Pickering of Killington/Lascelles of Escrick

230 views
Skip to first unread message

Brad Verity

unread,
Feb 9, 2007, 12:35:44 AM2/9/07
to
I'm trying to work out which Sir Thomas Gray of Heton, Northumberland
(the one who died. 1399, married to Joan Mowbray, or their son and
heir who died 1415 and was married to Alice Neville) was the maternal
grandfather of Margaret, daughter and heiress of Sir Robert Lascelles
of Escrick, Yorkshire. The c.1480 Visitation pedigree of Lascelles
says her mother was Catherine, daughter of Sir Thomas Gray and widow
of "Danby". It may be this Catherine who is the unnamed daughter of
Sir Thomas Gray and Alice Neville, married to "Arundel" in the Gray
pedigree of the same Visitation. "Arundel" may be a copyist error for
"Lascell".

Chronology becomes key here. We know Robert Lascelles received
licence to marry Catharine Danby of Thorpe Perrow on 9 September 1456,
but whether or not these were the parents of Margaret Lascelles
Pickering is not crystal clear. We also know Margaret died 17
November 1499. She was probably the subject of the following National
Archives document:

C 1/31/469 William Colyngbourn and Margaret his wife, late the wife
of James Pikering, knight. v. Robert Botiller, citizen and goldsmith
of London.: Action of account brought by the said Robert for money
lent to the said James concerning which the said Margaret hasbeen once
acquitted by wager of law in an action of debt.: London. 1465-1471,
or perhaps 1480-1483.

Chronology for the Pickerings of Killington, Westmorland and of
Ellerton, Yorkshire, is not so easy. I've managed to piece together
this, from primary records:

Thomas Pickering of Killington and Ellerton, died 25 August 1406,
leaving a son and heir,

John Pickering, of Killington and Ellerton, born about 1385, died 23
March 1420, leaving by his wife Ellen -------, a son and heir:

James Pickering, born 29 August 1413. I'm guessing it was this James
who was knighted, served as M.P. and J.P., sheriff of Yorkshire
1449-50, and was killed at Wakefield 30 December 1460.

A Proof of Age for James Pickering, kinsman and heir of Sir James
Pickering, was taken 16 Edward IV (1476/77), and he was likely born 15
March 1454. This James Pickering appears to be the one who died 23
May 1497 [the death date is certain, but which James Pickering it
applies to is not].

Finally, a Sir Christopher Pickering of Killington was dead by
1527/28, when his heir male was his brother James Pickering of Crosby.

If anyone has a better pedigree and/or chronology for these Pickerings
of Killington and Ellerton, I'd really appreciate learning more.

Cheers, ---------Brad

Brad Verity

unread,
Feb 9, 2007, 2:25:35 AM2/9/07
to
The Harleian Society's Visitation of Yorkshire, edited by Charles
Norcliffe (H.S.P. 16, 1881), has a pedigree of Pickering. Which is
curious, since there was no pedigree of the family in Flower's actual
Visitations of 1563/64 and 1567. The only pedigree of the family
taken at a Yorkshire Visitation was in 1530 by Tonge.

At any rate, Norcliffe's 1881 pedigree of the family - from whatever
his source was - has some useful information that help with some of
the chronology taken from primary 15th-century sources.

> C 1/31/469 William Colyngbourn and Margaret his wife, late the wife
> of James Pikering, knight. v. Robert Botiller, citizen and goldsmith
> of London.: Action of account brought by the said Robert for money
> lent to the said James concerning which the said Margaret hasbeen once
> acquitted by wager of law in an action of debt.: London. 1465-1471,
> or perhaps 1480-1483.

Per Norcliffe's Pickering pedigree, Sir James Pickering married 1st,
Mary Lowther (and by her had a son and heir James Pickering, who
married Margaret Lascelles of Escrick), and married 2nd, Margaret,
daughter and heir of Sir John Norwood (and by her had a son Edward
Pickering). It was Margaret Norwood Pickering who married 2nd,
William Collingbourne, and so was the co-plaintiff in the above
National Archives document.

> Finally, a Sir Christopher Pickering of Killington was dead by
> 1527/28, when his heir male was his brother James Pickering of Crosby.

Sir Christopher Pickering was aged 13 in 1498, and died 7 September
1516, per one of Norcliffe's footnotes to the Pickering pedigree. His
age in 1498 would likely make him the heir to the James Pickering who
died in 1497, but this might not be the case as Christopher's maternal
grandfather Christopher Moresby died 25 July 1499, and it's possible
it was that gentleman that Christopher Pickering was found heir to.

At least it rules out Margaret Lascelles being born to the couple
Robert Lascelles and Catherine Danby married in 1456, as Margaret
could not have been born after that date and be a grandmother in about
1485, when Sir Christopher Pickering was born.

Tonge's 1530 Visitation pedigree of the Pickerings makes it clear that
Margaret Lascelles was the grandmother, not the mother, of Sir
Christopher Pickering (c.1485-1516).

Ironically, it would be very possible chronologically for Sir Thomas
Gray of Heton (1384-1415) and Alice Neville to have a daughter
Catherine (born in the range 1400-1416), who was a mother to Margaret
Lascelles (d. 1499), who was a grandmother in 1485.

It's just the 1456 marriage date of Robert Lascelles to Catherine
Danby that doesn't work. But that may apply to other individuals.
Per the c.1480 Visitation pedigree of Lascelles, Robert Lascelles of
Escrick and Catherine Gray had an eldest son Robert who died without
issue. Perhaps he was the one who married Catherine Danby in 1456.

As the c.1480 Visitation pedigree of Lascelles of Escrick was compiled
in the lifetime of Margaret Lascelles Pickering, it would not be wrong
to assume it was fairly accurate as to the identity of her mother.

> If anyone has a better pedigree and/or chronology for these Pickerings
> of Killington and Ellerton, I'd really appreciate learning more.

Cheers, -------Brad


WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 10, 2007, 1:37:54 AM2/10/07
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 2/8/07 11:31:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royald...@hotmail.com writes:

<< At least it rules out Margaret Lascelles being born to the couple
Robert Lascelles and Catherine Danby married in 1456, as Margaret
could not have been born after that date and be a grandmother in about
1485, when Sir Christopher Pickering was born. >>

I believe it was the son who Margaret married.
That is she married James who died in 1497 and then she died a few years later

Brad Verity

unread,
Feb 10, 2007, 12:28:59 PM2/10/07
to
On Feb 9, 10:37 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

> I believe it was the son who Margaret married.
> That is she married James who died in 1497 and then she died a few years later

Dear Will,

I don't think that's correct. The problem is three James Pickerings
of Killington in a row, which is always confusing.

Sir James Pickering I of Killington (born 29 Aug. 1413), son and heir
of John and Ellen Pickering, would be the one who married 1) Mary
Lowther, and (apparently) married 2) Margaret Norwood. He also is
likely the one who was the M.P., sheriff of Yorkshire 1449-50, and the
one killed at the battle of Wakefield 30 Dec. 1460.

James Pickering II of Killington, son and heir of the above by 1st
wife, we don't have dates on, but he would be the one who married
Margaret Lascelles of Escrick (d. 17 Nov. 1499).

James Pickering III of Killington, was the son and heir of above, and
as he was the father of Sir Christopher Pickering (born about 1485),
would be the one born 15 Mar. 1454. He married Anne Moresby, daughter
and heiress of Christopher Moresby (d. 25 July 1499).

It must be James Pickering III who died 23 May 1497, not his father
James Pickering II. The reason is there is a Proof of Age for James
III, which means he was an heir to lands when he came of age. As we
know his mother Margaret Lascelles did not die until 1499, it couldn't
have been her lands he inherited as a minor, so it had to have been
the paternal Pickering inheritance. James Pickering II, then, had to
have died before 1476/77, when the Proof of Age for James III was
taken.

There don't seem to be IPMs for James Pickering I or James Pickering
II. Either they haven't survived, or were never taken. Perhaps the
family was under attainder in the 1460s. But it may be able to deduce
when James Pickering II died by examing the Fine and Close Rolls.
I'll take a look in them on my next library visit.

Cheers, -------Brad

WJho...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 12, 2007, 5:02:32 PM2/12/07
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Your theory of the three James' works of course, as would a theory of two
wives for one of the James' it seems and collapsing the two last into one person.

I'm having a hard time believing the short chronology. There is only 39
years (and a few months) between the birth of your James I and your James III, his
purported grandson.

Although it's *possible* that this family could have a short chronology, I'd
be a little more inclined to view it with skepticism in light of the vagueness
(so far) of the records and would be more leaning toward the idea that
something has been misread.

Will Johnson

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages