Philippa Bonville, wife of William Grenville

[Joe]

Philippa Bonville, wife of William Grenville, has historically in many secondary sources been said to be a daughter of William Bonville (1392-1491) by his wife Margaret Grey. This includes the most recent History of Parliament. http://tinyurl.com/h8ahbua

Douglas Richardson at least as far back as his 2004 Plantagenet Ancestry and up to his 2011 Royal Ancestry series makes her a sister of William being a daughter of John Bonville (1371-1396) and his wife Elizabeth Fitz Roger.

There was some discussion in the archives in the past that questioned the reasoning behind making her a daughter of William Bonville. However, I don’t find any direct evidence showing that Philippa was not or could not have been a daughter of William. I also don’t see the evidence presented that she was in fact a daughter of John Bonville. I would suspect there should be some chronologic proof since in one case she would have had to of been born by 1396 (John’s death), and in the other after 1414 (William’s marriage to Margaret).

So, what is the proof or reasoning for the change of Philippa Bonville’s parentage from the usual William Bonville to Richardson’s position that she was a daughter of John Bonville?

[jessic...@yahoo.co.uk]

I too would love to see an answer to this query and also whether parentage of Margaret Courtenay was ever proven by those who were working with Louise several years ago on these 2 ladies--there was much discussion but was a conclusion ever reached ?

[deca...@aol.com]

On Monday, December 19, 2016 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-5, jessic...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I too would love to see an answer to this query and also whether parentage of Margaret Courtenay was ever proven by those who were working with Louise several years ago on these 2 ladies--there was much discussion but was a conclusion ever reached ?

There will probably never be any conclusive evidence to the identity of the parents of Margaret Courtenay, because of the errors found in the Grenville Pedigree published in the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall. The marriage of a Courtenay woman to Theobald Grenville II is not supported by any evidence. The conclusion formed by Louise Staley and supported by others working with her on the project was that Margaret was not a Courtenay at all.

The evidence of Philippa Bonville being a Bonville is solid. Recent research completed in the 21st century into a related branch of the Bonville family has provided not conclusive but strong additional evidence that Philippa Bonville married firstly, William Grenville, Esq., and that she was the daughter of William Bonville, K.G., 1st Lord Bonville and his first wife, Margaret Grey. This was the exact position of the late 16th century and early 17th century British antiquarian, Sir William Pole (1561-1635), who developed the first known Grenville Pedigree, and it remains the same position of many 21st century British historical genealogists. In the late 20th century, some in the American genealogical community seemed to have added a twist to the issue of Philippa's parentage. However, the most notable genealogists who have ever worked on the issue of Philippa Bonville's parentage will submit their support for the position held by Sir William Pole regarding the issue, as well as the numerous secondary sources that have come about throughout the centuries.

Simply stated, a strong conclusion can be formed in the matter concerning the parentage of Philippa Bonville, but with regard to Margaret Courtenay, her parentage and identity will always be indeterminable!

[Joe]

What was the strong additional evidence that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William Bonville, K.G., 1st Lord Bonville?

The earliest mention that she was a daughter of William Bonville comes from William Pole in his Description of the County of Devon. [1] Pole was writing in the early 17th century, and he stated that the descent given was from a pedigree in the possession of Sir Bernard Grenville. However, he went out of his way to note that the pedigree did not agree with his own and expressed doubt as to its accuracy. The statement that Philippa was a daughter of William was then repeated in many early 18th, 19th and 20th century publications (but never with new evidence).

That she was a sister and not a daughter of William Bonville comes from the Visitation of Cornwall which states: “Willm Grenvile brother and hey. to Sr John temp H. IV. married Phillip Sist. to the Lo Bondvile.” [2]

I did not find any other direct evidence that said Philippa was a daughter or a sister of William Bonville. Both Pole’s statement and the Visitation record give an equally flawed Grenville pedigree, And, since Pole was simply following a family pedigree which he was unable to verify and whose accuracy he doubted, I don’t see how we can say (in this case) that he is any more or less reliable than the Visitation record.

Roger Granville published many of the Grenvile records in 1895 he wrote William Grenvile married "Phillipa daughter (sister?) of William, Lord Bonville" He certainly was showing some doubt over the correct parentage of Phillipa. [3]

When Charles Fitch-Northen wrote on the Grenvile’s in his 1979 DCNQ article, his conclusion was “that the mother of William’s son Sir Thomas Grenville I. was either Thomazine (a Cole?), or the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz Roger, and sister of Lord Bonville” [4]

Looking at chronology if she was the daughter of William Bonville, William Bonville and Margaret Grey were contracted to marry 12 December 1414 which means the absolute earliest Philippa could have been born was late 1415. Thomas Grenvile, son of William and Philippa Grenvile, had a license to marry Anne Courteney on 7 September 1447. It seems to me he was of certainly of age 24 August 1449 when with his wife Anne he was granting land in Bideford and he referred to the tenant as doing suit in his court. [3] So, if he was born by 1428, his mother Philippa could have been at most 13 years old when he was born while his father would have been in his 50s (probably 60’s) at least. It doesn’t seem very likely.

I agree with Charles Fitch-Northen that Philippa could only have been the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz Roger, and sister of Lord Bonville (just as directly stated in the Visitations). But this is all just by chronology and I am certainly willing to change my mind if there is “strong additional evidence.”

1. Pole, William. Collections Towards a Description of the County of Devon. (London, 1791):387. http://tinyurl.com/zceacro

2. Vivian, John Lambrick. ''Visitation of the County of Cornwall in the Year 1620''. (London: Harleian Society Visitation Series vol. 9, 1874):84, Grenvile pedigree. http://tinyurl.com/h83eudz


3. Granville, Roger. ''The History of the Granville Family'' (Exeter, 1895):57-58. http://tinyurl.com/zrykxzj

4. Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries vol. XXXIV no. 4 (Autumn 1979):154-161. ''A Revision of the Grenville Pedigree'', by Charles Fitch-Northen.

[deca...@aol.com]

My comments are interspersed.

> What was the strong additional evidence that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William Bonville, K.G., 1st Lord Bonville?

I guess we will see the additional evidence when 21st century researchers release their findings!

> The earliest mention that she was a daughter of William Bonville comes from William Pole in his Description of the County of Devon. [1] Pole was writing in the early 17th century, and he stated that the descent given was from a pedigree in the possession of Sir Bernard Grenville. However, he went out of his way to note that the pedigree did not agree with his own and expressed doubt as to its accuracy. The statement that Philippa was a daughter of William was then repeated in many early 18th, 19th and 20th century publications (but never with new evidence).

The pedigree in the possession of Sir Bernard Grenville was certainly in error when it mentioned, "Margaret Courtenay, dau. of Hugh Courtenay" and "Phillip, Sist. to Lo Bondvile." These errors have been discussed in depth in this same forum back in 2001-2002. Don't take my word for it, you can look them up for yourself. There is no point to rehash their well researched statements and conclusions regarding the matter, simply to reply to an old argument you wanted to bring up again for reasons you have not yet revealed. The conclusions of the research team were that Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II was not the daughter of Hugh Courtenay and that Philippa Bonville was not the sister of Lord Bonville. I see it as a moot point to continue to discuss the parentage issue of Philippa Bonville any further unless you present newly discovered evidence to support your assertion that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger.

> That she was a sister and not a daughter of William Bonville comes from the Visitation of Cornwall which states: “Willm Grenvile brother and hey. to Sr John temp H. IV. married Phillip Sist. to the Lo Bondvile.” [2]
>
> I did not find any other direct evidence that said Philippa was a daughter or a sister of William Bonville. Both Pole’s statement and the Visitation record give an equally flawed Grenville pedigree, And, since Pole was simply following a family pedigree which he was unable to verify and whose accuracy he doubted, I don’t see how we can say (in this case) that he is any more or less reliable than the Visitation record.

I believe that Charles Fitch-Northen who you like to quote stated that Pole created his Grenville Pedigree first and independently of Sir Bernard Grenville. Neither Pole himself nor Fitz-Northen state that Pole worked off of the same pedigree when they constructed their own Grenville pedigrees. Either way, whatever the pedigree was that was constructed by Sir Bernard Grenville (who was the informant to the Heralds' for the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall pedigree), it was assuredly flawed in several generations. I would trust Pole's pedigree (which was constructed first) over the pedigree provided by Sir Bernard Grenville which we know is flawed. Pole does not express any doubt in his Grenville pedigree that you claim based on his "Collections Towards a Description of the County of Devon" (London, 1791) or any other commentary.

> Roger Granville published many of the Grenvile records in 1895 he wrote William Grenvile married "Phillipa daughter (sister?) of William, Lord Bonville" He certainly was showing some doubt over the correct parentage of Phillipa. [3]

Roger Granville's first assumption based off of his own conclusions after reviewing the evidence was that Philippa was a daughter of William, Lord Bonville. He even included Philippa as the daughter of William, Lord Bonville in the pedigree chart found in his Pedigree of the Granville family at the end of "The History of Granville Family" (1895) book. Since he obviously had a little doubt because he did not have any absolute conclusive evidence, he immediately followed daughter with a query, (sister ?).

> When Charles Fitch-Northen wrote on the Grenvile’s in his 1979 DCNQ article, his conclusion was “that the mother of William’s son Sir Thomas Grenville I. was either Thomazine (a Cole?), or the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz Roger, and sister of Lord Bonville” [4]
>
> Looking at chronology if she was the daughter of William Bonville, William Bonville and Margaret Grey were contracted to marry 12 December 1414 which means the absolute earliest Philippa could have been born was late 1415. Thomas Grenvile, son of William and Philippa Grenvile, had a license to marry Anne Courteney on 7 September 1447. It seems to me he was of certainly of age 24 August 1449 when with his wife Anne he was granting land in Bideford and he referred to the tenant as doing suit in his court. [3] So, if he was born by 1428, his mother Philippa could have been at most 13 years old when he was born while his father would have been in his 50s (probably 60’s) at least. It doesn’t seem very likely.

Looking at the chronology, it is even more highly unlikely that Philippa was the daughter of John Bonville and born at the latest in the spring of 1397. If Philippa were the daughter of John Bonville, she would have been 30+ years old at the time of her first marriage to William Grenville after May 1427 and well into her late 30s at the birth of her last known child, Ellen Grenville. Given what is known of medieval marriages for women of Philippa's social standing or not in the 15th century, it would be highly unlikely and almost impossible that she married and gave birth to numerous children at such a late age. If Philippa was born in 1397, it would have been highly unlikely she would have married for a second time in her early 50s, even if she had lived that long. It is more likely that she remarried in her mid-late 30s after the death of William Grenville in 1449. The case for Philippa being born in early 1397 and before is far-fetched, considering the entire argument hinges on her having a marriage prior to William Grenville, which there is no evidence at all to support. It is well known that she married twice, first to William Grenville and second to John Almescombe. Philippa being the sister of William, Lord Bonville is based solely on the unanimously agreed upon flawed Grenville pedigree found in the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall given by Sir Bernard Grenville. This is the same pedigree that claims Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II, was the daughter of Hugh Courtenay, which has proven to be impossible. It is more than reasonable to say that Philippa being "sister to Lord Bonville" was just as flawed as the assertion made by Sir Bernard Grenville to the Heralds that Margaret was the daughter of Hugh Courtenay.

> I agree with Charles Fitch-Northen that Philippa could only have been the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz Roger, and sister of Lord Bonville (just as directly stated in the Visitations). But this is all just by chronology and I am certainly willing to change my mind if there is “strong additional evidence.”

Charles Fitch-Northen's arguments are based off of inaccurate assumptions of dates, which flaws his entire argument into the identity of Philippa Bonville. He argues that Thomas Grenville I was born in 1426 and that his mother was Thomazine Cole. There are neither any direct nor indirect evidence nor any secondary sources which state that Thomazine Cole had children, much less that she was the mother of Thomas Grenville I. This was solely the wild supposition exposited by Charles Fitch-Northen in his "A Revision of the Grenville Pedigree" found in Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries vol. XXXIV no. 4 (Autumn 1979). It should also be noted that after 1979, every genealogical researcher who has commented on the Grenville pedigree has not used Fitch-Northen because of his unsupported statements and assumptions (these genealogical heavyweights include Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., and Douglas Richardson). We know this to be false because William Grenville and Philippa Bonville were the parents of Thomas Grenville I and were married after May 1427, in which case, Thomas Grenville I would have been born no earlier than 1428. Thomas Grenville I could have also been born in 1429, 1430, or 1431. Any of those dates of birth would still support Thomas Grenville I being at an age to marry Anne Courtenay on 7 September 1447 and still at an age of majority when he was granted land in Bideford on 24 August 1449. There are also plenty of examples in medieval times of men marrying for a second time women who were at least a generation or more younger and women giving birth to children in their early to mid teenage years.

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, December 26, 2016 at 5:12:13 PM UTC-8, deca...@aol.com wrote:

> There will probably never be any conclusive evidence to the identity of the parents of Margaret Courtenay, because of the errors found in the Grenville Pedigree published in the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall. The marriage of a Courtenay woman to Theobald Grenville II is not supported by any evidence. The conclusion formed by Louise Staley and supported by others working with her on the project was that Margaret was not a Courtenay at all.

I was one of those who worked with Louise and another wonderful genealogist, Sheila Yeo, on the early Grenville spouses, specifically Margaret Courtenay. I don't remember the conclusion being that she wasn't a Courtenay at all (why would later generations of Grenvilles have made her up?) - instead, it was a matter of it being difficult to place her within the Courtenay family. She most definitely was not a (legitimate) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun (granddaughter of Edward I), as some sources, including the HOP bio of her son Sir John Grenville (d. 1412), have it. Nor was it chronologically possible for her to have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425), as other sources have it. Nor could she have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay (1327-1349), an original Knight of the Garter, the eldest son of the 2nd Earl of Devon, as she would have become an heiress after the death without issue of his only son Hugh, Lord Courtenay (c.1348-1374).

Given that Sir John Grenville did become a leading retainer of Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon (1357-1419), my own guess is that Sir John was the earl's nephew, and that Sir John's mother Margaret Grenville was elder sister to the 3rd Earl of Devon and Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe, and so a daughter of Sir Edward Courtenay of Sheviock (c.1332-c.1370), the 3rd son of the 2nd Earl of Devon. His wife Emmeline Dauney, a Cornish heiress, was born in 1327, and so age thirty when her elder son the future 3rd earl of Devon was born. There is plenty of time earlier in the decade for a daughter (named for Sir Edward's illustrious mother the countess of Devon?) to have been born, even as early as 1348-49.

IIRC, both Sir Edward Courtenay and Sir Theobald Grenville served in the retinue of Edward the Black Prince, who of course was their feudal overlord as Duke of Cornwall. The two Cornish knights arranging a marriage for their children would not be unexpected. This will only ever be a hypothesis, as no evidence now survives to definitively determine the parentage of Margaret (Courtenay) Grenville.

> Simply stated, a strong conclusion can be formed in the matter concerning the parentage of Philippa Bonville, but with regard to Margaret Courtenay, her parentage and identity will always be indeterminable!

It's been years since I looked at the Grenvilles, but I do remember coming to the same conclusion as Charles Fitch Northern in his DCNQ article - that there was definitive evidence to place Philippa Grenville within the Bonville family, but chronological difficulty in making her the daughter of Lord Bonville and his first wife Margaret Grey of Ruthin Castle. Lord Bonville's younger brother Thomas Bonville of Newton Ferrers (c.1395-1467) seems to have married before his elder brother did. I think the fact that William and Philippa Grenville had a son named 'Thomas' and a daughter named 'Leva', names not found in the Grenville family, strongly suggests that Philippa Grenville was the daughter of Thomas Bonville of Newton Ferrers & his first wife Joan Poynings, and the stepdaughter of his second wife Leva Gorges. But again, at this point, it remains a hypothesis, impossible to prove definitively one way or the other.

Cheers, -----Brad

[wjhonson]

I would say "impossible" is too strong. John Bonville and Katherine Wingfield had two co-heiresses who *both* d.s.p. but after their parents.

That seems to imply that there could be an inheritance *if* this supposed Philippa belongs in this place.

So, what happened to the lands?

[Brad Verity]

John Bonville's 1494 IPMs can be found in CIPM Henry VII Vol. 2, pp. 415-16, 455, 462, 487

There were actually three co-heirs:
1) Florence (b. 1472), wife of Sir Humphrey Fulford (and afterwards of John Bourchier, 1st earl of Bath)
2) Elizabeth (b. 1474), wife of Sir Thomas West (later 9th Lord De La Warr)
3) John Copleston (b. 1477), grandson of Anne (Bonville) Copleston, John's eldest daughter by his first wife (and stepsister) Joan Wibbury (b. 1424)

The manors held were:
Chawton, Hampshire
Halffnaked, Sussex
Hornecote, Cornwall and
Shillyngham, Cornwall (marriage settlement on his 2nd wife Katherine Wingfield, and inheritable only by their two daus)
Tateworthy, Somersetshire
Walberton, Sussex
West Hamptenet, Sussex
Wodecote, Sussex
Wyle, Dorset (this was his 2nd wife Katherine Winfield's marriage portion, so inheritable only by his two daughters by her)

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -----Brad

[deca...@aol.com]

My comments are interspersed

> I was one of those who worked with Louise and another wonderful genealogist, Sheila Yeo, on the early Grenville spouses, specifically Margaret Courtenay. I don't remember the conclusion being that she wasn't a Courtenay at all (why would later generations of Grenvilles have made her up?) - instead, it was a matter of it being difficult to place her within the Courtenay family. She most definitely was not a (legitimate) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun (granddaughter of Edward I), as some sources, including the HOP bio of her son Sir John Grenville (d. 1412), have it. Nor was it chronologically possible for her to have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425), as other sources have it. Nor could she have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay (1327-1349), an original Knight of the Garter, the eldest son of the 2nd Earl of Devon, as she would have become an heiress after the death without issue of his only son Hugh, Lord Courtenay (c.1348-1374).

What was mentioned concerning the statement about Margaret Courtenay not being a Courtenay at all was referring to one of the conclusions formed by Louise Staley during that time frame. Louise stated in her final report, “If Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville, was a Courtenay, she is most likely to be found as a granddaughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon (d. 1340) and his wife Agnes St John by one of their children other than Hugh Courtenay and Margaret Bohun. A less appealing alternative is that ‘Margaret was not a Courtenay at all,’ but the widow of one of the Courtenay men.” Those were her exact words and not an invention I just pulled out of thin air.

In Sheila Yeo’s article "A Brief History of the Early Yeo Family," she states “John and Alice's son William Yeo , married Ellen Grenville. Ellen's mother was Phillipa Bonville , daughter of Lord William Bonville.”

Sheila Yeo also developed several pedigree charts of the Yeo’s, Bonville’s and Grenville’s. In each pedigree chart she identifies Philippa Bonville as the daughter of William, 1st Lord Bonville. The article and pedigree charts were created several years after Louise Staley issued her final Grenville-Courtenay project report. It would seem that Sheila Yeo (who I do believe is a wonderful genealogist), believes that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville and his first wife, Margaret Grey!

> Given that Sir John Grenville did become a leading retainer of Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon (1357-1419), my own guess is that Sir John was the earl's nephew, and that Sir John's mother Margaret Grenville was elder sister to the 3rd Earl of Devon and Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe, and so a daughter of Sir Edward Courtenay of Sheviock (c.1332-c.1370), the 3rd son of the 2nd Earl of Devon. His wife Emmeline Dauney, a Cornish heiress, was born in 1327, and so age thirty when her elder son the future 3rd earl of Devon was born. There is plenty of time earlier in the decade for a daughter (named for Sir Edward's illustrious mother the countess of Devon?) to have been born, even as early as 1348-49.
>
> IIRC, both Sir Edward Courtenay and Sir Theobald Grenville served in the retinue of Edward the Black Prince, who of course was their feudal overlord as Duke of Cornwall. The two Cornish knights arranging a marriage for their children would not be unexpected. This will only ever be a hypothesis, as no evidence now survives to definitively determine the parentage of Margaret (Courtenay) Grenville.
>

Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the parentage of Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II. That is the first time I’ve seen this theory introduced regarding the parentage of Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II. I believe it is accurate in saying that “no evidence now survives to definitely determine the parentage of Margaret (Courtenay) Grenville." There is also the possibility that after almost 300 years from when this Margaret allegedly married Theobald Grenville, the informant to the Heralds for the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall (Grenville pedigree) made an error in stating Courtenay instead of Calmady, where a stain glass window installed in the church of Petrocstow, Devon, has the Grenville arms impaling the Calmady arms! It is quite reasonable to assume that later Grenville generations (almost 300 years later) could have confused the roughly similar names "Calmady" and "Courtenay." It should be noted that after the last Courtenay earl was beheaded by King Henry VIII in 1538, the Courtenay manor of Langdon Court was seized by the crown, from whom it was purchased by Vincent Calmady in 1555.

> It's been years since I looked at the Grenvilles, but I do remember coming to the same conclusion as Charles Fitch Northern in his DCNQ article - that there was definitive evidence to place Philippa Grenville within the Bonville family, but chronological difficulty in making her the daughter of Lord Bonville and his first wife Margaret Grey of Ruthin Castle. Lord Bonville's younger brother Thomas Bonville of Newton Ferrers (c.1395-1467) seems to have married before his elder brother did. I think the fact that William and Philippa Grenville had a son named 'Thomas' and a daughter named 'Leva', names not found in the Grenville family, strongly suggests that Philippa Grenville was the daughter of Thomas Bonville of Newton Ferrers & his first wife Joan Poynings, and the stepdaughter of his second wife Leva Gorges. But again, at this point, it remains a hypothesis, impossible to prove definitively one way or the other.
>

A multitude of researchers can say that there is chronological difficulty in making Philippa Bonville a daughter of Sir John Bonville (c. 1371 – 21 October 1396), William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville, or even Thomas Bonville (c. 1395-1467)!

You must have forgotten this post you made back on 23 April 2001. Part of the post is below:

{"brad verity" wrote in message news:
Magna Charta Sureties is incorrect on Philippa Bonville's birth date. According to Roskell, her father William, 1st Lord Bonville, was born and baptised at Shute 12 or 31 Aug 1392. Roskell's source for this is 'C138/5/58,' and he corrects Complete Peerage, so it seems pretty authoritative. Accordingly, there is no way his daughter Philippa can have been born before 1396. Roskell places the date of Lord Bonville's marriage to his 1st wife Margaret Grey (Philippa's mother) as about 1414, so Philippa would've been born sometime after then.”}

It seems you were adamant about supporting the position that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William, 1st Lord Bonville. Louise Staley posted her theory that Thomas Bonville was the father of Philippa Bonville back in June 2001. Most interestingly she stated, “Now, Philippa and William Grenville had three children, Thomas, Ellena (called Leva in legal documents) and Margery." Louise did not provide the source for where she found Ellen Grenville being called Leva in legal documents. What Louise also failed to do was her inability to provide any evidentiary support for her theory. It was just idle speculation. What evidence changed your position from then till now?


> Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 9:27:21 PM UTC-8, deca...@aol.com wrote:
> What was mentioned concerning the statement about Margaret Courtenay not being a Courtenay at all was referring to one of the conclusions formed by Louise Staley during that time frame. Louise stated in her final report, “If Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville, was a Courtenay, she is most likely to be found as a granddaughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, 1st Earl of Devon (d. 1340) and his wife Agnes St John by one of their children other than Hugh Courtenay and Margaret Bohun. A less appealing alternative is that ‘Margaret was not a Courtenay at all,’ but the widow of one of the Courtenay men.” Those were her exact words and not an invention I just pulled out of thin air.

We spent a few months looking at the Courtenay pedigree in detail, and all I can remember of it - my notes and emails were lost years ago when the hard drive of my computer crashed - was that there was no readily apparent candidate within it who could have been Margaret's father.

> In Sheila Yeo’s article "A Brief History of the Early Yeo Family," she states “John and Alice's son William Yeo , married Ellen Grenville. Ellen's mother was Phillipa Bonville , daughter of Lord William Bonville.”
> Sheila Yeo also developed several pedigree charts of the Yeo’s, Bonville’s and Grenville’s. In each pedigree chart she identifies Philippa Bonville as the daughter of William, 1st Lord Bonville. The article and pedigree charts were created several years after Louise Staley issued her final Grenville-Courtenay project report. It would seem that Sheila Yeo (who I do believe is a wonderful genealogist), believes that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville and his first wife, Margaret Grey!

I don't recall Sheila sharing any evidence with me and Louise that led us to such certainty that Philippa Grenville was the daughter of the first Lord Bonville. If she found some subsequently, that's wonderful. However I notice she has a chart within that article that has Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II, as the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay, KG and Elizabeth de Vere. That was a possibility that the three of us had explored, but had ruled out because the IPMs of their only son Hugh, Lord Courtenay made no mention of a sister and heir. Nor is there anything in the will of the 2nd earl of Devon or that of his wife Countess Margaret, to suggest that their beloved and celebrated eldest son had any living descendants.

> Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the parentage of Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II. That is the first time I’ve seen this theory introduced regarding the parentage of Margaret, wife of Theobald Grenville II. I believe it is accurate in saying that “no evidence now survives to definitely determine the parentage of Margaret (Courtenay) Grenville." There is also the possibility that after almost 300 years from when this Margaret allegedly married Theobald Grenville, the informant to the Heralds for the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall (Grenville pedigree) made an error in stating Courtenay instead of Calmady, where a stain glass window installed in the church of Petrocstow, Devon, has the Grenville arms impaling the Calmady arms! It is quite reasonable to assume that later Grenville generations (almost 300 years later) could have confused the roughly similar names "Calmady" and "Courtenay." It should be noted that after the last Courtenay earl was beheaded by King Henry VIII in 1538, the Courtenay manor of Langdon Court was seized by the crown, from whom it was purchased by Vincent Calmady in 1555.

I have no recollection at all of the Courtenay-as-an-error-for-Calmady theory, but it certainly sounds plausible, given the window in the church. Was it in the

> A multitude of researchers can say that there is chronological difficulty in making Philippa Bonville a daughter of Sir John Bonville (c. 1371 – 21 October 1396), William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville, or even Thomas Bonville (c. 1395-1467)!

For the 1st Lord Bonville and his brother, the chronological difficulty is clear. If Philippa was the mother of William Grenville's son and heir Thomas, who was apparently of age in 1449, so born by 1428, Philippa had to have been a teenaged wife and mother: she could not have been born earlier than 1415, if the daughter of the 1st Lord Bonville (b. 1392), and she could not have been born much earlier than that if the daughter of his younger brother Thomas, whose son John Bonville was born in 1413.

> You must have forgotten this post you made back on 23 April 2001. Part of the post is below:
> {"brad verity" wrote in message news:
> Magna Charta Sureties is incorrect on Philippa Bonville's birth date. According to Roskell, her father William, 1st Lord Bonville, was born and baptised at Shute 12 or 31 Aug 1392. Roskell's source for this is 'C138/5/58,' and he corrects Complete Peerage, so it seems pretty authoritative. Accordingly, there is no way his daughter Philippa can have been born before 1396. Roskell places the date of Lord Bonville's marriage to his 1st wife Margaret Grey (Philippa's mother) as about 1414, so Philippa would've been born sometime after then.”}

I've forgotten most of the details of this issue, I readily admit. But re-reading my 2001 post, I still agree with it: the 1st Lord Bonville, born in 1392, could not have had a daughter born before 1396. I can add that the HOP bio of the 1st Lord Bonville provides the specific date of 12 December 1414 for the marriage contract:
“Bonville was still unmarried when he came of age. His younger brother, Thomas, had already taken to wife a granddaughter of Thomas, Lord Poynings (otherwise known as St. John of Basing), and it was decided that he himself should be linked with another noble house, that of Grey of Ruthin. On 12 Dec. 1414 he contracted to marry Lord Grey’s daughter Margaret, agreeing that Bonville lands worth £100 would be settled in jointure on Margaret and himself and their heirs, while Grey promised to pay 200 marks to him on the day of the wedding and a further 600 marks in instalments, the last falling due in March 1418 (Suss. Arch. Colls. Xv. 10, 57-66; CP, x. 668; CCR, 1413-19, p. 199)."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/bonville-sir-william-ii-1392-1461

The Close Roll entry cited by HOP confirms that Bonville and Margaret Grey of Ruthin were not yet married when the contract was drawn up in December 1414, and that Bonville had until Midsummer to make the marriage settlement. But even if the marriage followed immediately at Yuletide, the earliest a child could be born to the couple is late 1415, and Thomas Grenville was apparently born by 1428.

> It seems you were adamant about supporting the position that Philippa Bonville was the daughter of William, 1st Lord Bonville.

It would be wonderful if she was - Philippa Grenville would then be a mtDNA descendant of Eleanor of Castile. But chronology, it would seem, is against it.

> Louise Staley posted her theory that Thomas Bonville was the father of Philippa Bonville back in June 2001. Most interestingly she stated, “Now, Philippa and William Grenville had three children, Thomas, Ellena (called Leva in legal documents) and Margery." Louise did not provide the source for where she found Ellen Grenville being called Leva in legal documents. What Louise also failed to do was her inability to provide any evidentiary support for her theory. It was just idle speculation. What evidence changed your position from then till now?

I remember Louise and Sheila both shared documents which they had ordered from archives. I'm sorry, I can't recall any of the details about what the documents contained. I'm glad that some of the research made it into Sheila's online article, but all these years later I can't recall what within that article Sheila derived from primary sources, what was from secondary sources, and what was from the online discussions the three of us had as we shared and processed each other's research.

It would have been a discussion with Sheila and Louise that changed my mind from Philippa as daughter of the 1st Lord Bonville in April 2001 to Philippa as daughter of his brother Thomas Bonville in June 2001 when Louise posted, and the first names that William and Philippa Grenville gave their children is the key evidence in favour of this suggestion. But chronology is still against it, as it leaves Philippa a wife and mother in 1428 at an age no older than 17-16.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Joe]

> But chronology is still against it, as it leaves Philippa a wife and mother in 1428 at an age no older than 17-16.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad

If the marriage contract between William, 1st Lord Bonville and Margaret Grey was in December 1414, then the earliest they could have had a daughter was in late 1415. Wouldn't you have to say that it leaves Philippa as a wife and mother in 1428 at an age no older than 13 - exceedingly unlikely.

It should also be remembered that this child bride was supposedly marrying William Grenville, heir to his brother John Grenville. Their father Theobald Grenville was dead by 1380 by which time John Grenville was an adult - born in the 1350's. William Grenville was likely born in the 1360's, maybe 1370's if you say he was much younger than his brother John. So, we would have a 50-60 man marrying the 12 year old daughter of Lord Bonville. (The problems with these dates can be relieved if you suppose there is a missing William in the Grenville pedigree. i.e. William Grenville m. Thomasine Cole and it was their son William who married Philippa)

[deca...@aol.com]

> If the marriage contract between William, 1st Lord Bonville and Margaret Grey was in December 1414, then the earliest they could have had a daughter was in late 1415. Wouldn't you have to say that it leaves Philippa as a wife and mother in 1428 at an age no older than 13 - exceedingly unlikely.
>
> It should also be remembered that this child bride was supposedly marrying William Grenville, heir to his brother John Grenville. Their father Theobald Grenville was dead by 1380 by which time John Grenville was an adult - born in the 1350's. William Grenville was likely born in the 1360's, maybe 1370's if you say he was much younger than his brother John. So, we would have a 50-60 man marrying the 12 year old daughter of Lord Bonville. (The problems with these dates can be relieved if you suppose there is a missing William in the Grenville pedigree. i.e. William Grenville m. Thomasine Cole and it was their son William who married Philippa)

I don’t believe it to be “exceedingly unlikely” that Philippa Bonville was born between 1414 and 1416 (which is highly possible) and within the first year of marriage of William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville and Margaret Grey. It is also very likely that Philippa Bonville married when she was between 12 and 16 years of age (which is historically possible), especially given the time period and her social standing, no matter if she were the daughter of John Bonville, Thomas Bonville, or William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville. Saying that she gave birth to her first known child between the ages of 13 and 16 is both biologically possible and not uncommon for the 15th century.

For example, I will mention Margaret Beaufort, the Countess of Richmond and Derby (31 May 1443 – 29 June 1509), whose age at marriage, pregnancy, and delivery could have certainly mirrored Philippa’s exact circumstances during the same time period in the 15th century. Margaret Beaufort was 12 years old when she married her 2nd husband (Edmund Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond) on 1 November 1455. She got pregnant with her only child (Henry Tudor, a.k.a. Henry VII) by Edmund Tudor when she was 12 years and 10 months old. Her only child, Henry Tudor, was born 28 January 1457 when Margaret Beaufort was 13 years and 7 months old. So, it is not as “exceedingly unlikely” as it would seem to be! Philippa Bonville and William Grenville married after 12 May 1427 and could have certainly married in 1428, 1429, 1430, or even 1431 when Philippa was 12 to 16 years old. They would have then consummated their marriage and given birth to their first born son, Thomas Grenville I, anywhere from 1428 to 1431 when Philippa was approximately 13 to 16 years of age. It should also be noted that Thomas Grenville I’s date of birth has conventionally been estimated to be 1430. [See Weis The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215 fifth ed. (1999): p. 30 [Line 22-11] (author estimates Thomas Grenville I’s date of birth as circa 1430)].

[CE Wood]

Considering Margaret Beaufort was so physically damaged by her pregnancy and birth at much too early an age that she could never have any more children, she is not a good example. It was decried at the time that her husband could not respect the convention and wait until she was "large" enough to have children, and gave the Tudors (amd Welsh) a bad reputation, until, of course, her descendants rewrote most of history to their likely, often ignoring the facts, a common occurrence by new administrations.

CE Wood

[Peter Stewart]

On 31/12/2016 1:32 PM, deca...@aol.com wrote:
>> Considering Margaret Beaufort was so physically damaged by her pregnancy and birth at much too early an age that she could never have any more children, she is not a good example. It was decried at the time that her husband could not respect the convention and wait until she was "large" enough to have children, and gave the Tudors (amd Welsh) a bad reputation, until, of course, her descendants rewrote most of history to their likely, often ignoring the facts, a common occurrence by new administrations.
>

> Margaret Beaufort was only used as an example to show the biological possibility. There are other examples in medieval history of women who began childbearing in their early teenage years and actually went on to have two or more additional children.
>
> The following are other examples of women who married and bore children in their early teenage years from medieval history:
>
> - Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married at 13 years of age (1350), and was 14 years old when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).
>
> - Theodora Comnena was 13 years old when she married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).

Theodora did not bear children in her early teenage years - her marriage
to Baldwin was childless though she is supposed (without definite proof)
to have had two children in her 20s to her father's cousin Andronikos I.
> Agnes of France was 12 years old when she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).

This example also does not meet your criterion of childbearing in early
teenage years: Agnes was a widow aged 12 when she married Andronikos I
late in 1183, not in 1182 - at the time of her first marriage, to
Alexios II in March 1180, she was only 7 or 8 years old. She had no
children to either of these husbands. She was in her 20s when her
daughter by a third husband, Theodoros Branas, was born.

Peter Stewart

[deca...@aol.com]

Margaret Beaufort was only used as an example to show the biological possibility. There are other examples in medieval history of women who began childbearing in their early teenage years and actually went on to have two or more additional children.

The following are other examples of women who married and bore children in their early teenage years from medieval history:

- Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married at 13 years of age (1350), and was 14 years old when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).

- St Elizabeth of Portugal was 12 years old when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.

- Caterina Sforza was betrothed at 9 years old and married at 14 years old, and then gave birth at 15 years of age.

- Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband at 13 years old and bore a son within a few years.

and

- Beatrice d'Este was betrothed at 5 years old and was married at 15 years of age.

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

This comes from someone who hasn't worked on the specific Bonville-Grenville issue, but I've found that generally when these sorts of arithmetical and hypothetical gymnastics are required simply to keep a hypothesis on the table, it's highly unlikely to be correct. Even allowing for fifteenth-century child brides I don't think that Philippa as daughter of William stands as a hypothesis, much less as a viable or readily acceptable theory. Surely it would be more productive to look elsewhere in the Bonville family?

All the best,
Kelsey

[deca...@aol.com]

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 4:43:54 AM UTC-5, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> This comes from someone who hasn't worked on the specific Bonville-Grenville issue, but I've found that generally when these sorts of arithmetical and hypothetical gymnastics are required simply to keep a hypothesis on the table, it's highly unlikely to be correct. Even allowing for fifteenth-century child brides I don't think that Philippa as daughter of William stands as a hypothesis, much less as a viable or readily acceptable theory. Surely it would be more productive to look elsewhere in the Bonville family?
>

Please share your theory and/or hypothesis of where else to look within the Bonville family.

[D. Spencer Hines]

I certainly have not seen any convincing argument and evidence in this
thread to prove that Philippa Bonville [ca. 1395, Stowe, Cornwall-1465] was
*not* the *daughter* of Sir John Bonville of Chute [ca. 1371-21 Oct 1396]
and Elizabeth FitzRoger, Heiress of Chewton [25 Aug 1370-15 Apr 1414]...

...And younger *sister* of William Bonville [ca. 1393-1461], 1st Lord
Bonville K.G.

The dates can certainly be argued about and the devil is in the details.
---------------------

There is a lot of opining in the thread -- but little proof.

Can anyone here provide a coherent, structured argument as to why the above
just cannot be so?

Thank You.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

[deca...@aol.com]

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 7:43:53 PM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> I certainly have not seen any convincing argument and evidence in this
> thread to prove that Philippa Bonville [ca. 1395, Stowe, Cornwall-1465] was
> *not* the *daughter* of Sir John Bonville of Chute [ca. 1371-21 Oct 1396]
> and Elizabeth FitzRoger, Heiress of Chewton [25 Aug 1370-15 Apr 1414]...
>
> ...And younger *sister* of William Bonville [ca. 1393-1461], 1st Lord
> Bonville K.G.
>
> The dates can certainly be argued about and the devil is in the details.
> ---------------------
>
> There is a lot of opining in the thread -- but little proof.
>
> Can anyone here provide a coherent, structured argument as to why the above
> just cannot be so?
>

I can't recall ever seeing in any thread the argument proving why the theory that Philippa Bonville was a daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger is the most probable scenario. Especially given the tight chronology of fitting in Philippa Bonville in between the years of 1393 and 1396, when all three of John Bonville's and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger's known children were born; William, 1st Lord Bonville (b.1393), Thomas Bonville (b.1395), and Isabel Bonville (b.1396/1397).

I would also like to see the coherent, structured argument as to why Philippa can only be the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger, when it is a known fact that John Bonville died 21 October 1396 and Philippa Bonville married firstly after 12 May 1427 to William Grenville.

Sure there are dates that can be argued, but you can't argue the date that Philippa was born if she were the daughter of John Bonville. She could not have been born any later than summer 1397. If she were the daughter of Lord Bonville, then she could not have been born any sooner than autumn 1415. And lastly, you can't argue the date that she married William Grenville, which had to have occurred after 12 May 1427.

It might come down to whose opinion/conclusion should be given the greatest weight in deciding who to accept as the parents of Philippa Bonville in the absence of primary sources. Is it Sir William Pole, Sir Bernard Grenville, Roger Granville, Charles Fitch-Northen, J.S. Roskell, or Douglas Richardson?

[D. Spencer Hines]

More assertions -- sans a shred of credible proof.

Pinning gnat's-arse birthdates on these mediaeval players is totally
unprofessional. For example; vide infra:

"The Bonvilles were an old West Country family. The date of William
Bonville's birth is uncertain. Cokayne states that he was born 30 August
1393, while Richardson states that various documents indicate he was four
years of age in 1397, 16 years of age in 1408, and 21 years of age in
1414.[2] He was born at Shute, Devon, the son of Sir John Bonville (c.
1371 - 21 October 1396), son and heir apparent of Sir William Bonville (c.
1332 - February 1408) of Shute by his first wife, Margaret D'Aumarle (died
25 May 1399),[3] the daughter of Sir William D'Aumarle.[4"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bonville,_1st_Baron_Bonville#Marriages_and_children

Or this:

"There are three possible birth dates for William Bonville, 12 Aug. 1391, 30
Sep. 1391, and 31 Aug. 1392. CP, ii. 218-19 is incorrect in giving
Bonville's date of birth as 30 Aug. 1393."

https://www.geni.com/people/William-Bonville-KG-1st-Baron-Bonville/6000000006444270729

[So, if this is accurate, Douglas Richardson's alleged data would yield
birthdates for William of both 1392 and 1393 -- certainly not the
gnat's-arse birthdate of Cokayne's 30 Aug 1393. *However* -- we also have
12 Aug. 1391, 30 Sep. 1391, and 31 Aug. 1392. Take your pick. With two you
get eggroll.]

We can also rest assured other relevant dates for other players are equally
imprecise and fluttering -- in the absence of solid proof.

I'm not arguing that Philippa Bonville *must* be the daughter of John, and
never have. I'm simply saying these doggedly absolutist statements that she
cannot *possibly* be his daughter have not been backed up with evidence and
proof of same. Probative Exclusionary Evidence. Just playing games with
inherently inexact dates doesn't cut the mustard.

Further, methinks there may be some Grand Ulterior Motive Action going on
here -- perhaps in order to carve out a descent from Edward I and Eleanor of
Castile for Philippa, if one can *prove* she was the daughter of William,
1st Lord Bonville AND Margaret Grey -- rather than just William's sister.

Proof to date -- in these precincts -- is absent Watson.

Richardson may have the proof.

And no, I'm not insisting someone must "prove a negative" -- which, as we
all *should* know, is not playing by sound rules of logic, right reason and
good sense.

Au contraire, I'm simply asking for proof that the preponderance of evidence
is clearly on the judgment that Philippa is the daughter of William [or
someone else] rather than John.

If it exists, bring it on.

DSH

-----------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

wrote in message
news:97df8471-0170-40ad...@googlegroups.com...

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 7:43:53 PM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:

> I certainly have not seen any convincing argument and evidence in this
> thread to prove that Philippa Bonville [ca. 1395, Stowe, Cornwall-1465]
> was *not* the *daughter* of Sir John Bonville of Chute [ca. 1371-21 Oct
> 1396] and Elizabeth FitzRoger, Heiress of Chewton [25 Aug 1370-15 Apr
> 1414]...
>
> ...And younger *sister* of William Bonville [ca. 1393-1461], 1st Lord
> Bonville K.G.
>
> The dates can certainly be argued about and the devil is in the details.
> ---------------------
>
> There is a lot of opining in the thread -- but little proof.
>
> Can anyone here provide a coherent, structured argument as to why the
> above just cannot be so?

I can't recall ever seeing in any thread the argument proving why the theory
that Philippa Bonville was a daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth
Fitz-Roger is the most probable scenario. Especially given the tight

chronology of fitting in Philippa Bonville in between the years of 1993
[sic] and 1996 [sic], when all three of John Bonville's and Elizabeth
Fitz-Roger's three known children were born; William, 1st Lord Bonville
(b.1392/1393), Thomas Bonville (b.1395), and Isabel Bonville (b.1396/1397).

I would also like to see the coherent, structured argument as to why
Philippa can only be the daughter of John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger,
when it is a known fact that John Bonville died 21 October 1396 and Philippa
Bonville married firstly after 12 May 1427 to William Grenville.

Sure there are dates that can be argued, but you can't argue the date that
Philippa was born if she were the daughter of John Bonville. She could not
have been born any later than summer 1397. If she were the daughter of Lord
Bonville, then she could not have been born any sooner than autumn 1415.
And lastly, you can't argue the date that she married William Grenville,
which had to have occurred after 12 May 1427.

It might come down to whose opinion/conclusion should be given the greatest

weight in deciding who to accept as the parents of Philippa Bonville. Is it

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Spencer is right that chronological fine-tuning is not the best way to approach this problem. Looking back at the 2001 discussion, it seems worthwhile identifying the pieces of contemporary or near-contemporary evidence upon which these theories have been based:

1. There are two panels of apparently fifteenth-century armorial stained glass in the parish church at Petrockstowe which include Bonville impaled with Grenville.

There are pictures of these panels here: http://www.yeosociety.com/heraldry/yeo%20evidence.htm . It looks to me as if some more careful attention to the identification of the other arms which appear alongside the Bonville-Grenville pairing might be productive.

2. The nineteenth-century _History of the Granville Family_, pp. 56-57, states that the manors of Week St. Mary and Swannacote in the hundred of Stratton, Cornwall, were owned by Lord Bonville and subsequently by the Grenvilles. If this is at all true, there's a reasonable chance that IPMs or other documents could be located which might clarify how the lands passed between the two families.

For the _History_ see: https://archive.org/stream/historyofgranvil00gran#page/n81/mode/2up

3. The 1620 Visitation of Cornwall, pp. 84ff., includes a lengthy - and apparently quite problematic - pedigree of the Grenvilles. The relevant generation is given as "Willm. Grenvile Brother and hey. to Sr John temp. H. IV." = "Phillip sist' to the Lo. Bondvile".

https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00sain#page/84/mode/2up

This same visitation contains a frontispiece facsimile of an elaborately quartered Grenville coat which appeared in the original visitation manuscript together with identifications of most of the coats at p. x. Working out the logic of these quarterings would also seem to be useful, and the absence of Bonville from the quarterings would seem to suggest in addition that Philippa, whoever her parents were, wasn't recognised as an heiress, at least not in the early seventeenth century.

As far as I can see, there appears to be reasonably good evidence - though not beyond doubt - that Philippa was a Bonville and I wonder if following up the Cornish manors allegedly owned first by Bonvilles and later by Grenvilles might clarify the question of her parents.

All the best,
Kelsey

[deca...@aol.com]

Maybe since both Holmes and Watson agree that the proof is absent in these precincts, Douglas Richardson may weigh in at some point.

[jessic...@yahoo.co.uk]

As a descendant of these families via YEO I am fascinated to read these discussions. When I joined this group back last summer I did ask about this subject but nothing was said, so thanks to Joe for getting the discussion going again and to all of you for your input.

[deca...@aol.com]

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 4:01:37 AM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> Further, methinks there may be some Grand Ulterior Motive Action going on
> here -- perhaps in order to carve out a descent from Edward I and Eleanor of
> Castile for Philippa, if one can *prove* she was the daughter of William,
> 1st Lord Bonville AND Margaret Grey -- rather than just William's sister.
>

Why would there be a "Grand Ulterior Motive" regardless of whether or not Philippa were the daughter of John Bonville, William, Lord Bonville, or even Thomas Bonville? With these three Bonville men being the leading candidates for father of Philippa Bonville.

That is because both John Bonville and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger have proven royal pedigrees. John Bonville having a descent from a Norman King of England and Elizabeth Fitz-Roger from a Plantagenet King of England. So, there is no basis for a statement claiming ulterior motives for a royal descent based upon the above paternal candidates!

The point of this whole thread is to get as close as possible to the factual truth of who were the actual parents of Philippa Bonville, given the prevailing evidence!

[D. Spencer Hines]

Perchance...

The game's afoot, Watson.

DSH
------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

wrote in message

news:d21fba85-66ca-4282...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

SGM has always had interesting, provocative -- and oft mysterious -- tidal
rhythms.

Stimulations are possible -- but not always productive.

Her very name is helpful...

Philippa Bonville...

It has resonance, sensuality and even a rather cinematic "modern" feel to
it.

DSH
----------------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

wrote in message

news:dce7bd15-93ec-40a4...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

Rank Ignorance...

Any genealogical tyro should know that a descent from Edward I is better
than one from Henry II -- Edward's great-grandfather.

Stop taking stupid pills...

And with Leonor de Castilla one gets all those lovely Spanish and French
Ancestors -- plus gazpacho, paella, patatas bravas and crema catalana-- or
even pulpo a la gallega, if one were to prefer.

John 5:14.

DSH
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963
wrote in message

news:57ec82f2-b3f8-4e48...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

"I don't see how your riddled English and assertions adds [sic] anything
credible to this thread besides your own dose of stupid pills!"

...And he's ungrammatical too.

Game Over.

Date-Mongering bites the dust once again.

DSH

----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

wrote in message

news:bb1b30ce-4d2b-4bc3...@googlegroups.com...

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:

> Rank Ignorance...
>
> Any genealogical tyro should know that a descent from Edward I is better
> than one from Henry II -- Edward's great-grandfather.
>
> Stop taking stupid pills...
>
> And with Leonor de Castilla one gets all those lovely Spanish and French
> Ancestors -- plus gazpacho, paella, patatas bravas and crema catalana-- or
> even pulpo a la gallega, if one were to prefer.
>
> John 5:14.
>
> DSH
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see how your riddled English and assertions adds anything credible
to this thread besides your own dose of stupid pills!

[deca...@aol.com]

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 1:07:07 PM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> "I don't see how your riddled English and assertions adds [sic] anything
> credible to this thread besides your own dose of stupid pills!"
>
> ...And he's ungrammatical too.
>
> Game Over.
>
> Date-Mongering bites the dust once again.
>
> DSH
> ----------------------------------------------------

Did you ever get your autographed, engraved, gratis, copy of PA3 from Douglas Richardson yet? I understand you have had nothing but kind/flattering words for him in the past as well!

[deca...@aol.com]

> On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-5, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
> > Rank Ignorance...
> >
> > Any genealogical tyro should know that a descent from Edward I is better
> > than one from Henry II -- Edward's great-grandfather.
> >
> > Stop taking stupid pills...
> >
> > And with Leonor de Castilla one gets all those lovely Spanish and French
> > Ancestors -- plus gazpacho, paella, patatas bravas and crema catalana-- or
> > even pulpo a la gallega, if one were to prefer.
> >
> > John 5:14.
> >
> > DSH
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------

I think I will heed the advice of Douglas Richardson below with regard to SGM's good friend, D. Spencer Hines.

Richardson's exact words are:

"I think it would be wise if posters on the newsgroup didn't twist
words so far out of their meaning as to become unrecognizable.
Spencer has gotten very abusive and I hope the newsgroup listowners
will deal with this problem. His recent series of posts have made no
sense whatsoever.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah"

[D. Spencer Hines]

Spot On.

DSH
----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"Kelsey Jackson Williams" wrote in message
news:ea2d1123-e7e5-450c...@googlegroups.com...

[deca...@aol.com]

I thought SGM had dealt with the troll (D. Spencer Hines / aka DSH) years ago and that he also died. Now, whoever is posting under the name D. Spencer Hines is an impostor.

The below post to SGM back in 2002 seems to confirm that the real D. Spencer Hines of Hawaii passed away and subsequent posts to SGM by that name are from an impostor!

> From: "Roy Stockdill" (r...@stockdillfhs.org.uk)
> Subject: RIP D. Spencer Hines View:
> Original FormatNewsgroups: soc.genealogy.britain
> Date: 2002-12-19 12:47:37 PST
> THE passing has been announced in Hawaii of D. Spencer Hines, once
> described by someone whose name escapes me for the moment as "the
> greatest medieval genealogist of our time." It would, of course, be
> insufficient tribute to say that D. Spencer Hines was the Greatest
> Living Genealogist of the 20th and early 21st Century. Indeed, it
> would be a pathetic, maudlin lie.
>
> Descendant of Charlemagne and the Norse storm-god Woden, 29-times
> great-grandson of Lady Godiva, world welterweight dwarf-tossing
> champion, first lady Prime Minister of Outer Mongolia, chicken
> sexer-in-chief to Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall,
> Right Honourable Underwear Sniffer to Camilla Parker Bowles, editor
> of the Alternative Burkes' Peerage published by the Family History
> Society of Stoke Poges, runner-up three years in succession in the
> Small Brain Championship of the Outer Hebrides - D. Spencer Hines was
> none of these things, though he aspired to them all.
>
> A direct decendant of Gordon the Flatulent of Normandy, chief scribe
> and toenail cutter to William the Conqueror, and Hardrada of the
> Hairy Nose of the Norwegian office of the Baltic Condensed Milk
> Company, Impotence Street, Oslo (ref: see the Genbrit archives),
> D. Spencer Hines came into the world in a bar in Louisville,
> Kentucky, where his father was the under-barman and his mother was
> frequently under the customers. A rebel from an early age, he
> attended the local high school but was expelled for exceptional
> stupidity well beyond the call of duty. He subsequently went to
> Harvard - on a day trip - and was asked never to darken that
> particular door again. He joined the US Forces in Vietnam and fought
> with outstanding bravery in the front line, arranging weekend
> cottages for debilitated GIs who wanted to shack up for a couple of
> days with their Chinese girlfriends.
>
> Leaving the service of Uncle Sam, he turned his endless and
> inexhaustibly fertile talents to researching his family history and
> genealogical descent from the royal family of Britain. It is believed
> that Queen Elizabeth II herself encouraged him to do this when she
> met him during a royal visit to Ulan Bator, where he was running an
> academy for the moral guidance of defrocked Mongolian bank managers
> at the time. Gripping him by the left arm, HM declared: "Cuz Spence,
> you must do it for the family!" From then on, he devoted all his
> waking time to tracing his ancestry from Peter the Petulant of the
> Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the Maharaja of Stoke Poges, and Gladwys
> the Gullible of Gwent. When he published his researches into these
> genealogical connections it caused a literary sensation, selling 3
> copies in Harrods in 15 and a half years, all to his mother.
>
> In later life, D Spencer Hines retired to the relative obscurity of
> Hawaii, where awestruck natives often referred to him as "He Who
> Walks On Water and Sometimes Fall In". From his mountain-top eyrie he
> fired off a barrage of genealogical wisdom around the world, using
> the new facility of the Internet. He was regarded by all who came
> into contact with him as the Father of Medieval Genealogy, a title
> self bestowed and which was affixed to his front door, along with a
> notice saying "Just one pint today, please milkman."
>
> The funeral was at sea and nobody came.
>
>Roy Stockdill (Editor, Journal of One-Name Studies)
>Guild of One-Name Studies:- www.one-name.org
>Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:- >www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html
>-------
>Michael W Cook

Fair winds and following seas to the real D. Spencer Hines!

[CE Wood]

And that post doesn't sound phony? Perhaps he is, and perhaps some people simply wish he were. Perhaps, as Mark Twain's said, "The report of my death was an exaggeration.” I don't know, but that post you quoted seems bogus. Death certificate, anyone?

CE Wood