Descent From Edward I for Susannah York?
Brad Verity
Susannah York (1939-2011)? The obituary of her father, businessman
and genealogist Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher (1910-2002),
mentions that he submitted a claim that he was a co-heir to the Barony
of Grey of Codnor:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article1171008.ece
I would imagine that makes them descended from the Plantagenets,
either Edward III or Edward I, but I don't have the details at hand on
the Barony of Grey of Codnor.
Susannah York is not currently in Leo's database. I was wondering if
anyone else has researched her ancestry.
Thanks and Cheers,
---Brad
WJho...@aol.com
these two, perhaps more, fought over the abeyance. That is they presented
competing claims. Too bad this page doesn't discuss that in any detail.
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/GreyCodnor1397.htm
Brad Verity
Thanks for the link, Will. Thomas Cornewall of Burford, the husband
of Elizabeth Lenthall, whose issue became (apparently) senior co-heirs
to the Barony of Grey of Codnor, was definitely descended from Edward
I:
Edward I
1) Elizabeth m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford
2) Eleanor de Bohun m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond
3) Pernell Butler m. Gilbert Talbot, 3rd Lord Talbot
4) Richard Talbot, 4th Lord Talbot m. Ankarette Lestrange
5) Alice Talbot (c.1390-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, Heir of
Rotherwas (d. 1420)
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1415-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, Heir of
Burford (c.1382-1435)
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (d. c.1473) m. Elizabeth Lenthall
If Simon Fletcher was a descendant of this couple, as the current
Baron Grey of Codnor is, then he and his daughter Susannah had at
least one line from Edward I.
Cheers, ----Brad
WJho...@aol.com
between whom the barony went into abeyance) linked up here.
They are called "Eleanor, Lady Newport and Elizabeth, Lady Zouche"
Does someone have a source to tell us the names of both of their husbands?
W
John
The obit for Simon Fletcher cited by Brad indicates that Fletcher was
unable to satisfactorily prove his claim to the barony of Grey of
Codnor. But it would still be interesting to see what his claim was
based on.
Unfortunately the Grey of Codnor article in the final published
edition of BP shows only the descent of the successful claimant and
not any other claimants. CP is no real help either, only identifying
the three potential heirs as of 1496 when the barony went into
abeyance. It's interesting that it was the senior representative of
the third of the three original co-heirs that won out - perhaps
because he had the most money to devote to the matter? I'm pretty
sure that there are living representatives of the other two co-heirs -
but maybe nobody else cared....
WJho...@aol.com
http://books.google.com/books?id=gLEKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA630
The peerage and baronetage of the British empire as at present existing
page 630
that this Robert Baron Zouche was also a claimant, in his time I suppose.
Maybe linking him up can lead to new connections being spotted.
David Daniell
". . . . in fact Mr Fletcher makes neither claim, it is apparent from the averments in his petition that he could not be a co-heir because there are in life issue of his father's elder half-brother, Edward Fletcher."
Don't believe every journalist gets it right.
David
> -------------------------------
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David Daniell
Lucy de Grey married Sir Rowland Lenthall of Bessels Leigh
Eleanor, Sir Thomas Newport of High Ercall
Elizabeth, Sir John La Zouche of Bulwick Northamptonshire
Evidence was presented that eleven co-heirs are in existence, they were:
". . . the representatives and co-heirs of the said Lucy Lenthall are now:
Charles Legh Shuldham Cornwall-Legh, the petitioner
John Nicholas Hatfield Brooks
James Assheton Frankland, Lord Zouche of Haryngworth
John Fitzroy Pechell Somerset
Edmund Patrick Donovan
John William Spillane
Sylvia Inis Hough
Reginald James Lashley
Lucy Josephine Phenix
Margaret Mary Bigelow
Catherine Florence Howell
with the heirs, if any, of Mary, younger daughter of 11th Lord Zouche
. . . the representative and co-heir of the said Eleanor Newport is now Richard Thomas Orlando Bridgeman, Earl of Bradford
. . . . the said Elizabeth Zouche had issue but that it is now not known whether any descendant of such issue now exists."
(i.e. private but in fact Wylde and Fletcher, these descendants had elected to withdraw their prior claims successfully defended for near two centuries)
=================================
LDS Library catalog
The Fletcher collection, ca.1160-ca.1982 : notes for the pedigrees of Fletcher and other related families in various counties of England
Fletcher's indefatigable research, revived initially by his father, was microfilmed by the LDS in 1984 and may be accessed on these films:
1239236-1239244
1239265-1239270
1239420-1239421
But those documents directly related to recent members of his own family and his client the Wylde family were not filmed being withheld until the expected claim by the Legh family - which did not take place until 1988 when the Wylde family elected to withdraw their claim.
These documents are now presumably in the possession of Ms York's children or brother.
David
WJho...@aol.com
ddan...@xtra.co.nz writes:
> . . . . the said Elizabeth Zouche had issue but that it is now not known
> whether any descendant of such issue now exists."
> (i.e. private but in fact Wylde and Fletcher, these descendants had
> elected to withdraw their prior claims successfully defended for near two
> centuries)
>
>
Thanks. Could you explain this last remark a little more? I assume this
is your private remark to us, not part of the record you quote.
Will
Tony Hoskins
Brad Verity
> The following information may assist. The first portion is from the published report of the Committee for Privileges
>
> Lucy de Grey married Sir Rowland Lenthall of Bessels Leigh
> Eleanor, Sir Thomas Newport of High Ercall
> Elizabeth, Sir John La Zouche of Bulwick Northamptonshire
> . . . . the said Elizabeth Zouche had issue but that it is now not known whether any descendant of such issue now exists."
> (i.e. private but in fact Wylde and Fletcher, these descendants had elected to withdraw their prior claims successfully defended for near two centuries)
David,
Thank you for this information. Am I right in understanding that
Susannah York's father claimed a descent from the co-heiress Elizabeth
Grey & her husband Sir John la Zouche, not from the co-heiress Lucy
Grey Lenthall, from whom the current Baron Grey of Codnor descends?
Leo has started on this descent for his database, and I sent him the
following info I've gathered so far on Susannah York's maternal
ancestry, which is also interesting, with lines that may be able to be
traced back to the medieval era. I'll share it here in case anyone
else wants to dig further:
Susannah Yolande Fletcher [Susannah York] (born 9 January 1939,
Chelsea, London; died 15 January 2011, Royal Marsden Hospital, London)
1) Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher
married 1st 16 November 1933 (divorced by 1942)
2) Joan Nita Mary Bowring (born 20 January 1911, Nicosia, Cyprus;
married 2nd, 1943, Adam M. Hamilton)
3)
4)
5) Walter Andrew Bowring, CBE, Administrator of Dominica 1933-1935
(born 30 November 1875, Hastings, Sussex; died 3 November 1950)
married 3 November 1909, All Saints church, Ennismore Gardens,
London
6) Nita Maud Howey (born 25 November 1887)
11) John Charles Bowring, of Larkbeare, Devon (born 24 March 1821,
London; died 20 June 1893, Weybridge, Surrey)
married 2nd, 24 March 1866, Holy Trinity church, Paddington,
London
12) Mary Furlonger (born 25 March 1843, London)
13) John Edwards Werge Howey, of Pyt House, Tisbury, Wiltshire, Major
Bengal Army (born 20 November 1843; died 1924)
married 2nd
14) Frances Douglas Frere Presgrave (born 14 September 1859,
Kurrachee, Maharashtra, India; died)
23) Sir John Bowring, of Claremont, Devon, M.P. Kilmarnock 1835; M.P.
Bolton 1841 (born 17 October 1792, Exeter, Devon; died 23 November
1872, Claremont)
married 1st, 12 October 1816, Hackney, Middlesex
24) Maria Lewin (born 24 March 1794; died 26 September 1858, Taunton,
Somerset)
25) Charles John Furlonger, of Hyde Park, London
26) Mary Ann Beard
27) Edwards Werge Howey, surgeon, of Bromyard, Herefordshire (born 8
September 1808, Beadnell, Northumberland; died 25 October 1881)
28) Marianne Wight (born 5 December 1810; died 14 January 1882)
29) Duncan Kyd Presgrave
married 10 September 1849, Bareilly, West Bengal, India
30) Mary Isabella Brooke
So far nothing that indicates a Plantagenet descent. The Bowrings can
be traced two generations further back thru their pedigree in Volume 6
of the Visitation of England and Wales:
http://www.archive.org/details/visitationofengl06howa
Thanks again to everyone who has helped with this topic.
Cheers, -----Brad
Graham Milne
So why was he party to the case in the first place?
David Daniell
David
Brad Verity
> 29) Duncan Kyd Presgrave
> married 10 September 1849, Bareilly, West Bengal, India
> So far nothing that indicates a Plantagenet descent.
Thanks to the research of Michael Andrews-Reading, which he has given
me permission to share, there is a probable descent for Susannah York,
through her above maternal ancestor, Duncan Kyd Presgrave, from James
V of Scotland & Henry VII of England. The details from Michael are as
follows:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Brad I think there is some interesting ancestry behind (29) Duncan
Kyd Presgrave. A submitted IGI entry asserts that he was born in India
in 1828, son of Duncan and Susannah.
The father would seem to be the one of this name whose MI in South
Africa is recorded thus:
Lt. Col. Duncan PRESGRAVE Died 11-07-1841. Aged 50 years. Member of
Bengal Army.Somerset Road Cemetry, Cape Town, Cape.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/INDIA/2004-04/1082213548
The mother is said here to have been Susanna Leigh:
http://www.kindredkonnections.com/ancestry/India/Married-1831/Pr/Presgrave-family/Duncan-Presgrave-st001582-88474.html
A quick search on Google Books will find the Gentleman's Magazine
reference to her death in Brussels in 1844:
I believe the elder Duncan Presgrave is to be identified as the one of
that name baptised at Bourne, Lincs in 1785 (per IGI), son of Edward
and Ann Presgrave, notwithstanding the age given above for his death
in 1841 (perhaps his MI reads 56 rather than 50).
There was a reference in The Genealogists Magazine in 1950 indicating
that the SOG had received a chart showing the purported descent from
King William I of "Ann wife of Edward Presgrave" (she is said to have
lived 1765-1825):
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=YCo9AQAAIAAJ&q=%22edward+presgrave%22+bourne&dq=%22edward+presgrave%22+bourne&hl=en&ei=4oE3TdO1Jsyxcf3vxf8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw
Edward's parents were an earlier Edward Presgrave (d 1759) and his
wife Eleanor, named in a legal suit of 1771:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZE0ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA2704&dq=%22edward+presgrave%22+bourne&hl=en&ei=4oE3TdO1Jsyxcf3vxf8B&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
The younger Edward was baptised at Bourne in 1754, according to the
IGI. He married at St Alphege's Greenwich (I have seen a photo of the
parish register entry on Ancestry.co.uk) on 5 February 1783 and his
wife's maiden name was Ann Clerk. She is said at various online sites
to have been a descendant of Dr John Clerk and Margaret Rattray - this
couple were married in 1720 per Burke's, and had a son Duncan (Clerk)
and a son who served with the HEIC:
Two of the sons (Thomas Clerk, 1770, and General Robert Clerk, 1797)
had wills proved at the PCC - I haven't looked at these. My guess is
that Ann Clerk was a granddaughter of Dr John Clerk and Margaret
Rattray. Since "Duncan Clerk" was a witness to the Presgrave-Clerk
marriage in 1783, it is most likely that Ann was his daughter, but
this is of course not certain.
You will see that Margaret Clerk nee Rattray has some interesting
ancestry. Her mother was the Hon. Margaret Galloway, daughter of the
2nd Lord Dunkeld, while her paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Hay,
daughter of Sir George Hay of Megginch. Her paternal paternal great
grandmother was the Hon. Anne Drummond, daughter of the 2nd Lord
Maderty and his wife Margaret Leslie. This latter couple will be found
in Genealogics. Margaret Leslie's maternal grandfather was Robert
Stewart, Earl of Orkney, the illegitimate son of King James V who was
of course a grandson of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, and thus
possessed of multiple Plantagenet ancestors.
I therefore propose a tentative line thus:
King James V
1. Robert, Earl of Orkney
2. Lady Jean Stewart
3. Hon. Margaret Leslie
4. Hon. Anne Drummond
5. James Rattray
6. Thomas Rattray
7. Margaret Rattray
8. (Duncan?) Clerk
9. Ann Clerk
10. Duncan Presgrave
11. Duncan Kyd Presgrave
12. Frances Presgrave
13. Nita Howey
14. Joan Bowring
15. Susannah York
Cheers, Michael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, Michael, and thanks again to everyone who's helped with this
topic.
Cheers, ------Brad
ian
How about the following as a royal descent for Susannah York?
Continuing from the above-mentioned Duncan Kyd Presgrave:
Duncan Kyd Presgrave
Lt Col Duncan Presgrave (1784-1841) m. Susannah Leigh
Ann Clerk m. Edward Presgrave
Duncan Clerk m. Ann Brown
Margaret Rattray (1702-1744) m. John Clerk, of Listonshiels
Rt Rev Thomas Rattray, of Craighall, Bp of Brechin and Dunkeld
( -1743) m. Hon. Margaret Galloway ( -1737)
James Rattray, of Craighall ( -1684) m. Elizabeth Hay
Hon Anne Drummond m. Patrick Rattray, of Craighall
Margaret Leslie ( -1668) m. John Drummond, 2nd Lord Maderty
( -1649/51)
Lady Jean Stewart m. (1st husband) Patrick Leslie, Lord Lindores
( -1608)
Robert Stewart, Earl of Orkney (1533-1593) m. Lady Jean Kennedy
( -1598)
James V, King of Scots by his mistress Eupheme Elphinstone
The descent of Duncan Clerk from James V follows the line set out by
Paul Theroff in his file on the descendants of Henry VII; so I presume
there are no problems with it, whereas I've derived the descent of the
Presgraves from Duncan Clerk from various postings and websites on the
Internet. I realize therefore that it may be erroneous; so I offer it
as a possibility (rather than as a statement of fact or certainty)
that others may wish to investigate further.
As for the ancestry of Susannah York's father Simon William Peel
Vickers Fletcher, the first thing to note is that there is no one of
that name in the GRO Birth indexes. The reason is that he started life
as William Peel Fletcher; the additional names must have been added at
some point later. We can see that this is the case from his entry on a
list of 'vexatious litigants' at www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/vexatious_litigant/
(I don't know whether this link will work; it may have to be typed
into the browser) where his name is given as 'FLETCHER, Simon William
Peel Vickers (aka FLETCHER, Vel William Peel)'. Obviously 'vel' is
Latin for 'or' but someone has failed to understand that and thought
it was part of his name!
Using the census, BMD indexes and the IGI, it's possible to flesh out
some of his ancestry as follows:
1. Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher
2. William Fletcher (1875- )
3. Mary Margaret Martin
4. William Fletcher (bapt 17th March 1831 Derby - death registered Oct/
Nov/Dec 1901)
5. Fanny Peel (bapt 21st July 1836 Derby- probably 1926) [2nd wife of
the preceding]
8. Samuel Fletcher ( - possibly 1840)
9. Mary Wheeldon
10. William Peel (bapt 25th Dec 1794 Kirk Langley, Derbyshire - 30th
Dec 1862) [source for the date of death is the Derby Mercury]
11. Esther Thorpe (bapt 1795 Derby - probably 1865)
20. Nathaniel Peal m. 1791 at Kirk Langley
21. Elizabeth Ambrose
22. Joseph Thorpe m. June 1794 at Derby
23. Esther Wheatcroft (bapt 9th Nov 1769 at Breadsall, Derbyshire -
probably 1857)
46. Samuel Wheatcroft m. 1st Jany 1744/5 at Swarkeston, Derbyshire
47. Elizabeth Roe or Lee
Nos. 22 & 23 also had a dau Fanny who was the wife of my gtgtgtgt-
uncle Adam Brindley; hence my interest. I expect it would be possible
to extend this list of answers if anyone has the time and inclination
to do so.
David Daniell
This list in itself does not rank (potential) claims in any order of priority though of course the petitioner, with his ancestress, is listed first.
As they made no objection to the termination in favour of the petitioner there was no need to rank them.
They were all, at that point, ranked equally and, possibly, were arranged within their individual families.
re Fletcher's personal position.
The following relates to his representations to the Committee for Privileges and the Lords of Appeal:
" . . . . . Mr Fletcher could only be heard if he claimed either to be a co-heir of the last Lord Grey of Codnor, or claimed that he would otherwise suffer an injustice if the petitioner's claim to co-heirship were upheld. In fact, Mr Fletcher makes neither claim. It is apparent from the averments in his petition that he could not be a co-heir because there are in life issue of his father's elder half-brother, Edward Fletcher. Furthermore, it is clear that there were several more senior collaterals who may have had issue, which issue would cut out that of Edward Fletcher*. In these circumstances your Lordships ruled that he should not be heard. However it is proper to point out that Mr Fletcher has performed a valuable service to this Committee by his diligence in discovering and drawing to the attention of the Crown and the petitioner certain documentary material which is relevant to the principal problem with which the petitioner has to deal and to which I shall refer in detail later**. Counsel for the petitioner very properly placed before the Committee Mr Fletcher's material, so that we were enabled to give full consideration to it.
*Wylde
**heraldic documents from the records of the College of Arms supporting the view that Elizabeth wife of Sir John La Zouche of Bulwick Northamptonshire was not her mother's only daughter.
David
> -------------------------------
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bluemoo...@gmail.com
I am aware of some history from Lincolnshire for Edward Presgrave as well as my father telling me about us having Royal family history.
It would appear that Susannah York is also related.
I also knew about family in the Bengals in India. I had a great uncle Edward who also died in Sth Africa near Namibia who had been in the Boar war but after the war he became a helper to the Bushman. I was sent a book written about his story by a Professor in Sydney Australia.
The name Edward Presgrave was continued down the line to my uncle (Ted) Edward Morton Presgrave who was my father's (Cecil Herbert Presgrave) youngest brother. Francis Morton Presgrave was my grandfather.
Arthur George Presgrave the eldest.. Lionel Presgrave Cecil Herbert Alice May & Edward Morton Presgrave. Mary Kate Robson was my grandmother wife of Francis Morton Presgrave born in London.
I have wanted to learn more about my family however the ancestry sites do not give much information.
My name is Robyn June Presgrave
I would be most thankful if any more information was available.
Kind Regards
Robyn J Presgrave
David Daniell via
I will send Susannah York’s multiple descents from Edward I off-list but it will be a few days before I can get to doing that.
David
Colin Withers via
With regard to a certain entry on the Patent Rolls, CPR 1401-5, p. 249,
in 1403, concerning an alienation in mortmain to the Gild of St Cross,
Stratford-upon-Avon, the king grants a licence allowing the alienation,
to fund, among other things, two chaplains to celebrate divine service,
daily, for “the good estate of the king and his consort Joan, queen of
England, and the king’s clerk Nicholas de Bubbewyth”.
However, several authors* claim that Nicholas Bubwith was the King’s
Chaplain in 1403 and it would appear that these claims originate in
William Dugdale’s The Antiquities of Warwickshire Illustrated..., 1651,
p. 522. Dugdale translates the same entry from the Patent Rolls as “for
the good estate of the said K. H.4 Queen Joan his Consort, of Nich. de
Bubbewith the said King’s Chaplain”.
I have now checked the original entry on the Patent Rolls, and it says:
"et dil[e]c[t]i cl[er]ici Nichi de Bubbewyth"
Given that Nicholas Bubbewyth was a Chancery clerk from 1379, and a
Clerk of the First Form in Chancery in 1399, can I take it the modern
translation of 'clerici' as 'clerk' is correct, and that Dugdale's
translation as 'chaplain' is incorrect, given also that other references
in the same Patent Roll entry use capellanus when referring to the two
chaplains celebrating divine service.
Thanks
Wibs
* e.g.
Wylie, James Hamilton. (2013). pp. 128-9. History of England Under Henry
the Fourth Henry (Vol. 3)
Cassan, Stephen Hyde (1829), p. 206. Lives of the Bishops of Bath and Wells
Holmes, Thomas Scott (1914), Vol I, p. xxi, Somerset Record Society, Vol
XXIX, The Register of Nicholas Bubwith, Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1407-1424
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Tompkins
Sent: 24 February 2016 17:25
>
> With regard to a certain entry on the Patent Rolls, CPR 1401-5, p. 249,
in 1403, concerning an alienation in mortmain to the Gild of St Cross,
Stratford-upon-Avon, the king grants a licence allowing the alienation,
to fund, among other things, two chaplains to celebrate divine service,
daily, for “the good estate of the king and his consort Joan, queen of
England, and the king’s clerk Nicholas de Bubbewyth”.
>
> However, several authors* claim that Nicholas Bubwith was the King’s
Chaplain in 1403 and it would appear that these claims originate in
William Dugdale’s The Antiquities of Warwickshire Illustrated..., 1651,
p. 522. Dugdale translates the same entry from the Patent Rolls as “for
the good estate of the said K. H.4 Queen Joan his Consort, of Nich. de
Bubbewith the said King’s Chaplain”.
>
> I have now checked the original entry on the Patent Rolls, and it says:
"et dil[e]c[t]i cl[er]ici Nichi de Bubbewyth"
>
> Given that Nicholas Bubbewyth was a Chancery clerk from 1379, and a
Clerk of the First Form in Chancery in 1399, can I take it the modern
translation of 'clerici' as 'clerk' is correct, and that Dugdale's
translation as 'chaplain' is incorrect, given also that other references
in the same Patent Roll entry use capellanus when referring to the two
chaplains celebrating divine service.
>
________________________________________
Hello Colin,
Yes, clericus should always be translated as clerk. All chaplains were clerks, but not all clerks were chaplains.
Matt Tompkins
John Higgins
> Hello Robyn.
> I will send Susannah York's multiple descents from Edward I off-list but it will be a few days before I can get to doing that.
> David
>
>
> > On 24/02/2016, at 9:05 pm, bluemoon.oakley via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello & thankyou for this information I came across accidently while searching my Presgrave family.
> > I am aware of some history from Lincolnshire for Edward Presgrave as well as my father telling me about us having Royal family history.
> >
> > It would appear that Susannah York is also related.
> >
> > I also knew about family in the Bengals in India. I had a great uncle Edward who also died in Sth Africa near Namibia who had been in the Boar war but after the war he became a helper to the Bushman. I was sent a book written about his story by a Professor in Sydney Australia.
> >
> >
> >
> > The name Edward Presgrave was continued down the line to my uncle (Ted) Edward Morton Presgrave who was my father's (Cecil Herbert Presgrave) youngest brother. Francis Morton Presgrave was my grandfather.
> > Arthur George Presgrave the eldest.. Lionel Presgrave Cecil Herbert Alice May & Edward Morton Presgrave. Mary Kate Robson was my grandmother wife of Francis Morton Presgrave born in London.
> >
> > I have wanted to learn more about my family however the ancestry sites do not give much information.
> >
> > My name is Robyn June Presgrave
> > I would be most thankful if any more information was available.
> >
> > Kind Regards
> > Robyn J Presgrave
> >
> >
> >
D. Spencer Hines
that it has to be done off-list?
Even more to the point, if Leo has it right at Genealogics, and he usually
does, Susannah York is a descendant of Henry VII -- and of course when it
comes to Royal Ascents and Descents -- descent from the *most recent* Royal
is the way one scores points in this game. So one descent from Henry VII
beats 28 from Edward I hands down.
Still, we should see the 28 because they may well lead to other fruitful
connections.
Of course it goes without saying that if one descends from Henry VII one
also descends from Edward I, et alii.
Here is the alleged descent from Henry VII, based on Leo's data from his
Most Excellent Genealogical Site.
Relationship Chart
HENRY VII King of England is the 15th great-grandfather of Susannah Yolande
Fletcher
Common Ancestor
* HENRY VII King of England
(1457-1509)
* Elizabeth Plantagenet Heiress of York
(1466-1503)
Married 18 Jan 1486
|
|
JAMES IV Stewart King of Scotland
(1473-1513)
* Margaret Tudor Queen Consort of Scotland
(1489-1541)
Married 8 Aug 1503
|
|
* JAMES V Stewart King of Scotland
(1512-1542)
Mary de Guise
(1515-1560)
Married 9 May 1538
|
|
* Robert Stewart Earl of Orkney
(1533-1593)
Lady Janet Kennedy
(Cir 1542-1598)
|
|
Patrick Leslie of Pittcairly 1st Baron Lindores
(Cir 1557-1608/1608)
* Lady Jean Stewart
(1642- )
|
|
John Drummond 2nd Baron Maderty
(Cir 1588-1649)
* Margaret Leslie
Married 30 Apr 1609
|
|
Patrick Rattray of Craighall
(Cir 1618-Cir 1677)
* Anne Drummond
|
|
* James Rattray of Craighall
( -1684)
Elizabeth Hay
|
|
* The Most Reverend Thomas Rattray Bishop of Dunkeld, Primus
of The Scottish Episcopal Church
(Cir 1683-1743)
The Honourable Margaret Galloway
( -1737)
|
|
John Clerk of Listonshiels
(1689-1757)
* Margaret Rattray
(1702- )
Married 1720
|
|
* Duncan Clerk
(1731-1791)
Ann Brown
|
|
Edward Presgrave
* Ann Clerk
|
|
* Lieutenant Colonel Duncan Presgrave British Army
Susanna Leigh
|
|
* Duncan Kyd Presgrave
Mary Isabella Brooke
Married 10 Sep 1849
|
|
Major John Edwards Werge Howey British Army
(1843-1924)
* Frances Douglas Frere Presgrave
|
|
Walter Andrew Bowring C.B.E.
(1875-1950)
* Nita Maud Howey
(1887-1950)
Married 3 Nov 1909
|
Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher
* Joan Nita Mary Bowring
(1911- )
Married 16 Nov 1935
|
|
* Susannah Yolande Fletcher
(1939-2011)
Me ke aloha pumehana,
D. Spencer Hines
"Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is
responsible for everything he does. Freedom is what you do with what's been
done to you. If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company.
Existence precedes and rules essence. There is only one day left, always
starting over: it is given to us at dawn and taken away from us at dusk.
Hell is other people."
Jean Paul Sartre [1905-1980] Nobel Prize in Literature 1964 [Refused]
"John Higgins" wrote in message
news:e72324eb-7003-4a4e...@googlegroups.com...
David Daniell via
John La Zouche 8th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth
b. abt 1486 d. 10 Aug 1550
& Dorothy Capell
d. 1527, in or before
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Sir John Zouche
b. abt 1515 d. 30 May 1585
& Catherine St Leger
m. by c. 1545
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Francis Zouche
d. 1600
& Philippa Ludlow
b. abt 1552
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Richard Zouche
b. 1590 d. 1 Mar 1661
& Sara Hart
d. 22 Mar 1685
m. 18 Dec 1621, ?
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Richard Zouche (son of Richard Zouche and Sara Hart)
d. abt 1668, Admon 1 July 1668 in PCC Wills
& Mary Zouche (eldest daughter of Thomas Zouche and Anne Jones)
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Mary Zouche
d. abt 1726, Admon 29 April 1726 of Horsley
& Henry Wylde (they are 3rd cousins)
d. abt 1694, Admon 27 April 1694 of Heanor
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Elizabeth Wylde
bp. 22 Dec 1681, St Laurance Heanor bur. 1 Jul 1749
& William Hunter
bp. 9 Sep 1677, Horsley Derbyshire bur. 28 Mar 1737, year recorded as 1637
m. 12 Oct 1699, Kirk Ireton
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Elizabeth Hunter
& Simon Fletcher
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John Fletcher
& Mary Woolley
bp. 2 Dec 1729, Pentrich
m. 17 Mar 1748/1749, Linby Nottinghamshire
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Henry Vicars Fletcher
bp. 6 Mar 1752 bur. 4 Nov 1813
& Sarah Froggatt
bur. 12 Apr 1774
m. 16 Nov 1772
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Samuel Fletcher
dp. Admon 13 December 1810
& Anne Thodey
m. 23 Jan 1799
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Samuel Fletcher
d. ? 1840
& Mary Wheeldon
m. 27 Aug 1826, St Alkmund Derby
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William Fletcher
bp. 17 Mar 1831 d. 1901
& Fanny Peel
bp. 21 Jul 1836, d. abt 1926
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William Fletcher
b. 1875 d. 1955
& Mary Margaret Maclean Martin
m. Dec 1904, qtr reg Oxford
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Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher
& Joan Nita Mary Bowring
b. 20 Jan 1911
m. 16 Nov 1933
div. abt 1943
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Susan Yolande Fletcher
b. 9 Jan 1939 d. 15 Jan 2011
& Michael Wells
m. 2 May 1960
div. 1980
John Higgins
I'd be interested to see the evidence that supports this line from John La Zouche, 8th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth, and Dorothy Capell - especially starting with the younger Richard Zouche, the son of Richard Zouche the MP and noted lawyer (who has a biography in ODNB).
Back in 2011, it was noted that Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher submitted a claim that he was a co-heir to the Barony of Grey of Codnor, which was then in abeyance. Brad Verity speculated that the claim was based on a descent from Sir John Zouche of Bulwick (husband of one of the Grey heirs), but of a different line of the Zouche family than the one presented here. Was the claim perhaps through the Wylde family and thence from Zouche of Bulwick? More specifically, what was the 3rd cousin relationship of Mary Zouche and Henry Wylde, as indicated in this new line?
David Daniell via
So I can’t give you any more evidence than is suggested by the notes on that descent I reported.
Yes, another line does come through John Zouche of Bulwick Northants. The Lenthall line is included too and I suspect Newport but after Fletcher’s family split off.
I do not suggest this is sufficient but if you look at the last entry on this page http://www.mocavo.com/Alumni-Oxonienses-the-Members-of-the-University-of-Oxford-1500-1714-Their-Parentage-Birthplace-and-Year-of-Birth-With-a-Record-of-Their-Degrees/882104/449 this <http://www.mocavo.com/Alumni-Oxonienses-the-Members-of-the-University-of-Oxford-1500-1714-Their-Parentage-Birthplace-and-Year-of-Birth-With-a-Record-of-Their-Degrees/882104/449%C2%A0this> you will see the judge described as father of William and possibly Richard. Go to the next page and both are attributed to the judge. I am unable to trace a 1688 admon for Richard.
I would prefer to hold back the relationship between Henry Wylde and Mary Zouche for the moment. If the line I’ve presented attracts some active interest I am prepared to provide more information.
A little bit shy about all this and, strictly, its off-topic?
Thanks for your interest in this descent,
David
> On 19/03/2016, at 6:36 pm, John Higgins via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:03:38 PM UTC-7, David Daniell via wrote:
>> Do you have this descent?
>>
>> John La Zouche 8th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth
>> b. abt 1486 d. 10 Aug 1550
>> & Dorothy Capell
>> d. 1527, in or before
>>> I presently show 28 descents from Edward I for Susannah York - based primarily on the discussion in this group back in 2011 and the assumptions made there. Does this agree with what you have?
> My present information on the ancestry of Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher (the father of the actress Susannah York) encompasses only what was presented in this group in January 2011. Thus it only goes back to his paternal great-grandparents Samuel Fletcher and Mary Wheeldon. The line presented here adds at least four more Edward I descents for Susannah York - and probably more depending on some of the possible cousin relationships suggested in the line.
>
> I'd be interested to see the evidence that supports this line from John La Zouche, 8th Lord Zouche of Haryngworth, and Dorothy Capell - especially starting with the younger Richard Zouche, the son of Richard Zouche the MP and noted lawyer (who has a biography in ODNB).
>
> Back in 2011, it was noted that Simon William Peel Vickers Fletcher submitted a claim that he was a co-heir to the Barony of Grey of Codnor, which was then in abeyance. Brad Verity speculated that the claim was based on a descent from Sir John Zouche of Bulwick (husband of one of the Grey heirs), but of a different line of the Zouche family than the one presented here. Was the claim perhaps through the Wylde family and thence from Zouche of Bulwick? More specifically, what was the 3rd cousin relationship of Mary Zouche and Henry Wylde, as indicated in this new line?
>
D. Spencer Hines
about a supposed descent from Edward I?
DSH
Per ignem per gladium
"David Daniell via" wrote in message
news:mailman.41.14583724...@rootsweb.com...
John Higgins
One of the works of the elder Richard Zouche was reprinted in 1911 in volume 1 of a series titled "The Classics of International Law", available here via Google Books [and perhaps elsewhere online]:
https://books.google.com/books?id=HRlHAQAAMAAJ
The introduction to the book contains a biography of the elder Richard Zouche, including an itemization of his children by Sarah Hart. On page iv, it says that the younger Richard was admitted to the bar in 1630 and died shortly thereafter on 4 Sept 1661 - only 6 months after his father's death. Shortly thereafter, the biography notes that the only child of the elder Richard Zouche and Sarah Hart who had issue was the youngest daughter Sarah who married Dr. Richard Lydell, warden of Merton College, and had issue into at least the 19th century. This last statement seems to be supported by Nichols' Leics, 4:780.
This source is not necessarily unimpeachable (there are some obvious inconsistencies), but it does raise at least the possibility that the Richard Zouche (d. ca. 1668) who married Mary Zouche was of a different branch of the family than that of the elder Richard Zouche. The fact that his wife is said to be named Mary Zouche suggests this was perhaps a cousin marriage, along with the Zouche-Wylde marriage that occurs in the next generation. There were clearly a lot of Zouches of various branches at that time.
You mention that the Fletcher father of Susannah York was apparently descended from at least two of the heiresses of the barony of Grey of Codnor. I'm sure there are a number of people following this group who would be interested in the details of these descents. I hope that you'll be able at some point to share them with us (or at least with me!!).
David Daniell via
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The Richard Zouche judge biography sounds very familiar though I would not have been aware of the disconnect because I obtained Fletcher’s trees quite recently, they are in the British Library in Yorkshire. All the links of Richard the judge are available in Boyds inhabitants of London 1621 (revised 1634?) except too young Mrs Lydall (1640-1712) who turned up for me from elsewhere. I intensely dislike Google’s fierce and so determined omniscience. Because I can no longer see their books without creating a Google account I happily take your word for it.
All Fletcher’s descents wil give you the same problems. I don’t think they were ever ordinary yeomen but they were not the kind to feature in published genealogies.
Fletcher was very useful to the Committee for privileges and was thanked a number of times. I was saddened to read the introduction to the report on the hearings where it is clear he had upset some. But I do not think we would have been dealt with the way we have been for a century or two if he’s completely wrong. Every shred of every document of proof was carefully destroyed by two spinsters using hammer and fire in Melbourne Australia in the 1950s. They excused this behaviour by saying the matter had brought nothing but bad things to the Wylde family and this way they would finish the whole matter. The problem has always been that titles are not given to or revived for ordinary people. The title(s) were a closely held secret always there for the moment when one of the family made it very very good!
Thanks and with my best regards,
David
D. Spencer Hines
Not a SHRED of Credible Proof is Presented.
DSH
Per ignem per gladium
"David Daniell via" wrote in message
David Daniell via
Not a SHRED of Credible Proof is Presented.
DSH
Per ignem per gladium
There seems to be something wrong with Rootsweb again.
That’s quite right about no shred of credible evidence, I was hoping there were readers more knowledgable about Zouches, particularly the family of Sandal Magna, Yorkshire.
Thank you for the opportunity to publish this descent.
"Sounds like Rampant Accusations of Conspiracy-Mongering” ?
David
David Daniell via
David Daniell