Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
In the original post on this issue, I put forth the proposition that the
passing of Hemyock and Hidon, Devon to the great-granddaughter of Margaret de
Hydon (and not to her heir male, and grandson, John de Dinham) in 1357 showed
that she was the mother of Josce de Dinham's younger son Oliver, but not of
his elder son John (d.v.m. 1332 or before). An ongoing review of the available
information concerning birth and marriage dates for this family finds that
there is no basis for supposing John was not her elder son, and that the passage
of these lands to her younger issue (or descendant thereof) was not unusual
for the period.
At the same time I wish to make this information known, I am also pleased
to advise that several sources (including KSB Keats-Rohan's Domesday
Descendants) have made it possible to extend the ancestry of Margaret de Hydon some 7
generations, to the 12th century Devonshire tenant Robert Foliot (d. before
1130). Also, there is now one unidentified generation only now barring similar
extension of her ancestry to the Domesday tenant Otelin de Hidon: once this
has been resolved, that information will be posted to the newsgroup as well.
~ Perhaps with some future good fortune, any linkage between
the Foliots of Devon and the family of Gilbert Foliot,
Bishop of London (maybe even the Foliots of Nottinghamshire)
will yet be discovered.....
This affects the ancestry of many individuals descended from the Lords
Dinham, and in particular that of the following 17th century emigrants to
America:
1. William Asfordby
2. Barbara Aubrey
3. George Blakiston
4. Nehemiah Blakiston
5. William Bladen
6. Charles Calvert
7. William Farrar
8. Mary Launce
9. Elizabeth Poole
10. Capt. William Poole
11. William Skepper
As always, any comment, criticism or added documentation re: the above
would be appreciated.
Good luck and good hunting,
John *
_______________________________
1 Robert Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1130[1]
of Hemyock and North Tawton, Devon & c.
had grant of royal land in Devon from King Henry I before 1103
Hemyock, Devon held in chief by 'serjeanty service' (DD p. 982,
cites Fees, 98)[1]
granted church of North Tawton, Devon (confirmed by
Osbert, bp. of Exeter, before 1104) to the monks of St.
Nicholas 'to make his son William a monk of St.
Nicholas, Exeter, with the consent of his sons Payn and
Geoffrey.' DD p. 982[1]
re: Madford in Hemyock, and Orescome, or Awliscombe Tremenet,
' Reichel notes that it later formed part of Hemyock, being
granted by Henry I to Robert Foliot (OJR, Supp, p39). '[2]
Children: Payn
Geoffrey
William
1.1 Payn Foliot
----------------------------------------
of Hemyock and North Tawton, Devon & c.
accounted for the lands of his father in 1129/30 (DD p. 983, cites
Pipe Roll 31 Hen. I)[1]
Children: Robert (-1196)
1.1.1 Robert Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: 1196[1]
of Hemyock and North Tawton, Devon & c.
'...his heirs were the issue of his four daughters, Susanna, wife
of Alfred fitz Ivo, Loretta, mother of Emma de Boterel,
Beatrix, mother of Richard of Hidon and secondly the wife
of Simon fitz Rogo, and a fourth daughter, mother of
Geoffrey de Barenton.' (DD p. 983, cites Curia Regis Rolls
iii, 197-98; x, 128)[1]
re: Hemyock, Devon:
' Hemyock Manor was granted to Robert Foliot by Richard de Redvers,
Earl of Devon.
1195: Hemyock was in the King's hands as the result of an escheat.
1198: Robert Foliot's lands were in the joint possession of
Geoffrey de Barenton, Thomas Foliot, Richard de Hidon and
Emma de Botreaux, his grandchildren.'[3]
Children: Susanna
Loretta
Beatrice
NN, a daughter
1.1.1.1 Susanna Foliot
----------------------------------------
coheiress of the lands of Foliot, in Devon[1]
Spouse: Alfred fitz Ivo
Children: Thomas
1.1.1.1.1 Thomas Foliot
----------------------------------------
coheir of his grandfather Robert Foliot[1]
evidently took his mother's surname[3]
1.1.1.2 Loretta Foliot
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue) of the lands of Foliot, in Devon
Spouse: NN de Botreaux
Children: Emma
1.1.1.2.1 Emma de Botreaux
----------------------------------------
coheiress of her grandfather, 1196[1]
'Emma de Boterel' (apparent error) - DD p. 983[1]
1.1.1.3a Beatrice Foliot*
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue) of the lands of Foliot, in Devon
her portion (held in dower) included the manor of Madford in Hemyock[4]
re: 'Newcott', or Nonycote, or Newcourt, or Hole, in Clayhidon parish
and Hemyock hundred (EPNS, pp610, 611).
It seems to be the DB manor Holne, held by Otelin from Baldwin
the Sheriff (DB 16,124). In 1166 Otelin's estates were held by
Richard de Hidon, and Newcourt was tenanted by Jordan FitzRogo
(OJR, Supp, p41). Lysons states that Newcourt belonged to the
family of Rogus, ...'[2]
Spouse: John de Hydon, of Bolham in Clayhidon, and Culm Pyne, in
Hemyock, Devon
Death: bef 1212[4]
Father: John de Hydon (->1166)
Children: Richard (-ca1248)
Other Spouses Simon fitz Rogus, 2nd husband
1.1.1.3a.1 Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1248
of Clyst Hidon and Hemyock, Devon
coheir of his grandfather Robert Foliot, 1196 (DD p. 983)[1]
'Richard de Hidon became the sole lord of the manor of Hemyock
between 1212 and 1228, and in 1238 held it of the honor of
Plympton (OJR, Supp, p. 39; Fees, p. 1368).'[2]
re: Hemyock, Devon:
'1198: Robert Foliot's lands were in the joint possession of
Geoffrey de Barenton, Thomas Foliot, Richard de Hidon
and Emma de Botreaux, his grandchildren.'[3]
' in 1244 Richard de Hidon conveyed the eastern moiety of Bolham
and the southern moiety of Bywood to Dunkeswell Abbey, which
held the manor in 1346 (OJR, Supp, p41). '[2]
Children: John (->1274)
1.1.1.3a.1.1 John de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 27 Feb 1274[5]
of Clyst Hidon and Hemyock, Devon
' In 1242 John de Hidon held half a fee here [in Clyst Hidon] of the
honor of Okehampton. '[2]
his son Ralph was presented to the living, 27 Feb 1274 ( St Andrew's
Church, Clayhidon)[5]
Children: Sir Richard
Ralph
1.1.1.3a.1.1.1 Sir Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
of Clyst Hidon, Clayhidon and Hemyock, Devon[6]
' Mackham and Madford (in Hemyock) appear as a single holding in the
IPM of Richard de Hidon, a descendant of Robert Foliot, who held a
share of Hemyock (IPM, ii, no 590; OJR, Supp, p39). '[2]
Children: Margaret (-1357)
1.1.1.3a.1.1.1.1 Margaret de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 May 1357[6]
Burial: Hemyock chapel
had the manor of Hemyock, co. Devon as her maritagium or inheritance[2]
she and her husband Josce de Dinham held
' Hydon and Clyst Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt. Fees, late
of Hugh de Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' Knights I:296[7]
she evidently passed certain lands to her great-granddaughter Margaret
de Dinham on her death (Hemyock and Hydon, Devon), either as
inheritance or intended for her maritagium.
* identified by John Ravilious in error as a second (or subsequent)
wife, and not the mother of Sir John de Dinham (J. Ravilious,
'Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham', Society of Medieval
Genealogy, 16 May 2002[8]). This was due to the passing of
Hemyock and Hidon to Margaret de Hydon's great-granddaughter
Margaret de Dinham, and not to her elder son and heir.
Research pending: 'In the late 13th Century, Margaret Hidon
inherited the Manors of Hemyock and Clayhidon
from her father Sir Richard Hidon, and the
Manors of Morleigh and Storridge from her mother
Isabel (née Fisacre).'[3]
Spouse: Sir Josce de Dinham, of Hartland, co. Devon, Buckland
Denham, co. Somerset & c.
Birth: bef 26 Feb 1274[6],[9]
Death: 30 Mar 1300[6]
Father: Sir Oliver de Dinham (<1234-1298)
Mother: NN
Marr: bef 24 Mar 1292[7]
Children: Sir John (1295-<1332)
Oliver (-1346)
1.1.1.3a.1.1.2 Ralph de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Occ: rector of St. Andrew's, Clayhidon
rector, St Andrew's Church, Clayhidon, Devon
presented to the living, 27 Feb 1274:
' The first reference to St Andrew's Church in the bishop's
register is on Feb. 27th. 1274, and shows Ralph de Hidon
being presented to the living. In the south aisle lies a
13th century effigy, said to depict Ralph, son of Sir John
de Hidon, lord of the manor.'[5]
1.1.1.3b Beatrice Foliot* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Simon fitz Rogus, 2nd husband
Other Spouses John de Hydon
1.1.1.4 NN Foliot
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue) of the lands of Foliot, in Devon
Spouse: NN de Barenton
Children: Geoffrey
1.1.1.4.1 Geoffrey de Barenton
----------------------------------------
coheir of his grandfather (DD p. 983)[1]
1.2 Geoffrey Foliot
----------------------------------------
consented to grant of church of North Tawton, Devon to the monks of St.
Nicholas by his father, before 1104 (DD p. 982)[1]
1.3 William Foliot
----------------------------------------
monk of St. Nicholas, Exeter before 1104
(grant of church of North Tawton to monks of St. Nicholas of Exeter,
by Robert Foliot, before 1130 - DD p. 982)[1]
1. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, full title: Domesday Descendants:
A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166:
Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
2. "Devon Manors: Tiverton Hundred," www.mortimer.co.uk/manors/hemyock.htm
3. "Devonshire Manors in the Domesday Book," www.hemyockcastle.co.uk/
4. Annie Natalelli-Waloszek, "Re: Drogo," Sept 27, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
5. St Andrew's Church, Clayhidon website,
http://www.culmkirks.co.uk/parishes/clayhidon.htm
provides date of presentation of Ralph de Hydon to the living,
27 Feb 1274.
6. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
and the United Kingdom.
7. "Knights of Edward I," Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
8. John P. Ravilious, "Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham," May 16,
2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
9. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
_____________________________
* John P. Ravilious
John Ravilious
Hello All,
As promised yesterday, following is the descent from Otelin de
Hidon (fl. 1086-1135) to Margaret de Hydon, wife (lstly) of Sir Josce
de Dinham (d. 1300).
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers,
John
_____________________________
1 NN de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Children: Otelin (->1135)
Geoffrey (->1135)
1.1 Otelin de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1135[1]
of Clyst Hidon, Devon
' Othelin de Hidun', tenant of Baldwin de Meules in Devon at
Domesday Book, 1086 [2]
granted church of Clyst Hidon to monks of St. Nicholas, Exeter 'for
his
soul and the soul of his brother Geoffrey (Gaufridi) and for the
souls
of his wife and sons', confirmed by Osbert, bp. of Exeter before 1104
(DP p. 320, cites BL Cott. Vit. D ix, fol. 168v)[2]
resigned his lands and became a canon of Taunton priory with his
brother Geoffrey, after 1135 [DD pp. 516-7][1]
Children: Richard
1.1.1 Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
of Clyst Hidon, Devon
succeeded to his father's estates on his resignation, after 1135:
' Sometime between 1136 and 1166, Bishop Robert of Exeter
notified Robert fitz Roy of Okehampton that Osbern [sic]
de Hiduna and his brother Geoffrey had granted land on
becoming canons of Taunton, and this with the assent of
Osbern's son and heir Richard (EEA x, 44).' [DD, pp. 516-7][1]
re: 'Newcott', or Nonycote, or Newcourt, or Hole, in Clayhidon parish
and Hemyock hundred (EPNS, pp610, 611).
' It seems to be the DB manor Holne, held by Otelin from Baldwin the
Sheriff (DB 16,124). In 1166 Otelin's estates were held by Richard
de
Hidon, and Newcourt was tenanted by Jordan FitzRogo (OJR, Supp,
p41)..'[3]
Children: John fitz Richard (->1175)
1.1.1.1 John fitz Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1175[3],[1]
of Clyst Hidon, Bolham in Clayhidon, and Culm Pyne, in Hemyock, Devon
'Johannes de Hidun', held 6 1/2 knights' fees of the honour of
Okehampton,
1166 (DD p. 516, citing Pipe Roll 11 Hen II, 81-dv, 95-dv)[1]
re: Bolham in Clayhidon, Devon it is claimed:
' In 1166 it was held by John de Hidon (OJR, Supp, p41). It then
passed
to his four grandchildren (see Hemyock), one of whom was Richard de
Hidon. '[3]
also held Culm Pyne, in Hemyock at 1166;
re: Clyst Hidon, it
' was held at least as early as 1166 by the Hidon family for it
appears
as part of the six and a half fees held in that year from Robert
the
king's son'[3]
'John fitz Richard de Hiddun', owed a forest fine in 1175/6 (DD p.
516,
citing Pipe Roll 22 Hen II, p. 147)[1]
Children: John (-<1212)
1.1.1.1.1 John de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1212[4]
of Bolham in Clayhidon, and Culm Pyne, in Hemyock, Devon
lst husband of Beatrice Foliot[3] (also DD p. 983)[1]
* K.S.B. Keats-Rohan identifies 'Johannes de Hidun' as both John
fitz Richard de Hidon, fl. 1166-1175, and as his son John, the
husband of Beatrice Foliot (DD, pp. 516-7) [1]. The chronology
from Otelin de Hidon to Richard de Hidon (fl. 1242, d. 1248)
supports the distinction as two separate individuals.
Spouse: Beatrice Foliot
Father: Robert Foliot (-1196) of Hemyock, Devon
Children: Richard (-ca1248)
1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1248
of Clyst Hidon and Hemyock, Devon
coheir of his grandfather Robert Foliot, 1196 (DD p. 983)[1]
'Richard de Hidon became the sole lord of the manor of Hemyock
between
1212 and 1228, and in 1238 held it of the honor of Plympton
(OJR, Supp, p. 39; Fees, p. 1368).'[3]
re: Hemyock, Devon:
'1198: Robert Foliot's lands were in the joint possession of Geoffrey
de
Barenton, Thomas Foliot, Richard de Hidon and Emma de Botreaux,
his grandchildren.'[5]
' in 1244 Richard de Hidon conveyed the eastern moiety of Bolham and
the
southern moiety of Bywood to Dunkeswell Abbey, which held the manor
in
1346 (OJR, Supp, p41). '[3]
Children: John (->1274)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 27 Feb 1274[6]
of Clyst Hidon and Hemyock, Devon
' In 1242 John de Hidon held half a fee here [in Clyst Hidon] of the
honor of Okehampton. '[3]
his son Ralph was presented to the living, 27 Feb 1274 ( St Andrew's
Church, Clayhidon)[6]
Children: Sir Richard
Ralph
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Richard de Hydon
----------------------------------------
of Clyst Hidon, Clayhidon and Hemyock, Devon[7]
' Mackham and Madford (in Hemyock) appear as a single holding in the
IPM of Richard de Hidon, a descendant of Robert Foliot, who held
a share of Hemyock (IPM, ii, no 590; OJR, Supp, p39). '[3]
Children: Margaret (-1357)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Margaret de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 May 1357[7]
Burial: Hemyock chapel
had the manor of Hemyock, co. Devon as her maritagium or
inheritance[3]
she and her husband Josce de Dinham held ' Hydon and Clyst
Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt. Fees, late of Hugh de
Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' Knights I:296[8]
she evidently passed certain lands to her great-granddaughter Margaret
de Dinham on her death (Hemyock and Hydon, Devon), either as
inheritance or intended for her maritagium.
* identified by John Ravilious in error as a second (or subsequent)
wife, and not the mother of Sir John de Dinham (J. Ravilious,
'Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham', Society of Medieval
Genealogy, 16 May 2002[9]). This was due to the passing of
Hemyock and Hidon to Margaret de Hydon's great-granddaughter
Margaret de Dinham, and not to her elder son and heir.
~ Additional research required: of her inheritance it is stated,
'In the late 13th Century, Margaret Hidon inherited the Manors
of Hemyock and Clayhidon from her father Sir Richard Hidon,
and the Manors of Morleigh and Storridge from her mother
Isabel (née Fisacre).'[5]
Spouse: Sir Josce de Dinham, of Hartland, co. Devon, Buckland
Denham, co. Somerset & c.
Birth: bef 26 Feb 1274[7],[10]
Death: 30 Mar 1300[7]
Father: Sir Oliver de Dinham (<1234-1298)
Mother: NN
Marr: bef 24 Mar 1292[8]
Children: Sir John (1295-<1332)
Oliver (-1346)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 Ralph de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Occ: rector of St. Andrew's, Clayhidon
rector, St Andrew's Church, Clayhidon, Devon
presented to the living, 27 Feb 1274:
' The first reference to St Andrew's Church in the bishop's register
is on Feb. 27th. 1274, and shows Ralph de Hidon being presented
to the living. In the south aisle lies a 13th century effigy, said
to depict Ralph, son of Sir John de Hidon, lord of the manor.'[6]
1.2 Geoffrey de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1135[1]
his brother Otelin de Hidon granted church of Clyst Hidon
to monks of St. Nicholas, Exeter
'for his soul and the soul of his brother Geoffrey (Gaufridi)
and for the souls of his wife and sons', confirmed by Osbert,
bp. of Exeter before 1104 (DP p. 320, cites BL Cott. Vit. D ix,
fol. 168v)[2]
resigned his lands and became a canon of Taunton priory with his
brother Otelin [called Osbern], after 1135 [DD pp. 516-7][1]
1. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge,
2002, full title: Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of
Persons,
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum.
2. "Domesday People," Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
1999,
Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents
1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to Gesta
Normannorum
Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts, ii, 270) and
identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of Meen, seigneur
de
Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe de Savigni, edition
phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909), titre no. 182).
3. "Devon Manors: Tiverton Hundred,"
www.mortimer.co.uk/manors/hemyock.htm
4. Annie Natalelli-Waloszek, "Re: Drogo," Sept 27, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
5. "Devonshire Manors in the Domesday Book," www.hemyockcastle.co.uk/
6. St Andrew's Church, Clayhidon website,
http://www.culmkirks.co.uk/parishes/clayhidon.htm
provides date of presentation of Ralph de Hydon to the living,
27 Feb 1274.
7. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
8. "Knights of Edward I," Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., Pubs. of
the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
9. John P. Ravilious, "Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham," May
16, 2002
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
10. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint
New
York, 1977].
_____________________________
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<1a3.15d77e...@aol.com>...
> Friday, 6 June, 2003
>
>
>
<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> * John P. Ravilious