroli Magni
> > Progenies" by Siegfried Rosch, published in 1977 by Degener Verlag.
> >
> > On page 52 he records his version of the ancestors of Charlemagne :
> >
> > 1.Charlemagne
> >
> > 2.Pepin the younger
> > 3.Bertrada/Berta the Younger/Berta of Laon
> > 6.Heribert/Caribert, Count of Laon
> > 12.NN
> > 13.Berta the Elder, on 23 June 721 (with her son 6) founded the first
> > convent/monastery at Pruem
> > 26.Hugobert, died 697/698 Seneschall in 693, 694; Pfalzgraf in 697
> > 27.Irmina, died before 710 died as Abbess of Convent Oeren (Trier)
> > Sadly, I don't see any Merovingian links.
>
> I think the argument made is that the Count Haribert of Laon was some how a
> member of the Merovingians. Why this assertion is made, I don't know. For i
> have never seen anything detailing his ancestory.
The traditions of Merovingian descent for this family are not base on
the parentage of Hugobert, but on an alternative parentage for Bertha
and her kin. Chaume argues that Bertha (the elder), Plectrude, and the
other siblings were instead children of one of the Merovingian kings.
This proposal has since largely fallen out of favor.
taf
Settipani
The ancestry of Berta, merovingian or not, can be the subject of a
lenghty book. But in a few words, I can give the reason which make
probable, for Chaume (who nerver make of Plectrude a merovingian
princess), and others, including myself, her merovingian affiliation :
We know that the villa of Rommersheim is the common property, inherited
of their respective fathers, of King Pippin and his wife Berta, daughter
of count Charibert.
So, given merovingian successoral practice, one person have two
children, one being Pippin’s father ancestor and the other Berta’s
father ancestor.
Otherwise, we know that Rommersheim was previously in the hands of Berta
« of Prum » and that she had in 721 one only surviving son named
Charibert.
So the first conclusion is that Berta’s son Charibert is the same that
Charibert, father of queen Berta. The second is that Berta of Prum was
akin of Charles Martel. E. Hlawitschka has build an elaborate theory
which make of Berta the sister of Plectrude, the second wife of Pippin,
charles’father. He denied so merovingian ancestry for Berta. So the
standard theory. But this theory is a misconception. He does so only
because he fails to find a « natural » link between Berta of Prum and
Charles Martel on the ground of ecclesiastical prohibitions. But this
failure is due to his inadequate search..
Merovingian blood for Berta is expected for onomastic reasons (her name
<Berta>, her son’s name <Charibert>, her grandson name <Theoderic> are
all merovingian names). And this explain the merovingian names given by
Charlemagne to is children (not only first sons, Clovis and Clotaire,
but another son, Theoderic, and a daughter, Clotilde).
A good explanation is that one :
The king Theoderic III has a wife Doda. This Doda could be a daughter of
Ansegisel, son of another Doda. So, Ansegisel, presumably share
Rommersheim between his son, Pippin of Herstal and his daughter Doda,
king Theoderic’s wife. Then Pippin’s son, Charles Martel inherited that,
and so Berta, Doda’s daughter. This explain why King Clothar IV, son of
Theoderic III, was called the cousin of Charles Martel in Ademar of
Chabannes’ chronicle.
CS
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> But in a few words, I can give the reason which make
> probable, for Chaume (who nerver make of Plectrude a merovingian
> princess),
Thanks for the correction. I was thinking that he mentioned multiple
siblings, but it wa Rolent, the ancestress of William of Gellone who he
also placed in this family.
taf